Interrogation Nation (Dahlia Lithwick for SLATE)

[Solly Mack]

The old adage held that if they couldn't get you for the crime, they would get you for the coverup. But this week, it was revealed that both the crime and the coverup will go permanently unpunished. Which suggests that everything in between will go unpunished as well.

-SNIP-

The U.S. flirtation with torture is not locked in the past or in the black sites or prisons at which it occurred. Now more than ever, it's feted on network television and held in reserve for the next president who persuades himself that it's not illegal after all.

-SNIP-

It has taken this issue from a legal question to a matter of personal taste. What we choose to define as torture is now just another policy disagreement, like extending the Bush tax cuts or picking a caterer. This is precisely the kind of sliding-scale ethical guesswork the rule of law should preclude.

-SNIP-

Yet having denied any kind of reckoning for every actor up and down the chain of command, we are now farther along the road toward normalizing and accepting torture than we were back in November 2005, when President Bush could announce unequivocally (if falsely) that "The United States of America does not torture. And that's important for people around the world to understand." If people around the world didn't understand what we were doing then, they surely do now. And if Americans didn't accept what we were doing then, evidently they do now. Doing nothing about torture is, at this point, pretty much the same as voting for it. We are all water-boarders now.

[leftstreet]

1. "it's legal if my lawyer tells me it's legal"

And there Yoo have it

Good article and interesting comments section

K&R

[Solly Mack]

2. That didn't work at Nuremberg. Hiding behind lawyers

who - themselves - acted in a criminal conspiracy to commit war crimes. Just as the Bush DOJ did.

The Reich's 'DOJ' charged http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=nur_13tr

Reich Minister of Justice: Franz Guertner, 1932-41; Franz Schlegelberger (acting), 1941-42, Otto Thierack, 1942-45
Civil Law and Procedure Division: Josef Altstoetter
Penal Administration Division: Karl Engert


Altstoetter, Josef (def. NMT 3): Chief of the Civil Law and Procedure Division, Ministry of Justice
Ammon, Wilhelm von (def. NMT 3): Criminal Legislation and Administration Division, Ministry of Justice
Barnickel, Paul (def. NMT 3): Senior Public Prosecutor of the People's Court
Cuhorst, Hermann (def. NMT 3): Chief Justice of Special Court, Stuttgart
Engert, Karl (def. NMT 3): Chief of Penal Administration Division and Inmate Transfer Division, Ministry of Justice
Guenther, Joel (def. NMT 3): Legal adviser (prosecution) to Minister of Justice, Chief Public Prosecutor of Westphalia
Guertner, Franz: Minister of Justice, 1932-41
Klemm, Herbert (def. NMT 3): State Secretary and director of Legal Education and Training, Ministry of Justice
Mettgenberg, Wolfgang (def. NMT 3): Criminal Legislation and Administration Division, Ministry of Justice
Nebelung, Guenther (def. NMT 3): Chief Justice of Fourth Senate of the People's Court
Oeschey, Rudolf (def. NMT 3): Judge and Chief Justice of the Special Court, Nuremberg
Rothenberger, Curt (def. NMT 3): State Secretary of the Ministry of Justice
Schlegelberger, Franz (def. NMT 3): State Secretary and acting Minister of Justice, 1941-42
Thierack, Otto: Minister of Justice, 1942-45 (d. 1946)
Westphal, Carl (def. NMT 3): Criminal Legislation and Administration Division, Ministry of Justice


From the Library of Congress
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_Indictments.pdf#page=21

1. Between January 1933 ans April 1945 all of the defendanfs herein, a!=fing'pursuant to a common design, unlawfully, wilfully, and knowingly, did conspire and agree together and with each other and with div!ilrs,
. other persons, to commit War Crimes and Crimes .against Humanify,as
defined in Control Council Law No.1 0, Article II..
2.
Throughout, the period covered by this Indidmenf all of fhe de;. feridants herein, acting in concert with each other and with othe~s, urilawfully, wilfully, and knowingly were principals in, accessor'ies to, ordered, .abefled, took a consenting part in, and were conneded with -plans' and enterprises involving, the commission of War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity. ..
3.
All of the defendants herein, acting in' concerl with each other and with others, unlawfully, wilfully, and kn'owinglyparticipated" as leaders, organizers, instigators, and accomplices in the formulation and execution of the said common design, conspiracy, plans, and enterprises to commit, and which involved the commission of, War Crimes 'and Gimes against Humanity, and accordingly are individually responsible
,for .their own aels and for all acts performed by any-person or persons,
in.exefution of the said common design, conspiracy, plans, and ~nh;~rpnses.
4.
Tlie said common design, conspiracy; plans, and enterprises
embraced the commission ·of War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity,
as set forth in Counts +WO and Three of this Indictment, in that the
de;fendants unlawfully, Wilfully, and knowingly encouraged, aided, abetted,
and participated in the commission of atrocities and offenses against
persons and properly, including plunder'of private property, murder,
exterinination, enslavement, deportation, unlawful imprisonment, torture,
.. persecutions on political, racial, and religious grounds, and ill-treatm~nt ' , of, and other inhumane acts against thousands of persons, including German civilians, nationals of other countries, and prisoners of war.
. _5. It was a part of the said common design, conspiracy, plans, an'd
~nterprises to enact, issue, enforce, and give effect to certain purported
statutes,. decrees, and orde'rs, which were criminal both .in inception and
execution, and, to work with the Gestapo, SS, SO, SIPO, and RSHA

[Solly Mack]

4. More...

6. The said common design, conspiracy, plans, and 'enterprises embraced the 'assumption by the 'Reich Ministry ~f JustiC:e of total control of the AdmiriistrCl.tion of Justice,. including preparation of legislation concerning -<Jill branches of law, and control of the courts and prisons. ,The supreme administration of justice in all German states was trans, ferred to the-Reich Ministry of Justice in 1934. Thereupon, certain extraondinary courts of a predominantly political nature, ,with wide and arbitrary criminal jurisdiction, were superimposed upon the existing or'dinary court system.

16.The Ministry of Justice granted immunity to and amnesty followlng prosecutions and convictions of Nazi Parfy members for major crimes committed against civilians' of occupied territories.Pardons were granted to members of the Party who nad been sentenced for proved offenses.

[Call Me Wesley]

8. You know that the last one of those was released in 1957.

Most of them in 1950 if they got sentenced at all. And they were happy to practice law again.
That is still a very dark place within German history. It's still 'Don't ask, don't tell' there.

K&R

[Solly Mack]

10. Thanks, CMW

I never ask...but, sometimes, older Germans would talk...mostly when Bush was in office. He made them very uncomfortable. Didn't happen often but when it did I listened... and listened closely.

[bemildred]

3. Kick. nt

[Solly Mack]

6. Thanks

[Gabi Hayes]

5. that's all going to change in about two months, or so. thing is, it won't be the

former junta under investigation....

[puebloknot]

7. I'm waiting for "First, they came for the water-boarders ...

... but I was not a water-boarder, so I said nothing." Kind of reverse justice.

But nobody's coming. And I'm a delusional WWII army brat with memories of Nuremberg and all that.

Soylent Green in lieu of justice? Hope groweth dim. (But hope has its good and its bad days, so pay no attention to me.)

Ich bin ein wasser-boarder!!!! Has a nice ring, doesn't it? And it makes one feel as if they *belong* to something big and important and on the move! (And there will not be a test.)

[ProgressIn2008]

9. "Doing nothing about torture is... pretty much the same as voting for it." Time we said it.

K&R, with sorrow.