BREAKING NEWS: California Supreme Court Rules Undocumented Keep In-State Tuition

[HS News]

Source: Hispanically Speaking News

After much debate, the California Supreme Court has ruled that undocumented immigrants will still be eligible for in-state tuition in the state’s colleges and universities.
The ruling stated that a California law that guarantees lower tuition for undocumented immigrants who attend a California high school for a minimum of three years and graduate does not conflict with the federal law that gives unauthorized immigrants educational benefits based on residency.

Read more: http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/notitas-de-noticias/details/breaking-news-california-supreme-court-rules-immigrants-keep-in-state-/2977/

---

Not the DREAM Act BUT certainly going in the right direction!

[digitaln3rd]

1. Um?

[marmar]

2. The mad-dog nativists will be foaming at the mouth over this one.

nt

[DBoon]

7. the ones who think illegal immigrants don't pay taxes

Didn't you notice the special lines at supermarkets in California, that say "Illegal immigrants - pay here for your sales tax-free purchases"?

Didn't you notice the special checkbox on your property tax form that says "Check here if you are an illegal immigrant and pay no property taxes" (yes, I will bet there are many homeowners whose immigration status is "vague")

Same with your CA State Tax Form. Special checkbox that says "Illegal immigant - pay no state income taxes, 100% refund on all withholding".

Since it is a known fact that illegal immigrants are exempt from all taxes, then of course the argument is that they should not get any taxpayer provided services. Not college tuition, not our excellent county emergency medical system (good for all your minor aches and pain), not even police protection.

I would continue, but I am out of sarcasm right now....

[marmar]

9. "I would continue, but I am out of sarcasm right now...."

What a pity.

[Kurska]

25. How bout they pay ALL the taxes I pay, preferably via them becoming citizens.

Until then It is highly unfair that a Floridian citizen has to pay more for tuition in California then a non-US citizen at the same school.

[DBoon]

51. What tax do non-citizens not pay that citizens pay?

Does an immigrant home-owner not pay property tax?

Does an immigrant working for a wage not get income tax withheld (and don't citizens who get paid cash under-the-table not avoid paying these taxes)?

Do immigrants not pay sales taxes?

What tax does a resident immigrant not pay that a resident non-immigrant pay?

Immigration status was *never* a consideration in owing or paying taxes.

In-state tuition is for RESIDENTS. Immigration status doesn't matter. RESIDENCY matters. That's why someone from Florida has to pay more than a California RESIDENT.

[arbusto_baboso]

85. Many undocs also pay into SS, which they will never, ever receive...

But yeah, I get it, they're a "drain on the economy". :sarcasm:

[Dappleganger]

12. Nice...

nothing more thrilling than throwing their blood pressure outta whack.

[BillH76]

36. "Mad dog nativist?" Is that your term for ppl who oppose illegal immigration?

Illegal immigration is destroying all the gains made by the US working class in the 20th Century. Wanting to control immigration and keep it at legal levels does not make someone a "mad dog nativist."

[Xipe Totec]

38. That's a bold statement. Cite your sources n/t

[BillH76]

44. It's Econ 101

Increase the supply of workers by 20 million and you cut the price of labor, including the cost of decent working conditions. I used to be a landscaper. Can't get that kind of job anymore.

[EFerrari]

48. But you're only looking at one small part of the whole cycle.

You need to also consider farm subsidies that allow American agribusiness to grow cheap grain (at our expense, of course). Then, that grain is dumped on Mexico and Haiti by the free traders. Then, agriculture in those countries collapses and viola, you have a diaspora.

Blaming these workers is like blaming a plant for being dry in the desert. They had no more control over it than you did.

[BillH76]

54. No, I'm looking at the whole cycle.

And I am not "blaming" workers. I blame the big agribusiness firms that hire them.

[EFerrari]

58. Clearly, you aren't. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

50. Oh, I'm sorry. Didn't know I was talking to a Nobel economist

Sources, my 'friend', sources.

Why are these people willing to risk life and limb to come here, to work in these jobs?

And what will happen to the price of your groceries, if these people can't can't pick lettuce for you?

What will happen if, the only people that can legally emigrate here, are the ones that take the high paying jobs?

Who then gets to pick lettuce for whom, Mr. economics 101?

[BillH76]

53. Is that your refutation?

Can't you think for yourself? Or do you have to have some "authority" to do it for you? In a competitive economy, prices would not go up with the rise of wages. The agribusinessmen would have to accept lower profits. So I take it that you support the current big agriculture oligopoly (Ralston-Purina, ADM, Bank of America).

[Xipe Totec]

75. Nice dodge

But you still haven't supported your point.

Nor did you answer my questions.

I take it you have no answers.

[EFerrari]

3. Excellent. Good news to start the week. n/

[BillH76]

15. Good for undocumented workers. How is it good for the US working class?

We have to pay the taxes and face the competition for jobs. What do we get out of it?

[EFerrari]

16. What makes you think these people don't pay taxes?

[Kurska]

22. Taxes normally leave "Documents".

If they do pay taxes, such as sales tax, they certainly do not pay all the taxes everyone else pays.

[EFerrari]

24. You really need to think that all the way through.

They pay sales tax. They pay property tax directly or indirectly through a mortgage or rent. They pay payroll taxes and SSI if using a fake ID -- in fact, they are keeping Social Security going. If they are paid under the table, they earn substandard wages which might as well be a tax.

This stuff has been posted to DU many times.

[Kurska]

28. " they earn substandard wages which might as well be a tax." I'm not unhappy that they make money.

Frankly, the only concern I have about the amount of money they take home is that I would like it to be enough for them to take care of themselves and their families (as I wish for all people citizens or otherwise). They do not however pay all the same taxes I do or anywhere close to the same percentage of their income relative to their tax bracket.

I'd prefer the majority get put on the path to citizenship and end up paying those same taxes. Right now though, I think it is insane a Floridan citizen who has all the responsibilities of a citizen would pay more for the same university in California than a noncitizen who has none of those responsibilities.

[EFerrari]

31. If you look around, what you'll find is that these people make very little

for the most part and pay more for everything. Yes, they pay their share and more which is why this right wing meme that they don't is sort of disgusting. They're ripped off for their labor AND for the taxes they pay.

[BillH76]

34. They get paid off the books. So they do not pay their share of taxes.

[EFerrari]

41. Some get paid off the books and they get paid substandard wages

for that privilege. Others do pay payroll taxes and into a retirement system they can never collect on.

[BillH76]

43. Substandard wages drive everyone's wages down.

And substandard working conditions for illegals make all work less safe. That's how illegal immigration is destroying all the gains of the US working class in the 20th Century.

[EFerrari]

45. Do you really think the people who come here to work

because NAFTA killed Mexican agriculture want to be here without papers to work for slave wages?

In fact, illegal immigration is a net gain to our economy, not to mention, it's been keeping Social Security healthy. And it only impacts wages in a very few sectors.

These people aren't harming the American working class. Both groups were screwed by NAFTA and all the ftas. By globalization and deregulation. Both groups have exactly the same predators and it ain't each other.

[BillH76]

55. No.

But you're wrong in saying that illegal immigration is a net gain to "the" economy. There is no such thing as what is good for "the" economy. There is what is good for the economic welfare of the working class, and there is what is good for the economic welfare of the capitalist class, and the two have nothing in common.

Illegal immigrants mostly work off the books. You know that. So it does not help social security.

I never said that illegal immigrants are predators. But instead of opening our borders to them, we should do something to help the economies of Latin America, so they don't have to leave their families to find work, and so that the gains of the US working class, which they have fought very hard to win, can be preserved.

That, incidentally, is the position of the Dutch Socialist Party, and I think it's enlightened and good for everyone.

[boppers]

70. "Illegal immigrants mostly work off the books."

Citation please.

[EOTE]

76. Illegal immigrants help social security BECAUSE they work off the books.

Through their labor and the economic stimulus they provide, they are basically paying into a system that they will never see a penny from. So when the time comes for the rest of us to receive our SS, we'll have reaped the benefits that they provide to our economy while taking their portion.

[Kurska]

57. Are you really arguing that it is good we have a extensive underclass that have very few rights and

have to fear about even reporting a crime in some areas because they might get deported? Sounds like the economic situation you're praising as good for us is a 19th century factor owners wet dream. That in turn makes me question why you are on a democratic board, wouldn't you fit in better in at some objectivist website?

[EFerrari]

67. LOL. No, I'm not arguing that in any way. n/t

[Kurska]

80. Your failure to express your ideas in a way representative of what you believe is not my problem.

[Kurska]

35. Either they pay the same taxes as I or any other citizens relative to their tax bracket or

no they are in fact not paying their share. Poverty for them is tragic, as is all poverty, but I find nothing wrong with pointing out "I am fully contributing everything my nation has asked of me in taxes every year on time, yet I have to pay more to go to a state university then someone who isn't?".

This isn't matter of standards of living there are plenty of poor people, citizens or otherwise, it is matter of fairness.

[EFerrari]

42. Yes, you have to pay more to go to a state university

when you are a resident of ANOTHER state. LOL

[Kurska]

59. Edit:

[activa8tr]

4. I can hear the Tea bags howling about this already, and I'm all the way

across the country.

The best investment California can make in her own future is well educated young people. This increases the odds of a much large number of kids getting a good education and adding to our nation's resources with more productive employment after college.

But oh will those Teabaggers squeal.

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Nice to read some GOOD news for a change...

[BillH76]

14. Good for illegal aliens, you mean?

[COLGATE4]

18. No, good for the country. These are kids who have lived here for

a long time, worked hard and are striving to educate themselves. How can that be anything other than of benefit to their community, state and country?

[BillH76]

32. Because it's not their country. They are here illegally.

If they were here legally, there would be no problem.

[jancantor]

46. I'd love all the "Europe is better people" to show me

all the nations in the EU where I can enter illegally and then get cut rate tuition rates for their universities. What other nations allow people who enter their nations illegally, access to subsidized higher education? I would suggest - few to none. Although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Heck, enter Mexico illegally and you face a 2 yr prison sentence.

[COLGATE4]

83. Is the kid whose parents brought him here at 1 yr of age and now

wants to go to college an, as you put it "illegal", so as to not be entitled to in-state tuition?

[naaman fletcher]

6. I live in oklahoma

If my kids want to go to berkely should I just say we live in California and are undocumented?

[DBoon]

8. As long as your kids meet the other criteria:

"...Attend a California high school for a minimum of three years and graduate."

I think anyone who meets this criteria gets in-state tuition. If you want to bother pretending to be an illegal immigrant, go ahead and commit fraud then, but it isn't really necessary

[Psephos]

11. It's just a thought...

...but being in the US illegally is also a fraud.

To enjoy the benefits of citizenship one must also bear its responsibilities, including compliance with the law.

Time to pass the DREAM act, and continue working to naturalize those who came here illegally.

[COLGATE4]

19. There's nothing fradulent about these kids, They aren't claiming

to be American citizens. They are merely asking for the same rights other California resident's children have.

[Kurska]

30. The majority are here illegally are they not? n/t

[COLGATE4]

84. Being here illegally is not a fraud. Claiming to be a citizen to obtain

benefits is. Quite a difference.

[Psephos]

62. Rights are a function of citizenship, not residency.

We need a simple procedure for bringing good kids into the system so that they may participate legitimately.

[ProudDad]

21. "being in the US illegally is also a fraud"

No, it isn't...

It's a civil violation...

[Psephos]

60. Actually, fraud is both a crime AND a civil violation.

This is as good a description as any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Personally, I'd prefer to avoid the criminal accusations and high dudgeon, and figure out how to absorb illegal immigrants without criminal backgrounds into the system with a simple procedure. Vesting those here illegally with the benefits of citizenship but without the costs or responsibilities is an invitation to violent social unrest, heightened bigotry, and unsustainable economic strain.

[Kurska]

65. Excellent post

"Vesting those here illegally with the benefits of citizenship but without the costs or responsibilities is an invitation to violent social unrest, heightened bigotry, and unsustainable economic strain." that really is the heart of the matter.

[EFerrari]

68. This is too over the top to even make sense. A kid brought here

in their minority who goes through our schools and is trying to make it to college has not committed fraud in any way.

And not only do these families have most responsibilities of citizens with few of the benefits, their crime rate is not higher than the native born

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/080318-immigration-crime.html

and they contribute to our economy.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_n5_v18/ai_18225773/

[Psephos]

69. What's over the top about making these kids legal and giving them a simple path to citizenship?

Solves a lot of problems.

Your response seems more rationalizing than rational.

You're underestimating how much structural bigotry and violent social friction will result from not bringing everyone who lives here under the umbrella of the law. The bigotry and violence will come from legal citizens and residents as they watch government budgets continue to crumble, and they will blame it on have-nots who live outside the law, as they have through history. Frankly, those who create situations where the worst urges of human nature are fertilized are as responsible for the outcome as the haters are themselves.

Cf. gypsies, Central Europe, e.g.

Meanwhile, where does this notion arise that kids who come here illegally generally apply themselves by "going through our schools, and try to make it to college"? What percentage of those kids have you just described? I taught in South L.A. and Texas, and what I saw doesn't match up neatly with what you said. I see the majority of undocumented kids living in a hard-scrabble world where PC concepts are something to be exploited, not espoused. I would do the same were I in their shoes.

I'm interested in finding a simple and humane way to dent this problem as it actually exists, in a tough, real world. The truth is that many, perhaps a majority, of undocumented kids do not have the basic tools needed to get through the day decently, let alone dream up a middle-class vision of their future, apply themselves industrially in high school, and move on to success in college. That's plain cruel.

[Tikki]

10. Proof of residency for one year...

and you're in...


Tikki

[Igel]

39. Been there, done that.

But most 18-year-old kids have trouble with the proof of residency requirement.

I went to a UC school for my grad program. I picked up lock, stock and barrel and moved from another state. New checking account, drivers license, utilities, the whole 9 yards. Within days of arriving in Calif. not only did I open the necessary accounts but I had closed nearly all of my out-of-state accounts. No family where I moved from. Still, I almost flunked the residency requirements because I had a pitifully small CD in an IRA in my old non-California bank that I had allowed to automatically roll over because I didn't have time to figure out how to transfer it to a California bank, what with 16 credits, studying for MA exams, and working 20 hours a week.

At my school you were guilty until proven innocent.

[villager]

13. Well, good as far as it goes, but speaking as a Californian, "in-state"

...tuition ain't what it used to be!

[EFerrari]

17. Tell me about it. I've been priced right out of school. n/t

[ProudDad]

20. California has been one rare bright spot lately...

Good for you!

And here in the new Mississippi, Arizona, we are on the other end of the teeter-totter...

[Kurska]

23. My Afro-Latin friend has to pay 4 times the normal tuition for his college

in Seattle because he had the audacity to be born in California. Meanwhile a non-citizen can get instate tutition after not even being born in this country?

Generally I think the very idea of "In state vs. out of state tuition" is incredibly dated and at odds with the reality of modern America, that said I have no idea how exactly a non-citizen gets better treatment in California then a Californian who lives in Seattle.

I think my friend's case illustrates that at least to me this is not a race issue, I could hardly care less about race.

[EFerrari]

26. The requirement is for residency, not place of birth. n/t

[Kurska]

29. You can be a citizen of the United States no matter where you are born.

I've never seen such a blatant non-arguement in my life. I don't give a damn where you are born. I care about citizenship. If you're going to find the tiniest part of my post and pick it apart without addressing the substance this will be a very short discussion.

[EFerrari]

33. State colleges are funded by state taxes.

Which is why state residency is the requirement, not federal citizenship. Residents of California pay California taxes.

As I said, you really should take the time to think this all the way through.

[Kurska]

37. That is not profound or new information to me, I go to a state college.

However, billions of federal tax money (an amount I pay into and for the most part the people in question do not) is given to California every year. Surely, you are aware of this? An even larger amount is used to provide California citizens with things California doesn't have to pay. Which is another way my federal Tax money helps California.

If I moved to California as a Floridian resident, I would suddenly be paying into both systems, yet I would be asked to pay more for a California education than a Californian noncitizen who only pays into one? You're telling me that is fair?

[EFerrari]

40. Iirc, CA pays in more than it gets back.

What are all these "things" California citizens don't have to pay for? I want to make sure I'm getting mine. :)

ETA: Here's a link to one graphic that shows which states pay in and which draw. It's from 2004 so there may be an update somewhere.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html

[Kurska]

56. And your point is? Okay so someone from New Jersey does the same thing.

There are 8 states above California. Isn't asking people for more money for education, as you seem to be arguing is okay, because they come from a poor state a VERY republican viewpoint? Are you not also assuming that because of Florida's average money in/money out that I PERSONALLY take in more then I pay out? Your argument is so flawed here, I think it would be fair to say you don't even have a argument. Not only does applying it on a personal level make no sense, these "undocumented immigrants" would in any statistical sense be completely outside the 50 states in your example, they pay less into the federal Government on average then any of those states and receive benefits partially paid for with federal tax money by California.

"What are all these "things" California citizens don't have to pay for? I want to make sure I'm getting mine."

California Citizens pay for everything, California undocumented immigrants pay for nearly nothing on a federal level. But if your question is what does my federal tax money pay for FOR California? Well for one foreign policy expenses are all handled by the National government, a example being California doesn't maintain embassies overseas. Medicare is a national program, if it was eliminated California would certainly have to majorly expand programs of its own. Can you really not think of things that the Federal Government does on behalf of California? No national programs that either partly or totally fulfill a role that if the Federal government disappeared California would have to take on itself? Did you not take a high school civics class?

Look, if you can approach anything close to a logical argument on this subject I'd love to hear it, but so far you've kneejerked your way into irrationality because of the subject matter.

[EFerrari]

66. LOL. I have shown you that California is not a welfare state.

Immigrants are a net gain to our economy.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/california/ci_14274340

They pay taxes.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

And since these immigrants live, work and pay taxes in our state, the court correctly found that they saisfy the residence requirement to pay in-state tuition rates.

It's pretty simple. :)

[Kurska]

78. When did I call California a welfare state? Who are you trying to argue with because it isn't me.

You're attempting to turn this into a debate on economic impact of Illegal immigration, which it isn't. You're also attempting to say that California isn't welfare state that is dependent on the federal government, something I never implied or even believed. You seem intent on arguing with someone who is saying words other then the ones I have, I'll leave you to that so you can indulge your straw men.

I've given you several opportunities to address anything I've said in my posts in a sound logical way, you have not so I am done with you. Happy trails.

[hunter]

49. I don't know about you, but I was born in the USA by accident.

There I was, in baby soul heaven, and some nasty stork grabbed me up and dropped me in Los Angeles.

wikipedia

All-in-all, I think I'd rather have been born in a civilized nation. Some place with socialized medicine would have been nice, considering how things turned out.

But it could have been worse. If I'd been born in one of the more awful places of this world, I'd probably be quite pleased if my parents had worked hard and brought me here to California, documented or not.

If a kid grows up in California, and attended a California high school, they are a California resident. It's pretty simple. If they've got the academic record to get into a California college, the odds are good they'll eventually contribute more than most to the state's economy. Maybe they'll even find a way past the racism and toxic nationalism that eats away at the foundations of human civilization.

[donco6]

73. +1

We're constantly encouraging our kids to consider college, whether they're undocumented or not. Sometimes I wonder if we're doing them a disservice, knowing they have to pay out-of-state tuition here. Maybe we should just hand them a shovel in 6th grade. Evidently that would be fine with some people here.

[jancantor]

47. It's not at odds with the reality of modern America.

(in state vs. out of state tuition). America is a Democratic Republic. Our states have far more autonomy than most every other nation in the world. States have different (in some cases very different) penal codes, tax structures, etc. Why should colleges be any different?

The reality of modern America is that our states are much more different than the equivalents in most other countries. Imo, that's a good thing, but whether or not you agree, it is A thing.

[TriMera]

77. If your friend lives in WA for 1 year, he gets in state tuition.

I was born in California and now I go to WSU and pay in state tuition. No big deal.;)

[Kurska]

79. For a working person who can barely afford college WITH instate tuition.

The economic reality for them is that they have to sit around for a year working their ass off before they can even continue their education. I don't think "Lose a year of your life because you moved" is a reasonable expectation for a 20 year old just trying to get by after some terrible circumstances drove them from home.

[TriMera]

81. I can't disagree with that. Even w/ in state tuition I'm

go deeper into debt with each semester. I'm not being sarcastic or trying to one up...just agreeing with you.

[Ginto]

27. If they know they are illegal, isn't the next step apprehension and then deportation? nt

[slackmaster]

52. People who are outraged by this policy are often uninformed about the details

Assembly Bill 540 created an alternate way for California high school students who fail the standard residency test to qualify for resident tuition.

The rules that allow an immigration-challenged California high school student to apply for resident tuition apply to legal residents as well. There are some specific conditions for people who are not legal residents, including certifying that they intend to make their immigration status legal.

http://www.registrar.ucsb.edu/residenc.htm

http://www.registrar.ucsb.edu/ab1543.htm

[Kurska]

61. "including certifying that they intend to make their immigration status legal."

This certainly makes this a lot more tolerable in my book, if it is indeed enforced and not just lip service. What surprises me is people who are actually arguing it is okay for some states to punish citizens for not being from their state, but reward residents who aren't even citizens.

[slackmaster]

63. That makes it more tolerable for me as well

It's generally not the kid's fault that his or her immigration status is not right.

[Kurska]

64. I'm honestly not trying to fault people for where they are born.

Which is why I've stated numerous times in this thread, I don't like in/out of state tuition. The crux of my issue is Citizens basically being rated second class by states in favor of residents. If those residents are in the process of becoming Citizens, then I can hardly blame someone for not being what they are trying to achieve.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. Reading the yargle-gargle-blarrrghing in this thread has been quite pleasant

Thanks for the schadenfreude, bigots.

[donco6]

72. Jesus, no kidding.

Wow. Eye-opening.

[Starry Messenger]

74. Seriously.

Jesus Christ.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

82. So, what about kids of people on H, L, E, O, J, Q, P, etc. visas?

Do they pay in-state or out-of-state tuition?

In the early 90s, when I was the college-age kid of an E visa holder, I paid out of state tuition (technically, my dad's employer did).

Even today, I'd have to pay OOT in some schools. I haven't checked if the rule is still the same here in NC.