somebody talk me down . . .

[mzteris]

having a discussion on FB with my nephew over the Confederate flag. It's his "heritage and he's proud of being a southerner" and his idiot friends are chiming in.

I'm so upset i'm shaking.

[HuckleB]

1. So he puts more stock in a flag that represented the "south" for less than five years?

Than in the flag that represented the south for 80 some years before that, and has represented the south for nearly 150 years since?

And that, of course, doesn't address the reality. The flag represented an attempt to dissolve the union in order to maintain slavery. It's not a cultural thing that existed before, and the culture of it since is about racism, not the south.

[mzteris]

3. Thank you for that.

I can't think straight right now..

Of course he started with "revolt from a tyrannical union govt" and ended with "The southern states were invaded then occupied by a type of government that we had try to escape from during the revolutionary war."

[HuckleB]

17. Take some time.

It's always good to take time.

I admit that I don't always follow that advice, however.

:toast:

[muntrv]

2. Ask him how he feels about those waving Stars & Bars

were shooting at soldiers waving Stars and Stripes.

[MadMaddie]

4. Ask him if he is proud that his heritage purchased, sold

raped and destroyed families for the sake of labor?

Ask him what does he think a Black person sees when they see the Confederate flag?

What about the formation of the KKK and the terror they reigned?

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/kkk.htm

Has he ever visited a black museum that displays the pictures of the tortured slaves?

Ask him if he has the guts to actually analyze history and understand history.

[mzteris]

14. he doesn't comprehend it

he WANTS to believe the lie that it has nothing to do with "slavery". It's a symbol of PRIDE of being a SOUTHERNER, he says.

He won't see it. He CAN'T afford to "see it" because all of his "friends" are ignorant red-neck @ssholes.

[MadMaddie]

22. That's too bad because one day he will realize those "friends'

are not really friends. Some have to learn the hard way.

Hang in there you have done what you could do.

[elehhhhna]

42. Its' the losers flag. He likes to wave a loser flag? Fine.

Everyone with any sense who sees it will instantly know what he is.

[mike_c]

oh dear....

Take a breath-- no disrespect intended, I have to constantly remind myself too that symbols REALLY can have different meaning for different people. That doesn't blunt their power, but it does make it difficult to have rational conversations. It's just not the sort of argument anyone ever actually wins, and the energy investment can go on for as long as you're willing to pound your head against the wall.

Life's too short. My $0.02.

[elleng]

7. wise, mike.

[mzteris]

16. it might be different, but

my son is African American.

If for no other reason that he is being completely insensitive and offensive to family members, then he should avoid it.

[elleng]

5. First, mzt, breathe; next, think of your 'heritage,' whatever it might be.

(I'm a New Yorker,Brooklyn for my first 8 years, for example, and tend to see things thru that p.o.v., even tho I've been away for many years.) I still think of myself as a Brooklyn Dodger fan, and dislike the Giants, and HATE the Yankees.

So maybe doing so could help you understand/feel where he's coming from.

[HuckleB]

9. This isn't about sports allegiances.

This is about slavery, racism, the KKK, and on and on...

[elleng]

15. Oh really huck, I never even thought about that

:sarcasm:

:thumbsdown:

[HuckleB]

20. Goodness.

You posted what you posted.

:rofl:

[elleng]

23. And you reacted the way you did, entirely off topic imo.

[HuckleB]

24. Yeah, sure, you betcha.

:rofl:

[mzteris]

13. oh I was born and bred a "southerner, too"

I understand where he's coming FROM - but it's time to GROW UP and let the fantasy go about the antebellum south.

I believed the stories handed down by mom about how well HER grandparents treated their slaves. How she grew up with the grandchildren of those slaves who voluntarily stayed on with my grandfather because "Mr. R took such good care of them". . .

I held on to the dichotomy for years and years - trying to "justify" the South's behaviour. I made excuses about the North and how they treated sweatshop women and children - as ifi that were some sort of justification.

But then I took a class (as an adult) on race, class, and gender - and my eyes were opened. We had to write an opinion piece every week on how the topic made us feel and what it made us think. It was the most amazing experience I ever went through. andn THEN I took a class on Black Culture and really was blown away.

He's just ignorant. Never went to college, dropped out of highschool. He's got a high iq, but undiagnosed learning disabilities in hs severely hampered him. Then he got mixed up with the wrong crowd and . . . He's got a good heart deep down, but just completely stupid where this subject is concerned.

[elleng]

21. Seems like the great tragedy is/was his undiagnosed learning disabilities,

which likely prevented him from approaching your realizations and have enabled him to remain ignorant in spite of a high iq. Tragic (and not his fault or responsibility.)

[mzteris]

32. but he's nearly 42 years old.

Time to grow up.

Time to take responsibility for himself.

Time to put away childish things and ideas.

[elleng]

33. Yes, but he's been without the benefits of help for his disability,

and still has never learned how to learn.

[HuckleB]

6. The so-called Confederate Flag is just a variant of a battle flag used by some confederate units.

The official flags of the Confederacy were quite different. Thus, the battle flag could be construed to carry an even more ugly intent.

[provis99]

31. right. the flag known as the "rebel flag" is just a Ku Klux Klan flag.

The Klan based it on some old Confederate flags.

[laughingliberal]

8. Just can't believe there are still some who support the War of Southern Treason. Go figure. nt

[RZM]

10. No need to get too upset over it

You can't win the war, you can just express your opinion. Just do that and then leave it as it is. It's not your problem and it's not your job to solve it, so you shouldn't let it get to you. Just my opinion. :hi:

[mzteris]

18. It would be easier to do that if

my son wasn't African American!

[RZM]

26. Unfortunately, I would have to issue the same advice

I understand you have a personal and familial stake in the issue, but that doesn't change the fact that they only person that's going to be affected by getting really upset about it is you. Like I said, you can't change the world. Tomorrow, there will still be plenty of people who venerate the Confederate flag. All you can do is tell them you don't appreciate it, but you can't do much more than that, unfortunately. I'd say be proud of who you are and who you're not, but don't get too upset about what other people are -- just take pride in the fact that you aren't them :)

[mstinamotorcity]

44. You have every right to try and reason

with your nephew. Your son is African American and you love him and want to protect him.But as an African American he is going to run into this type of behavior from a lot more people than your nephew. So you may as well have that conversation about what to do when confronted with this situation. And also rules about encountering law enforcement. Hey I have two sons and they have already been taught the DRILL. Now when it comes to your family respect them but if they are the vocal kind like your nephew,then you must let them know in no uncertain terms that you will not allow that kind of behavior in or around your home. Your children get enough adversity from the rest of the world when they come home all they should know is love and peace.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

11. so fly a wagon wheel flag "northern flag at same time period"

part of my heritage

what kind of reaction would you get from them for flying the flag that the union did as the burnt Atlanta.

[rug]

12. Have him read Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 of his heritage's Constitution.

No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs; or to whom such service or labor may be due.

http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/csaconstitution/article.iv.shtml

Ask him what he's proud of and whether he'd kill or die for that.

[haele]

19. So he and his buddies are proud of honoring a culture that started and lost a war.

Oh, I get it. It's a common conceit of the young and direction-less who need something to fight for - "Bonny Prince Charlie", the worship of Lost Causes, being a bad-assed Rebel with a Cause, etc, etc.
If he's an otherwise good kid, he'll grow out of it once he sees how utterly ignorant that sort of attitude is.
I've actually gone to some of the Library of Congress site and read first-person and diary accounts of Anti-Bellum and Reconstruction South; most people had no idea what they were actually fighting for, they were just following a "bloody shirt".
Does he really understand what the Confederacy and a Plantation-based society was really all about? If he was in the Confederacy, unless he was a major land-owner or a partner in a corporation, the best he could hope for was a job as an Overseer or some sort of Clerk. Most whites in the Confederacy were subsistence farmers or lower-middle class shop-keepers who were socially only a step above a free black man.
(Big Disclaimer Right Here - there is absolutely no justification for Slavery of any kind, especially as it is and has been practiced in Plantation Economies) There is also the fact that there were house slaves or skilled slaves that had better lives than most white people. Which doesn't say much for the shape your nevvy and his buds would be in if they were magically transported into the Confederate States of America to their "proper" station in life.

Haele

[SteveG]

25. The Confederate flag is the flag of traitors

That's how I always approach this subject.

Article III of the Constitution defines treason as

Section 3--1 Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying
War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and
Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony
of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

2 The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but
no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except
during the Life of the Person attainted.


Those who joined the Confederacy met that definition.

[DontTreadOnMe]

29. I have had this conversation many times...

and I always finish the conversation with "Sherman should have finished the job".

It usually leaves them speechless.

[TheKentuckian]

53. Proper

[Waiting For Everyman]

27. The Civil War is over and there is more to the South than that...

at least there SHOULD BE. I would hope so. Ask them, is the Civil War all there is to Southern heritage? Isn't there something worthwhile beyond that, which is current today? Whatever that something is, is what they should be "all about". Not a very old war.

[RandomThoughts]

28. Tell him that his ancestors fought in a war, some died and were hurt.

Although many had ideals that were shown wrong, and he does not have their glory, nor the right to pretend like he does, because he never did anything.

That will shut him up.


Then once he shuts up, then ask him to defend their concepts of society should be like,

then tell him he doesn't even know what his ancestors thought as he runs around thinking he is like them.

At that point he will probably throw out some labels like freedom or states rights, make him explain it.

Make him actually think about what he is talking about, if he gets hyped, make him calm down and explain it.


If he actually figures out what he is doing, then show him why it does not make sense and is wrong.


Then finish him off with this comment.
I think honoring your ancestors includes thinking on topics they thought important, not just trying to claim their tough times and actions, and if they were wrong, it might be because they never thought of there actions, and you never realized it because you never thought about it either, just like they didn't, so you can have the handed down not thinking and feeling, that led them in a pickets charge against a heavily defended position.

[provis99]

30. It stands for "Southerners"? What do those millions of black southerners think of that?

No, the rebel flag stands for racist white Southerners, and no one else. It does not stand for black southerners, and it does not stand for white southerners who are not racist. Frankly, the flag they fly isn't even any Southern flag. It is a flag of the Ku Klux Klan, invented in the 1920's, partly based on the Confederate Naval Jack. So it doesn't even really have anything to do with the Confederacy, at that.

[XemaSab]

34. Lay it on the table and ask him

if he thinks his cousin, your SON, should be a slave.

Then say that that's your only association with the flag, and nothing can change that.

Hopefully you can get him to associate the flag with ACTUAL PEOPLE IN BONDAGE. :(

[Obamanaut]

35. There were, at different times, three official Flags of the Confederacy.

None of them looked like the flag normally found on the front bumper of pickup trucks.

Google Flags of the Confederacy, print pictures, and ask which one is the real flag. I betcha they won't know, and it's fun.

[sally cat]

36. Don't overreact, realize he knows how to get your goat, and sign off.

[NuclearDem]

37. It's really quite tragic

There's a portion of Southerners who look on the Confederate flag as a symbol of southern resistance to the north and the US federal government enforcing policies that would have been destructive to them. A fair amount of the Confederate soldiers probably volunteered to fight for the CSA for this reason; their homeland was being invaded and they felt the need to defend it.

Funny thing is, if you replace "Southerners", "Confederate flag", and "US Federal Government" with "Germans", "Swastika", and "Versailles treaty" in that same paragraph, you can make a similar argument for the Swastika being a proud symbol of heritage for the Germans.

Unfortunately, while there are some ideals people tend to (wrongly) admire about both flags, the fact is their governments were wrong. Where there leaders told them they were standing up against foreign aggression and needed to defend their homeland, the fact is, those foreign aggressors were attempting to stop the awful, barbaric practices of the South and Nazi Germany.

So while they can admire the Confederate flag for some misguided ideas of Southern pride and resistance, the fact is, they were on the wrong side, and the South fought against "Northern aggression" to keep their economy intact and to keep the Federal government from ending slavery.

Just my $0.02

[bvar22]

38. This is an argument you will not win.

Better just to back off.
It is just a flag, colored bits of cloth.

Direct the conversation to Racism in America today.

[LawnLover]

39. Just tell him that the south isn't a flag

That he can be a proud southerner without pay allegiance to a flag that represented divisiveness and bigotry. That southern values are about family and caring, not hatred -- which is what that flag represents.

[NuclearDem]

40. Spot on

:thumbsup:

[LawnLover]

43. You might also ask him what he thinks the flag represents

Because I'll bet you ten to one he won't be able to answer in any articulate manner. He probably doesn't really know what it represents other than the Confederacy. So ask him what particular Southern values that flag stands for.

[mzteris]

45. I'm so stealing this phrase.

thanks.

[LawnLover]

48. My pleasure. Let us know his reaction. nt.

[elehhhhna]

41. The KKK is also a southern tradition. Is he proud of that, too?

[Greyhound]

46. Not the best tack. The KKK was founded in Indiana. n/t

[elehhhhna]

49. I know...and still there...but the south took to it purdy quick, eh?

[Greyhound]

47. Your sibling's son is a moron. Does he insist on remaining a moron?

If so, accept the loss and move on.

Like any religion, there is little that you can say or do that will overcome the lies if he chooses to believe them.

Sorry, but I've dealt with these idiots for well over 20 years and unless you are prepared to go to extreme lengths, the game is over. He lost.

[seabeyond]

50. sheit i got this argument from rw brother and he was raised in Az and Ca. nt

[Orsino]

51. Quiz him on Confederate history...

...and you'll see exactly how much he cares about this so-called "heritage."

[muffin1]

52. Racist asshats.

I live in a very red district in Virginia, and I've seen my fair share of Confederate flags. :puke:

Years ago, I walked into work right after seeing one on a car in the parking lot. I was fuming, and a co-worker asked me what was wrong. I told him about the flag and the slogan underneath which said "Heritage, not Hatred". My co-worker let out a disgusted chuckle and said "More like 'Hillbilly, not Human'". I still think of that every time I see one of those fucking flags.

Sorry about your FB troubles. That place is lousy with conservatives. :-(