Veterans days always make me feel weird.

[Jackpine Radical]

(Reprise)

Especially when someone says "Thank you for your service." You see, I was an infantryman in Vietnam, but I did not serve willingly. I was drafted, forced into a deadly form of involuntary servitude, and whatever illusions I might originally have had about the rightness of the war were quickly torn from me when I saw what we were doing to the innocent people, the sacred soils, the beautiful waters and jungles and mountains of that tormented land.

"No, don't thank me," I want to say. "Forgive me. Forgive me for participating in that awful event in your name. If you must thank me for something, then thank me for joining the movement to stop the war when I got home. Maybe thank me for the things I have tried to do for the castoffs of society--the mentally ill, the developmentally disabled, the emotionally damaged products of chaotic and abusive homes who have gone on to fill our jails and prisons. But don't thank me for going off to participate in the destruction of a foreign land whose residents never intended any harm to you or me."

[asdjrocky]

1. It's all we know how to say dude.

I've heard the same sentiment from my brother, who also severed there, drafted in the infantry. Sometimes I think I should just tell him sorry.

[demosincebirth]

3. I was RA

[Winterblues]

18. I was US and I wish to apologize to America for participating in the atrocity we know of as Vietnam.

I once was asked by my kids school to come and talk on Veteran's Day, and I told them I could not do so because it was something I was not proud of at all..

[demosincebirth]

53. What can I say?

[gateley]

4. Yes - that's what I think I'll tell veterans from now on -- I'm sorry our country

did this to you.

[gateley]

2. Thought provoking -- I think I would probably feel the same. Thank you for

joining the anti-war movement when you came home. You're a true patriot, wanting what's best for our country and the people. :patriot: :pals:

[ZombieHorde]

5. Recommended. nt

[w8liftinglady]

6. Bro..all I can say is..Thanks for looking after my dad,my uncle,my partner

There are things that can't be undone.

Thank you for seeing to it that my dad got home safely...he WASN"T drafted,but spent 8 years in Thailand,Laos,vietnam...and Not cambodia.
thank you for befriending my uncle-who was drafted..the only male in the family...scared shitless Italian tough guy.You helped save his sanity.He has joined veterans for peace in cali,married a laotian woman...and is finally happy.
Thank you for helping my partner get out of Vietnam,Thailand,Laos and not Cambodia in one piece.he was a dog handler and MP who guarded my dad in the same places.he doesn't talk about it much.

Thank you for passing that need on to others...the need to help...the need to heal.

A touch,a hug from a grateful daughter,niece,partner.
Thank you for helping me,too.
peace.
beth

[iamjoy]

7. How About All of Them

It doesn't matter that your service was "involuntary." I mean, you could have gone to Canada (not that's my place to judge the people who did that).

It's not like WWII veterans - I most likely wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for their service and sacrifice. Vietnam was a stupid and wrong war, but maybe at the time a lot of people didn't realize it.

No, I can't justify it. I can't even explain it other than I'm not one to blame the infantryman at the "bottom" for the crimes and sins at the top.

:hippie:

:patriot:

[whathehell]

8. I feel truly thankful for the World War II Veterans...and somewhat indebted

and respectful to the veterans of other wars for, at very least, their courage in putting their lives on the line.

I saw an interesting sign during the height of the Iraq War that might sum up my feelings in many cases: Proud of Our Soldiers, Ashamed of our Government.

[Ginto]

21. I don't. I don't feel thankful for the start of the atomic age.

Or the targeting of civilians.

[whathehell]

27. What was the alternative?

Japan was warned three times.:eyes:

[Ginto]

38. To fight with conventional weapons.

To not unleash that horror on mankind. To be better than our enemies.

[kick-ass-bob]

40. so it was better to do it the slow and "humane" way.

By invading, carpet bombing and slitting throats instead?

Both ways are horrible. One no better than the other.

[Ginto]

43. Apparently you are not familiar with radiation poisoning.

Or the horror and fear that atomic weapons have caused in the world since then. We should have targeted their military and found with conventional weapons.

[whathehell]

45. I understand your point and you might be correct

I, too, think the nuclear bomb is probably man's most horrible invention...But that is hindsight.

The alternative you present was seen, at the time, as losing tens of thousands, if not a hundred thousand plus American lives.

[Zanzobar]

54. Nukes don't compare to cigarettes and alcohol

Nukes may do it quicker, but voluntary stupitude will strike down more people than willful evil can hope to imagine.

[kick-ass-bob]

32. You think that was the first time civilians were targeted?

Wow.

Non targeting of civilians is a very VERY recent phenomenon. Throughout history, entire villages and cities were burned, women raped, and children captured and enslaved.

Even in WWII (before the atomic age) German planes bombed London, and guess what? They didn't have smart bombs. Neither did we. Carpet bombing was everywhere, and civilians died. In fact, the first war I can think of that civilians were NOT targeted was in the Gulf War (1991).

[Ginto]

39. Does not mean I have to be thankful for it. nt

[kick-ass-bob]

41. but you linked the two together.

No one is thankful for war. But I am thankful that they fought against oppression.

[Mhak]

9. Times change...

When someone thanks you for your service today, they're connecting your service with what's happening today, not what happened four decades ago. People aren't necessarily thanking you for your actions.
Vietnam was a terrible thing, my father was there too and after 23 years on this green earth he's never spoken a word to me about his experiences there. And I never asked him a second time. But he, like you, did what was asked of him and bears that heavy burden with a silent strength not common in our species. It doesn't mean he's proud of what he did, it doesn't mean he wanted it to happen, but it happened and he did the best he could in that terrible situation. Merely surviving that deserves respect.

I guess what I'm saying is that even though a cause may be unrighteous or unjust, doesn't mean you don't deserve the respect for being thrown into that situation and doing your best to keep yourself and the men next to you alive, so you could all come home and see your family again. You weren't one of the politicians that decided to send you there. They deserve the blame you're putting on yourself. You did your time and came back to help stop the war using your own experiences as ammunition. If anything, your service helped your endeavors of striving for peace. You should give yourself at least that much credit.

[Bigmack]

10. This country makes too damn many veterans!...nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. +1

[amerikat]

11. You are forgiven. Veterans day is a day of confusion for me.

My folks before me fought in wars. If none of thier sons or daughters
will fight no more forever it will be a great human victory for all of us

I have never fought a war, I have fought in protest against war. We all do the best we can. I thank you for your honesty about war and not for your service to them.

[bobbolink]

12. Very well and courageously said.

I hope you can use your experience and your well-formed thoughts to speak to young people about war.

They need to hear from people like you.

If I may..... :patriot:

[cynatnite]

13. I volunteered and I feel weird, too...

To me it wasn't that big of a deal to serve. I was fortunate, however. I did not have to serve in any war or face combat at all. My husband has twice. Even though he volunteered as well, he doesn't like being told "thank you" either. He's very conflicted about his service and I've been hesitant to get him to discuss it. Maybe someday.

I do think every service member who has had to fight, whether by their choice or not, deserves respect. Maybe not a thank you, but I believe acknowledging your sacrifice along with with others is something we are all obligated to do.

[texanwitch]

14. I feel the same.

I joined the Army because I was bored and wanted to travel.

I did my 4 years and got out.

I had a good time for the most part, hope I didn't do any harm.

I don't really talk about being a vet to much.

[HillbillyBob]

15. I have felt for a long time that our service folks were poorly used

as in you were misused by the powers that be.
You and the young folks sent to the Mideast now should not be used so.
You volunteered or not were our Defense Force not to be Offensive Force.
I volunteered for service too, I wasn't sent on active duty, but could have been. Time and distance have changed my outlook since then.
Defending our country against aggression is a good thing, sending our young folks to kill and die in ideological or wars of aggression are not..

[Bigmack]

16. Proud I was a Marine...

ashamed of what my country did with my service.

Is that conflicted enough for you.

Kennedy asked me what I was going to do for my country. My bad... I thought I was going to go after the bad guys. Young and dumb. All I did was rough up and kill brown people to protect... what?... capitalism? If I knew then what I know now...

My two favorite Marines said it best..

`I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.' –
Gen. David Shoup, United States Marine Commandant Medal of Honor recipient. 2 Purple Hearts (Gen Shoup was my commandant during the first part of my time in.)

“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.
“I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.”
Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC two time Medal of Honor recipient. 8 Purple Hearts

[Jackpine Radical]

17. I knew of Butler's writings, but not Shoup.

I recognize Shoup's name, but had no idea of his positions.

[UTUSN]

20. You said it for me. When I say it to live people, I get shocked responses.

I *did* volunteer but for the reasons that a vast majority do, because of economic necessity, as Charlie RANGEL said when he was my long time hero.

When the fake Iraq Attack was being ginned up and there was that jingoistic chickenhawk fervor going on, one of the young chickenhawks came up to me and said the "Thank you for your service" thing, and I said, "Oh, it was nothing, and he said yes-it-is, and I said no-it-wasn't and he became hostile. What I object to is that at least SOME of the time (I can't put a number/percentage to it) the ones who use it are wingnuts and chickenhawks, not from guilt about not serving because usually wingnuts/chickenhawks don't have much guilt, but probably from better-you-than-me.

And, yes, I have been told here at DU that I could try to be gracious and just say thank-you. I do sometimes, when I sense sincerity.

Also problematical for me is that I am proud of my 4 yrs' in the military (I'm not using the "service" word) and I wear my dogtags on a nice, plain, stainless steel little chain outside my shirt, and wear a ballcap with one of my ships and "Vietnam Vet" on it, and wear a windbreaker with U.S. Navy on it or one with VFW on it, the problem being that these things TRIGGER the thank-you-for-your-service thing. I would like to wear these things without the comments, just for the meaning they have FOR ME. Somebody said wearing the stuff is ASKING for the attention. But most of the time my GRUFF expression deflects unwanted advances, haha.

A lot of times over the years, I would get away from the vets holidays and observances.

[MattSh]

22. Agreed.

I was in the Army 1974-1977, so I saw no combat, or anything close to a hostile situation. Yet this "Thank you for your service" bugs the hell out of me too.

I remember my second day in South Korea, during in-country orientation, when some brass told us "You're here to protect democracy in South Korea". I smelled bullshit right away. South Korea in those days was nothing close to democratic. Yet I can say they have made great progress since then. But for every step forward South Korea has taken, the USA has taken ten steps back. And they really are facing a hostile enemy. What the hell is our excuse?

So if someone from South Korea came up to me and said "Thank you for your service" I would reply "I was glad I could help in some small way". But when an American says it, I would probably smell the same bullshit I smelt many years ago in Korea. Because my service in no way helped to protect America or it's democracy. It probably helped the USA get one step closer to the mess it's in today.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. K&R

[Brewman_Jax]

24. I understand

I feel the same. I am a veteran, too, but not for patriotic reasons, but, like many, economic. The Navy paid for my college education. I didn't have to drop out, because of money, and I didn't have crushing debt waiting for me when I graduated. Just 6 years of duty. I didn't see combat, but my brother was in theatre for Gulf War I.

It's too hard to put into words, but, to me, being a veteran should be more than "Thank you for your service," and free meals at various restaurants. It should have meaning, it should feel good. For me, it doesn't, it just is. History, esp. recent history, isn't very kind.

Like a sig line said--A country that can't take care of its veterans shouldn't be allowed to create more.

P.S. This was harder to write than I thought.

[felix_numinous]

25. Thank you for sharing your experiences,

I feel conflicted too, not being a vet. Thank you is all I can say sometimes, when I wish I could express my sadness at how they are being treated, sadness at them not having more of a voice, and for having to endure all of the after effects. I consider it a privilege when someone wishes to share a personal story, because not everyone wishes to talk, so many vets' experiences seem beyond words.

[sadbear]

26. Ask a right-winger if they honor John Kerry's service today

That's all you need to know about Veteran's Day.

[whathehell]

29. Veteran's Day is all about right wingers?

Coulda fooled me.:eyes:

[arbusto_baboso]

31. The point he was trying to make is that to a rightie, you have to be "the right kind" of veteran.

And obviously, if one is anti-war, they aren't the "right kind".

[whathehell]

33. I understand...but when

you say "that's all you need to know about Veteran's Day" then one is saying that it's only Right Wingers who "count".

[arbusto_baboso]

35. I think you're misinterpreting this poster.

Perhaps deliberately so, just to get yourself a self-righteous rage-on.

[whathehell]

46. Perhaps

the poster didn't communicate clearly...Perhaps I have not communicated clearly since, I'm working on three hours sleep.

But there is no "deliberation" in this..and I'm honestly not "enraged"..self-righteously or otherwise.

Peace at ya:hippie:

[BoneDaddy]

28. Thanks for your courage

and your service and your ability to come back and find some wholeness. Time to let it go man.

[arbusto_baboso]

30. I feel similarly to you, and I was an officer during ODS.

It was in Saudi and Kuwait that I realized that we weren't fighting to defend anyone or anything but the oil apparatus.

We didn't kill a million Vietnamese, but we then again we were in the ME for a much shorter period. In deaths per day, though, I think we probably killed even more people than you 'Nam vets did.

[TexasObserver]

34. Yeah, I get that feeling, too.

It's good to be remembered as a veteran, but ultimately, it's become a "rally round the flag" and glorification of wars holiday.

I prefer Memorial Day, which also has negative elements, but at least is about those who died in wars.

War is a killer, and it hurts both sides. It can't always be avoided, but our wars of choice are the new template in this century.

[Major Hogwash]

44. Well said.

We're in the age of "the endless wars".
Going on 10 years in Afghanistan, and for what?

And Iraq is far from over.
And we're using drones to bomb Pakistan.
So, how long before they drop all the pretense and go after Iran?

You know what makes me puke?
McCain is in Afghanistan today, speechifying as if he is the President.
It absolutely astounds me how bad of a fucking dickhead McCain is, and yet there he is, giving a gawd damn speech to the troops to use as a photo op.

In all the time I served I never had to listen to some cocksucking asshole of a Senator give us a speech.
Never.
Not even 1 fucking time!!!

This country is so FUCKED UP!

[TexasObserver]

51. If we want to honor vets, we should take care of their needs.

I'm appalled with the number of vet suicides, the number of vets homeless, and with the way men and women with serious conditions are being treated like slackers instead of vets who earned the right to given appropriate care, as promised.

[w8liftinglady]

55. you and me both.

It angers me beyond belief.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. The only thing that comes up for me on Veteran's Day are the ones still unhealed in some way

And the promises our government failed to keep even as it glorifies war.

[Arugula Latte]

37. Me too.

To me it perpetuates the mindset that all wars are good wars and all soldiers are "fighting to defend the USA."

In reality, we are usually the aggressors, the wars are unjust, and the motivation is corporate hegemony. On the other hand, that's not the fault of the soldiers, many of whom pay a terrible, terrible price.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. 4 infinitely long years of doing absolutely nothing of benefit to anyone.

Although I guess the MIC profited from my boredom.

[AlabamaLibrul]

47. My father had PTSD when he came back from 'Nam. Eventually, his heart disintegrated on the OR table.

Thank you for seeing war as what it is. You're a much stronger and better patriot than those who "serve" in Bush's war now.

[Bucky]

48. Thank you for your coerced imperfections. But more than that...

thank you for learning the lessons of history and having the integrity to see with clear eyes.


As another veteran once said, "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." That's from General Carl Schurz. He was one of the good guys. It sure sounds like you're one, too.

[Coventina]

49. My personal opinion, and no disrespct toward ANY veteran:

I think we should return Nov. 11th to "Armistice Day" as it was previously and is still known in Europe. It's a day that marks the beginning of peace. A beginning of peace at the end of one of the world's greatest insanities.

I think that by changing it to "Veterans' Day" was intended to be more inclusive and a nice gesture, but the end result is a subtle change of meaning. Honoring soldiers can slip into honoring war, honoring conflict.

I'm not a complete pacifist, I believe a military is necessary in an imperfect world and that being a soldier can be an honorable choice and way to serve humanity, again in an imperfect world.

But having a day honoring the end of hostilities I think is something that the vast majority of men and women who have served can support and feel good about.

Just my two cents....

[Lilith Velkor]

50. THANK YOU for this post.

I had to get the fuck off Facebook today because of Veteran's Day crap.

[proud patriot]

52. I thank you and forgive you

:hug: