How do you feel about the ongoing deficits and the national debt?

[OmahaBlueDog]

Not a big deal? A black hole that will destroy our nation? A problem, but one we can solve?

What sayeth DU?

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. very big deal. can't go on forever. Too bad teabaggers didn't care as much when bush was running

'em up

[The Wielding Truth]

2. Anyone remember when Carter was running on the deficit problem against Reagan?

[ejpoeta]

3. i think that people who say they care so much about deficits can't also expect to

extend the bush tax cuts. i'd rather they let all the tax cuts expire than to let the rich get them. the rich have to realize that they have to contribute to the country via taxes. the rest of us can't bear the brunt of it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

4. It's like everything - we expect solution without sacrifice

[baldguy]

5. It'll be a problem as long as we only tax the bottom half of the available earned income.

That is, the bottom 90% of the people.

[ejpoeta]

7. well let me ask you....

what happens when you cut off the knees of a chair? it may stand for awhile, but eventually it will collapse.

[A HERETIC I AM]

33. Extraordinarily well put. Nicely done. n/t

[applegrove]

37. +1

[Jackpine Radical]

6. I'm a Keynesian.

Deficits are tolerable, and increases in the deficit are tolerable, in times like these, especially when the deficit spending is used for purposes such as building and modernizing infrastructure. As Clinton proved, in better times it is possible to eliminate the deficit and start nibbling on the overall debt.

All that said, wasteful expenditure is never appropriate. I would name the wars, the maintaining of a hugely bloated military and the stimulus package, at least as it was carried out, as wasteful. Had the stimulus package been directed at people in need, and had it been large enough, and had it been accompanied by either strict regulation or nationalization of the banking system, I would have approved of it too. The problem with the stimulus was not that it was too large (it was actually too small), but that it was aimed at bailing out the miscreants at the top of the system. I'm a "bubble-up" theorist in contrast to the tinkle-down Reaganites.

[OmahaBlueDog]

18. I think the problem has become that deficits have become business as usual...

...rather than an injection of funds to overcome an economic hurdle or a national crisis.

The wars, and defense spending generally, is wasteful. To me, one of the most maddening things about the wars is that we cut taxes while at war, rather than, for example, have a "war tax" line item. We have deluded ourselves into thinking we can have war without signifigant national sacrifice. It was untrue in Korea and Vietnam, and it's untrue now. I think the three-day victory in GW I led us into a very false sense of reality.

I hate to agree with Ronald Reagan on anything, but a balanced budget amendment and a line item veto might be the only way to end this situation, because both parties in Congress are so beholden to corporate interests that I question their ability to bring any discipline to the budgeting process.

The TARK ( a Bush plan that Obama get's blamed for) was misguided. Better that the FDIC should have taken over Citi, BoA, et. al. and let Goldman Sachs burn to the ground (in a figurative sense). Then, they could have used the oportunity to renegotiate bad loans with homeowners, broken up the mosters into small-enough-to-fail sizes, and sold of the pieces at auction.

[Jackpine Radical]

20. I don't think a balanced budget amendment would solve anything,

and would maybe shackle us in some very bad ways. At the very least, people who wanted to spend more would find a way around it. Other than that, I don't see much I disagree with here.

[BeFree]

8. It must be nice

To be able to run the credit cards past the max and never have to worry.

Clinton had spending and the debt under control. WTF happened?

[phasma ex machina]

27. Blank checks are indeed a nice perq. That's why the average politician fights so hard to get into

office in the first place.

[DonCoquixote]

38. In all fairness

He also did it by "welfare reform", which turned out to be harmful in the long run. Bobbolink could probably explain better than I could.

[BeFree]

48. True

That was a mistake.

But Clinton had the defense department budget going down.
That's why we were labeled "Weak on defense."

I miss the Clinton years. 8 years of peace and prosperity.
That had to steal the election to change that course.

[mahina]

9. Between deflation and inflation fears, it's hard to know what to freak out about first.

Long term the deficits we've been racking up are a terrible idea.

Short term, the best way to decrease the deficit is to grow the economy back out of the smoking crater that we became in October 2008.

The relish with which those in power lick their chops at social security and the crumbs we give to our poorest people makes me sick.

The decisionmaking process, including the way we fund elections and the bribery machine that it's built, is horribly flawed. Americans don't have a clue where their money goes, and the hustlers who pretend it's all going to poor people take gross advantage of their ignorance while lining their pockets. We are threatening to basically change America forever- schools, roads, infrastructure, education, will be demolished if the wingers get their way.

We have billions for war but nothing for our people. It's sickening and cynical and criminal.

Why are our people so ignorant? How can we stand back and watch this happen?

It is wrong, wrong, wrong, a thousand times hewa.

One the sunny side :) we will have no more wars of choice. With any luck we'll have to stop trying to overthrow other countries. I pray that we become America again, that what we were founded on is stronger than the swaggering bullying devastation and consumption that we have made our habit.

So that's what I think.

[democrank]

10. A problem we can solve.

We just need to get serious and start with the bloated Pentagon and put a freeze on frivolous earmarks.

[phasma ex machina]

30. There's actually no solution. The greenback's doomed because of too much war, too much

entitlement, too much abuse. All America can do at this point is ride the greenback down for as long as possible.

[HuckleB]

11. Not a big deal in the present, but a long-term problem that can be solved.

Unfortunately, we will be "solving" it by shooting ourselves in the foot for at least the next two years.

[democrank]

12. We should talk with Howard Dean.

He`s big on balanced budgets.

[OmahaBlueDog]

15. I think there's a lot to talk to Howard Dean about at this point

Like coming back to the DNC chair spot, becoming Chief of Staff....

[sfwriter]

13. Well, the way it has caused interest rates and inflation to soar is...

...mythical.

Seriously, where is the downside again?

We ended the depression by raising the debt to 120% of GDP.

http://bureaucountydems.blogspot.com/p/national-debt.html

[Better Believe It]

14. It's not a problem nor a big deal.

[BzaDem]

16. Long term deficits and debt are very important, but the current conversation about them is insane.

Our deficit problem is almost entirely a healthcare costs problem. We could literally end Social Security, all discretionary spending, all military spending, jack up taxes to 90% on the rich, and we will still have unsustainable and endlessly-growing deficits in the long run due to Medicare. That's what happens when one component of the federal budget grows multiple times the rate of inflation/taxation/etc.

Health costs are everything. The only way other countries have figured out how to solve the problem is with price controls on health providers. These are either direct price controls, single payer (which is essentially just price controls), or a private-public mix with price controls.

Until we do that, other talk about the long term deficit is completely irrelevant. We absolutely need to dramatically cut our deficits and debt in the long run (and people who say otherwise are nuts), but the only way to do it is to lower healthcare costs.

[dkofos]

17. It's a problem that be solved easily.

Cap military spending at 250 billion.
Raise taxes on those making 250k and up.
Close ALL loopholes.
End corporate welfare.
Make corporations pay there fair share of taxes.

Problem solved.

I know it will never happen, but it would solve the problem.

[BzaDem]

19. None of what you said will even make a dent in the long term deficit if medical inflation continues.

Medicare grows faster than inflation (actually three times inflation). As long as that continues to be the case, in the long run, your proposals are a rounding error.

The only way to fix the long term deficit is to have price controls on healthcare (either directly, or in the form of single payer/public option/etc).

[dkofos]

21. Add medicare for all to my list.

And yes the govt would control the prices.

[Better Believe It]

22. We need much bigger deficits now via massive public works and infrastructure programs

Deficits are not the problem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9548570

[OmahaBlueDog]

If the object is to create jobs, wouldn't it be cheaper to...

start massively buying and renegotiating the remaining bad home loans, and thus refiring the housing market? If that happens, and housing pices stabilize, than housing starts rise again, construction jobs appear, people need to buy stuff for their homes, property taxes increase.....(you get the idea).

[Better Believe It]

31. Why not do both? And we do need to rebuild the nation's infrastructure and other

vital public works even if we didn't have massive unemployment.

The country is falling apart!

These are not "make work" projects that are being proposed by progressive economists.

[Ozymanithrax]

23. I'll let you know when I have a job. n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

24. I wish you luck. More to the point, I wish you employment.

[Drale]

25. The fact is

We have always had a deficit and always will. While right now it is rather high, it will work out in the end (unless Rand Paul destroys the world economy). What we really need to worry about and deal with is companies not hiring, which means less income to the government, which means the government has to borrow more.

[JDPriestly]

26. I'm more concerned about the fact that our nation doesn't produce

much steel or enough of its own raw products and doesn't manufacture really basic things like textiles or leather or much of anything else.
We have lots of massage therapists and the like, but very few people make the things that we all want and need like I-Phones or furniture or clothing or shoes -- That's our big problem. Turn us into a country that makes things and does things and doesn't just massage backs and talk, and our deficit will take care of itself.

[OmahaBlueDog]

29. You're on to part of it - we need to produce. We also need to export

We do actually export things like ag products, heavy equipment, and aircraft. I don't see a great future adapting Britain's nation-of-shopkeepers model.

[BlueCheese]

28. A problem, but not the biggest we have right now.

Right now the problem is the clunky economy, which is still stuck in neutral and not producing jobs. If government borrowing and spending is the way out, as most economists seem to think, then it's worth it.

Remember that interest rates are extraordinarily low right now, so it's almost free to borrow money--we have to pay it back, of course, but with almost no interest. So right now, I'm more worried about jobs than the deficit.

The focus on the deficit right now is a conservative push that is politically opportunistic. The Democrats should NOT fall for it, though of course it looks as if they've started already.

We should NOT have been running big deficits in the '00s when the economy was still doing reasonably well, and certainly not because of tax cuts, which don't really stimulate the economy. F'in Bush.

[A HERETIC I AM]

32. This thread will be fun to read in a day or two. n/t

[Urban Prairie]

34. Cheney said once that "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter"

Unless of course a DEMOCRAT just happens to occupy the Oval Office. THEN teabaggers, right-wingers and the GOP are all up in arms over the federal deficit and spending, while of course making the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy permanent, continue if not increase spending on national defense and the "war on terror", BUT federal spending on the national infrastructure. social services, SS, and Medicare/Medicaid most DEFINITELY must be slashed, or better still, eliminated.

[OmahaBlueDog]

35. I'd be curious to know what Reagan's deficits ran as a percentage of GDP

I also know that interest on that debt was a helluva lot higher when he was President.

[laughingliberal]

36. Buncha Hooey! Jobs is the best deficit reduction program. nm

[Hannah Bell]

39. if the folks running the country cared as much as they say about the deficit, they'd rescind the

bush tax cuts.

but they don't want to. so they must not think it's enough of a problem to mess with their own tax breaks.

ergo, it's not enough of a problem for the rest of the population to give up their breaks, either.

[OmahaBlueDog]

44. Ahhh, but you know it's not the taxes...it's those darn entitlements

...if the poor would just stop being poor, and all those single moms would just get married, we wouldn't be having this problem.

[Taitertots]

40. Wedge issue designed to inflame the emotions of imbeciles

There is no longer term lack of people to take on US debt and no longer term concerns with being able to repay said debt. All we have now is inflationary chicken littles and debt crisis fear mongers.

What we need is countercyclical policy. When the economy was doing good during the 1990's we needed to cut spending, raise interest rates, and raise taxes. Doing it now is economic suicide.

[Joe Fields]

41. We are in such a hole financially, that the interest accumulated on the debt

is piling up faster than we can pay the principal off. Either we have to raise our debt ceiling for some breathing room, or we will have to declare our nation as insolvent.

[B Calm]

42. It's time to end tax cuts to the rich bastards that sent our jobs overseas.

Do we need destroy our nation just so the rich can have another huge tax cut?

[Greyhound]

43. A distraction to keep us from looking at the why and what.

The cause of the debt/deficit problem is that we have allowed our government to be taken over by business interests to the exclusion of everything else.

We subsidize agriculture which yields over production of corn, as one example, making it artificially cheap while we subsidize the agricultural finance industry which locks farmers into the cycle. We subsidize the exportation of our jobs and we subsidize the importation of foreign workers to keep our wages low and constrain the growth of the middle class. We subsidize the theft of our wealth by Wall Street, we subsidize the oil industry and ensure that our appetite for it is always increasing and that no alternatives will be developed, we subsidize the importation of drugs through prohibition which in turn subsidizes the "war" on the same which yields a "prison industry" (the very idea is obscene) which demands that we incarcerate more and more of our citizens to sustain their growth. We subsidize gross polluters and then we pay to clean up the messes they leave behind when they abandon our shores for sludgier pastures. We subsidize the creation of monopolies disguised as half a dozen "competitors" (who of course collude to their own benefit) and allow them to dictate what will and will not be made available.

In any area of endeavor that we look at we find that in one form or another "our" government is choosing who will be the winner and then uses its power to keep them going no matter how badly they perform or how damaging they are to our nation.

I know this is not really what you were asking about, but like so many issues, these cannot be addressed in a compartment, the why and what.

[roamer65]

45. Eventually they will cause a massive currency crisis.

We do have to bring the situation under control...but that control should be bringing back 90% income tax rates on the wealthy.

[The2ndWheel]

46. The economy exists within the environment

If our environment is finite, then so is our economy.

These economic deficits and debts are part of the human imagination. It has been our attempt to dissociate from physical reality, because that reality limits human beings, as we are part of it. This fiat money system that we have, is nothing but our latest attempt at doing it, and is as far away from physical reality as we've been able to get so far. Now, if we can dream up some other fantasy, something even less real than adding a zero or two to a screen whenever we want to, then I guess we can keep doing what we've been doing. We'll still have to pay for it somehow(although like any good corporation, we'll try to socialize the costs of our actions to the rest of the planet), but since we'll be even further removed from physical reality, we may not notice. Sort of the way that we have to stimulate consumption to grow the economy, even though doing that is how we got to where we are environmentally, and those environmental issues are apparently a big deal, but you wouldn't know it with the way we keep doing things.

Are the deficits and debts a big deal? Do numbers matter? If they do, then they're a big deal. If they don't, then there's no reason to track them, and there's no reason why we can't just give everyone a line of unlimited credit, and everything should be fine.

It's really a question of whether or not physical reality has any meaning.

[OmahaBlueDog]

47. The economy, according to Jean Paul Sartre (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

49. I pretty much shut out any deficit discussions that doesn't include the MIC

It's been a continual Christmas morning for the Pentagon and intelligence community since 9-11 with zero accountability