Social democrats win Greek regional elections amid mass abstention (voting is mandatory in greece)

[Hannah Bell]

The Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) government of Prime Minister George Papandreou won the Greek regional elections in the second and final round of voting on Sunday.

The first round of voting, one week earlier, had resulted in only 2 of the 13 regional seats being won outright, prompting the second run-off.

In the second round, PASOK won eight of the country's 13 regions. Candidates backed by the party also took 73 of the country's 325 municipalities being contested. The other five regions were won by candidates backed by the conservative opposition party, New Democracy (ND).

As with the first round of voting, the abstention rate among voters reached a new record. In the first round, the abstention tally stood at a very high 39.01 percent, with a further 5.49 percent spoiling their ballot paper.

This increased markedly in the second round, with 53.23 percent of the electorate not voting. A further 11.67 percent of people produced a blank/spoiled ballot paper.

This means that nearly two in three Greek voters did not vote for a candidate in the second round.

This mass abstention is a particularly clear sign of growing discontent with “official” politics, as it is illegal not to vote in Greece...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/nov2010/gree-n17.shtml

[EmilyKent]

1. My, that was clever of voters.

[Hannah Bell]

2. it is when all the parties are enforcing austerity policies.

you apparently haven't read up on the political situation in greece, thus the uninformed yet nevertheless snarky comment.

[EmilyKent]

3. I'm well aware of the situation in Greece.

And it was uncommonly dumb for people not to vote.

Of course they're all enforcing austerity policies, Greece is broke.

[Hannah Bell]

4. why, in your opinion, was it "dumb"?

and since you're so well aware, you must be aware that the major causes of this "brokeness" have nothing to do with the targets of austerity.

[EmilyKent]

6. Greece is broke.

So are Ireland and Portugal, and they'll be next.

All parties are going to be pro-austerity in a situation like that. But if people don't vote, they don't get to choose their representatives on any other issue. If it was a protest, it was a pointless one.

The causes at this stage are irrelevant, they are still broke. In fact they'll be hard put to stay in the EU.

[Hannah Bell]

7. lol. their representatives all support the same program, as you've just said.

when you're unemployed, there's only one issue.

wtf does it matter which liar they vote for?

and they're not "broke," despite your insistence.

[EmilyKent]

9. On the economy, yes.

There are other issues you know.

And yes, they are broke.

I have no idea why you think Greece is actually wealthy, but lying about it.

[Hannah Bell]

13. as i said, there are no other issues when you're unemployed or unable to make

the bills.

and no, they're not broke. by definition.

[EmilyKent]

15. Lots of Greeks are employed.

And they have other issues to deal with.

Broke is broke...by definition.

The EU is trying to bail them out. And it's difficult considering the Greek govt lied again.

[Hannah Bell]

21. they're not broke, as i've already explained here:

and a bit disingenuous of you to say "lots of greeks have jobs" when throwing more of them out of work, & cutting the wages of those who remain, is a condition of the austerity program.

unemployment in greece is currently 12.2%, and will go higher.

[EmilyKent]

23. They are quite broke.

Unemployment is 12.2%....and will go higher.

Which means many Greeks still have jobs.

[Hannah Bell]

32. you're quite wrong, they are not broke, and since you offer no counter-argument to

mine, i conclude you don't have a clue:

1. what's going on in greece
2. what the definition of "broke" and "bankrupt" are.

12% unemployment is high unemployment; if 12% of workers are unemployed, you can bet that at least 30% of the population is feeling the pain, since each worker supports others directly (as breadwinner) or indirectly (as consumer).

[EmilyKent]

34. Believe in magic all you want, but they don't have enough

money to cover the bills.

And attacking another poster won't solve that basic problem.

It doesn't matter how much 'pain' there is...there are no magic words to solve it.

Same thing is happening in Ireland and Portugal.

[Hannah Bell]

37. the fact that you keep asserting it without evidence or logical argument doesn't

make it true.

and the fact that you offer no evidence, no logical argument, just keep repeating "broke" over & over like a broken record shows me --

you don't know what you're talking about.

[EmilyKent]

39. LOL it's on the front pages of the news.

So do stop playing games with this, it's a serious matter

[Hannah Bell]

43. if the front page of "the news" says greece is broke, then they don't know what

the word means either.

like you.

[EmilyKent]

45. Ahh everyone in the world is wrong, except you.

[Hannah Bell]

ah, straw man + personal attack.

[EmilyKent]

48. Like you're doing?

[Hannah Bell]

52. no, what i'm doing is saying: you don't know what you're talking about.

that's a fact, as you've just demonstrated.

you've also demonstrated you aren't interested in an honest discussion.

goodbye.

[EmilyKent]

58. 'Honest discussion' meaning agreeing with you?

I'm sorry but I can't do that. The rest of the world is aware of the Greek situation. Even China has offered to help.

Greece is in a right mess.

[laughingliberal]

51. It's not everyone in the world. It's the neoliberals and their lapdog media. nt

[laughingliberal]

49. And we all know the news always tells the truth and never spins it the way the PTB wants. nt

[EmilyKent]

55. More conspiracy theory.

[laughingliberal]

83. I'm done. If you believe the media acts in the best interest of what people need to know...

you're a lost cause.

Plus you already lied upthread when you said Hannah didn't provide a link.

[EmilyKent]

85. I said nothing about the media.

The financial news prints budgets.

And I didn't see any link. Once she reposted, I found it was an old report I read a year ago. I've even quoted from it.

Ordinary middle class.

[KamaAina]

164. That's actually not a whole lot higher than it is here

especially when you factor in the way we routinely lowball unemployment figures by not counting people who have given up looking for work.

Why, then, did more than half of 'Murkins just vote for the repukes/teabaggers, whose platform is, in effect, an austerity program? :wtf:

[crikkett]

149. You think it went unnoticed

that 30% and then 50% of a populace with mandatory voting rules, voted 'none of the above'?

This news is so big that it made it through our bubble.

[fishbulb703]

5. Europeans tend to take on a state of disbelief when social policies fail.

Something I wish more Americans had. Instead of not giving a rats ass about politics.

The corruption that is destroying our government and economy is spreading.

[aquart]

8. But it isn't the social policies that failed.

It is banking and investment regulation that failed. It is taxation that failed.

[EmilyKent]

11. Greece has no factories.

It has tourism and shipping.

In other words, very little income. Yet a tremendous amount of outgo.

Sooner or later this was bound to cause a problem.

[Hannah Bell]

14. oh, bullshit.

[EmilyKent]

16. Oh. Well. That solves everything.

Just call it 'bullshit' and things will magically resolve themselves.

[Hannah Bell]

20. you have no answer to the facts, do you? that's why you focus on the "bullshit" as though it were

the only thing i said.

Greece export goods: food and beverages, manufactured goods, petroleum products, chemicals, textiles

[EmilyKent]

22. The 'fact' is....Greece is broke.

And all the strikes and riots and non-voting don't change that. In fact it makes the situation worse by racking up more debt.

You are trying to put the cart before the horse.

When you are drowning, you need a lifesaver, something to pull you out of the water.

THEN you can worry about who sank the boat.

[Hannah Bell]

25. "broke" = no money. greece has money, income, assets.

you continue to misrepresent the situation.

greece has a level of debt & deficit spending that violates EU rules.

it is not "broke". it is not "bankrupt".

no more than a person with a $50K/year job is "broke" or "bankrupt" when he's carrying a mortgage of $100K.

please stop repeating false allegations.

[EmilyKent]

28. Yes, but not enough to cover what they owe.

Hence...bankrupt.

[Hannah Bell]

35. i didn't realize loans had to be paid off in one payment. first i've heard about that.

hence, not bankrupt.

the international banks, their cheerleaders, & the eu (the germans) simply decided to force policy changes -- and have the "legal" right to do so as long as greece is in the eu.

that doesn't equal broke or bankrupt.

you don't know what you're talking about.

[EmilyKent]

36. Bills have to be paid off, and they all have different

due dates. Greece can't meet any of them.

[Hannah Bell]

38. link? evidence they "can't meet any of them"? you have some inside

information about greek finances? you go to secret meetings or something?

no, you don't. you're just flinging poop hoping something will stick.

waste of time.

[EmilyKent]

40. I thought you said you were aware of the situation?

Apparently you don't read financial news.

[Hannah Bell]

46. so link me to where the financial news says the greeks can't meet ANY of their

bills.

should be easy enough, since according to you this is being reported on front pages everywhere.

[EmilyKent]

53. You're reporting Greeks aren't voting

because of austerity measures.

You think Greece is secretly rich, but imposing austerity measures for fun?

Politicians don't do things like that for kicks.

We've had over a year of reports on the Greek situation, as you are well aware.

[laughingliberal]

56. Imposing austerity measures at the behest of the World Bank and IMF. The owners demand it.

And they own the media.

[EmilyKent]

60. People who are owed money always demand it.

[laughingliberal]

70. They have the money. The tax cheats are robbing the country. nt

[EmilyKent]

76. Ordinary middle class people.

'Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.'

[Hannah Bell]

80. are you selectively quoting from the article you say i didn't link? lol.

The Socialist government faces an admittedly tough task. To climb out of the debt crisis, it must impose tough belt-tightening measures on a public that has seen politicians and businessmen get rich off the state for decades.

It was no wonder that Prime Minister George Papandreou sacked his tourism minister this week after press revelations her singer husband owed 5.5 million euros in taxes and penalties. Blogs went wild with calls to stop paying taxes unless authorities stepped in.

Opinion polls and street violence indicate people will resist austerity unless social justice is done, until blatant tax evaders and those involved in a long string of scandals are thrown in jail.

Given the widespread impression that the big fish never get caught, many Greeks don’t think it’s unethical to hide a little income from a state which gives very little back. At most state hospitals and other public services, citizens regularly get unsmiling, slow service and bureaucracy for their money. Most Greeks pay a “tip”, also known as “fast-stamp” and “little envelope” to get things done.

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2010/05/21/tax-evasion-becomes-extreme-sport-in-greece/

the rot starts at the top, bay-bee. the little fish cheat in self-defense, for self-preservation.

but glad you finally accepted the premise: there's plenty of money in greece.

[EmilyKent]

81. Ordinary middle class people.

Who freely admit it's a game.

This is old news reprinted btw.

I read this when the crisis first broke.

[laughingliberal]

86. Yes. She is. nm

[Hannah Bell]

71. yes, but only loan sharks demand that you kill your children to pay it

off quick, because they think your debt load is too high to pay it off in the usual time frame.

[EmilyKent]

74. LOL I doubt the Greek govt said that.

Or any of Greeks debtor's either.

[aquart]

17. Tourism and shipping don't make money?

Aristotle Onassis spins in his grave.

[EmilyKent]

24. Of course they do.

But not enough to cover the bills Greece ran up.

[Hannah Bell]

27. they more than cover the bills. rich greeks are cheating on their taxes, massively.

[EmilyKent]

29. Ahhh conspiracy theory.

Well that, along with the other magic words, solves it all.

[Hannah Bell]

41. no, reported fact. but lol for pulling out the "conspiracy theory" defense

that's replaced "commie!" as a personal attack to shut down debate in the internet era.

jesus christ.

you must have some skin in this situation.

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms

ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

[EmilyKent]

42. No it's not.

But there are no secret groups ripping off Greece.

And no, I have no money invested in Greece. No one with brains does.

Money is fleeing Ireland as well.

[Hannah Bell]

50. i linked you to an article about rich greeks not paying their taxes.

i expect you to acknowledge that FACT instead of replying with more bullshit.

go talk to yourself, you have nothing to contribute to discussion with anyone else.

goodbye.

[EmilyKent]

No you didn't.

[laughingliberal]

67. Well, here it is, again. NYT. nt

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms

Yoray Liberman for The New York Times
Signs of wealth abound in Athens, but only a few thousand Greeks out of 11 million declared an income of more than $132,000 last year, according to the Finance Ministry.
By SUZANNE DALEY

ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
Multimedia


Athenians declared taxes at a local office. Greek’s shadow economy represents 20 to 30 percent of its G.D.P.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

[Hannah Bell]

68. yes, i DID.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9573939&mesg_id=9574193

[EmilyKent]

73. They aren't wealthy, they're middle class

'Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.'

[laughingliberal]

82. Not the whole problem, no.

“There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,” Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. “You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

And you do realize you're quoting the article you denied Hannah had linked to, don't you?

[EmilyKent]

84. Yes, ordinary middle class.

And yes, after she posted the article, I read it and discovered an old report reprinted. Says the same now as it did then.

[laughingliberal]

89. Nope.

"with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,"

That looks like a tad better than ordinary middle class people.

[EmilyKent]

92. Yes, ordinary middle class people.

'Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.'

Hannah posted it herself.

[laughingliberal]

95. Yes. And what I posted is from the same article. The one you said wasn't there. nt

[EmilyKent]

97. If you'd stop bouncing all over the place,

you'd know I said I found the article, and it's an old reprint from over a year ago.

It clearly shows no one was paying taxes, including the huge middle class.

[laughingliberal]

102. It also said the wealthy don;t pay but you seem to be invested in protecting them. nt

[Hannah Bell]

103. the poster never met a rich person he didn't love.

[EmilyKent]

108. No one was paying their taxes.

Including the middle class in the article you're so fond of.

[Hannah Bell]

87. The rot starts at the top: Taxi drivers' cheating is a drop in the bucket compared to the big fish:

The Socialist government faces an admittedly tough task. To climb out of the debt crisis, it must impose tough belt-tightening measures on a public that has seen politicians and businessmen get rich off the state for decades.

It was no wonder that Prime Minister George Papandreou sacked his tourism minister this week after press revelations her singer husband owed 5.5 million euros in taxes and penalties. Blogs went wild with calls to stop paying taxes unless authorities stepped in.

Opinion polls and street violence indicate people will resist austerity unless social justice is done, until blatant tax evaders and those involved in a long string of scandals are thrown in jail.

Given the widespread impression that the big fish never get caught, many Greeks don’t think it’s unethical to hide a little income from a state which gives very little back.


http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2010/05/21/tax-evasion-becomes-extreme-sport-in-greece/

Greece's most exclusive beach club is the "Nammos" on the island of Mykonos, where the drink of the season is Mastiha, a brandy-based liqueur flavored with resin from the mastic tree. Konstantinos Tsakiris, 40, is gulping down a glass of Mastiha as he gazes out at the sea. "There's no crisis here," says Tsakiris, who is one of Greece's biggest ship owners and the principal owner of the Greek association football club Panionios Athens.

Luxury motor yachts and sailing boats are bobbing at anchor in the narrow bay of Psarou. The deckchairs at the Nammos are so coveted that many are booked in advance for the whole summer -- at €3,000 ($4,140) apiece. "You can do anything you want here, anything that's crazy and fun," says Tsakiris. He has the beginnings of a paunch, wears his hair short and has a large tattoo on his chest. Next to him, a Lebanese construction magnate is pouring champagne from a €250 bottle onto the heads of his young female companions. The Nammos is the kind of place where tabloid reporters get their stories.

But the celebrity club has also been making headlines recently on the political pages. The Greek finance minister has ordered the club's owner to pay a remarkably large fine, even issuing a press release to make sure the public knows the exact sum: €3,972,930.

On a balmy summer evening, Remos serenaded about 3,000 guests attending an exclusive dinner -- it was a "magical night," the papers wrote. But while "the celebrities and corporate elite were applauding Remos," tax investigators had gained access to the club through a back door.

What they found was -- absolutely nothing. Not a single invoice, "not one receipt," as the tax investigators told the press. But when they took a closer look at the club's books and the owners' bank accounts, they did find something, in the shape of €4 million that was unaccounted for.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,721704,00.html

[EmilyKent]

88. Everyone should pay their taxes. Middle class too.

And as the Spiegel article points out...Greece is broke.

Thank you.

[Hannah Bell]

90. der spiegel has a vested interest in calling greece "broke".

and "should" is irrelevant. when the big shots don't pay taxes, the people will cheat in self-defense.

big revelation, huh?

i see no reason the middle class should pay taxes when the rich don't.

[EmilyKent]

93. Everyone calls Greece 'broke'.

Because it is.

[laughingliberal]

110. Oh. "Everyone." Fail. nt

[EmilyKent]

111. Only posters here think otherwise.

[laughingliberal]

63. Lol. It's not a secret group. It's the same robber barons who are bringing everyone down. nt

[EmilyKent]

65. Oh THOSE evil doers.

They're still alive?

[laughingliberal]

75. Yes and thriving. We, for instance, have transferred somewhere between $5-23 trillion...

to them since 2007.

[EmilyKent]

79. I doubt that.

:rofl:

[laughingliberal]

91. Doubt it all you want. That's the estimate of the amount of the secret loans that have been...

made by the Fed since 2007. Otherwise, why are did they work so hard to fight off Congress on the audit of the Fed?

[EmilyKent]

94. A conspiracy I betcha.

Goodness knows,everything else is around here.

[laughingliberal]

98. No. Just plain old theft by the elite from the people. Here's a link about part of it:

Fed Defies Transparency Aim in Refusal to Disclose (Update2)

Nov. 10 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve is refusing to identify the recipients of almost $2 trillion of emergency loans from American taxpayers or the troubled assets the central bank is accepting as collateral.

Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said in September they would comply with congressional demands for transparency in a $700 billion bailout of the banking system. Two months later, as the Fed lends far more than that in separate rescue programs that didn't require approval by Congress, Americans have no idea where their money is going or what securities the banks are pledging in return.

``The collateral is not being adequately disclosed, and that's a big problem,'' said Dan Fuss, vice chairman of Boston- based Loomis Sayles & Co., where he co-manages $17 billion in bonds. ``In a liquid market, this wouldn't matter, but we're not. The market is very nervous and very thin.''

Bloomberg News has requested details of the Fed lending under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act and filed a federal lawsuit Nov. 7 seeking to force disclosure.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aatlky_cH.tY

[EmilyKent]

100. This is about Greece. Not the US Federal Reserve

or supposed plots in America.

[laughingliberal]

104. Here's where this part of the conversation started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9573939&mesg_id=9574286

Note where I said "We..." as an example of how people all over the world are being robbed. And here's more:

The Fed's Risky Backdoor Bailouts

The U.S. Treasury Dept. has been blasted for handing out huge sums of money to banks without clear taxpayer safeguards or ground rules for the recipients. Yet the Federal Reserve is pouring trillions into banks with little transparency. The moves have helped to shore up the wobbly financial system in the short term. But some of the deals could end up hurting taxpayers, weakening the central bank, and weighing on the economy in the future.

In one of its latest transactions, the Fed in November channeled $20 billion—more than the size of the proposed auto bailout—to a group of U.S. and European banks, including Société (SCGLY), Deutsche Bank (DB), and Goldman Sachs (GS), according to people familiar with the deals. The only evidence that the vast sum had changed hands was an entry on the Fed's most recent balance sheet called "Maiden Lane III" and a series of cryptic regulatory documents.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_52/b4114000208822.htm

[EmilyKent]

107. Maybe it did for you.

But the rest of us are talking about Greece.

[laughingliberal]

59. No. Just the typical theft the owners have been perpetrating world wide. nt

[EmilyKent]

61. Ahhh a global conspiracy then!

[Hannah Bell]

66. that's all you got. lame "conspiracy theorist" bullshit. cause you don't know

what you're talking about.

[EmilyKent]

69. You were leaving, remember?

Which is a good thing considering that so far you've come up with nothing but conspiracies, and some 'magic solution' you can't quite put your finger on.

Greece, however, remains broke.

[Hannah Bell]

72. i couldn't stand by while you continued your clueless lameness.

a terrible weakness, i know.

bye again.

[EmilyKent]

78. No, you continued it.

I hope this is your final round.

[laughingliberal]

105. No, global theft. Here's more about what they're doing here:

The U.S. Treasury Dept. has been blasted for handing out huge sums of money to banks without clear taxpayer safeguards or ground rules for the recipients. Yet the Federal Reserve is pouring trillions into banks with little transparency. The moves have helped to shore up the wobbly financial system in the short term. But some of the deals could end up hurting taxpayers, weakening the central bank, and weighing on the economy in the future.

In one of its latest transactions, the Fed in November channeled $20 billion—more than the size of the proposed auto bailout—to a group of U.S. and European banks, including Société (SCGLY), Deutsche Bank (DB), and Goldman Sachs (GS), according to people familiar with the deals. The only evidence that the vast sum had changed hands was an entry on the Fed's most recent balance sheet called "Maiden Lane III" and a series of cryptic regulatory documents.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_52/b4114000208822.htm

[EmilyKent]

109. They're all in on it!

Because everyone wants to go broke?

:eyes:

[laughingliberal]

112. "Everyone" isn't going broke. The people at the top are getting all the money transferred to them.

As Then they'll demand cuts to all our social programs to pay off our 'debt.'

[EmilyKent]

114. Well the number of billionaires isn't rising dramatically.

[laughingliberal]

115. uh huh nt

[Hannah Bell]

116. lol. just 27% in one year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/what-financial-crisis-number-of-billionaires-hits-new-high-1919449.html

[EmilyKent]

117. 'reflects growing power of Asia'

You didn't read this article any more closely than the last one.

Oh wait, is it an Asian conspiracy?

[Hannah Bell]

119. You said the number of billionaires was flat, now you're complaining because they're asian?

lol.

you're just arguing to be arguing. you have no interest in the topic, or knowlege of the topic.

just a knee-jerk economic conservatism.

[EmilyKent]

121. No, I said it wasn't rising dramatically.

We are talking about the western world...Greece.

If you want to talk about Asia, wouldn't that be a different thread?

And no, I'm a Lib/Dem not a Conservative.

[Hannah Bell]

123. no, we weren't talking about anything. you're having your private conversation,

for your own private reasons.

[EmilyKent]

124. Well I'm certainly not having one with you.

As far as I can tell you're boiling frogs and newts.

[laughingliberal]

153. Or a zombie conspiracy. nt

[ellisonz]

144. WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!!

it's fabian socialism, baby:o

[fascisthunter]

158. thank you for kicking this thread and for baiting Hannah for more info

I've learned alot during your debate on this issue. Hannah is very good at supplying facts to back up what she claims. Notice how specific she is.... you, not so much. This is a great way to counter your talking points, and because of this interchange, more readers will like learn too.

[David__77]

96. The KKE is anti-austerity.

People should vote for the KKE in Greece. It would lead a progressive government.

[EmilyKent]

99. Soviets already tried that.

[JVS]

106. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

[EmilyKent]

113. No thank you.

We've had quite enough of failed economic systems. Time for something new.

[Hannah Bell]

118. yes!! something new like -- AUSTERITY FOR THE PROLES!!!! YAY!!!!

[EmilyKent]

126. You're a prole?

From 1984, right?

[Hannah Bell]

127. you're not?

you're a brit & don't know what a prole is?

hmmmm.

[EmilyKent]

128. A prole is someone who does physical labour.

I'm in education.

It's from Orwell's 1984.

[Hannah Bell]

129. you're a prole.

[EmilyKent]

130. No, not even close.

Either that or you don't understand the word.

[Hannah Bell]

131. lol. so you're in education, but don't work for wages paid by an employer?

you own a charter school or something?

or you're a white-collar prole with illusions?

[EmilyKent]

132. I'm in a research project, and currently in Canada.

Proles were labourers, it's from proletariat.

I didn't know people used that word anymore.

[Hannah Bell]

133. do you get paid, or not?

[EmilyKent]

134. I don't work for free, although I would,

as I find this fascinating to study. But it's an annual payment from a foundation. An honourarium.

[Hannah Bell]

135. so, you sell your labor. case closed.

[EmilyKent]

136. There is no 'case' to be closed.

Apparently you don't know what the word 'prole' means, nor do you understand what I just said.

[Hannah Bell]

137. you said you work for someone else, & you don't work for free.

you get "an honorarium," i.e. a fancy name for a wage for labor.

case closed.

you live by selling your labor, not "investing" your capital and collecting profits or collecting your rents.

you're a white-collar prole with illusions.

[EmilyKent]

138. The Queen works, and gets paid.

She also invests.

But I very much doubt anyone would call her a 'prole'. :)

It's a 19th century word no longer used anyway.

[Hannah Bell]

139. does the bulk of her income come from her capital, or her labor?

if the answer is, "her labor," i'll be happy to agree with you that the queen is a highly paid prole, working in a residual sinecure for the ruling elite that replaced her.

But it doesn't appear that that's strictly the case:


"Head of State expenditure is met from public funds in exchange for the surrender by The Queen of the revenue from the Crown Estate. In 2008-09 the Treasury’s gross receipts in respect of the Crown Estate were £230 million."

http://www.royal.gov.uk/TheRoyalHousehold/Royalfinances/HeadofStateexpenditure.aspx

[EmilyKent]

140. I have no idea.

After all these centuries she has both in large amounts.

But I did look up the American definition of 'honorarium' for you.

'A payment given to a professional person for services for which fees are not legally or traditionally required.
Origin: Latin honōrārium, from neuter of honōrārius, honorary, from honor, honor.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language'

I had no idea Americans were still using 19th century words or philosophies.

[Hannah Bell]

141. it's pay with a fancy name. you do a job for someone else & get paid for it.

you already said you wouldn't work for free.

here's a clue: fancy names don't change wages into profits or rents, nor proles into capitalists. just because you do white-collar brain work doesn't make you any less a prole.

and now that we've agreed:

1. greece = not broke
2. honorariums = pay for doing work
3. you = prole

i will actually leave this stupid non-conversation.

[EmilyKent]

142. No actually it's not.

I said I don't work for free, not that I wouldn't. In fact I believe I specified that.

Here's a clue...you're talking about capital and labour, the capitalism concept from the 1700s.

Socialism and Communism were the rebuttal from the 1800's.

I don't think any of those systems are doing well in the 21st century, and it doesn't help to go back to them.

Proles are labourers, and even in England they're doing very badly. Which is why most people try not to be that anymore.

Yobs maybe, no one else.

Sorry, on edit I realize that's an Britishism. But I don't know what the American version would be.

[Hannah Bell]

143. here's a clue: you don't have one.

[Freddie Stubbs]

148. But the voters did not want them. Perhaps being anti-austerity is not a winning electoral strategy

[Hannah Bell]

161. actually, the communists made large gains. unlike both the mainstream parties.

so there goes that theory.

[Freddie Stubbs]

163. So, they did better than the shellacking they got last time, but still lost

[Hannah Bell]

165. um -- regional elections, parlimentary system. they didn't get "shellacked"

last time, & they increased their totals 10% this time.

41 regional councillors elected, 500 municipal councillors

[Freddie Stubbs]

147. Why are ALL parties in favor of austerity?

If it is that unpopular, why wouldn't at least one of them oppose it?

[crikkett]

150. For the same reason that "impeachment was off the table"

that's what I think

[Freddie Stubbs]

152. Everyone thinks that it would be politically disastrous?

[crikkett]

155. In one way or another, I think so.

and by 'everyone' I'm sure you mean 'only the politicians'.

In our case, see what happened when our Dem congress tried to subpoena Karl Rove. I don't think they would have prevailed and I do think that they wouldn't have been able to do anything but impeach, had they tried.

(Unfortunately I'm having difficulty remembering anything significantly progressive from Congress between 06-08. They raised minimum wage, and sent even more money to the Pentagon, right?)

[Hannah Bell]

162. i should have said: "all mainstream parties, all the large parties"

[readmoreoften]

10. I'm sure people here will assume that this is some sort of BIG FAIL or something.

PASOK is a lame duck despised by almost everyone. It's a vote of no confidence from a country that's slowing reuniting its left and discarding all sorts of neoliberal nonsense like Papandreou.

[EmilyKent]

12. Bankruptcy is generally considered a 'big fail', yes.

[Hannah Bell]

19. greece isn't "bankrupt". its budget deficit & debt is higher than the EU rules deem "OK"

If I make $50K/year and buy a $100K house, I'm not "bankrupt" -- not unless some asshole banker sends my job elsewhere.

Neither is Greece. It has income; it has assets. It's being targeted by international finance.

Your posts alleging Greek is "bankrupt" are the only things that are full of fail.

[EmilyKent]

26. Which is why the EU is trying to bail them out?

Their bills are far higher than what their assets can currently cover.

ie...broke.

[Hannah Bell]

30. no, the eu is FORCING a bailout on them. big difference. to make sure

the international banks get paid on the backs of the greek people.

how is it you can get every single detail so wrong?

[EmilyKent]

31. Um, Greece asked for help.

How is it you missed that?

[Hannah Bell]

57. lol. sure it did. that's their story & they're sticking to it. goodbye.

[EmilyKent]

64. Bye. Let me know when you find the magic word

that will make all this mess go away for Greece.

And Ireland.

And Portugal.

There are lots of countries that would like to know.

[laughingliberal]

122. uh huh nt

[readmoreoften]

101. Yeah, I meant the abstention from voting. Obviously bankruptcy is a big fail. And not the fault of

the masses in Greece, but rather the neoliberal thugs who conned their rich into the same scams they conned everyone else into. But the Greek rich weren't as rich as the exploiting classes elsewhere and now the money is totally out of their hands.

[defendandprotect]

18. This is a "None of the above" vote ... right? That's what we need ...!!

The candidates we're getting are being given to us by TPB --

been going on a long time --!!

[EmilyKent]

33. Yes, that's what they're voting.

Unfortunately they don't have any wealthy parties to vote for that can cover the bills.

[defendandprotect]

54. A little late to get to considering all involved in this -- but will try to catch up with

tomorrow -- obviously a lot to know!

:)

[laughingliberal]

77. +1000 nt

[JVS]

44. there is something familiar in this thread

[EmilyKent]

47. Yes, a year of countries going broke,

and people who don't want to believe it.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

120. It does seem when the people feel no one is representing them, they lose interest in voting. nt

[EmilyKent]

125. I'd agree with that.

It certainly seems like voter numbers are going down in most of the western world.

[ellisonz]

145. Modernity makes such things easy.

The strife and struggle of today is distant from the majority unless they are invested in it, massively affected by it, or willing to seek political thought out. The everyday struggle of the past is gone for all but the absolutely impoverished.

[Starry Messenger]

146. My my, that "foundation" must pay a handsome honorarium.

Zombies, I smells them. Our ConDem friend was busy tonight. Too bad for them. The commies are coming.

[laughingliberal]

151. And, yet, it lives. nm

[Blue_Tires]

154. that's a pretty thick turnout...

[Starry Messenger]

156. more:

[blindpig]

157. We are legion....

There are about 6 billion of us and about 6 million of them, somethin' gotta give!

[Starry Messenger]

160. Yes we are.

It's exciting to see it come afoot.

[leftstreet]

159. This thread needs a picture of a Prole Dancer

:spank:


Fascinating thread!

K&R