What is the solution to airline security?

[FLPanhandle]

There have been numerous complaints about the TSA:

Invasion of privacy.
Presumed guilt.
Imposition of authority.
Ineffective or Security Theater.

Please don't use this thread to bitch about the TSA (there are plenty of others for that), but instead pretend Obama asked you to redesign airport security. What would your solution be?

Would you propose a wild west/no security at all? Pre 9/11? Something else?

Curious if there is any consensus here on what is acceptable security.

[ixion]

1. Yeah, the level that was in place in the 80s.

You put your and your bags through a metal scanner and went on your way. That was tolerable. The TSA is not.

[walldude]

43. Yup and we are no more safe now than we were then...

The key if people really want to fly safely is to scan luggage, and cargo.

When is the last time a plane was hijacked? on 9/11. It won't happen again. It wouldn't have played out the way it did if the people on board knew it was not just a hijacking. I see someone trying to hijack the plane I'm on, I'll be kicking their ass or I'll die trying. So would most passengers these days.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Use of scanners, sniffers, but drop the pat-downs and 3-oz. container bullshit.

I'd say yes, pre-9/11 levels as regards invasion of personal space and drop the limited fluids and gels crap.

I don't feel safer, that argument is the same BS argument used to pass the Patriot Act and other erosive bits of legislation.

Not feeling one bit safer under anything passed in the last ten years.

If anything, I feel LESS safe due to them.

:patriot:

[Catherina]

3. Answers 1 and 2 n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Fly naked.

You hand over your clothes at the security checkpoint; they give you a bathrobe. At the end of the flight you get your clothes back.

But seriously, this is ridiculous. There should be some level of security, but it seems to me the real threat is from explosives in checked luggage, not in clothing, carry-ons or body cavities (the undie-bomber notwithstanding). What if some nitwit tries to smuggle a weapon or explosive onto a plane by putting it where the sun doesn't shine? Will we all have to undergo body cavity searches?

[FLPanhandle]

13. I didn't need that mental picture.

I agree there is no way to have perfect security. The trick is where do we draw the line from "some level of security" to "body cavity searches"?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. Better screening of cargo, which is where the real threat is.

After 9/11 there are enough onboard security measures to prevent that kind of incident from occurring again. The experts claim the undie-bomber didn't have enough explosives in his pants to bring the plane down, or even damage it badly. I think the bad guys know that if they want to wreak serious havoc they have to use cargo. So let's get serious about thoroughly scanning all checked baggage and all cargo, and limit passenger harassment to the magnetometer thingy and sending the carryons through the x-ray machine. Forget the nudie-scan and the groin grope.

[WinkyDink]

36. THANK YOU. Hello, Pan Am 103?! It's the CARGO HOLD, STUPID!

[FLPanhandle]

5. I'll answer my own question here.

I'd drop the liquids ban.
I'd drop the taking off of shoes/ xray of shoes.
I'd drop the body scanners.

I'd keep the post 9/11 ban on box cutters/sharp implements.
I'm almost okay with keeping TSA as a common agency vs. rent-a-cops.

[musette_sf]

60. And what of the "enhanced pat-down",

or as we used to call it, "heavy petting"?

And what is the diff between TSA and Paul Blart? I can't see any, except TSA are even MORE craven power-trippers.

[FLPanhandle]

67. I'd use a pat down as a last recourse.

Fail the metal detector, you get a hand wand.
Fail the hand wand, you get a pat-down or refused entry...passenger choice.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. if you really want to make it more secure

the number ONE thing that must be done is securing baggage and cargo...and the cargo areas around the airport. it is essentially wide open there...

and to make the passenger compartment safe :
1) baggage x-rays (like we have forever)
2) magnetometers (as most airports at least USED to have)
3) behavior analysis (target PEOPLE...not weapons)

You cannot 100% secure an aircraft...all this mess that is going on now is not only NOT better from a security standpoint, it is detrimental to our way of life.

sP

[FLPanhandle]

9. #3 is probably the most important

However, implementing it would be unpopular too.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. it would be indeed...

but we would need to be clear...it isn't about targeting types of people (race/religion) but about targeting the behavior of people...

sP

[Loge23]

7. Better technology is probably the answer.

The current TSA policy is based on presumption of guilt - which is a serious violation of the very spirit of our freedom.
Still, something has to be in place to detect explosives - other than randomly selecting passengers that are clearly long shots as terrorists.
The current system of scanners and personal pat-downs indicates that the system is clearly in the primitive stage.
There is a need for a higher level of technology - a simple walk-through - that can detect real threats.
Let's not forget that 9/11 was a result of the breakdown in security that was adequate enough to detect metal box cutters.
...not to mention, the failure of intelligence that should have been enough to prevent this tragedy.

[Le Taz Hot]

8. Drive.

:shrug:

[hayu_lol]

11. Ground the planes...

public transport limited to trains and cars. To other countries: ships only.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. That's just dumb. Way to crush the economy for good.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. Self-delete.

[hunter]

40. I like that idea.

And what's wrong with crushing the current "economy?" Better to do it now in a controlled manner rather an uncontrolled collapse. The current economy is not sustainable and won't be around much longer anyhow.

Could this be the actual reason for making airline flight as miserable as possible? Perhaps it's a secret plan to kill air travel as a normal means of transportation for the masses. Only the economic elite will fly, and it will be first class from a limo on the runway.

:tinfoilhat:

Truly though, I do think the economy needs to slow down. But we have to figure out a way of doing this such that people are not forced into poverty.

[CBGLuthier]

14. Stop killing men women and children half way around the world.

Oh wait. They hate our freedom rah rah rah.

Does anyone remember how much the security increased after TWA 800. Which turned out to be the fault of bad practices and bad designs?

Every little stupid damn incident leads to more stupid procedures. If there is anything more fucking stupid than having people take their god damned shoes off I would hate to know about it.

[FLPanhandle]

15. So, what is your solution?

If the Iraq/Afghanistan wars ended tomorrow, are you proposing dropping all security procedures?

[lpbk2713]

17. Greyhound Bus

Piss on them. Air travel is just not worth the hassle any more.

[FLPanhandle]

18. So, what is your solution to making it worth the hassle.

I'd like to stay positive here and curious to your thoughts. What solution would make it hassle free or worth the level of hassle you think is acceptable?

[seabeyond]

19. the knowledge that you cannot prevent all things from happening.

that there has to be lines drawn on how far we are going to go, for safety such as sexual assault. someone grabbing my breast, and me having no option to stop it is sexual assault. the choice of physically grabbing me or taking a picture of me naked is sexual assault.

[WolverineDG]

21. start working on high speed rail pronto

get some competition going for the airlines so they can put pressure on TSA to stop treating people like common criminals just because they bought a plane ticket.

dg

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. you don't believe they would enforce the same crap

on trains??? interesting...

sP

[WolverineDG]

27. They don't

neither do they pull that shit on buses.

When I was in Spain the *only* time I saw any airport-style "security" was on trains going to Madrid & then it was only "please put your bag through the scanner." Every other time, I simply hopped on & off, no one checked my bags, no one patted me down. Same thing happened when I traveled on the Eurostar.

dg

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. i am saying if the TSA finds their power eroded

by people moving to different modes of transport that they would 'gin-up' some excuse to perform the same crap on the newly chosen mode. They aren't needed by the airlines...but they are there.

sP

[WolverineDG]

38. they only have authority at airports

Law enforcement handles the rest.

dg

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. I beleive that on some subways in the US, police are doing random checks

Also Amtrack is doing them as well

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/06/nyregion/06bags.html
http://dc.streetsblog.org/2010/04/26/federal-transit-security-inspections-a-once-every-three-years-affair/
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-19/us/amtrak.security_1_automatic-weapons-and-bomb-sniffing-northeast-corridor-amtrak?_s=PM:US
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/29/new-york-city-subway-secu_n_516774.html

[Posteritatis]

66. Actually, I don't; there's only so much you can do with a train compared to an aircraft. (nt)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Israel gets it right

No taking off your shoes either. Its a clue

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. yep...have flown through and into and out of Israel several times

and their security in the open in much less intrusive than that of the TSA...oddly, the most hated target of many a middle eastern government remains unattacked (successfully) in decades...

sP

[FLPanhandle]

29. What do the Israelis do?

I assume there is a level of profiling/behavior analysis?

[woo me with science]

32. We posted at the same time.

Great minds think alike.

BTW, how are the beaches down there?

[FLPanhandle]

34. Nice now that we don't have to worry about oil on them.

Actually, this is the best time of the year here. Most of the tourists are gone, the weather is mild, and the boating is fantastic.

[woo me with science]

35. Glad to hear it.

I love the panhandle. :hi:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. they do prescreening (before you ever even get to the airport)

so they know WHO is flying. they do a great deal of behavior analysis including face to face encounters with 'agents' and video technology to identify patterns. IF you ever get to the 'interview' phase, it will be 45 minutes of polite curiosity...

sP

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. It starts with limiting airport access

- Only allowed on the airport with good cause
- Brief checks before you enter the door
- Interview and "rating" before your bags are screened. That rating is the key for future steps.
- Bags are screened. Questions asked about anything unclear
- Possible luggage hand screening depending on interview and baggage images.
- Then you check in with the airline
- Passport/immigration check
- US style check, shoes remain on, hand luggage is rescreened. Anything odd gets you another interview
- Random observers in boarding lounges.
- Sky Marshalls of some sort
===================
- Structural barriers so incoming and outgoing can not mingle.
- Video is everywhere
- Wide enclosed walking areas with catwalks overhead.

All the early screeners/interviewers are young. I have been told that they are fresh out of the IDF and can only have that job for a limited period. They all speak multiple languages, Hebrew, Arabic, English at a minimum.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

51. I have been through the interview process...

and she was a young girl who could not have been more than 22. She was apparently being mentored. She was very polite and professional and asked the same question about 5 different ways. I knew the time was coming as I had failed to complete my prescreening at the office.

Video IS everywhere...

It was much harder getting on a plane to get OUT than to get IN!

sP

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. I was told that the pair sometime switch off between "trainee" and "mentor"

They are both watching like hawks.

One of my daughters was pressed about a blob in her luggage at the first screening after the interview. She said it was a package of Dead Sea Mud used for facials. The machine operator, a young lady, then asked her where she bought it. After that, what brand. She smiled at the last answer and said that was the brand she used...and let her through without requiring a hand baggage check. My daughter found it odd, but its clear she was being "read" at the time. I have seen what they do if something "just doesn't look right". No whips or electrical shocks, but you may not make your flight.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. Laurel and Hardy did appear to have a good routine...

She tried to finish interviewing me a couple of times and he would give the 'keep going' sign. But he was definitely watching. They actually wanted to know the names of the people who had been in my class. Who I worked for. What was I teaching whilst there? Could I show them the software...thank goodness I had it in a virtual machine. Very polite...very inquisitive. Not saying I enjoyed the experience, but the 45 minutes or so passed without incident and at no time did I feel 'threatened' though I was certainly being scrutinized.

sP

[woo me with science]

31. What does Israel do? nt

[jobendorfer]

48. Do the Israeli methods scale?

Israel's population is 7.6 million people.
It has *two* international airports, and a couple of dozen domestic airports ( some of which have unpaved runways ).

By contrast:
The U.S. has a population of 300,000,000 and five thousand airports with paved runways.
The Atlanta Airport, all by itself, moves the equivalent of the entire population of Israel in about 10 weeks of typical operation.

Some of what works for them -- may not work here due to the scale of the problem.

Much of what the TSA does seems pointless and misguided to me.
The Germans have an air-travel security problem that's around the same scale as the U.S.
What do they do?

J.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

65. Fair question, and I don't know if it would

[sally cat]

52. Another vote here for the Israeli method.

[Posteritatis]

68. Yeah, I figure any airport security beyond theirs is unnecessary

A lot of the stuff in the US and Canada is about the appearance of security, which is probably at odds with actual safety, in any case.

I can see people switching to the methods of one of the countries with the safest planes on the planet and everyone howling about how we'd be making it easier for the terrorists.

[janet118]

24. What ever happened to the recommendation from the 70s . . .

that the cockpits be sealed? It may not prevent the murders of the passengers and service crew, but it would prevent using a plane to fly into anything. I agree that careful weapons, explosives scans of people and cargo are essential, plus all crew and passengers should be vigilant about reporting any violent or weird behavior or conversation they witness.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. That is now the standard

Armored door, can not be opened from the outside. aisle is blocked when anyone exists to use the bathroom or food is brought in.

[Angleae]

54. Door is kevlar reinforced and can be usually opened from outside with numeric code.

The code can be found in the airlines maintenance manual for that type of aircraft. The door does have a deadbolt but the pilot must unbuckle and get out of his seat to lock it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. I believe the current requirement is the deadbolt be locked when the door is shut

There are over rides, mostly for ground use. I do not think I saw a keypad last time I flew, but will look for one

[JVS]

25. Develop an autopilot for cars. Nap instead of drive.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. at 500 mph too... n/t

[funkskunk]

37. new scanners

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35520088/ns/travel-news
This scanner was tested for 3 months at the beginning of the year in France and customers seemed to be very happy about it, saying it ensured security. Of course lots of people also pretended it was harmful but nothing has been proved so far.

[Cid_B]

39. The system from True Lies...

When they are walking in and all you see are skeletons and guns...

[Lucian]

41. It's not my job to redesign airport security.

But I do know I don't want to be molested or submit to invasive scanning.

[kenny blankenship]

42. The answer to all your security nightmares is to STOP INVADING THE REST OF THE WORLD

America will have no rest or peace until it returns to its own borders. That is the truth.

American freedom has dwindled to an ugly joke and will vanish forever if our rulers are allowed to continue transforming the US into the global warfare state.

[DFW]

47. Maybe consult with some airports in Europe?

I fly in and out of Germany, France, Switzerland, the UK and the Netherlands very frequently, and get a thorough,
efficient, and professional security check without being felt up or x-rayed or undressed. Why we have to make such
a performance out of it all seems to point to a lack of training of our personnel. If you are going to employ an
idiot, at least try to teach him or her how NOT to be an idiot, and don't let them work with people unless they
manage a passing grade.

[FLPanhandle]

50. When there was a high rate of hijacking in the 1960's that's what the world did.

US and Europe got together, figured out a security system and implemented it universally. It's only since George Bush days has the US been unilateral in it's approach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. The first step is to recognize that all activities

have risk. You have a better chance, which is still minimal by the way, of DYING from mechanical failure... that is the first step.

The second is that a lot of this IS security theater... realize that CARGO is far less secure than would make you or I comfortable if you knew what is going on. Google, preferred shipper status and connect some dots.

As to security... a metal detector and X-Ray of your possessions should be more than enough... of course with intelligence and not letting some back actors on planes...

Realize that if somebody wants to bring a plane down and they are motivated enough... THEY WILL GET THROUGH no matter what you put as a barrier. It is just a little more difficult.

Of course we could all just cancel the Fourth Amendment and establish internal passports in the name of security. That is the way we are heading.

[madinmaryland]

56. Make all airports and airplanes "clothes free zones". FLY NAKED!!

[musette_sf]

57. As I've said before again and again

If the rules "pre-9/11" had actually been ENFORCED on the days leading up to 9/11/01, the actors would not have been able to execute against the plan.

"Pre-9/11" rules were NOT the problem on 9/11/01.

The best thing that could be done would be (1) to perform a gap analysis on the rules that were breached up to and on 9/11/01; (2) to put measures in place to insure maximum compliance with each and all of the "pre-9/11" rules.

Of course that would be punitive upon the airlines, their contractors and assigns ,all law enforcement personnel from local to Federal levels, and all government agencies, local, state and Federal.

By 9/21/01, the gov't fund to compensate victims' families was passed, removing the ability of the survivors to sue airlines, their contractors and assigns, and all law enforcement personnel. The only persons a survivor could sue were the alleged perpetrators. Like suing OBL and Atta was going to serve any purpose whatsover.

So I'm all for enforcing the laws that were supposed to protect us on 9/11/01. Somehow we could get a NORAD fighter to figure out tout suite what happened with a millionaire golfer's private jet carrying 6 people over flyover country, but four commercial airliners (jumbo jets at that) gone AWOL somehow, in/near major East Coast metropolitan areas, didn't warrant the same degree of action and urgency.

Damn the Pukes... they break stuff, and never have to clean it up or fix it. Then they get to scream that whatever it is they broke "doesn't work", therefore it needs to be replaced. And somehow, when it gets replaced, cronies (e.g., Skeletor Chertoff) make a pile of dough and the American people pay the bill. We pay financially and we pay with our broken rights.

[Motown_Johnny]

58. high speed rail

[musette_sf]

59. From SF to LA, sure

From SF to NYC, not so sure.

And since we have no high speed rail in the US to speak of at the moment, don't assume that stormtrooper security won't be part of the plans.

[oldlib]

61. Trains!

They don't hassle for security. They are slow but extremely relaxing. They take you to a city, not some remote airport adjacent to the city. You see the backyards of America, not the, for show fronts. The trip from Los Angeles on the Sunset Limited to San Antonio is a delight. Trains are the answer.

[slackmaster]

62. Arm every passenger with a handgun

:sarcasm:

[lonestarnot]

63. Fly naked.