Time to find new leadership, Now.

[Jack Sprat]

We need to find a true Democratic voice who speaks for the principles the Party of Roosevelt embraces. Not a Clinton type who cojoined with Republicans to pass NAFTA. Not an Obama type who has searched for ways to cojoin Republicans by meek bipartisanship. We need a lion, who is not timid in his defense of the New Deal principles and legislation that has safeguarded a decent standard of living for Americans for decades. We have been abundantly patient waiting for the president that we elected to speak for us. Instead, he has used members of his cabinet to belittle us. He not only forsake this Democratic base, he appeared weak and vacillating to Independants who withdrew his support in the midterms.

I only speak for myself, but I want another candidate to represent our party heading into 2012. I want a leader who embodies the principles of Roosevelt proudly and loudly. It is the right of every Democrat to choose a leader to represent them every 4 years. I cannot and will not pretend to support a President who knows very well the intentions of the Republican Right to make severe cuts in social spending, all the while he is positioning himself to meekly surrender tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans whether they want them or not. All of this, while every single American with any awareness of fiscal sanity is pleading to reign in the massive deficit. President Obama is not exhibiting any leadership. He is exhibiting complete, utter terror of taking criticism from the pundits of mainstream rightwing media.

[Ozymanithrax]

1. HIstory shows us that a primary challange is the best way...

to turn the White House over to the other party.

[Davis_X_Machina]

3. You've forgotten that this is DU...

....where politics isn't about governing. It's not supposed to accomplish anything.

It's a form of self-expression, a form of social signaling via our choices in candidates and positions how we feel about ourselves and the world. Exclusivity matters. Brand names matter. Sedulously avoiding anything everyone else does matters, a lot.

Upon reflection, that's not fair. It's not supposed to accomplish anything buying logo'ed sportswear -- or being ostentatious about buying non-logo'ed sportswear -- doesn't also do.

[MrScorpio]

5. Yep, it's all about "Making a Stand"

Whether or not any of our stands are grounded in reality or even remotely feasible is quite another arena for vigorous debate.

But goshdurnnit, it feels pretty freaking great to see our own words show up on the internet.

[Jack Sprat]

8. It's not that Mr Scorpio

It's not at all wanting to see words showing up on the internet. It is a sense of guilt at not speaking out and not speaking up when a crisis is peaking. And I think a crisis is coming and many people know it. If there was ever a time to speak up, it is very likely now more than ever.

[MrScorpio]

16. You know the neatest thing about posting on a place like DU...

Is that we can say just about anything, within certain bounds of course.

We can express our frustration about how we perceive things to be, as well as joy at times.

We can do all of this, while completely disregarding the actual conditions on the ground, or even consequences that we've never bother to voice. Wishful thinking is pretty much encouraged and quite welcomed when enjoined by other posters of like mind.

However, when we forget to apply that age old adage about the best laid plans of mice and men... We shouldn't be surprised when we find out that things don't turn out exactly the same as we wished them to be.

It's a breeding ground for frustration and recrimination.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Exactly, we need to heed the lessons of FDR

If that hothead FDR hadn't stood up to the Predator Class:



Then we would have had 60 years of Democratic dominance of government.

Oh, wait... uh...

[Ozymanithrax]

28. That was why Progressives detested FDR.

He was a liberal Democrat.

[polichick]

14. It's a freaking message board; a place to express ideas. Jeez. nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

18. People tend to forget that's all it is.

It's not the barricades of 1848.
It's not the floor of the House.

It's not even a very good bar.

It's most like a runway, where one can show off fashions, and strike poses, for other people in the industry.

[polichick]

20. And a place where we can express anxiety, hopes and dreams. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

27. We can express ideas and be aware of historical precedent and...

recognize that actions have consequences.

It is my idea that a primary against Obama is a colossally bad idea. I would not vote for a primary challenger, even if FDR himself crawled up out of his grave and ran against him.

However if a primary challenger does win, I will support that challenger, even if I know that historical precedent tells me that Republicans are going to win the White House. After all, he or she may be the one to go against history.

Finally, it is also OK to poke hole in ideas if you or I think they are wrong.

[Exultant Democracy]

9. You are right about that. Now the congress is a different story, primary the lot of them.

[Edweird]

30. How interesting. So, in your mind, what happened this past election?

[Ozymanithrax]

35. There was no President running in the last election. Look at the historical evidence.

In 1992, George H. W. Bush faced a strong primary opponent from his right (Buchanan). He lost the White House to Democrats.

1980 Carter had a strong Primary opponent from his left (Kennedy). He lost the White House to Republicans.

1976 Ford had a strong Primary opponent from his right (Reagan). He lost the White House to Democrats.

1968 Johnson had a strong primary opponent from his left (Eugene McCarthy). He actually resigned and Republicans won the White House.

Congressional and Senatorial Elections are not national elections. But the historical evidence is clear, strong primary opponents of a sitting President lead to the party in power losing the White House. Yes, maybe someone will primary Obama and be the exception. But it looks like the ugly infighting in a party when there is a sitting President splits the party and leads to a loss.

Yes, perhaps those Presidents would have lost anyway. But there is a strong historical case to be made against the practice.

I think a if someone primaries Obama, it will convince Bloomberg to run as a centrist to the left of the Republican (name is irrelevant) and to the right of Obama (or anyone with a big enough ego to run against him and win). At that point, the election will follow the same pattern as Florida. The Republican will take 38% of the vote nationally. Bloomberg will take independents and Democrats who are so afraid that the Republican will win they will vote for a kinder gentler Republican in his place. This will split an already divided Democratic Party and Republicans take the White House. Republicans also will retake the Senate and put them back in control of all branches of the government.

If Bloomberg really does something rare, he can take enough electoral votes to keep Democrats or Republicans from winning outright. In that case, the election is decide in the Congress, with the House electing the President and the Senate the Vice President, which puts Republicans in Power.

Bush would call that a Trifecta.

[pa28]

36. Carter was like the weak animal in a fleeing herd and Johnson was hated by the base over Vietnam.

Maybe primary challenges cause losses or maybe bad presidents draw them. Who knows?

[pocoloco]

2. We could use someone like who we thought we were getting.

Someone who needs a wheelbarrow just to carry his balls around.

[Donnachaidh]

10. too bad we got the padded wheelbarrow instead, huh?

or is it a push-up wheelbarrow? :rofl:

Whatever it was, it was only good for photo-ops. :shrug:

[ProSense]

4. Hmmmm?

" President Obama is not exhibiting any leadership. He is exhibiting complete, utter terror of taking criticism from the pundits of mainstream rightwing media."

You're right, he's hiding under his desk right now because Orly is demanding his birth certificate.

[demwing]

13. Pull out the Orly

because you have no other argument

[ProSense]

23. I could make a million arguments

and none would be acceptable.

"We need to find a true Democratic voice who speaks for the principles the Party of Roosevelt embraces. "
Who?

Below is Trumka for President. Trumka is never going to run for President. He also strongly supports this President.

Want an alternate argument to Orly:

"President Obama is not exhibiting any leadership. He is exhibiting complete, utter terror of taking criticism from the pundits of mainstream rightwing media."

He's shaking in his boots

It's good to know who supports flawed arguments as long as they're anti-Obama, though.

[Subdivisions]

25. 'Trumka is never going to run for President'

Did he tell you this? If not, how do you know his intentions well enough to state categorically that he will never run for president? He is, after all, already a president.

Also, I actually prefer to see him run in 2016. I'm meerly putting the idea out there for some feedback. It's time we had someone who will work for the People, and not The Corporations.

[Subdivisions]

6. Hows about:....

AFL/CIO president Richard L. Trumka

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Trumka

[Jack Sprat]

7. That choice would be fine, imo.

We have abandoned Labor in recent years to our own detriment. What better way to bring back the backbone that formed the very hard core of this party in its' most populist years? What better time than now to reach out to them than this time of economic uncertainty? It's almost a perfect choice.

[polichick]

12. You're thinking of the old Democratic party, before the DLC and corporate control...

But I do agree, I'd love to support someone who represents those old Democratic values and principles. I don't know if it will come through this party or another.

[Davis_X_Machina]

19. Back when it was in the hands of a lot...

..of very old white guys from the South, and a lot of very corrupt white guys from the cities of the North.

The golden age, in other words.

[polichick]

21. Back when Democratic leaders had balls. nt

[JanMichael]

15. "his" or "her". nt.

[gateley]

17. As Ozymanithrax states, that's the best way to doom our party.

Is that what you want?

I want to see what he's going to do. I'm hoping for more, like all of us, but if not, there's no way I'm going to get behing primarying him. It'd be like shooting myself in the foot.

[Jack Sprat]

22. You want to hear something funny?

I have lost the will to argue this topic. I must be seeing things that others don't see. I must have fears or visions that don't affect others. I can only speak on behalf of myself and often I'm wrong or misguided. I made my position known, but I'm just one among a nation of millions in true perspective.

[gateley]

24. Many of us see the same things and feel the same frustration and

anger, but I honestly don't think primarying him would be in our best interests. Even if we got the perfect candidate, I fear s/he wouldn't be elected because the RW machine will have whipped all their doe-eyed devotees into a frenzy, and there are still many people who would vote for Obama.

IMO, natch. :7 :hi:

[Edweird]

29. From where I sit, the course of the past 2 years was the best way to doom the party.

[gateley]

37. I understand your point. Maybe I should rephrase that it would be the best

way to doom hope of a Democratic win in 2012.

[unkachuck]

33. America is watching....

....and what most Americans are seeing is a weak and ineffective president....blindly supporting the Prez just might lead to a wholesale defeat in 2012....

....ask yourself, "How's that hope and change thingy working out for us?"....and if you won't ask, others will....

[gateley]

38. I still think it would be detrimental to introduce another candidate. We know

who the Republicans will vote for (whoever it is with the R behind his/her name). But if we have Obama vs. Candidate X, half will go to Obama, half to Candidate X - then what happens when one or the other wins the nomination? Those who voted for the "loser" might just stay home. Can't risk it. IMO, natch.

And that's some scary pic you have in your sig line! :scared: :7:

[Odin2005]

26. Real chnage ONLY comes from DIRECT ACTION.

Labor Strikes. Sit-Ins. National Strikes. Mass SPONTANEOUS Demonstrations. Threats against the lives of the Corporate Class. Only when the Elites are terrified of a revolution, as in the 30s, will we see change.

[JoePhilly]

31. The American people do not care about the deficit.

That claim in your OP suggest you have some other agenda.

The GOP only cares about the deficit when they are out of power, and the "independents" only care about it when the media tells them to.

What middle income Americans care about now, sadly, is that their PERSONAL taxes may go up. That is ALL THEY CARE ABOUT. The media has helped them understand this. As a result, their concern over the deficit, which was manufactured anyway, can be IGNORED.

If middle class Americans see a tax increase, all they will see is that Obama LIED to them, because he promised to not raise their taxes.

As for Social Security, and future cuts to it, the middle class, again sadly, is going to accept those becasue they occur in the FUTURE. And America, is now an "immediate gratification" nation.

And while we can try to blame Obama ... doing so is BS ... Obama will never be able to go door to door and explain this to the average American who is struggling day to day now.

So in your post ... this phrase ... "All of this, while every single American with any awareness of fiscal sanity is pleading to reign in the massive deficit" is meaningless. There simply are not many Americans who have a long term view of US financial issues, they live in the moment, pay check to pay check.

[ampad]

32. Go for it

You know I would love to see a poll (outside of DU) asking Dems and liberals if they want to primary the president. I want to see just how many Liberals, Dems (outside of DU) think that is a good idea.

[SidDithers]

34. Unrec...nt

Sid

[Fire Walk With Me]

39. That new leadership, is us.

What do we want, and how do we go about creating it?