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I posted the content of my e-mail to Rachel about Jon on a Facebook link at Comedy Central

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 04:36 PM
Original message
I posted the content of my e-mail to Rachel about Jon on a Facebook link at Comedy Central
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 04:47 PM by UTUSN
I cleaned up the F-word and the H-word (hate), and I apologize to DU for having named DU in the original e-mail to Rachel as being where I posted because of the possible appearance that I was SPEAKING FOR DU (what a joke THAT would be).


http://ccinsider.comedycentral.com/2010/11/12/jon-stewart-on-the-rachel-maddow-show/comment-page-1/#comments

The age of Jon STEWART is over for me. And I’m going to confess that, while I loved the small doses when his brilliance was breathtaking in skewering particular wingnuts I am a better sniper against wingnuts than I am a fan in any echo chamber of my Lefty side. This means I have only watched snippets of STEWART-COLBERT and whatever other few “Libs” (in-quotes, since I don’t now know anymore whether STEWART is a Lib) there are, while I spend tons of time monitoring wingnuts and fulminating against them, helplessly. It’s more needed to gig than to fawn. The good people don’t need that much minding while the bad ones need SLAPPING DOWN, NOW! Idolatry rubs me wrong, and when I do it, it’s for a few who are long dead like FDR, or way way back.

Now, whenever something WAY exceptional happened, like COLBERT’s turn at the White House Correspondents Dinner, I go WOW! Whenever somebody mentions an exceptional segment, I watch the YouTube as much as my machine or Windows 7 allows, but no full shows.

He said, “I held the rally to show who I really am.” Well, I for one sort of thought I knew who Jon was, not that I had exactly pigeon-holed him before, but now that I think about what or who I thought he really was, I would say he was sort of what might be called “a Liberal gadfly,” and a really smart one, who could skewer wingnut ignorance, racism, and hatred like nobody else, but also those on the Left who committed some hypocrisy of their own: Really, a force for (purity?).

Instead, what we’re getting is somebody like a cartoon hermit/sage in a cave, an almighty PONTIFF talking down to us all about showing kindness towards ‘Baggers and Shrubs. My antennae actually went up back when he did the hit job on Crossfire, and at the rally where he featured the doofus from L.A. Law who wants a namby-pamby Third Way instead of clarity, my stomach tightened up.

His gripes are supposedly about (GRIPE 1) both the Wingnuts and the Left, that both “close down debate/discussion”, but he danced around when Rachel asked for specifics about the Left and he claimed that he was talking about EXTREMISTS on both sides who shout down speakers, but when she made the point that the Lefties who do that are “like, TWELVE ladies in Code Pink, compared to the entire (Faux) network,” he totally danced away and gave credence to the age-old canard of LIMBOsevic’s that the loudest Wingnuts are JUST ENTERTAINERS, not serious political types! Yeah-right.

(GRIPE 2) He gripes that we on the Left try to marginalize/delegitimate ‘Baggers by calling them ‘Baggers instead of stopping to wonder, Who are they, are they angry, why are they angry, let me talk to them. That we say we hate and demonize Shrub and CHEENEE, claiming (I would say “reporting”) that they lied us into the Iraq Attack and committed torture and other such things, while (Jon claims: ) Shrub didn’t stop with saying Saddam actually HAD WMD but rather went on to add the words, “is trying to RECONSTITUTE” his WMD resources so he didn’t totally LIE. He said Shrub is no Pol Pot. Oh, well then. But I would add that those twelve ladies in Code Pink are no Faux Network or LIMBOsevic either.

No, Jon, we suspect all too well what the ‘Baggers, Rethugs, and wingnuts are all about beyond their surface claims: Things like racism, xenophobism, and the logical extensions of all these really WOULD end up in something like Pol Pot. And as for Shrub-CHEENEE, if there are little words to nitpick about, that’s what footnotes are for, not for LEAVING OUT the WHOLE FREAKING SCREW JOB. There just doesn’t need to be that much PAUSING to meditate and reach out. There just doesn't need to be that much debate and discussion.

(GRIPE 3) Faux “is ideological but not partisan.” Wait, what?! He says Faux has been excellent at executing and marketing their product, which O’LOOFAH et al. have been saying for years in contrast to Lefty products, and that’s true.

(GRIPE 4) We and the media have been sold on “Liberal vs Conservative, Red vs Blue. It’s not about that, it’s about corruption vs not-corruption.” Umm-‘Kay. That’s fairly indisputable. We’ve always known that if every eligible voter actually did so there wouldn’t be a Rethug in office anywhere and that those maps of a “Red” continent with tiny pockets of “Blue” means geographic empty miles vs pockets of crammed actual population.

(GRIPE 5) But his big thing is that he deplores the 24 hour cycle of cable news that is built for earth shaking events like 9-11 or the O.J. murders but these events don’t happen every day so the cycle magnifies or augments/ every little thing that comes down the pike into SOUNDING like the big enchilada things. Fine. So would Jon propose dismanteling all the 24 hour outlets, INCLUDING Faux? What, exactly, does he propose, something like a czar of appropriateness?! It sounds like he’s bucking for THAT position himself.

But, repeating because it’s important, he ignores and diminishes the disproportion and inequality of the wingnut propaganda machine compared to the Left’s. His bottom line seems to be the Third Way B.S. No, Jon, I really DO believe there are enemies and pretty much understand them. And I’ll call them “HITLER” as shorthand.



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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. What difference does it make whether Stewart is a Liberal or a moderate...
We should not adhere to a Bushian "You are with us or against us" doctrine.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Clearly, I disagree. It's not a Shrub invention. It's used by anybody facing
real live threats to their well being or even existence (cf., Israel). Wingnuts and Baggers would literally, physically slap us in the face or stomp on our heads if they thought they could get away with it.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I know wingnuts and baggers...
I don't know any who would stomp on our heads ou slap us. There are some, as news stories show, but the vast majority just disagree with us.

I guess the word "tolernace" has dropped out of the lexicon.

And fear of the other has come rule us.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh fer fuck sake lighten up.
Watch or don't.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I forgot to check with you (and Jon) about what I should post or watch. n/t
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MrsCorleone Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. +1.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. You're mischaracterizing Stewart
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 05:19 PM by jpgray
Take two pols who faced accusations of sexual harassment. Okay?

Now consider whether FOX will make snide remarks about Clarence Thomas on that basis. Consider whether MSBC will make snide remarks about Clinton on that basis. Now reverse that, and suddenly it becomes far more likely.

The overweening desire to focus on narratives, to yoke, flog and drive the shit out of any event for hours of broadcast time, no matter how disproportional the coverage is to the actual event, is what Stewart finds reprehensible. Bill Ayers? John McCain's houses? Sarah Palin's tweets? Whether Obama bows or not? Tell me this is not happening. Tell me that it gets to the heart of the real issues that drive this country.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, I didn't mis characterize or even disagree with a couple of his points that you repeated.
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 05:34 PM by UTUSN
I specifically summarized his gripe about the over-blowing of junk in the 24-hr format. And I agreed that the Red-Blue thing is a fake representation and I agreed that Faux is EXCELLENT at doing what they do, it's just that I detest what they do and their success and excellence in doing it.

MY criticisms of Jon are the same as Rachel's, that he EQUALIZES the scope and venom on Left and Wingnut "sides." False equivalency. "12 ladies in Code Pink" versus LIMBOsevic, HANNITY, G. Gordon LIDDY, Mark LEVINE, BecKKK, INGRAHAM, COULTERgeist, PALIN, and all the rest, ad infinitum.


If you are saying I demonize, yes I do absolutely and I don't need to check with Jon or the dweeb from L.A. Law about being civil to people who would dearly like to stomp on my head if they could get away with it.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. But not every GOP voter wants to stomp on your head
Not every GOP voter is buying in fully, or even substantially, with GOP ideology. The polling shows this clearly. The encouragement to generalize the worst and attribute it to the whole group is a major effect of cable news' overblown trivia.

Now of course it is true that the GOP gives more prominence to the worst and that their worst is worse than our worst. Maddow was absolutely right that equating Code Pink with the corporate-organized Tea Party is ridiculous, and she was also right that extreme voices on the left and right exist, but are only substantially represented in the leadership on the right.

That's absolutely correct, but I don't think Stewart is arguing for precise equivalence. He sees it as a harmful tendency on both sides, not that both sides are equally harmful. If you watch his show, there's no equivalence in his criticism of FOX and MSNBC. He does not criticize Democrats and Republicans with the same vehemence or in the same amounts at all. But similar bad habits, similar problems, exist on both sides.

It isn't fair to focus on our foibles as much as the right's exactly because there is a difference of proportion there. There is a difference in harm done there. But we do have foibles, and they do harm.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I specifically name wingnuts, TeaBaggers, and other extremists in my vitriol
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 05:56 PM by UTUSN
I never said "all GOP" although I often say that an early stage of a world view can be expanded to its logical outcomes, such that I willingly grant that Shrub is not Pol Pot or HITLER or STALIN or whomever, but we are on a stage. Shrub and CHEENEE might not be Pol Pot RIGHT NOW, but their policies, if unfettered, might be extended into the Pol Pot range. In a literal game ofr chess, the white and the black aren't Pol Pot but the object is to win. So in my little corner of my world I attack 'Baggers and Wingnuts. That's MY proportion.

It is a time honored description of the difference between Right and Left that the latter LOOKS WITHIN for its own foibles and for the root causes of problems while the Right doesn't. I have never ever claimed that everybody on my side of politics is Correct about everything. In fact, I have been flamed here for my Primaries choices of Dems and for not giving passes to Dems who are wrong or criminal.

We're close to proving that not all discussion is valuable and that there really is a varying length to different topics. Some of the signs are when points have to be repeated.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I was a Kucinich guy in '04 and '08
Forget GOP voters--not all of those who identify with Tea Party people match our caricature of the group, which is based on awfulness that certainly is there. As Stewart said, some just want smaller government.

I posted a thread about our "looking within," because I think we don't do that as much as we like to think. Certainly we are reluctant to use the bluntest language regarding -our- party's acceptance of civilians piloting drones to blow up houses in a country against which we have no authorization to use force. If I wanted to debate that issue here, I wouldn't start an OP titled: "Obama sends out robots that murder children in Pakistan," right?

We look within more than the GOP, certainly. But isn't that a fairly low bar to set? I think people associate a lack of nastiness with equivocation, when they are not the same things at all. You can hold strong beliefs and strike a contrast with nastiness--that can be a powerful thing. MLK's message wouldn't have been improved by demonizing his enemies at every juncture, even though he had every right to. His refusal to do so doesn't mean he was a mealy-mouthed chump without any strong views, and his refusal seems so incredibly noble when I watch people cling to their petty insults in pretense of being "tough," without facing anything on the level of the nastiness he faced.

I just reject the compulsion to be vicious, especially when we're claiming moral superiority. That superiority doesn't hold so long as we maintain a level of nastiness below the other side's--slinging sexist insults at Palin or homophobic slurs at Larry Craig isn't superior just because such people are harmful. More than that, it just isn't necessary or even useful.
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LawnLover Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Get over yourself
Stewart was right, and you obviously missed the WHOLE POINT of what he was trying to say.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Your appreciation of Jon's not-shutting-down-debate is really something. n/t
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LawnLover Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'm not stopping you from debating, am I?
Apparently not.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ha! I made a similar point in my email to Rachel,
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 06:14 PM by EFerrari
that Stewart gives no sign of understanding the power differential in the media.

I said I'd stop calling George Bush a war criminal from the gallery when Code Pink gets its own House caucus like the tea baggers have.

lol

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Great minds think alike except on the topic of That Man who shan't be named!1
Thanks for always constructive, intelligent, and On-Topic post!1
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. You have just proved his very point about the left
You, like many others are too busy playing the us-vs-them game, while most elected officials on both parties have no principles are selling you out to whatever big business wants.

I would honestly vote for Ron Paul over half of the democratic congresspersons because that guy has principles. I disagree with most of his principles, but unlike most elected officials he has them and sticks to them. I know he won't bend legislation because the industry wishes it so, if he votes a certain way he votes that way because he believes it.
He doesn't claim to have principles only to come into office to start getting friendly with corporate lobbyists, watering down or stopping good ideas for the rest of us one at a time. Elected officials in BOTH parties do it. Most elected officials in both parties do it.

Why else would a toothless healthcare reform bill get watered down even further before becoming law while we're getting worse healthcare than many other countries and paying twice as much $$$ out of our own pockets for it? 'Our' guys didn't even have the guts to force a filibuster before watering it down.

And I am not defending the crazies on the right. There are a bunch of people there that are just plain idiots. There are some very vocal idiots. But maybe, just maybe... Some people on the other end are disillusioned and frustrated with the government and in large part because of the same corruption, even if it is for different reasons.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Jon has no point about the left. Ducking a conflict doesn't make it go away
unless you're two and still thinking magically.
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