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I'm tired of hearing that decency in argument is a slave morality

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:16 PM
Original message
I'm tired of hearing that decency in argument is a slave morality
I miss focus, precision and clarity in political argument. I dislike smug hot air and gloating over trivial narratives. I hate a pumped up atmosphere of tribalism, which values strength of belief by exclusivity and belligerence alone.

Have you ever read Murrow's report of Buchenwald? Not a single bit of explicit raging against the Germans. No pejoratives, no hyperbolic condemnations, no bluster. All it contains is what he saw and felt. Yet his words damn the Germans indelibly.

He refuses to apologize if anyone is offended, but why would anyone be offended? Not because he did anything so easy as using a vicious word, but because he revealed a hideous truth to the world. The bare facts he related represent a greater condemnation than any editorial harrumphing on his part ever could. Read it if you haven't:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/murrow.html

And that's his report on -Nazis-, on genocide. I'm led to think of how Olbermann can get into a pious froth on marginal tweets from Sarah Palin. I just can't see that as worth the air time, but more importantly it is all out of proportion. I'm led to think of DU as well. If your dial has to go all the way up every time a Juan Williams comes along, how can you give proportional weight to a vast human tragedy? If you condemn Jon Stewart in the harshest terms possible, how do you proportionally dial up your condemnations for -truly evil people-?

Some here think the answer to bullies is to make our own bullies. That's nonsense. The way to stop a bully isn't to become a bully yourself, but to erode the bully's support. You do that by drawing a contrast. You do that by making the viciousness clear to people. You make the bully hideous in his cruelty. No epithets are necessary for this. In fact, you undermine the entire effort if you're addicted to engaging in viciousness and cruelty yourself. The fact that we are and will -always- be less vicious and cruel than the GOP is immaterial. The reasons for dismissing the worst bully will resemble those for dismissing the lesser, and your attacks will always be dismissed by the bully's followers on that basis. It doesn't matter if you're demonstrably less of an asshole, so long as you are an asshole there will be an excuse to ignore what you say.

Too many people have this bizarrely-weighted continuum of advocacy, that goes from a caricature of Booker T to a caricature of Malcolm X, and doesn't recognize anything in the middle whatever. As that idea goes, you are either a mealy-mouthed chump of equivocating weakness or an epithet-spewing tough who actually stands for something. It's absolute nonsense.

You want some examples of how to treat bullies? The first is from a book anyone advocating for social change ought to read but doesn't:

During this period I had about despaired of the power of love in solving social problems. Perhaps my faith in love was temporarily shaken by the philosophy of Nietzsche...Nietzsche’s glorification of power—in his theory all life expressed the will to power—was an outgrowth of his contempt for ordinary morals. He attacked the whole of the Hebraic-Christian morality—with its virtues of piety and humility, its other-worldliness and its attitude toward suffering—as the glorification of weakness, as making virtues out of necessity and impotence. He looked to the development of a superman who would surpass man as man surpassed the ape.

...

Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were only effective in individual relationship. The “turn the other cheek” philosophy and the “love your enemies” philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals were in conflict with other individuals; when racial groups and nations were in conflict a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi, I saw how utterly mistaken I was.

Gandhi was probably the first person in history to lift the love ethic of Jesus above mere interaction between individuals to a powerful and effective social force on a large scale. Love for Gandhi was a potent instrument for social and collective transformation. It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and non-violence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been seeking…I came to feel that this was the only morally and practically sound method open to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom.


The next is probably well-known to you, but bears repeating, and comes from a conservative:

Senator, you won't need anything in the record when I finish telling you this. Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty, or your recklessness.

...

Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty, I would do so. I like to think I'm a gentle man, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.


These guys should have gotten creamed, with their bankrupt slave morality. They should have been driven down to their opponents' level if they wanted to fight. But they didn't, and weren't. They shouldn't have inspired anyone. They shouldn't have been able to hold strongly to their beliefs. But they did, and were.

They didn't buy into the arms race of nastiness, but they still exposed the vicious cruelty and brainless hate of the bullies, and, thereafter, heretofore supporters abandoned those bullies in droves.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. wut r u talking about?
:beer:
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Short version: "you can be furious, and even sound furious, without having to foam at the mouth." nt
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Even shorter
Please don't shoot me.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. If that is how you see their message, I suppose MLK and Gandhi are failures
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 03:34 PM by jpgray
They got shot.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. I only recently encountered the full text of Welch's takedown that you quote there
Canadians are generally aware of "have you no decency, sir?" but not the rest of the exchange; the whole thing's amazing, and as far as such things can be incredibly "clean" as well.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. We used to have a better class of demagogue. :-)
Beck and Palin have nothing on McCarthy or Coughlin.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. And thank goodness for that. (nt)
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bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hear, hear! n/t
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. What we need is accurate facts and real discourse on real facts - and less lies, ignorant opinions
and he said she said with no judgement of legitimacy
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. Eroding support as you suggest means conscience to be appealed to
the corporations are not far away British citizens able to ignore suffering as long as it was in silence nor white voters in America.

Who do you think there is to appeal to? Even the shareholders have little influence and those with votes have willfully perpetrated these acts against the poor and working people.

Against an intractable enemy one must stand up and fight back till the bully goes down or you do. They must know that the beating will have a cost to them and more that you can be beaten but never broken on their will.

I've dealt with bullies my whole life and learned my lessons by heart. You sound like you've never dealt with someone who was going to overpower you and take what is yours because they can. That shit sure as fuck ain't about eroding support other than you fold em up by proving the top dog can be broken and everyone isn't afraid of them.

All I hear is "I didn't get my ass kicked enough" and I think I can talk a shark into being a lamb because Gandhi and King thank you and good night.

Meanwhile, you are applying a tactic to a vastly different obstacle that doesn't really fit. Magic bullet thinking is always dangerous, nothing ALWAYS works. Situations matter.

Sometimes Pharaoh's heart doesn't soften at the cries of the people, nor the sight of their suffering nor does he consider their contributions, loyalty, and civility.
Rather than ease the suffering he orders that the tally of the bricks will remain the same but the straw allotment will be cut in half.

Everybody ain't hearing pleas for reason and decency when they are getting over on it.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. We need to reveal their cruelty to the abused and fearful ignorant. They enable your "sharks"
GOP voters. Even Tea Party voters. These people are getting abused and exploited, even as they are taught to hate by the very people abusing them. If we sneer at them, considering them a bunch of uneducated subhuman rubes, if we believe their relative oldness, whiteness, and often absolute ignorance merit nothing more than contempt, what reason do these people have to vote Democratic? Why wouldn't they simply dismiss us as "Liberal Elites?" We want their votes, and they should -want- to work for Democrats, because the GOP is bleeding them dry.

To really get going on this doesn't mean muzzling Olbermann--he does play a role, and I don't mind particularly if he points out the silliness of the unhinged right, or debunks the non-scandal du jour lobbed at the Democratic Party. Those aren't evil acts, wrong acts, or anything like that. But I want to promote the best and most serious voices we have, such as Moyers in journalism and Sanders in politics.

Think of how the South is treated sometimes on this board, as nothing more than Dumbfuckistan--some fantasy hellscape inhabited only by bigots and religious crazies. That sort of exclusiveness and sneering dismissal really isn't helping. And I still believe it isn't necessary.

There are irredeemable people, true. You aren't going to turn the sharks around, but you can make the shark a shunned and execrated animal in your local waters, with a little work.

As for getting bullied, you don't know me, but think of MLK man! Not many bullies try to blow up your house with you and your family in it--that's a damn sight worse than any bully I've encountered, and I've met with more than a few. If he can keep from descending into complete nastiness after that, I'd be ashamed to do it after the comparably minor shit I've had to deal with.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. your method has already been tried to disastrous effect or did you miss the last few decades?
I think you misunderstand King and are attempting to apply his tactics where they cannot function. The sharks don't give a shit about their footpads.

King stood up to the bullies. He did it non-violently (which may not have been nearly as effective if not for the pressure applied by the threat of those that did not share his conviction, don't discount the gravity of Malcolm) but he didn't relent and MANY considered him a prime rabble rouser.

You are over simplifying and extrapolating to support your ideology.

I've dealt with bullies. My way works and yours most often only fuels them, especially the ones under discussion. Each and every time we have answered them as you suggest they have been emboldened rather than diminished.

How do you deny observable reality???? We're talking demonstrable fact. We behave exactly as you insist for decades and have been beat the fuck down. Obama plays your way to the point of capitulation, Kerry did, Gore did, Dukakis did, Mondale did, Carter did. It isn't working!

Our Congresspeople do it every day and we are getting rolled and moving to shitting on the people our damn selves in some effort to just get along. We have War Criminals running loose and bragging about their destruction of our values as not to rub anyone wrong. We allow their failed ideologies to continue to dominate as not to offend.

Now all you got is to go back to a few years ago as we ceded the stage to the loudmouth bullies and try to meekly stick to mealy mouthed protest in the most objective, even handed, generous way possible which is broadly what is happening now.

Fuck no, I'm not trying to win their votes. I'm trying to drag them into the future kicking, screaming, and biting the whole way. I'm trying to survive and build a decent future DESPITE THEM not by including their failed policies and cult like secular religion.

You act like this is a new dynamic. The footpads have been with us ALWAYS as have their masters that they WILLINGLY AND OBEDIENTLY support to their own observable detriment.

You flat out refuse to admit the truth that for every King there are thousands of others that we'll never know that got crushed into the dust.

I support your dedication to principle but not your refusal to even admit that we have tried your tactics and demeanor for literally decades with some pretty bad results. Your strategy must be at least amended in some way because not only is the tactic failing but has made matters way worse.
Olberman and fellow travelers aren't the cause of the Republicans behavior but a basic survival response to it. What you want led us here. You're type of insistence on a response is just as at fault as the bullying behavior because it feeds it big time.

The more we have been Alan Colmes the more they have been Hannity. Like any piece of shit bully they cry foul as soon as someone begins to stand up to them.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hear,hear
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. All respect, but it hasn't been tried.
I know how that sounds like moving the goalposts, but I'm not arguing that all we have to do is be relatively nice, and that's all. There is a world of difference between the decency of John Kerry and the decency of Bernie Sanders or Russ Feingold.

There is weakness and equivocation in our party's highest ranks, and when our leaders work from that foundation, it doesn't matter how pugilistic their rhetoric is. Rahm Emanuel can play at scatological tough-guy pugilism all he wants, but in the end he represents the same weakness. There is little more depressing than hearing people argue -Chuck Schumer- would be a great majority leader, when the guy gets $20 million for '10 while his opponent raises something like $150,000. Where does Schumer get it? Mostly from the securities and banking industry.

From at least Tony Coelho on, our party has been deep in the worst national arms race of influence peddling in the country's history. The cost of campaigns has gone up, up some more, and then up again, every single election. If you spend three-fourths of your time as a legislator on the phone trying to get money from anywhere and anybody, no amount of harsh rhetoric -or- principled niceness counts for a damn. It's difficult to do a report on Buchenwald when you're calling up Speer for contributions, using Goebbels as a campaign consultant, or making deals with Focke-Wulf to keep factory jobs in your state.

Think of all the depressing Kabuki Congressional hearings on the banking industry. Think of how Obama's address to the financial industry went unattended by Blankfein, or Obama's buddy Jamie Dimon, or indeed any major CEO. There is an understanding there which assures the lack of any significant principle when it comes to reining in the banking industry, and on that foundation it -doesn't matter- how harsh the rhetoric is. In the end, all tough talk, all ballyhooed legislation--all of it--is false and weak.

Decency in service of strongly held principles works. The toughest of tough-guy nastiness does not, if its foundation is one of institutional decay. Swift-Boat Veteran for Truth can't exist without complicit media, and a guy like Kerry doesn't become weak and vacillating on policy absent our thrillingly corrupt cabal of party strategists, fundraisers and consultants.

The last twenty years aren't about a failure to be tough, they're about a failure of principle at the institutional level. Fix the principles, and decency works again. Fail to fix them, not even the nastiest stuff will make a difference.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hey! This made DU's top ten for "On the Fence"
My next thread will be titled "Beyond Rec and Unrec." DUers are something that must be overcome, and all that.

:D
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