"in most ways the European right is to the left of the Democratic Party, which is fairly startling."

[Better Believe It]

Why on Earth Would Americans Vote the Old Bush-Cheney Agenda Back into Power? Europeans Are Perplexed
Even conservatives in Europe are scratching their heads over their transatlantic allies who appear to hate the idea of cheaper, universal health care.
By Steven Hill
November 12, 2010

While participating in a conference in Budapest in September, where prominent conservative leaders and thinkers were in attendance, including the president of the European Parliament and two prime ministers, some of the most eye-opening comments had to do with new perceptions about America. One speaker, Christian Stoffaes, who is chairman of the Center for International Prospective Studies based in Paris, stated the "United States is in disarray, extremely polarized. It is practically a civil war there, and you can't count on it."

This theme was echoed by others speakers, who went even further. One said "We need to shift our emphasis eastward (towards Asia) and not wait for the Obama administration." I found these statements to be surprising, and even vaguely alarming, given the importance of the transatlantic relationship in the post-World War II era. But there was a widespread view that the US is being consumed by the severity of the Great Recession, brought on by a broken Wall Street capitalism, as well as by the quagmires of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, and an inability to change course.

Previously, Obama’s failure at the Copenhagen summit on climate change to deliver a serious commitment to that agenda, and instead to strike a deal with the Chinese to do next to nothing, was a real wakeup call to the Europeans. It was as if they suddenly “got” it, that it wasn’t George W. Bush who was the problem, but something more profound about America’s broken political system that prevents any leader, even one as talented as Obama, from delivering. That political system is marinated in money, is paralyzed by a “filibuster-gone-wild” Senate that has allowed a minority of Senators to obstruct all legislation, and is hamstrung by a sclerotic, winner-take-all, two-party electoral system that has left voters poorly represented and deeply frustrated.

Keep in mind that these were the conservatives of Europe venting at this conference, who currently are in control of the European Parliament, the European Commission, as well as the governments in Germany, France, Britain, Sweden and elsewhere. The European right is nowhere near as conservative as the Tea Partiers or GOP Congress members. Indeed, in most ways the European right is to the left of the Democratic Party, which is fairly startling to contemplate. If European conservatives were allowed to vote in America’s November 2 election, there is no doubt how they would have voted.

Read the full article at:

http://www.alternet.org/world/148841/why_on_earth_would_americans_vote_the_old_bush-cheney_agenda_back_into_power_europeans_are_perplexed

[Wounded Bear]

1. And the American Right will consider this a badge of honor....

:shrug:

[Better Believe It]

4. I know. They would like to lead world-wide reactionary politics.

[Wounded Bear]

5. "Like to"?......are is more accurate, I think....nt

[pnorman]

16. Another thing those TEABAGGERS would consider a "Badge of Honor":

In most of Europe, those who vociferously proclaim themselves as "Christians" are a far lower percentage of the general population as here. But there's hope yet! The percentage of "None Of The Above" here has more or less DOUBLED in the past decade, going from about 8% to about 15%!!

Note: I have a few friends who self-identify as`"Right Wing", but we can still discourse in a civil manner. So to point out the distinction, I'll refer to the others as "Teabaggers", or better yet "Fundies"

[SidDithers]

2. Unrec...nt

Sid

[Gold Metal Flake]

37. Rec...nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Hey, you. Say something. Prove you're not a bot. -nt

[Vincardog]

43. REC +1 The rightward course of American Politics can ONLY end in BLOODY conflict

[superduperfarleft]

50. Why on Earth would you unrec this?

Is there something in particular that you disagree with?

[inna]

52. Rec. ... Thank God I'm not Sid.

[DJ13]

3. Rec

Still not Sid.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mimosa]

40. I think that must be true.

I also think the article is true, based on what my European friends say.

[axollot]

47. Agreed and posted about this earlier today. Had not even seen this article

at the time. I've known enough about Euro politics to know these about where we stand. Teabaggers are further right than the BNP in my humble opinion. They are considered insane in some places at least. The Tories are bad but still better than the Pugs.

Cheers
Sandy

[Mimosa]

58. Totally agree.

A Tory is like a conservative Dem here.

[xchrom]

6. Depending on which European right we are describing - the

European right is still neo-liberal.

Much like what the democratic party here enmeshed in.

That's the conversation we should be having.

Is their right to the left of the American right?
Sort of.

[Better Believe It]

7. He is writing about conservative leaders in the European Parliament and heads of governments in

Germany, France, Britain and Sweden.

[xchrom]

14. I know what he is talking about - which

Is why I broke it down the way I did.

[Capn Sunshine]

8. Isn't the European right just a teensy bit harsh?

just sayin'

[Better Believe It]

10. They certainly were .... 70 years ago. But how do they compare today?

I don't think all of the European conservative government leaders can be compared to Hitler unless calling every conservative in sight a Nazis makes people feel good.

Angela Merkel, she not only speaks German she is German. Hotsie totsie, she must be a Nazi!

Ahhhh .... nothing like letting off a little steam.

And making the term Nazis pretty much meaningless.

But, it felt good!

And that's what's really important, feeling good, and not serious political analysis and understanding.

[Capn Sunshine]

18. How does the right compare anywhere? They are pressuring society on behalf of the corporations.

Follow the money.

[whathehell]

30. How do they compare today?

check it out yourself..

http://www.google.com/search?q=european+right+wing&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GWYE

http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/11/the_right_rises_with_anti-muslim_backlash_in_europe_and_america.html


They've certainly been busy.

[whathehell]

79. Not the german neo-nazis so much...

http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2010/11/04/15960631.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/7986844/German-police-raid-neo-Nazi-group.html

:shrug:

[Wounded Bear]

9. Just look at Arnold Schwarzenegger...

Ran as a Repub, and was mostly "conservative" but in so many ways he was actually kind of liberal.

[eridani]

25. Good point. Ahnold is defintely a Euroconserative n/t

[DirkGently]

11. "marinated in money, is paralyzed by a “filibuster-gone-wild” Senate"

. . . sounds about right.

[Greyhound]

12. K&R

[RelativelyJones]

13. Cherry picking

You can't say that the European right is Angela Merkel, Sarkozy and David Cameron, and that's where it ends. The increasingly large, powerful and assertive right in Europe is virulently anti-immigrant and regressive - - and far to the right of the Democratic Party (as we should expect). Statements like this just whitewash the European right, and they don't deserve it.

[Better Believe It]

15. He is writing about the political right that actually holds political power. Yes, one can

make and should make a distinction between the extreme right-wing neo-fascist organizations and the more traditional conservative parties and leaders in Europe that run governments, don't ya think? That's hardly whitewashing the neo-fascist movements you describe. They are not merely conservatives like those that hold power.

And we should make the same distinctions in the United States.

Do you want to mix and jumble them all up and call it a mass Nazis/fascist movement that is running major nations in Europe and ran the United States when Ronald Reagan and the Bushes were President?

That's rather simplistic and doesn't really explain or clarify anything about Nazism and fascism, does it?

But, if you want to run around screaming fascist at every conseervative in the United States or Europe you may.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. But they don't hold political power and largely considered to be wackos

If you look closely at the policies of the Cameron and Merkel governments, for example, you see policies that would be considered "far left" in the U.S.

[Better Believe It]

20. Exactly right. But, don't underestimate them .... they are trying to build mass movements with

popular support and are making some progress.

[BlueMTexpat]

28. Well, there is the European Right and the European "Reich,"

although the "Reichers" style themselves differently, of course. The European Reich is just as bad as it always was. Yes, it's still here, and it is to the right of the wildest of the Tea Baggers, if that can be imagined. Fortunately, it is still in the minority, for the most part, although it has gained traction in the Netherlands and other countries recently, in large part due to the influx of immigrants from non-European countries. It is especially ironic when one considers that the Netherlands has historically been one of the most liberal countries in Europe.

America's radical rightward shift is indeed worrying to the "mainstream" European right, however, and I believe that was the main point of the OP.

[olegramps]

32. Europeans are concerned about immigrants is not solely based on prejudice.

What some of my relatives have expressed is their concern that Muslims have not been assimilated into the society and they fear that they want to create a theocracy. Perhaps their fears are exaggerated just as those held by right wing Americans extremists. However, when you look at countries with a Muslim majority they are indeed virtual theocracies. Turkey, which was forced into the 20th century and became the only secular Muslim country is reverting to control by the clergy.

[Better Believe It]

35. That's riight. It's also based on bigotry.

The far right stirs up that sort of crap and uses it to divide people and divert attention from those who are responsible for the economic crisis.

[olegramps]

72. Am I guilty of bigotry when I oppose use of taxes for religious schools.

[Turborama]

65. Actually, the Republicans are probably jealous of what Cameron is doing to Britain at the moment

And taking notes.


Anyone who thinks the Tories are anything like the Democratic party are very sadly mistaken.

[ClayZ]

17. One of our customers today was,

a 21 year old (YOUNG) lady from Isreal. She has been hitch-hiking her way around the world since she was 17. She told us (in Seattle WA) that of all the countries she had been to, the USA was the "Least Free" of them all. She was lovely, and her comments made me sad.

[proteus_lives]

27. She must of skipped large portions of the world.

Or been oblivious.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. In Israel when I was way younger than her...

I was taught to shoot an Uzi just to take a ride north, was searched in a room alone with a soldier, kept under curfew, heard the shelling of Syria, watched 'arabs' get called dogs, you name it.
If she were to speak with the Israeli ex-pats in the US, and ask them why they came here, they would mention terms such as 'check points' and perhaps note that the Mrs is Palestinian. Freedom can be relative to one's passport in some places. To be blunt, as the Palestinians how free Israel is, ask the Roma how liberal Sarkozy is. They are the ones with the right answer. And they would not agree with the jet setting young lady, I think.

[DutchLiberal]

67. She should visit Gaza and the West Bank sometimes...

She wouldn't make that statement anymore.

[Gabi Hayes]

21. n m

[laughingliberal]

22. K & R nt

[defendandprotect]

23. We now have a right wing party and a radical right wing ... so if Obam is in the center of it ....

OUCH ... !!

[Crunchy Frog]

24. Americans have the attention span of guppies.

They are also among the most heavily and successfully propagandized people on the planet. This doesn't surprise me at all. There's very little in common anymore between our country and the European democracies.

[whathehell]

33. Have you made a comparison study of the attention span of America and other countries?

Or is this just another "Europe is heaven -- We suck" line.:eyes:

[Crunchy Frog]

77. I stand by my contention that this country is far more disfunctional

than most of Europe.

[whathehell]

78. Well, that's great...I'm sure creationists and birthers "stand by" their contentions too

It simply doesn't amount to much without backup.:shrug:

[mr blur]

26. I'd say Cameron and Obama are just about in the same place -

what I'd call centre-Right.

[old mark]

29. Wait a few years when Rupert Murdoch declares himself Emperor of America..

See how right we can really go!
Back to Feudalism!

mark

[tomp]

31. somebody gets it. nt

[pampango]

36. "We need to shift our emphasis eastward (towards Asia) and not wait for the Obama administration."

A sign of the times that Europe keeps opening its trade and immigration both on the continent and with countries elsewhere.

The EU is continually expanding as more countries are allowed to join it. Several more in the Baltics are poised to become the latest countries to enter the EU, though they may never allow Turkey to join.

They recently signed a trade deal with South Korea and are negotiating ones with India and Canada. While we seem to turn ever more inward in search of solutions to our problems, they seem to search for solutions to theirs by looking to open up even more to other countries.

If the 21st century does become an Asian century economically, it will be interesting to see whether the US' or Europe's strategy for prospering works better.

[AllyCat]

41. We seem to be largely a country of wingnuts and super wingnuts

and the few on the left who continue to oppose them all. Then we are asked to compromise.

[leeroysphitz]

42. Sobering. n/t

[Turborama]

44. The ConDem coalition in Britain seem to be following the same route the Teahadists want to go down

That's just one example of how far right the Cons in Europe are tilting. Even the Dutch and French governments are coming out with populist measures to please the far right.

This "Conservatives in Europe = US Deomcrats" paradigm is shifting.

[DutchLiberal]

68. Right on the Dutch and the French, horribly wrong on the British...

Nothing to back up such an outrageous claim.

[Turborama]

70. Nothing to back up such an outrageous claim? Haven't you been following what's been going on?

Here's just the latest news: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4613691

Older article which will help you catch up: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081802651.html

I can find a lot more, if that's not enough.

Horribly wrong, yourself.

On edit, here's some more back up...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/opinion/2010/10/21/alan-johnson-writes-tory-spending-review-is-a-recipe-for-unemployment-115875-22647890/

http://www.politics.co.uk/features/economy-and-finance/spending-review-alan-johnson-statement-in-full-$21384991.htm

[DutchLiberal]

75. Those are just regular, normal conservative policies...

What else did you expect from the Tories? Nothing weird or exceptional about that at all.

But it reflects in NO WAY the Tea Party or the Republican Party.

So your comment about the conservatives in the UK being akin to the "Teahadists" is completely wrong.

[Turborama]

81. The Teahadists want "smaller government", that is exactly what the coalition's massive cuts are for

Therefore, my original statement is true: "The ConDem coalition in Britain seem to be following the same route the Teahadists want to go down"

I'll go further, the ConDem coalition are acting out the Teahadist's stated fantasies.

I didn't say there is anything "weird or exceptional" about it, but now you come to mention it, the Liberal Democrats being so exceptionally far up the Tories' asses is weird for British politics.

So, your knowledge of what's going on in British and/or American politics in this respect is either completely wrong or just non existent.

[DutchLiberal]

83. The "Teahadists" want a theocracy; and end to the separation of church and state...

And more of that religious fundamentalist nonsense. "Smaller government" is as much a talking point of mainstream, normal conservatives as it is of the Teabaggers. The Teabaggers are not known for their smaller government themes, but for their batshit crazy stuff. That's why the equation was and still is horrible false.

[Turborama]

85. Adding those wishes of theirs doesn't make my original statement & evidence I gave "horribly false"

Many of the things the coalition are doing are the same things the Teahadists would love to do in America. You said "Nothing to back up such an outrageous claim" & "it reflects in NO WAY the Tea Party or the Republican Party" and now "The Teabaggers are not known for their smaller government themes".




I have already provided you with a couple of clear examples (unprecedented cuts across the public sector and literally putting the health of the nation in the hands of fast foods companies), you throwing in the religion thing doesn't negate that. It's just clasping at straws.

Here's one more example which you can't, but probably will try to, deny. If you don't know anything about a certain situation, inform yourself about it...

Tea party groups push GOP to quit culture wars, focus on deficit
In a letter to Republican leaders, tea party members advise the GOP to avoid culture-war social issues such as gay rights and abortion and to focus on reducing deficit and role of government.

By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer / November 15, 2010

Representatives of the loosely organized tea party movement urged GOP leaders in a letter released Monday to abandon their fronts in the culture wars – issues such as gay marriage, school prayer, and abortion – and instead focus their new electoral power on individual liberties and "economic freedoms."

http://www.politico.com/static/PPM153_tea.html">The letter, signed by 16 tea party groups and a conservative gay organization, points to an emerging rift between the tea party movement and the GOP, which still counts social conservatives seeking "moral government" as a key constituency.

The signatories, ranging from conservative commentator Tammy Bruce to local tea party group leaders, say the key lesson the GOP should draw from the election is that Americans are concerned chiefly about taxes and the size of government, not their neighbors' lifestyle choices or personal decisions.

But the push to quit the culture wars is already meeting resistance from mainstream Republicans, who worry about a rebellion from social conservatives if the party refrains from taking stands on moral issues.

Continues: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Election-2010/Tea-Party-Tally/2010/1115/Tea-party-groups-push-GOP-to-quit-culture-wars-focus-on-deficit

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it now. Or, are you a fan of Cameron and Clegg and have an irresistible urge to defend them?

[BrklynLiberal]

45. I am not startled. It is a sad, sad comment on politics in this country.

As the Dems moved to the right..in order to "Win" the votes, the Right/Repukes had to keep moving more Right in order to differentiate itself from the right-leaning Dems.

If the Dems had not INSISTED on moving to the "middle", which actually was to the right...the Right/repukes might not have felt compelled to become this ridiculous parody of a Conservative political party.

[Aaria]

46. They own the voting machines, they put in who they want. The more

disruption they can cause the better.

[cooolandrew]

48. All the industrial developed world is to the left of the US even with conservative government.

[indimuse]

49. KNR! n/t

[Denzil_DC]

51. Anyone who believes this has a very selective view of the European right

Unrec.

[Better Believe It]

53. Don't you understand the difference between fascists and traditional conservatives?

He is writing about the political right that actually holds political power in Europe. He was not writing about the assorted neo-Nazis and neo-fascist wannabes that hope to win control of government sometime in the future. So he was being selective and there is nothing wrong with that. The author can and probably will write about fascist organizations on another day.

But again, do you understand the difference or just pretending not to?

One can make and should make a distinction between the extreme right-wing neo-fascist organizations and the more traditional conservative parties and leaders in Europe that run governments, don't ya think? And we should make the same distinctions in the United States.

If you want to mix and stir up in a bowl every organization, political party and leader in Europe who is to the right of social democrats and call it a fascist stew for simplicity and to confuse yourself, feel free. But, that doesn't really explain or clarify anything about Nazism, fascism and other political forces on the right, does it?

[Denzil_DC]

55. Don't patronize me. I actually live in Europe. n/t

[Better Believe It]

59. So what? Your residence in Europe does not automatically make you an expert on fascism.

Your geographic location should make it easier for you to understand the difference between traditional European conservatives and authentic fascists but apparently it hasn't.

And why do I think that?

Well, you attacked the author because he didn't write about European fascist organizations and restricted his article to information on traditional conservative leaders and parties in Europe!

Well, I'm waiting to find out what you think about his views on European conservatives.

Do you have an opinion on that?

I'm listening.

[Denzil_DC]

60. Nah, you know it all.

That's obvious from your replies to others above who've offered views counter to yours, so I can't be bothered.

[Better Believe It]

63. Hardly. I asked for your opinion on the writers views and you ignored the question.

Instead you launched a broadside attack on the author for not writing about a different subject, fascist organizations!

So once again I will ask.

What you think about the writers views on European conservatives who are in power?

I'm listening.

[swilton]

54. I don't find this startling at all

however, I spent a lot of time in Oklahoma and the southeastern US. I have also met a lot of foreign graduate students from not just Europe but South America, Korea, China.

[LWolf]

56. Not startling to anyone paying attention. nt

[paparush]

57. Because Psy-Ops works! Endless broadcasting of lies and fear works.

[beforeyoureyes]

61. "As talented as Obama???"

If Obama was so talented, this conversation wouldn't have happened. He sold to the corporate masters and never even TRIED to rally the people for a fight against entrenched corporate interests.

[beforeyoureyes]

62. "As talented as Obama???"

If Obama was so talented, this conversation wouldn't have happened. He sold to the corporate masters and never even TRIED to rally the people for a fight against entrenched corporate interests.

[Better Believe It]

64. He is very talented. Just ask the people he works for.

[DutchLiberal]

66. The Dutch right-wing parties can be compared to the Democratic Party...

... but Dutch conservatives are mostly non-religious, staunch defenders of the separation of church and state, and believe in gay rights (like the right to marry and to serve openly in the military). Economically speaking, the Democrats in the US are mirror images of their Dutch right-wing colleagues.. which is sad for all those supporters of the Democrats who believe they're working for the working and middle class...

[DutchLiberal]

69. You're right, if you're not including Italy's Berlusconi and his fascist coalition partners...

And no, 'fascist' is not just hyperbole, but that's what his coalition party Lega Nord actually is.

[Better Believe It]

71. I missed the pitched battles in the street between the fascist storm troopers and massive union

defense guards and strikes.

When did the Italian fascists take power and destroy all progressive and mass workers organizations?

[DutchLiberal]

74. Sarcasm only works when it's not misplaced...

Yours is.

If you don't know anything about a certain situation, inform yourself about it before making belittling wise-cracks.

Read up on fascism. It's a political philosophy. It's not only 20th century brown-shirts who can be fascists. If you think that (and you obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a foolish post), you're sadly mistaken. You should watch the Italian documentary 'Videocracy', and you'll see the 21st century fascist openly confess their love for Benito Mussolini and his policies.

[Better Believe It]

80. Fascism has not been victorious in Italy.

From what I have read, the Italian "radical" left is small and weak and the old "left" political parties and labor unions have not effectively organized against the far right in Italy and have grown increasingly conservative in their politics and program.

One major problem is that the main labor federations have failed to unite and organize mass resistance against the employers offensive to drive down wages. A few major ones are actually collaborating with the employers in their campaign to reduce labor costs!

That's not going to stop the far right or their austerity drive.

But, the authentic Italian fascists have not won that war and the ruling class doesn't yet need them to destroy workers organizations.

They seem to be doing just fine .... so far.

That is my point.

And what really annoys me is people running around screaming "fascist" at any right-wing political leader, organization or government without the slightest understanding about what fascism is and the history of it.

You don't think George W. Bush was/is a fascist, do you?

I hope not.

And if not, good! Perhaps we're really not so far apart.

And if you do think Bush or McCain is a fascist, I suggest you do some serious reading on fascism.

[DutchLiberal]

82. Don't judge me by what others are saying/doing...

And what really annoys me is people running around screaming "fascist" at any right-wing political leader, organization or government without the slightest understanding about what fascism is and the history of it.

That's not what I'm doing. I never do that. And that makes it so typical that I *do* call Berlusconi's coalition-partners fascists. Because that's what they're calling themselves. That's what they're called in the Dutch media. The Dutch media *never* call anybody a fascist simply for being far right. But when they call themselves fascists, then why shouldn't I?

[Better Believe It]

84. I didn't know. That's why I asked you .....

"You don't think George W. Bush was/is a fascist, do you?

I hope not.

And if not, good! Perhaps we're really not so far apart."

While you didn't directly answer my question, it seems that you're not one of those that loves tossing the word fascist around against any and all right-wingers and their organizations.

[conspirator]

73. Except for Italy and Austria. Their right wing is as fascist as it gets n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. This is telling

"The United States is in disarray, extremely polarized. It is practically a civil war there, and you can't count on it."

If they can smell it... how far until we go hot?