Hold me back !

[kentuck]

I am about to get pissed off at Barack Obama.

Enough silence and ambiguity. How about some straight talk?

Do you support Social Security or not? Yes or fucking No?

Do you believe the Bush taxcuts have been good for this economy? Yes or No?

Do you believe the free markets are the solution to all our problems? Yes or No?

Do you believe in smaller government? Yes or No?

Do you actually believe you can compromise on everything or anything? Yes or No?

Do you truly believe you can work with the Republicans?

It's time for the President to stop his ambiguous statements that can be interpreted in a hundred different ways. We need to know where he stands if he wants us to continue to stand with him. We owe him nothing. He owes us. Either he is going to be a President for the people or he is going to be a President for the big corporations and banks and world financiers. So far, it doesn't look good for the people.

It's time to get off the dime, Mr President. It's time to lead. It is not time to hand off to the Senate and the House to work out a compromise. We have compromised out. We have no more to give.

It's time to clean house and get some advisers that are not left-overs from the Clinton Administration. If you plan on using the Clinton model to jumpstart our economy and balance our budget, you are living in a fucking dreamworld. It will not work. We need dramatic new answers for the new world we are now living in. Instead of acting like Ronald Reagan, why don't you show a little spark for progressive ideas and social progress?

The time is now, Mr President.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

2. I don't believe the President reads DU.

Just saying...

[kentuck]

3. He may want to start.

Instead of the Weakly Standard.

[MineralMan]

8. Yes, well...that's not going to happen.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/MineralMan/112

[tavalon]

22. That was a really good link

I think most of us know all the stuff in there but it's still a good reminder in this age of internet. I send an internet note to the White House between one to seven times a week and I doubt any of it gets read.

When I just need to blow off steam, I do a Dear Mr. President letter here. It usually lacks finesse and includes words not fit for church.

[jumptheshadow]

76. LOL, I got a response from the WH the day before the election

I had written asking for the administration not to appeal DADT. It took quite some time to get a response, and then it came the day before the election.

[SylviaD]

179. Letter to Barack Obama

I have received a response to one of my letters.

[de novo]

4. I think it was posted to generate debate, not to actually speak to the

President.

Just saying...

[MineralMan]

6. If you want to express your opinion to the President:

The President of The United States
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

He's not going to read DU. Ever.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

16. His loss.

DU's a place where one can learn what he's not hearing from Corporate McPravda or his advisors.

[laughingliberal]

141. +1000 nt

[Enthusiast]

173. Plus one...nt

[defendandprotect]

185. k

[de novo]

17. You missed the point again.

Why do you want to make this thread about a letter reaching the President instead of discussing the issues presented?

kentuck understands how these discussion forums work.

[Forkboy]

69. Diversion is crucial when one doesn't like the topic at hand.

[bobbolink]

95. You know.... I got that impression.....

:hi:

[neverforget]

158. Squirrel!

[Enthusiast]

174. Plus one...nt

[Subdivisions]

34. No shit??? Really? I didn't already know that...

:eyes:

[MineralMan]

38. Cool! Then I've provided some useful information.

That's what DU does best, isn't it? Thanks for the reply.

[hfojvt]

57. I found this to be an interesting coincidence

shortly after I made this post on DU

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/65

In the very next debate, Obama made almost exactly the same points against Hillary.

It was a fairly dramatic confrontation in that debate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7pw0cFRTLE

But when you post facts, it is likely that other people will find the same facts.

[MineralMan]

60. Yup. Facts are facts. The President's staff is full of people who

dig out facts. Generally, of course, they go to the original source, rather than to second, third, or fourth-hand sources. Oddly enough, the government itself is often the source for facts like the one you mentioned, whoever uses them.

[TBF]

70. Like he's going to read mail coming in to the white house -

probably takes them years just to get through the anti-anthrax cleansing.

Nope, the way we are heard is screaming from the streets. Protests, strikes - that is the only way we've ever been heard.

[MineralMan]

74. Time to start organizing, then. When's the first action?

I can't afford to travel, but have one in the Twin Cities and I'll be there. I've been protesting since 1965, when I stood and listened to Dr. King speak in Montgomery.

You want street action? Get to work organizing it. Let me know what you've planned.

[madmax]

146. Ah, the good old days.

I think that's what it's going to take and it maybe too late.

:toast: to the 60's and the anti-war movement & Voting Rights Act. Two biggies. Let's have another :toast:

[ima_sinnic]

169. wow, that'll show 'em!

:eyes:

[ima_sinnic]

171. on 2nd thought, that's a good idea--how about a mass mailing of the OP?

If you're good at computer stuff, you could ensure that the OP goes viral, along with a message to print it out and mail it by snail mail.
Or does your "organizing" extend only to ineffectual "demonstrations"?

[MineralMan]

187. I don't do mass mailings. They're worthless. Everyone should write

an individual message. That makes a much stronger impact on the recipients. As for ineffectual, what was ineffectual about Dr. King's demonstrations? Please explain. Not all street actions are effective. Some are. Not all letters are effective. Some are. Dr. King wrote one while in the Birmingham jail. You may have heard of it. If you have not, you can find it at this link:

http://www.mlkonline.net/jail.html

There are many ways to make a difference. Posting on DU is not one of them. It's a great place for people to discuss things, but is not an effective means for change in itself. That is why I suggested that the OP mail his points to the White House and that the person talking about street activism get busy and organize it.

Writing on an internet forum like DU is easy. It can even make a person feel like they have done something. It is not activism. It is simply discussion among ones peers. Getting things to happen means speaking to those who disagree with you directly. Second hand is not effective.

At my age, I do most of my activism through writing directly to those I want to do something. I do a lot of local election and campaign work. I no longer participate in street activism, unless it has the potential to be very effective. That is my choice. In the past, I did different things. Now, I do what I do.

I hope you enjoy your weekend.

[sabrina 1]

91. You seem to have a very literal way of looking at things.

I doubt most people thought that the OP would be read by the president.

Being read isn't the issue, being respected and attention given to the will of the will of the people, IS. And when politicians show a clear disinterest in the people who elected them, they don't get reelected. This is how we and they actually communicate.

But just FYI, since I have worked for some very high officials in the Democratic Party (non political job), you would be surprised who reads DU. Very surprised.

You seem very certain of the proclamations you make, I can say with certainty, that people at the WH actually do read DU and many other political blogs.

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of DU, and far too high an opinion of politicians, who are not royalty, not above those they represent, they are people to whom we gave a job and if they fail to do it, they will be fired. Like any other job.

[laughingliberal]

133. Thank you, Sabrina.

I would be very surprised to hear there are not people working in the administration who monitor the blogosphere.

Anybody whose job depends to a large extent on public opinion would be missing the boat if they weren't keeping up with the 'internets.'

[sabrina 1]

137. Hi laughingliberal,

You're welcome. I agree. And, many politicians, as we know, have often posted on forums like this. It is ridiculous to assume they are not reading blogs. You are right about them wanting to know what the public is thinking. :-)

[Enthusiast]

175. Thank you for expressing

my sentiments so well and so thoroughly.

I really like the following: "You don't seem to have a very high opinion of DU, and far too high an opinion of politicians, who are not royalty, not above those they represent, they are people to whom we gave a job and if they fail to do it, they will be fired."

[sulphurdunn]

98. Just becasue something is written

in the second person doesn't make it a letter. This opinion piece is actually more of an open letter even though it is not specifically addressed to the President. Open letters are not directly intended for the stated recipient. Whether or not the President reads DU or this post is irrelevant to its intended purpose and audience. But, I think you already know that.

[defendandprotect]

101. How about we all send copies to the president .... HERE .... ???

http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

[OregonBlue]

194. What? No demand that the president produce his birth certificate too?

[Chulanowa]

47. You think this post is intended to generate debate?

Do you know what "debate" means?

[de novo]

49. Yes. Do you?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

54. If you aren't angry...

you aren't paying attention.

You are commenting from a different reality or a different orifice.

[Jakes Progress]

89. So very tired and trite.

If you disagree with administration policy, you are telling him to get fucked. Just how do you think people should express their opinions? Are they allowed to have opinions that don't match yours?

This is how a discussion works. Follow closely.

I believe in SS and that it is not in any imminent danger of bankruptcy. Do you?

I do not think the bush tax cuts have been good for this country. Do you?

I think the free market is an intellectual exercise, the practice of which has produced more grief than succor for the average American. How about you?

I believe it is the purpose and duty of our elected government to provide for and protect its citizenry. The size needs to be what is required? How about you?

I don't think that some things can be compromised with morality. I think we have compromised away too much already. How about you?

I believe I can work with any republican who comes to me and wants to do the right thing. I haven't seen that happen in a long, long, long time. I don't believe that this president will ever have republicans work honestly with him. How about you?

Now if you answer the questions, we can begin the discussion that the OP suggested.

[rhett o rick]

104. You're wasting your breath. nm

[Jakes Progress]

142. I know.

But sometimes you just have to make them see themselves. I know they won't look, but at least the mirror is available.

[rhett o rick]

150. Use alert and ignore. nm

[Jakes Progress]

189. I've tried alerting to these distractors.

Hasn't worked yet.

[rhett o rick]

198. I have also. It's the only tool we have. nm

[Dr.Phool]

62. Sometimes posts are to express opinions.

The debate starts from there.

[The Uncola]

9. Maybe he should.

Then perhaps he would have been a lot more affective at doing something to help those of us that put him into the job he now holds, instead of selling us out every time he turns around.

jes sayin'

[tavalon]

21. No, I don't believe he does

And that is one of his and our greatest losses.

[lunatica]

27. I think he may have someone reading all the forums and blogs

And giving him a synopsis. His leadership skills aside, he's brilliant in his ability to keep on top of everything. Again and again he astounds everyone with his grasp of what's going on.

[MineralMan]

28. Actually, I consider that extremely unlikely. It would take a

roomful of people to read all the forums and blogs that deal with politics. And those forums and blogs mostly are about fringe concepts that have little to do with the decisions made by the President.

Now, someone may be keeping an eye on a couple of blogs, like HuffPo or others of that prominence, but there's no way anyone in the White house is reading discussion forums like this one. It's just not interesting enough.

However, all of these forums and blogs are monitored by other government organizations, which use computers to look for particular keywords that alert them to investigate further. Sometimes, that monitoring leads to visits from Agent Mike or others to ask whoever posted the alarming stuff, "WFT were you thinking?"

But, no, the President of The United States has probably never even heard of DU. We're just not that important.

[lunatica]

30. Google Democratic Sites. We're in the top three links

[MineralMan]

33. Do you see a computer on the President's desk?

What I'm saying is that there's an enormous amount of stuff posted on DU and the other sites. Most of it is worthless to someone's who's doing the job of POTUS. It's of no interest whatsoever. The only stuff that's useful is stuff that was posted here from other places. The discussions are not of interest to anyone in that position, and no decisions are based on such things.

99% of what is posted on DU is opinion, and most of it is uninformed opinion. That's not particularly useful. Again, most of the useful information on DU is pasted here from other sources...often third or fourth party sources...and is also mostly opinion. The President's office hears opinion all the time, but from people who have some credentials...not from anonymous posters on a discussion forum.

Nobody with any power to do anything cares one whit what is written here on DU. Nobody. It's interesting for us, certainly, and even helpful in understanding things sometimes. But as a basis for major decision-making, DU is not all that valuable. Opinion is what DU is about. Opinion is available from just about anywhere, and it can be gathered more or less scientifically through polling.

I really like DU. I'm here a lot, but I have no delusions that anything written here is of any real importance to anyone in office. It's simply not.

[boston bean]

37. .

Even if he doesn't have a desktop computer, Obama will still be able to go online now and again while he's on the job. The president has a fleet of computer-equipped staffers sitting directly outside his office doors. President Bush sometimes used the computers of these personal aides to check news reports or sports scores. (He also had a personal computer at his Crawford ranch, which he used for limited personal surfing.)

http://www.slate.com/id/2209523/

[Celtic Raven]

58. Think MM's ignoring your well illustrated point

but good job.

:thumbsup:

[lunatica]

59. Most recent Presidents use other offices for actual work

http://www.slate.com/id/2266592/

Where does Obama Work?
Not in the Oval Office

After the White House released photos of the newly renovated Oval Office late last month, the Explainer noticed something a little bizarre: There was no computer on President Obama's desk, or any paperwork, either. Does Obama actually work in the Oval Office? Not most of the time. The president conducts briefings and holds staff meetings in the Oval Office, but it's used primarily as a ceremonial space.

Obama does much of his day-to-day work—such as editing speeches and reviewing papers—in the President's Study, located off the Oval Office, and in the Treaty Room, on the second floor of the White House. Many recent former presidents—including both Bushes, Carter, Ford, and Johnson—chiefly worked out of the study as well. The last president to use the Oval Office regularly for desk work may have been John F. Kennedy, who would go there after hours to record the day's events for what would, presumably, have become his memoirs.

The desk in Obama's Treaty Room, unlike the Resolute desk in the Oval Office, is piled high with paperwork. The room also contains a computer, a printer, and a television.

[tavalon]

139. The OP is venting

That's what we do here. Sometimes, higher elected officials do come here, but certainly not the POTUS. More often, journalists do but this again, wasn't for that purpose. If this person wants the President to see his or her specific post, a regular letter, by post, is certainly a better idea. But that isn't what's happening here.

[pa28]

97. Yes, I'm convinced he gets his advice and guidance from a cloistered few.

These are, of course, very serious people. Probably the same very serious people who advised him to make friends with business and stay away from "fringe concepts" in the aftermath of the Nov. 2nd disaster.

If he made a conscious effort to break out of the Washington bubble he might notice the fringe concepts these very serious people are steering away from might be desperately needed and actually popular in the world outside of political journals, think tanks and self interested advisors.

[asdjrocky]

41. Of course he doesn't

Why would a right wing corporatist care what a bunch of liberals have to say?

[MineralMan]

42. To whom are you referring? I was talking about the Democratic

President of The United States. You know, the one elected by, and still supported by, Democrats across the United States. That President.

[asdjrocky]

64. You're statements are always so hackneyed.

You really should steal some new material.

[MineralMan]

65. I am not statements.

And I steal nothing. If you don't get the reference in the title of this post, just ask, and I'll be happy to explain it.

[asdjrocky]

66. Yeah, a type-0.

I can fix that, for you there is little hope.

[MineralMan]

67. There's always hope.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[asdjrocky]

71. And you do the same. nt

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

168. right--like there's some kind of difference there

and "still supported by" is your opinion, since Republicans are the only ones whose support matters (as evidenced by the past two years of granting of excessively generous concessions--even before "negotiations" on anything have begun), so Democratic supporters may have started wandering off. Ya think? :eyes:

[davidwparker]

61. ... and that is one of his problems n/t

[sabrina 1]

87. Maybe if we called it the 'Goldman Sachs' Blog, Private membership

only' he'd read it.

His actions indicate that you are exactly correct. He doesn't read anything that comes from what his Deficit Commission Co-Chair, Alan Simpson, calls the 'lesser people'.

[JackRiddler]

131. Well in that case let's wrap it up and stop wasting our time.

[ima_sinnic]

167. are you saying he has no interest in what The People are saying?

Are our concerns too petty for him?
Are the views expressed on a Democratic website of no consequence to him?
And if he is not going to pay attention to what we are saying, should we then not bother saying it?

[Enthusiast]

172. Maybe he should....nt

[WinkyDink]

193. Not the intent. Just sayin'.

[Catherina]

5. Getting mad is the first step to dealing with the problem. I won't hold you back.

I would if I thought there was any chance you were wrong. But in this case, I can't.

The facts are there for all to see and no words can erase action.

Rec'd

[Cherchez la Femme]

7. Oh, but he's so DREAMY!!1!

:eyes:

[Gin]

12. copy and paste these questions in an email to the WH...we all

need to do that

[defendandprotect]

102. I just did it -- !!

[Skittles]

164. and he gives PURTY SPEECHES

[LWolf]

10. Welcome. nt

[lunatica]

11. His mind works in the gray areas

Just like you can't make people who think in black and white only, like George Bush, to think in nuanced terms, you can't make someone like Obama who thinks in complex nuance give yes/no answers. That's the conclusion I've had to come to. On top of being politicians which is already a different way of thinking to begin with, you have to take into account that there are other ways of thinking and that those ways are ingrained and natural.

[kentuck]

14. Yes.

I can see you are drowning but I think we need to discuss what type of rope to throw to you and how long? We need the House and Senate to work together to figure out what is best. We definitely want to save your life. But we should not ask the wealthy to donate to the cost of the rope. We need to compromise, like Henry fucking Clay.

[lunatica]

18. Actually sometimes it's more like we need to give corporations the money

for the rope so they can create rope making jobs which will save you.

[sabrina 1]

94. We did that with the Bush Tax Cuts, and what happened was

the slowest job growth since 1945, an over 4% drop in income levels for the working class, and over two trillion dollars added to the Deficit.

Okay, do you think the president is in possession of these facts? Because they are readily available, in fact right in his own government offices.

If he is not, and needs to ask the question of ten years of studies gathering the facts and figures, I don't think he belongs in this job.

If he is, then he is prevaricating and not taking the devastating results of handing over this much money to the wealthy, seriously. In fact it would appear he is being deceptive.

So which is it, does he know what everyone else with a few functioning brain cells and a computer knows, or does he not?

[defendandprotect]

111. Yes .... PLUS .. they took bail out money @ ZERO% and then invested it in Treasury notes.....

at .035% and .04% instead of using it to create jobs --

Pension money -- underfunded anyway at best because regulations were loosened --

was used to SHIP jobs overseas -- !!

[Caretha]

116. "Give the Corporations money"

Hehe...haha..roflmao....wowowowowo..chuckle chuckle chuckle....you be one funny person. Your name is so appropriate. Thanks for the insanity.

[Exilednight]

181. That's called Reaganomics, and it doesn't work. The rope company takes the money .................

then outsources the job to China. By the time the rope makes it back, it's made by slave labor using sub-par materials and arrives two weeks too late.

[unapatriciated]

195. now that's funny.

biggest laugh I'v had in a long time.

[eleny]

35. But first - we need a commission to study the real need here

[Gin]

15. he's a thinker and a good speech maker....but not a good leader

(IMHO)

[lunatica]

20. My fervent hope for this country is that he'll actually learn to be a leader

who does what's right. Sometimes compromise isn't the right thing to do.

[gateley]

25. That's my hope too, lunatica. nt

[defendandprotect]

114. Obama is a leader .... the question is, "For whom?" ....... the people or corporations?

[kenny blankenship]

72. Too bad that makes him out of sync with the world of political reality

and inappropriate for a leader.

[Octafish]

19. Are you going to stop illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars for empire?

Hold me back!

[defendandprotect]

115. Exactly ... even Biden is helping with the warmongering on Iran ....

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

68. !

:rofl:

[pintobean]

24. Hold you back?

Are you going to kick his ass? :rofl:

[gateley]

26. Send this to him, kentuck. IF he reads it, it will at the very least be another

reminder of how we're feeling.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

29. K&R

[Subdivisions]

31. K&R!!!! +1,000,000!!!! YES or FUCKING NO, MR PRESIDENT!!! n/t

[MissDeeds]

32. Well said

One of the best posts on DU in a long time.

K&R

[blindpig]

36. Tell me something...

Why can you not accept the reality of his actions and lack of action as the sum of his intent? I credit the man with intelligence, he is no fool, I believe he knows what he is doing. Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words. Chuck that 'hopey' shit kentuck, it is an impediment to action and resolution.

[kentuck]

39. I have to believe.

I have to hope. Otherwise, there is only surrender. I am not ready to surrender.

[blindpig]

43. Not necessarily, beyond hope there is clarity

Concerning Hope:

The Audacity of Hope™
by anaxarchos
Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:51 am

Yes, the phrase is trivial and empty, but accepting the idea that even the trivial and empty means something in the present society, let's take a quick peek. What the hell is "Hope™"? Let's crawl into the way-back machine and go way, way back... before the spiritual rebirth of Hope™ in the modern era, before the early Catholic resurrection ("Faith, Hope, and Charity") and go all the way back to the Greeks, with whom almost everything starts. What, dear Greeks, is Hope™?

Well, according to Greek myth, Hope™ was the greatest of the evils contained in Pandora's Box. When Pandora loosed these evils upon the world, Zeus suddenly had a change of heart. He decided, charitably, that Hope™, the most powerful of all the evils, could be kept from humanity. At his instigation, Pandora slammed shut the lid of the box when all but Hope™ had escaped.

Only Hope was left within her unbreakable house,
she remained under the lip of the jar, and did not
fly away. Before , Pandora replaced the
lid of the jar. This was the will of aegis-bearing
Zeus the Cloudgatherer.

Hesiod

Alas, without Hope™, humanity was immediately reduced to despair and rebellion in the face of the other evils. Reluctantly, Zeus bid Pandora to return to the box and release Hope™. And as this worst of plagues was loosed upon the earth, it was accompanied by universal jubilation and relief... because it made the other evils tolerable through the possibility that their reign might be ended, not by the actions of humans themselves, but by the intervention of others, even of the fates. Hope™ was the final excuse, worthy of the Gods themselves, for failing to act in one's own behalf.

Hope. Pandora brought the jar with the evils and opened it. It was the gods' gift to man, on the outside a beautiful, enticing gift, called the "lucky jar." Then all the evils, those lively, winged beings, flew out of it. Since that time, they roam around and do harm to men by day and night. One single evil had not yet slipped out of the jar. As Zeus had wished, Pandora slammed the top down and it remained inside. So now man has the lucky jar in his house forever and thinks the world of the treasure. It is at his service; he reaches for it when he fancies it. For he does not know that that jar which Pandora brought was the jar of evils, and he takes the remaining evil for the greatest worldly good--it is hope, for Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment.

Friedrich Nietzsche


"The Audacity of Hope™" is an oxymoron, according to the Greeks. There can't be any "audacity" in Hope, for Hope is the stuff of denial and cowardice - two other escapees from the box. The Greeks personified hope as the Goddess Elpis (Spes for the Romans), sister of Sleep and Death and the daughter of Nyx, the Goddess of the night. In turn, Elpis was the mother of Rumor.

Here are the next lines from Hesiod's Works and Days.

And now attend, while I at large relate,
And trace, the various Turns of human State.

Soon as the deathless Gods were born, and Man,
A mortal Race, with Voice edu'd, began,
The heavenly Powers from High their work behold,
And the first Age they style an Age of Gold.
Men spent a Life like Gods in Saturn's Reign,
Nor felt their Mind a Care, nor Body Pain;
The fields, as yet untilled, their Fruits afford,
And fill a sumptuous, and enevied, Board.
From Labour free they all Delights enjoy,
Nor could the Ills of Time and Peace destroy;
They die, or rather seem to die, they seem
From hence transporting in a pleasing Dream.
Thus, crowned with Happiness their every Day,
Serer, and joyful, passed their Lives away.

Hesiod





Prometheus : Yes, I caused mortals to cease foreseeing their doom (moros).

Chorus : Of what sort was the cure that you found for this affliction?

Prometheus : I caused blind hopes (elpides) to dwell within their breasts.

Chorus : A great benefit was this you gave to mortals.

Aeschylus
Prometheus Bound (Greek tragedy C5th B.C.)

Hope is the opiate of the powerless - a substitute for action - and it has been thus for more than 2500 years.

Fuck Hope.

With permission of the author, Anaxarchos

[kentuck]

45. Thanks for that post.

Very interesting.

[Stardust]

157. I rec your post. I never realized that hope is not something good...

[NoPasaran]

40. Jump!

[Joe Fields]

44. Thanks, Kentuck for putting it so succinctly. Big K&R!

[ibegurpard]

46. He left out privatization of education

but otherwise I agree

[defendandprotect]

117. THAT was quite a shocker for me ..... and with it, they'll knock out teachers union -- !!

[WillyT]

48. HUGE K & R !!!

:patriot:

:kick:

:hi:

[BeFree]

50. Off the fence, Barack,

Get your ass off the fence.

We elected you to represent us, get started. Or kiss us goodbye.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. Your questions scare me.

[pgodbold]

52. K&R

[somone]

55. Fair questions to ask

Enough backstabbing bullshit

[mstinamotorcity]

56. Why won't progressives see

that republicans and some dems will not stop doing the main thing it takes.Taking Corporate loot. And we as citizens are helping them work against us. Just saying.As long as we give them our money to hurt us that is what they will do.

TOMBStone

[defendandprotect]

119. We just had one of the biggest financial coup d'etats in the bail outs ....

12 TRILLION of taxpayer/Treasury looted for criminal coporatism ---!!

[mstinamotorcity]

188. And they still don't see it!!!!!

We patronize their businesses,we invest in their companies,we go along with what they say even though we know the truth. Republicans don't have to change because we won't!!!!!!

TOMBStone

[BlueJac]

63. Get it on!!!

[TBF]

73. I think we've seen quite enough to know his answers -

even if some of us don't want to admit it.

He'll hear us when we're in the streets striking, other than that we're just shoved into a corner and told only to come out on voting day. We saw how that worked ...

[Dinger]

75. K & R (nt)

[PuraVidaDreamin]

77. Thanks Kentuck

My sentiments exactly.

We need someone to stand up for the working class.

[Slit Skirt]

78. this is a sad but true sentiment for many of us

how can he explain this?
How can you have a deficit commission giving 14 out of the 18 seats to conservatives. No one made him do that.
Go to India and talk about more jobs being outsourced.
I hear the beginning of the giving in on the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest.
Entitlement cutting, when he never addresses the outsourcing, the h1b visas, the corporations investing in other countries..

and what is even more embarrassing is that Eric Cantor is going behind the back of the president, supporting "US Policy towards Israel" even if it isn't what the President wants, or what the country needs.

The President of the United States must stand up for the people of America or the backlash will come. He needs to play hardball cause the rethugs are walking all over him.


People like me do not want the president to fail...we just need him to stand up and be strong, if not stronger, than the people want him to be. He needs to be an FDR, he needs to fight

[indimuse]

79. Thank you!

knr!

[girl gone mad]

80. k & r

[Myrina]

81. Kick and Rec

:kick:

[SidDithers]

82. Unrec...nt

Sid

[Gold Metal Flake]

109. Rec...nt

[Lorien]

123. And Rec again. nt

[dbt]

166. And again!

I'm having bad Jimmy Carter flashbacks.

[1776Forever]

83. You hit it with "the Clinton model" - When he went to India I could only think of Bill & Hillary!

I am sure you know what I mean but here is an article about that if someone else wants to read about it:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/memo1.pdf

..................

I believe it is time for this Administration to stand up and really tell us where they stand. We and they cannot afford not to do that!

[maritzasolito]

84. Vote Repuke so that you are happy all the time..

while the rich get richer and the others get screwed! There is nothing that will make the unhappy happy anyways!

[sabrina 1]

108. Wrong. What will make the unhappy happy is for Democrats

to stand up and fight. As soon as you see them do that, post an OP and you'll be shocked at how happy the 'unhappy' will be.

[Phlem]

113. What?

These suggestions aren't even remotely funny and border on the ignorant.

As if.

-p

[defendandprotect]

121. In your up is down world, we want more right wing government .... ????

You really think we're critical of Obama because he isn't right wing enough?


:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

K&R. I don't think any president

will ever honestly answer any question. It is part of the make-up of the type of person who runs for president.

Sorry your thoughts got hi-jacked right from the start. Some people are pretty good at dividing and diverting, but not so good at saying what they believe.

[skyounkin]

85. Now is time- to be President.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. Yes, but Democrats think that people will like them if only they're wishy washy enough.

[Major Hogwash]

110. Splunge for me too, sir.

Is that a picture of your kids?
My gawd, they're adorable!!

[merkins]

88. My question is: Is he an honest actor?

Excuse my jaded cynical eyes, but it sure looks like the last 2 (30?) years has been nothing but corporate triangulation.

[Goldstein1984]

90. You do recognize the futility?

Of asking any politician to say what they mean and do what they say?

Obama is just another politician, in spite of high initial expectations. I've been much happier since I lowered mine.

I'm waiting for the U.S. masses to put their tribalism/nationalism/patriotism aside and recognize that we have far more in common with fellow workers all over the world than we have with our own "representative government."

[peace frog]

92. You're about to get pissed off? About time.

Took ya long enough, but welcome to the fray.

[liberation]

93. "Pragmatism" means never having to say what you mean, or mean what you say...

... people somehow were convinced that was a good thing for a politician.

Politics involve ideology at their most basic levels. Pretending that someone who is not bound by any ideological constrain is a good politician is a bit of an exercise in denial. After all, I am yet to see the Vatican make the case that "agnosticism" is a good trait for a Pope. Thus by not being held accountable to any ideological metric, a pragmatic politician can speak with both sides of the mouth. It is a great deal, if you can it going. So I don't think I can blame Obama for that, he got away with it. So Kudos.

The real irony of this situation is that the Dem power brokers feel entitled to "pragmatism," meaning they can play the whole "bipartisan" (read: not having to take a stand on anything that may interrupt their triangulations)game for all it is worth. But the same Dem leaders expect the base of their own party to be utterly "partisan" (read: vote Dem regardless of how little differentiation the leadership shows with respect to the Republican alternative).

In other words, the pragmatism that the geese honchos like so much, apparently is not good for the gander base. Funny how that workd, eh...

At some point Mr. Obama needs to express clearly where he stands, to this day... after a couple of years his administration, I have absolutely no clue what he is for or against. Other than I keep getting told that he's playing n-dimensional chess and thus the problem is that my feeble little brain can't comprehend his words anyways, even though all the evidence to the contrary....

[bobbolink]

96. Addition: Are you willing to end homelessness? Yes or No?

[femrap]

99. This Lame Duck

could be Brilliant if only the Dems will find a spine.

[defendandprotect]

100. Wish you were right that the pres simply needs to wake up ... NO .. we need to wake up!!!

We've just had one of the greatest financial coup d'etats ever --

$12 TRILLION given to corrupt/criminal capitalists by Bush/Obama in 18 months!

And the license to commit these illegalities -- i.e., the overturning of NEW DEAL

regulations (including Glass Steagall) which prevented them from engaging in organized crime --

was given to these corporate criminals by the right wing, including often with the

complicity of Democrats.


As they say ...

"You can only really be betrayed by those closest to you -"

[rhett o rick]

103. I wish it were that simple but it aint. We are stuck with Pres Obama like it or not.

I see two ways to look at this situation:
1. We are stuck with Pres Obama. There is no way we can primary him. Even if we did replace him with a real progressive, we would lose the election.
Therefore, we need to move on. Bite the bullet and work for his re-election. Doesnt mean stop "holding his feet to the fire" or "making him be progressive". But not tearing him down to the point of affecting his re-election. Sorry, that's how I see it.
2. The other option, which is one we may have to eventually face, is to say "fuck-it", and throw our support behind an honest progressive regardless of the consequences.
Please tell me what you think.

[defendandprotect]

125. Why are you saying that a "real progressive" would lose the election?

I'm for a liberal Democrat and think someone should be challenging Obama

right now -- and trying to push to the left -- shaming him!

But, we have two years more of this garbage -- and at least someone running

against Obama right now would help lift the weight!!


Look at Biden .... pretty much shouting his lungs out for an Israeli attack on Iran!!!

Empire! Empire! Oil! Oil!


TPB are giving us the candidates we get to vote for -- on computers!!

:eyes:

[rhett o rick]

135. I sympathize with your goals. However, we must be practical. The midterms demonstrated that a good

share of America are farther right than the president. He won in 2008 because he drew lots of support from the "not bat-shit" right.

A Kucinich cant even win in the Democratic Party let alone the general. Pres Obama is an incumbent. That gives him a lot of leverage over some progressive we might come up with.

I understand your frustrations, but we must be practical and get what we can.

[defendandprotect]

147. Disagree with your interpretation of the election ---

Just look at 2000 -- a tremendous push to the LEFT -- Gore winning by more than

500,000+ votes -- and Gore deciding at the end that he would have been a more

effective candidate had he continued with liberal populist rhetoric -- in fact

it was the DLC who told him to quit it -- and he left the DLC after that!

Look at 2004 -- another stolen election ---

Large shift to the left again in 2006 -- Pelosi: "Democratis were elected to end the war!"

Confirming that we have have a huge anti-war movement still and Democrats are against

these wars.

2008 -- some say it was such a landslide that Democrats should have actually had something

like 24 more members of the House! We have these voting computers for a reason -- steals!


From what I saw of 2010 election, Obama is despised by the left wing base because of his

trampling of MEDICARE FOR ALL -- and his back room deals with Big Pharma and private health

care industry. The public knows that Obama and Baucus are two politicans who were most

heavily sponsored by the health care industry! That counts!!

Ironically, you seem to be suggesting that the vote FOR Obama's liberal stands during the

2008 election disappeared somehow ... and when the 76%+ of the public which wanted single

payer/government run health care saw it trampled by Obama that they decided to turn to the

RIGHT WING GOP in 2010 to get it? :eyes: :rofl:




And we also now see Obama moving to attack Social Security and Medicare -- there was no

need to set up the Cat Food Commision ...

If we want to check corruption and crime, it is right before our noses --

The Bush/Obama bail outs for criminal corporations was $12 TRILLION ...

with another $3.4 TRILLION still unaccounted for by Pentagon!

The base of the Democratic Party is the liberal left -- and progressives --

and the Demcoratic Party's fall in 2010 came because Obama adminsitration abandoned

their liberal voters for a pro-corporate agenda over and again!



Additionally, America is a liberal nation -- Chomsky talks about that frequently saying

that the polls we don't see prove that. These polls exist because the right wing have

to know where they really are. It is also obvious in the right wing need to control all

of our free press, publishing houses, media -- any bit of truth is a danger to them.

It's like a pebble hitting a mirror -- it shatters it!

[rhett o rick]

149. When Georgie Bush the war criminal ran in 2004, he got half the voters in America to vote for him.

Granted he still had to steal the election. The point is that about half the voters voted for him. In my state, Washington, which is Blue, the incumbent Sen Patti Murray had a close race with idiot Rossi. The point is there are a lot of non-progressive voters out there.

do you honestly think a progressive Democrat could win the presidency. If so why not in 2008?

[defendandprotect]

154. We don't really know what happens in these computer steals... but we do know

that we have been manipulated by false reports/returns since these machines

began to come in --

The LARGE ones used by MSM came in during the mid-1960's -- up til then MSM could

only report actual vote tallies. These large computers gave them new powers to

PREDICT and CALL elections -- ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES -- winners and losers --

even to name the new president! What we saw in 2000 was merely a REVERSAL of those

new powers.

The computers used by voters came in during the late 1960's -- I'd question every

election back to Nixon/Humphrey. Was there ever a Southern Strategy or was there only

ever stolen elections?

Keep in mind these computers began to come in about the same time America was passing

the Voting Rights Act!

Two journalists in Florida began investigating the seemingly mysterious computer results

in the late 1960's --

They eventually wrote a book which though contracted for was taken off the shelves immediately.

The book can be read on line here ...

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm


The only way the right wing can rise is via political violence and we had a 50 year

plus period of out in the open right wing political violence -- assassinations of liberal

leaders -- even liberal leadership before it could rise.



do you honestly think a progressive Democrat could win the presidency. If so why not in 2008?

Yes, I do -- if we had the right candidate. What do you think of Whitehouse?

Granted, we no longer have any Bobby Kennedy's -- or JFK's -- and that's purposeful.

Why not in 2008? -- because we were given the candidates TPB wanted us to vote for --

I doubt anyone would deny our political system is run on corporate money ... agree?

Corporate money isn't paying for liberal candidates -- and therefore MSM ignores them

because they get 80% of the campaign funds for ads.

The primaries are simply another level of corporate control of our elections.

I remember Nader talking about that a long time ago -- saying that where do corporations

permit us to select who will be on their Board of Directors?

Again -- it is right wing political violence which limits the rise of liberal candidates.

[ctwayne]

186. Obama Will Now Move Sharply to the Right

Obama spent his first two years compromising with the Republicans he had just defeated. Now that the Republicans have some real political power, I expect him to move sharply to the right. On some issues- such as his terror bombing campaign in Pakistan- he is already to the right of most Teabaggers.

[defendandprotect]

196. How about a RECALL ??? Oops! We have Biden in the VP spot ....

and he's been calling for Israel to attack Iran for more than a year now!!

[ProudDad]

144. I have a hard and fast rule not to vote for people whose policies are going to kill my grandchild nt

[tomp]

148. good rule! nt

[rhett o rick]

151. So I take it you havent voted much lately. nm

[ProudDad]

191. I didn't vote for Obama if that's what you mean...

I already knew he was just another shill for capitalism...

[deacon]

105. He's answered all these questions. The meat grinder media is where the controversy begins. n/t

[defendandprotect]

126. Obama is making pro-corporate decisions because of the "media" .... ???

[swilton]

106. It's time to find a progressive candidate for 2012

[defendandprotect]

128. Would be helpful if someone was challenging him right now ....Whitehouse?

It would make the next two years much more interesting!!!

[swilton]

107. If you have to ask him these questions

You, unfortunately, already know how he 'would' answer them.

[David Zephyr]

112. Proud to K&R this, Kentuck.

Word!

[kentuck]

120. Thanks David...

I am trying my damnedest to support this President but he is making it very difficult.

[KoKo]

118. "BROKE FREE!"

THOSE ..."CHAINS THAT BOUND US! FREEDOM TO SPEAK...TO BE A MAN/WOMAN...WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU KNOW!

FREE AT LAST...FREE AT LAST...THANK GAWD O'MIGHTY...I'M FREE AT LAST...

THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG GOING ON OUT THERE! WE NEED TO FIX IT!

(I hear..Kentuck)

[Lorien]

122. That's one thing that's remained consistent between candidate Obama and President

Obama; complete non-committal and constant vagueness on damn near everything.

[KoKo]

127. Sad thing is about "constant vagueness"

is that we've kind of gone through this before, if you think about it. If you don't "get my drift"...I'll just say that the "one who came before" was a "MASTER" of "Constant Vagueness"....

BUT, the "one that came before" had an ARMY SUPPORTING HIM! This one is a different one... He had an ARMY...but left it on the Battlefield. He's Recruiting now for REPLACEMENTS....:-( So Sad......who could have believed it would come to what we see going on....

Let's hope it changes...if one still has "hope."

[Skittles]

165. CORRECT

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tx4obama]

129. Ah helloooooo - The President is currently out of the country. He'll be back Sunday evening. n/t

[Exilednight]

183. I'm sure Air Force One is equipped with phones, fax and internet. n/t

[ProSense]

130. And therein lies the problem

It's time for the President to stop his ambiguous statements that can be interpreted in a hundred different ways. We need to know where he stands if he wants us to continue to stand with him. We owe him nothing. He owes us. Either he is going to be a President for the people or he is going to be a President for the big corporations and banks and world financiers. So far, it doesn't look good for the people.

The only thing the President owes you is to govern and do the right thing. He was elected by a lot of people who may or may not see things exactly as you do.

People owe it to him to listen to what he has to say and not put words in his mouth.

People owe it to him to hold him accountable.

From his statements, I know exactly were the President stands on Social Security, tax cuts for the rich, trade and government.

Now comes the hard part: governing. He can stand there like a stick in the mud and not get things done or he can work to build the coalitions needed to make progress.

Not everything is open to compromise, but the President has to make decisions based on his best judgment. People can speculate about what he will do and they can be upset with him for compromise, but they cannot put words in his mouth while ignoring what he is actually saying.

They owe him that much.

[Phlem]

136. "The only thing the President owes you is to govern and do the right thing."

Still waiting................

-p

[ProSense]

138. So

in addition to the charges in the OP, you think he's also incompetent?

Why not start a thread calling for his impeachment: He's vague, not a leader, cannot govern and isn't doing the right thing.

Hell, write a letter to the incoming House leadership, they'll help you out.

[Phlem]

140. I did not say that.

but I guess you've got me figured out.

-p

[ProudDad]

145. He's a VERY competent spokesmodel for the elite...

Nobody can argue with that...

Best republican money can buy...

[JoseGaspar]

199. What you describe is not "democracy"...

It isn't even crappy Greek democracy. It is something someone made up, akin to "hiring a CEO". It has appeal to middle managers but no relevance to modern politics (at least, not since the end of the 18th century).

He doesn't get to make up any shit he likes in order to "get thinks done" or to "make progress". He is not "his own man", the day after his election.

You are wrong about who owes what to whom and if 2010 didn't settle the matter, 2012 will.

[earth mom]

132. Word. nt

[unkachuck]

134. a big, fat, heart-healthy K&R....n/t

[laughingliberal]

143. K & R nt

[tomp]

152. your post implies that you still consider the possibility of obama....

....coming to the aid of ordinary americans, that there is some glitch, or he is somehow off track.

what you are seeing from obama is The Plan. this is exactly what democrats do-bones and crumbs while selling us down the river.

i predict you will one day see this but will it be before it is too late?

[mistertrickster]

153. Totally agree. We voted for FDR and we got freaking Clinton.

Look back at how Obama was gonna reign in Wall Street, make the greedy effers pay, help the middle class etc. etc.

Instead, Goldman Sachs CEO's are running the Treasury and the freaking Fed.

This is ridiculous.

We need to turn up the heat.

[defendandprotect]

197. K&R

[Samantha]

155. I don't think I can hold you back, kentuck BUT

it is how the game is played inside the Beltway. There are a few rules most players abide by if they are any good at the game:

1. Never let them know what you are thinking
2. Don't listen to what I say - watch what I do

I have mentioned others along my way here but those two readily come to mind at this time after reading your thread.

Everyone complains about the Inside the Beltway mentality, but the truth of the matter is this is a unique place. It has to have unique rules in order to keep functioning. I don't think it easy to understand unless you live here and observe it for a long period of time.

I wish I had something else to give you at this time to calm you down, but all I have is the literal truth. Other than that, it sure is nice to hear from you again!

Sam

PS The converse of the above is also true in College Park. I will never, never understand how someone like Rand Paul becomes a U.S. Senator - but perhaps one has to live in Kentucky to understand its politics ....

[liberation]

160. That is fine and all...

too bad Mr. Obama ran on a campaign of "change" from the old "Beltway approach..."

[DeadEyeDyck]

156. KnR

[autorank]

159. Your best ever k*r

And that's saying a lot!

[The Northerner]

161. K&R

[Raine]

162. TOTALLY agree! nt

:thumbsup:

[Skittles]

163. yeah, good luck with that

[Enthusiast]

170. Are you saying the President has been

wishy-washy? :rofl: :sarcasm:

[B Calm]

176. Simply put, get off your ass and put on your boxing gloves!

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Faygo Kid]

178. I've had it up to here.

I want a voice for Americans, not a weaseling semi-endorsement of the Catfood Commission.

Stand up for the people of this nation who are hurting, Mr. President! The Rethuglicans and Faux News are out to destroy us, and we need a leader to fight back!

[Creative]

180. Actually, I believe he will look to the Clinton model...

After all, Clinton was able to turn the tables after his mid-term losses and win a 2nd term.

[ProudDad]

192. And then set up the latest economic collapse

and kill 500,000 children in Iraq...

And make the current consolidation of media possible...

And sign Patriot Act I...

And Nafta and GATT...

Best fucking republican money could buy -- until the latest one...


But it really doesn't matter...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9550056#9556716

[xchrom]

184. recommend

[AngryOldDem]

190. Too late to rec...

...but not too late to :kick:

Great post.