Does one have to reject the notion of free will completely to be a liberal?

[howard112211]

I wonder, because it seems like this is how liberalism vs. conservatism is traditionally framed: The conservative emphasizes the importance of individual choices, while the liberal emphasizes the conditions under which those decisions were made.

I am torn on this because I consider myself a liberal, but I do have a strong belief in the free will of the individual. I consider myself liberal because I think society should work to ensure that making the right choices as easy as possible. I believe in free (in the sense of taxpayer funded) health care from craddle to grave, free education all the way through grad school, a decent safety net for the case of unemployment, labor unions, freedom to marry whoever one wants and freedom to make reproductive choices.

At the same time, I do believe that we carry the full burden of responsibility for the choices we make, and should not expect a free pass for any of them. I also believe that choices of some sort always exist, even under extreme circumstances. Take for instance a case where one is in a situation where one thinks one has to steal to survive or feed ones family. There are choices: Do I rob a store in the middle of the night when I expect no people to be present or do I rob it in the middle of the day where uninvolved people may be around? Do I bring a gun when I break into the store or do I not? Likewise, consider a case where factory workers are going on strike. An individual might think "well, I have to feed my family so I am going to work anyway". However, others are in the same situation as well, so ultimately, siding with the union or breaking the strike is a choice. A strong union would ensure that everyone's family gets fed. Likewise, if it is only about ones own survival, some people choose to perish rather than kill to survive.

I believe in free will philosophically (quantum theory and yadda yadda), but also from a pragmatic point of view: I think when people believe they don't have a free will but rather are the victim of circumstance, they are more likely to behave as if they didn't have a free will, and rely on getting a free pass due to circumstance.

So, is my view of things inconsistent with standard liberalism or marxist materialism or what?

[Sherman A1]

1. I think the reverse it more true

one needs to reject free will to become a conservative... They know what is good for all of us and are more than will to tell us, we just need to do what we are told. :banghead:

[mmonk]

13. And by force if necessary as well as exclusion from the process.

[ananda]

2. You bought the twisted conservative lie.

Good grief.

It's conservatives who don't believe in freedom for individuals; it's liberals
who have historically favored freedom and rights for all individuals.

When conservatives gain power, just look at what happens to institutional
oppression with regard to targeted groups whose individuals suffer much
greater loss of freedom and rights. Reproductive choice is compromised
for women, for example, along with wage and right to work laws for
workers and unions. The idea is that women should basically be slaves,
not owning their own bodies; and workers should also basically be either
wage slaves or unemployed.

Conservatives want to control people's bodies and lives to the nth degree.
Liberals want to see people actually able to pursue life, liberty, and happiness
on their own terms. Sometimes that means that government has to intervene
in order to provide a more level playing field and more equal distribution of
wealth, and this is needed in a society where the rich elites and corporations
want so much control over people in order to move money upwards.

[BzaDem]

4. The difference is how both sides perceive freedom. Conservatives believe in economic freedom

where people should keep "the fruits of their own labor" as defined by how much the fruits of their labor are worth to others.

Liberals believe that we have a responsibility to help those in need. Not just because that is the morally correct thing to do, but also because one's wealth is determined significantly by outside circumstances in addition to one's own labor.

[Traveling_Home]

3. ...and then again

The late George Carlin once said that the problem with Pakistan and India having nuclear weapons is: They both believe in reincarnation, so there's no downside risk.

[Swede]

5. Conservatives believe in a strong leader.

They want to be led by this strong leader. Being a leader of liberals is like herding cats. ,

[Bandit]

6. Liberals are Pro Choice and Conservatives are anti-choice.

How could anyone ever see it any other way?

[treestar]

7. No, I don't think it is a matter of free will but of social issues

Conservatives sometimes call us "collectivists" as if there is no collective ever, or where there is, that it is a bad thing. But humans have always banded together, as tribes or nations or clans, and that grouping serves a purpose. Conservatives overlook that the more modern society is the more specialization in each individual's labor, the more that collective matters. We have "free will" as a collective, too , like when we freely decided to attack Afghanistan over 911 - we didn't HAVE to. We just followed Bush into it and that was a national choice.

[My Good Babushka]

8. Is it not also an expression of "free will"

to build a system that works to provide the highest standard of living for all participants? Cooperation is not the opposite of "free will".

[H2O Man]

9. Legalize Lonnie Anderson's hair.

[ipaint]

10. Well if none of this exists-

"I believe in free (in the sense of taxpayer funded) health care from craddle to grave, free education all the way through grad school, a decent safety net for the case of unemployment, labor unions, freedom to marry whoever one wants and freedom to make reproductive choices."

as in the united States today I fail to see where the free choice is for those who are victims of the shit the top 2% dump on them day in and day out. The only people with choices in this country are those with adequate income. The bottom third have no choices considering the movement up in class is practically nil these days.

[gulliver]

11. I don't think "free will" means what you think it means.

You are referring to individual liberty, not the philosophical notion of free will. The idea that liberalism is in any serious opposition to either is completely ridiculous.

[get the red out]

12. No

With freedom comes responsibility, both personal and collective. The Right believes in obedience to iron handed leadership, and that being rich is a demonstration of one's qualification to lead. They also believe that people MUST obey the religious dictates they approve of (except for the leadership of course, who are above that). They believe that one should accept their place and do what they are told.

We believe in making the freedom to prosper available to all, and there is the responsibility for contributing to society as a whole and not just taking what one can take. In a society that takes that responsibility seriously there wouldn't be a need for someone to try to choose the best time to rob a store to feed their family, that's the whole point.

[InvisibleTouch]

14. We do have free will and choices, but...

...we don't always realize we have those choices when we're in a tough situation. I can look back at several key points in my life where I felt forced to take the course I did, very unwillingly and with tremendous negative consequences - but in looking back, I see clearly that I had other options. I had just been coerced by others into believing they didn't exist.

The answer to that is *education*, promoting many different viewpoints and encouraging reading, intellect, and life experiences. Those of us who have "been there," so to speak, can potentially share our insight with those who are struggling and offer fresh ideas and viewpoints - as well as looking to the experiences of others to learn from them. That, to me, is a liberal mindset and completely foreign to conservatism. (With the caveat: offer ideas, don't force viewpoints, and let people make their own choices. We each may think we have the right answer, but it's not necessarily right for the other person.)

[mmonk]

15. The real question today is whether one believes a corporate state

is freedom or not. The rest is name calling to throw you off.