Why I go along with the TSA.

[hedgehog]

Think back to those days of yore, my friends, back to the afternoon of September10, 2001. George Bush was a laughing stock, rapidly becoming a meaningless non-entity in the White House. The economy was just starting its slide into the crapper.

The next day the country was attacked. Now, I don't think the country was attacked, I never did. IMO, 19 jackasses got carried away with their own rhetoric and committed glorious suicide, taking thousands with them. I was in the very small minority , however. Everyone else took it as a obvious truth that we were now at war. In the blink of an eye, George Bush, who had hopscotched around the country with less grace and courage than my chickens being chased by a dog, was ****OUR GLORIOUS LEADER****! The members of Congress had stayed on the job instead of scurrying to a hiding place, but they decided to stand behind George for the good of the country. Members of the press certainly realized he was just as much a fool as he had been the day before, but they stood behind him, for the good of the country.

LIHOP, MIHOP, ignore warnings to cut brush in Crawford, whatever the reason the hijackers succeeded, the results were that George Bush and his cronies were given a free hand for the next 8 years. As a result, not only was our economy looted, but we were dragged into two needless wars. How many thousands of people have died in those wars? How many thousands are trying to reassemble a life missing a husband, wife, child, family, limbs, missing a face?

To this day, many millions of our countrymen don't realize that the real damage of 9/11 wasn't what happened that day, but what our reaction was. Now, many here think the grope and grab or porn scan we must now endure to get on a plane is part of that damage, and I agree. But, I believe the alternative is worse. In my opinion, we do not have a choice between the TSA searches and going back to the way things were on 9/10/01. We have a choice between tightened security and having the next batch of fruitcakes with delusions of grandeur succeed in their attack. What would be the reaction? Would Sarah Palin be elected President? Would there be another needless war? Given the choice between a grope and even the risk of one person dying in a needless war, I'll take the grope.

[Safetykitten]

1. Great post.

[seabeyond]

2. when one is so dillusional they cannot even admit the underwear bomber would have made it thru naked

scanners, then how does one proclaim reason.

[Brickbat]

3. People rubbing my breasts before I get on a plane is not "tightened security."

It's a stupid farce.

[Safetykitten]

4. Our Homeland security knows more than us, so really they would not do this unless they needed to.

[GiordanoBruno]

7. That's right

The Government is just like your Mom and you're like a 4-year-old child.

They have your best interests at heart. They only want to protect you. Politics, Profit and Manipulation never enter the equation. Forget history, that's just silly. It's not like that anymore.

(BTW - don't listen to what people tell you, you shouldn't ever, ever, ever vote)

[truth2power]

12. Did you forget the sarcasm tag? Just asking. eom

[Safetykitten]

17. No.

[rexcat]

13. Do you think you could pile it up any higher?

The Department of Homeland Security is a reactive organization. If they were proactive you might have a point except for one issue. The Israeli government has the best airport security in the world and they do not plan on using the backscatter x-ray technology because they don't think it is effective. If you want good airport security go with the Israeli model, not what the TSA is cramming down our throats.

Being a frequent flyer (over 3 million miles to date) I can say that the TSA does not know what they are doing. Air safety starts and finishes with the passengers and crews.

[Safetykitten]

21. But Homeland Security and the administration are fine with these new rules.

I support Homeland Security and the administration. They would not do this unless there was a reason.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

27. Sorry, it doesn't seem like you have a good handle on how this works.

[Safetykitten]

35. I think I do. Our Homeland Security knows alot more than you or I, and we need to support.

[Brickbat]

39. Speak for yourself and keep me out of it.

[whatchamacallit]

41. Wow, talk about an apropos name...

:hide:

[rexcat]

51. The sad truth is they don't!

If it makes you feel better and you want your head in the sand by all means go for it. I have over 3 million miles on airlines and I can tell you TSA DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. It is all show with no substance. They are window dressing to make the public feel safe and to continue to fly.

It is also your right not to question. Personally it is people like you who are the greatest threat to our Constitution and our safety.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. Oh, there is a reason.

Just not the one they're telling us.

[a la izquierda]

46. Jeez, you sound like Brittney Spears.

Sorry, but you do. Listen, I travel a lot. A LOT. Internationally, most of the time. International security is pretty damned thorough, and it doesn't involve touching a person. When I leave Mexico, my luggage is thoroughly searched before I get to the ticket counter at most airports. Then it goes through an Xray. Then, my carryons go through the Xray machines, and I go through the metal detector. THEN I get wanded, and my carryons are hand searched. Meanwhile, all of this is under the watchful eye of the military and their dogs. If you look remotely suspicious, out of the line for questioning. Finally, before boarding, carryons are searched again.
Most Mexicans take buses (though flying within Mexico is pretty cheap) because the bus system is efficient and quick (unlike here). You can take a bus across large chunks of the country in no time at all. This is impossible in the US.

I am so at ease when I fly into the US from Mexico. When I fly in the US? Eh, not so much. It's a dog-and-pony show so that people will continue flying. It's bullshit. I truly hate flying in this country, but I don't have much of a choice when I have conferences to attend.

[treestar]

25. That involves profiling, though, so the left will be against it.

Israel is much smaller than the U.S. also, and would have more concentrated knowledge on who would have ties to terrorism.

Israel has walls surrounding it practically. The US is larger, open and porous. And has a Bill of Rights. That's why we all have to do whatever, even the proverbial old lady. We're not going to limit ourselves to checking young Arab men, lest the next terrorist be the proverbial old lady.

[sally cat]

33. How is passenger interaction profiling? Their method involves talking to passengers.

[uncommon]

45. Profiling is appropriate for this purpose.

Between normal security measures (metal detectors, baggage check, search when suspicious) and profiling we would be just fine. In fact, in my opinion we are just fine now. TSA should worry more about cargo security than what's in my underwear.

[seabeyond]

22. OBL was in iraq, too. nt

[avaistheone1]

23. Our government never would have lied about weapons of mass destruction

in Iraq with all its mushroom clouds and yellow cake uranium, They never would have lied about the rescue of Jennifer Lynch,
or the death of Pat Tillman. No, no, never. :sarcasm:

[Angry Dragon]

29. Are you safer today than 8 years ago??

Are you more afraid??

[GiordanoBruno]

5. Your Partisanship

is a silly distraction from the fact that your freedoms are gone.

The TSA leering at the naked body of a 16-year-old cheerleader and touching the genitals of someone's 13-year-old daughter isn't going to prevent another terrorist attack.

For you to pretend so is such a complete act of irrationality that I worry about you voting.

The choice isn't between genital touching and no security. No one is arguing that saftey and security aren't important. But anyone who supports a warrantless government agent touching the genitals of children is sick, sick, sick.

The choice is between a free country and a totalitarian state (a decidedly "American" version, but one nonetheless).

[postatomic]

6. I'll take 9/10/01

And if I have to be groped, scanned, and probed I want to have dinner and a movie afterwards at the very least. And I want them to call me the next day. I'm not into one night gropes.

If the TSA wants to do this then I want to see the Psychological Profile of the Pilot before I get on the plane. Has he/she just gone through a nasty divorce and feeling really depressed?

What the TSA is doing is reactionary. We don't need to pile shit on more shit.

[rexcat]

8. There are better ways than using x-rays on everyone who wants to fly.

These machines are not good for your health. There was no approval process for these machines by the FDA (personal correspondence with the FDA). NO studies have been conducted on the safety of these machines. There are no peer-reviewed articles in the scientific literature saying these machines are safe. The Israeli government is not going to use these machines at their airports because they think that they are not effective. Instead of being hysterical and going along with the TSA, who by the way are truly incompetent, why don't you advocate for good airport security?

I think I am qualified to say the TSA is incompetent. I fly every week and deal with these idiots on a daily basis. The TSA is a reactive organization. They don't know what the word proactive means. Airplane safety is up to the passengers and crews. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

[eShirl]

9. People generally go along to get along.

Most people will choose the path of least resistance, and rationalize a better reason to themselves as necessary.

(Not saying this is so in your case; just a generalization of typical human behavior.)

[GiordanoBruno]

10. Very True

That's why North Korea has lasted 50 years.

[hedgehog]

16. You are correct. I do avoid confrontation whenever possible. I would like to see

better security methods. For example, I'd like to see better controls on all the ships entering our harbors. We will never have perfect security methods since we are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole. I think we have to do what we can and keep refining our systems.

[GiordanoBruno]

19. Are any "Security Methods" out of the question?

Will cavity searches in shopping malls prevent "President Palin"?

Please dazzle us with more of your incredible wisdom.

[sally cat]

36. Yes. The successful ones that work for other countries.

[Dr Fate]

11. I always throw a few coins into their kettles at Christmas. n/t

n/t

[TexasObserver]

14. It's unfortunate that you think 9-11 justifies these excesses.

The country survived a lot worse from 1776-2000, including the theft of the presidency in 2000 by the Supreme Court.

The reaction to 9-11 by those in power has been one of the most unbalanced responses in the history of human kind, and this nonsense at airports is part of it.

[hedgehog]

32. Let me restate my premise: 1. millions of our country men

have a poor understanding of geopolitics and history and therefore confuse 9/11 with Pearl Harbor.

2. Bush , Cheney et all used this misunderstanding of the 9/11 terrorist act to maneuver this country into two needless wars.

3. Rather than risk even worse things happening in reaction to another terrorist incident, I'll cooperate with authorities on pre-flight searches.

4. To reiterate, I believe the damage of another terrorist incident would come from the reaction, not the incident itself.


Am I completely clueless? I think the changes made regarding border crossings have made us less safe. Having lived in Buffalo for many years, I have a lot of respect for the Immigration and Customs agents manning the border. So, I'd like to see the requirement for passports dropped and a return to previous practices.

Would I like to see the grope and grab/ porn scan dropped? Sure. My son made a good case that a metal detector combined with an explosives detector (puffer booth) would be the way to go. He also explained why that can't be done today.

[DainBramaged]

15. I agree so completely I'm hiding your thread

:eyes:


I guess someone has to stick up for the TSA, too bad it was you.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

20. Agreed, if that crotch bomber had succeeded

No one would have a problem with it. Why do we have to wait until it happens? And at least it is practical. Unlike the wars, which just create more terrorists.

[seabeyond]

26. crotch bomber would not have been detected by naked scanners. now what? nt

[treestar]

31. Then we are at the mercy of any would be crotch bomber

If there is no way to catch them first.

[seabeyond]

43. they arent by the naked scanners. they already have a way to do bombs

and get it thru.

so what sense does it make to force ALL the people not carry bombs either naked scan or grope.

that is why people are angry. that is why so many are not submitting and rolling over to our govt.

[avaistheone1]

30. Totally ridiculous

If this works Israel the most security conscious country in the world would be using it and they don't

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother

[uncommon]

47. How would these scanners have caught the "underwear bomber" exactly?

They look at the body right? Not the underwear that is on the body.

[durkermaker]

28. when you reach the point of strip searching those you are certain to be innocent

such as 10 year old girls and their grandmothers

it's time to consider profiling. to do this to them in any other context would be a sex offense felony

the case against profiling is to respect people equally, or to inconvinience them equally, not to degrade or endanger them equally

but that's where we are - how many rights are innocent people going to give up in the name of preserving our rights?

pluss, there are other options, like sealed cockpits and gun slits like armored cars for pistols with bullets that pierce flesh but not metal

or gas to put all non cockpit areas to sleep (and masks issued to air marshalls/flight crew), until perps can be restrained

since 911, I have greatly increased the distance I will drive. espeacially in the midwest, where most flights are 2 leg, by the time you take into account time spent booking the flight, extra packing time, arriving early, wasted time from flight schedule that doesnt match your needs, average delays, car rental time, you can drive 500 miles break even in most cases, with less hassle, you just get in and go, and you dont have to deal with anyone. Theoretically, you could drive 650 miles leaving work at 4, getting 6 hours sleep, arriving at 8am the next day without speeding in some cases

that covers a pretty good percent of flights, 10 hours driving, and in many cases, less hassle

[Nye Bevan]

34. Yes. The TSA is just so *smart*

[hedgehog]

50. I think you are missing the point here. The TSA is not afraid of snow globes.

The concern here is that a terrorist will fill a snow globe with an explosive liquid and pass it thru security as a harmless snow globe. Rather than depending on a faulty system to identify the one bad snow globe out of hundreds, all snow globes are banned.

[Individualist]

37. What a sad, submissive attitude.

[uppityperson]

40. facts and fallacies

Fact: 4 planes were turned into missiles 9/11 (not arguing mihop lihop missiles etc"
Fact: around 3000 people died then
Fact: there are people in the world that would be happy to commit mass murder
Fact: pilot doors are now better secured and the chance of people commanding commercial jets have decreased dut to this and it not being a surprise, how crew is supposed to react now.
Fact: cargo, baggage, isn't screened well enough yet.
Fact: there are a huge number of targets for bombings, not just planes, not must TSA areas. Been to a mall recently?


Fallacy: you can prevent every bad thing from happening
Fallacy: we are now "safer" than 9 yrs ago
Fallacy: preventing all bomb bombings can happen
Fallacy: preventing plane bombings keeps us safe

Would the reaction of the administration and the public be "attack invade another country" if a plane were bombed? How about if it was people involved with the last invasions/occupations?

Fallacy: the choice between a grope and even the risk of one person dying in a needless war.

[Angry Dragon]

42. Hedgehog

I have read many of your posts and have found then insightful and well thought out.
I am sorry to say this is not one of them.
People through out this country say that they want their country back.
All for different reasons. This is not the way to live, to be afraid
to travel in our own country. It is time for this madness to stop.

[uncommon]

44. People who would accept this would vote for that dingbat.

Honestly, what the fuck are one individual American's chances of being killed by a terrorist? 1 in 200 million maybe? About that I'd guess.

I'd rather have REAL security than this sham. Frisking me isn't going to keep America safe. Enforcing no fly lists, doing targeted profiling and performing stringent security on cargo and airport employees will do a lot more to protect us.

[durkermaker]

48. i think every passenger should have a waterboard interrogation

that will make us safe

[grahamhgreen]

49. NO ONE at ANY Government agencies saved ANYONE on 9-11. It was the passengers that saved

the capitol.

Empower US not the LOSERS.