Don't give me the: "Look at the Republicans being mean to us!" without also giving me...

[Dr Fate]

... the "Look at what the Democrats are DOING about it!"

That is my new standard here on DU, and encourage other fighting DEMS to adopt it.

Whenever there is a thread with the theme of "Look at all of these awful things the Republicans just did to us..." we need to balance it with "...and here is what DEMS are doing about it." Or at the least- "Here is what I think Democrats should do about it."

This goes for the media too. Don't just tell me "Look at what the mean old media just did to us!" without including what Democrats are doing or should be doing to counter it.

Don't just give examples of how awful Republicans are- include examples of WHAT DEMOCRATS ARE DOING ABOUT IT, or what you think they they should do.

Too often all we get is examples of how Republicans are fighting us, and then excuses for why we cant fight them back.

I'm asking DUers to make an effort to come up with WAYS TO FIGHT Republicans as opposed to excuses for not fighting them. I'm also asking DUers to debate OP's and posters who cant seem to do this.

Yes, I know that the mean old Republicans and the mean old media are doing mean old things to us- but if you bring this up, I will insist that you also offer up WAYS to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. It would be interesting more DUers started noting this and bringing this up as well.

Again-Don't give me the: "Look at the Republicans being mean to us!" without also giving me the "Look at what the Democrats are DOING about it!"

[vi5]

1. Agreed X1,000,000,000

I'm tired of hearing how just because the Republicans are big and mean and bad and sneaky that it excuses the multitude of ways that our elected Democrats let themselves get mowed over at best, or are complicit at worst.

Again, as you point out same thing with the media. Yes, when we have our most aggressive, most articulate, and most fearless Dems on all of these shows, fighting back left and right, and showing consistent messaging from the top, only to find their answers being sliced and diced and edited to death then o.k. But until that point stop complaining and start working to fix it.

[Dr Fate]

3. "only to find their answers being sliced and diced and edited to death"

We are on the same page.

This is a perfect example. Can you give me one single example of an elected Democrat going on the record and saying that his answers were sliced up, or that his mic was cut, or that he was othersise censored, etc? They could exist, but I have been asking DUers for these exmples for years, and have yet to see them.

If the media really is censoring & distorting the words of Hillary, Harry Reid, Pelosi, Senators, congressmen, etc. everytime they go on TV then - I have yet to hear them SAY SO. And I have yet to hear them say what they are going to DO about it.

How about call Wolf Blitzer out to his face: "Last time I was on your show you censored my response- do I have your word that you will not do that this time?" If he edits that, post the facts on the DNC website, or the WH website. Do it again, again and again until it becomes conventional wisdom that Democrats are being censored by the media.

Assuming that DEMS really are being censored or banned from media- I have my doubts. They certainly are not bringing up examples of it if they are.

Yes-there is always a way to fight back for every excuse made.

[vi5]

7. Not one example that I can think of....

So the blame to the media only goes so far. If we put up our worst faces on these shows and give poor performances and don't have the right people out there doing messaging, then the blame to the media itself only extends so far.

Why is the Democratic leadership not doing everything in their power to free up more of Franken's time to do these shows and pushing him to the networks? He's funny, he pushes back, and he doesn't get riled up or flustered. Sadly, he's one of only a few examples I can think of from the Senate. But my point is the same. Make more good, telegenic, aggressive Dems availabe for these shows and maybe take some manpower and resources away from incessant fundraising and put it towards better media bookers and media consultants and have people working on that as much as they do sending out "urgent" e-mails begginf for money.

Believe me, if I thought my money would be going towards a better DNC media operation I'd have no problem donating again.

[Dr Fate]

10. I read that this was Franken's choice. Otherwise, we agree.

I thought I had read that Franken wanted to be seen as the Senator for his state, not a National DEM. It is his choice to only do local markets, etc.

Still, we are on the same page.

[Winterblues]

2. What Democrats are doing about it

[Dr Fate]

4. Pretty much sums up a lot of threads around here.

Anytime someone says DEMS should fight back, we get rolly laughy guys and speeches about lost ponies.

[Winterblues]

5. Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than for Democrats to fight back..

I have held that wish for more than a decade and still wish it to happen..They do have some pretty dry powder though..

[Dr Fate]

6. At the least, we could get more DUers to see this and call this out.

I dont know what good it would do, but it would certainly be a little more interesting that just crafting out excuses all the time.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. Yeah that's my take. When I first saw your headline.......

I thought, "Uh oh, you're going to get a lot of flak from the 'hide in the closet Dems'".

It's sad to me that some people on this relatively leftist Democratic site seem to think that Dems shouldn't fight back at all. Seen, but not heard seems to be the motto for those folks. I STILL think it's because we've had a generation of Dem politics grow up under the shadow of Reaganism. They don't even know HOW to fight for the Dem platform.

And to do what you asked for in your OP, ALL real Dems should be CONSTANTLY standing up for Democratic principles ALL THE TIME. Even if you aren't as far left as some of those principles, you should STILL support the airing of those views as widely as possible, even while disagreeing with them. How are you going to get a "centrist" compromise when the compromise happens between the right and the EXTREME right?

[BeFree]

8. You Pointing your finger at me, man?

Here's what we should be doing...

Protesting in front of every media office. And after that grows big enough we invade.
Shock and Awe, dude. Shock and Awe.

A proven application, this Shock and Awe, business.
Of course the only bombs we drop are verbal bombs... agent Mike, ya got that?

You want some slice and dice?
Years ago, an activity that I was organizing included some media coverage.
I persuaded a young reporter to cover the activity.
Well, some real hard news came in that would blow it sky high, even the reporter was excited.
The story was printed.

I asked the young reporter why the meat was left out.
He said his editors wouldn't print it.
Sliced and deiced, dude.
It fucking happens so don't feed me bullshit telling me it don't. That's a FAIL.

[Dr Fate]

9. Am I? I am not familar with your threads or posts, at least not by your handle.

This thread is about what ELECTED Democrats IN POWER are going to do to fight conservatives. My fault for not making that clearer.

At the least, I'm asking DUers to tell me what they think DEMS IN POWER should do to counter an attack or slight against DEMS, as opposed to just making up an excuse for why they will not or should not fight back.

I invite you to be more specific about the "bullshit" I'm supposedly feeding you in my OP.

Can you give an example with a LINK of an ELECTED Democrat saying that he was censored by the media?

The point is that if media censorship is happening, and elected DEMS cant SAY it is happening, and then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, then I see 2 problems, not one.

In other words, if DEMS did not SAY they were sliced & diced and if they did not make an effort to expose it nation-wide, then they did not DO SOMETHING about it, did they?

[BeFree]

15. Ok

So what was I supposed to do when the press sliced and diced my story?
Who was I too complain too? And wouldn't any complaint just make me look like a whiner?

You state: "...if media censorship is happening,"
That's your BS right there.
And then you go on to complain that no one is complaining, whilst all you offer is a complaint with no solutions. IOW, you don't admit it is a problem and then you complain that it must not be a problem because no one is complaining.

So, what IS your solution?

[Dr Fate]

17. You misunderstand my position.

If media censorship is happening- then I need to hear elected DEMS SAY it is happening and then I need to see them make a a PUBLIC effort to expose such censorship

I'm sure your story was sliced up by the press. Why not slice up your story? You are powerless, and you have no way to come back and exposing the censorship. NOT SO for house hold named elected DEMS with ongoing , on camera media access. Elected DEMS DO have the power to come back on TV later and say "Such and such interviewer censored me in such and such a manner." I've never seen this. Never.

So do you see why I am focusing on elected DEMS here? These are the people who have the most power to act.

Assuming this is also happening as to on camera interviews with elected DEMS as well, then why are they not talking about it and exposing it?

If the media is censoring elected DEMS, and elected DEMS are not exposing this and fighting it, then I see 2 problems, not one. You have yet to link me to a documented example of an elected DEM showing that he was censored. Having trouble finding one? Me too.

So yes- the media is biased- is that a 100% iron clad excuse for not doing more to expose such bias? Does it stop top-name DEMS from going on TV and saying things that the media refuses too? If so, I need to hear elected DEMS say so with documented examples.

If the media truly is banning elected DEMS, cutting elected DEMS mics, refusing equal time for elected DEMS, ect- then surely they could post all the examples of this on the DNC or WH website, for instance. Why wont they?

That IS my solution. SAYING that censorship exists, listing and documenting examples of it and bringing it up every time it happens is a solution in itself.

What is yours?

[BeFree]

24. The Dean Scream

You know why you don't read about it or see it on the News?
Because they don't cover it when they get caught.
When they do cover it they say the complainer is whining.

So, like the Dean Scream, all we can do is abide the slams.
You know they slice and dice, right?
Or am I to understand you think they don't?
Because, you wrote, again: "If the media is censoring elected DEMS" IF??

[Dr Fate]

26. A great example of media bias. Thanks. It refutes nothing I said about how to fight it.

Yours is not really an example of the media censoring or banning DEMS, but I do agree that it was bias.

I did not see too many elected Democrats going on TV in an organized effort, identifying the bias and attacking the media for what they did to Dean- most DEMS in power went with the media frame (as they usually do) and blamed Dean for being inexperienced.

Many elected DEMS and DEMS in power piled onto Dean after he screamed, instead of really going after the media.

These elected DEMS took the easy, lazy way out. A perfect example of what I am talking about.

YES- the lefty bloggers, activists, commentators, etc. like you & me have identified examples of media bias.

Are elected DEMS getting our back on this? Are THEY working hard to educate voters and to identify and fight this bias? Do you now see my point?

YES- the media is biased- we have a legit excuse. SO WHAT ARE ELECTED DEMS GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

[BeFree]

27. What can they do?

It is an honest question.
They can complain on a website.
They can preach to the choir.
They can spend a zillion bucks on paid advertisements.

Like I said, what we can do is Shock and Awe the media offices.

Otherwise, what do you suggest ELECTED DEMS do to counter the slice and dice?

[Dr Fate]

28. I already gave you some of my ways to fight it. Waiting on yours.

My idea was that Elected DEMS should start documenting and listing examples of media bias and censorship. Maybe you are just skipping over much of what I am writing? Here, I'll say it all again:

If Hillary's on camera interview gets sliced & diced- then she needs to SAY SO. ON CAMERA on another show (Like Ed Schultz or Maddow), on CSPAN, Daily Show, in a local Op ED, etc. Same goes for Harry Reid, Pelosi, whoever. They all have continuing media access, and I've never seen them do this.

If elected DEMS are having their mics cut, interview footage sliced & diced, banned from interviews, etc- then they can document all this on the KO show- right? How about on their own websites? An Op-Ed piece in a Liberal magazine? On the floor of congress? Never seen elected DEMS do it. You may be able to find one or two examples (I cannot)- great- but it is obvious that we need more examples of DEMS exposing this.

DEMS need to to SAY the media is biased and give examples of it every other breath- just like the GOP did with their successful "Liberal media" talking point- except our charges will be true.

Surely you can come up with WAYS for elected DEMS to expose media bias as opposed to merely letting them use it as their fall-back excuse.

[BeFree]

29. heh

You sliced and diced my own words.

And now, I bet you call me a whiner for pointing out that fact?

[Dr Fate]

32. No- I'm just waiting on you to come up with WAYS to fight, as opposed to excuses.

Love all your detailed, point by point refutations and comments on all the ideas I have suggested, BTW.

I'm sorry if you think I twisted your words- I agreed with you that the media is biased- we have yet to agree on whether DEMS have options or should have plans to combat it.

Any ideas for WAYS to combat media bias- or is it your position that elected DEMS should just sit back and continue to take it?

[Dr Fate]

35. Kick. n/t

n/t

[Hannah Bell]

31. you're right, they're powerless against the mighty pubs.

[Dr Fate]

34. We gotta love the winner attitude, here huh? '12 is a shoo in.

;)

[Dr Fate]

11. Clarification: I am mostly talking about elected DEMS or DEMS in power.

I should have made that clear in the OP but it is too late to edit it.

I am asking us to discuss what elected DEMS plan on doing to fight the conservatives, as opposed to excuses for why they did not/cannot/will not.

[vi5]

12. When the Dems do something good

then it is because they are great and good and we should bestow upon them great praise and glory.

When they do something bad or outright reprehensible, it's clearly because we didn't support them enough or we didn't do enough of something.

At least this is the "Heads I win, Tails you Lose" mentality that a (thankfully diminishing) number of DU'ers want us all to adopt.

[Dr Fate]

13. This is not about Democrats doing "something bad". It's about Democrats not fighting back...

...when Republicans do something bad. More or less.

I hear you- I've been accused of "making DEMS look weak" by merely pointing out areas where they could have fought back, but did not.

Seems like this lack of fighting back is what made them "look weak"- not my observation.

[vi5]

14. No, I 100% agree....

Again, my mimickry of the ridiculous arguments made by sensible, safe, moderate cautious types on this site gets the better of me.

My point is that I dont think the elected Dems feel they have to fight. They are so complacent about "Well who are you going to vote for, the republican?" that they think they can just get by on that alone so they don't have to fight.

[Dr Fate]

16. Well, at least three, count 'em- THREE Duers are interested...

...in breaking down why we make excuses as opposed to ways to fight. 4 if we include me, the OP.

Perhaps that says something.


You are basically saying that they refuse to fight out of laziness or fear of retribution ie "cautious"- we agree. I see this all the time too.

[socialist_n_TN]

23. As I said above........

a lot of Dem politicians of today don't know HOW to do confrontational politics, even if it's confrontational in self defense. They've grown up in the shadow of Reaganism and don't know anything else.

[Dr Fate]

25. Or, in some hopefully rare cases, they simply agree with the attacking conservative.

n/t

[phleshdef]

18. That argument doesn't fly because MOST elected Dems want/wanted to do the right things.

MOST Dems supported a public option, just not enough to get past the filibuster. You can't judge the whole caucus based on the actions of 4 or 5. But the Republicans, every single one of them opposed this.

Take public option out of the above sentence and replace with any given policy we failed to bring to a final vote for passage.

The same goes with the house. Yea, a few dozen blue dogs, maybe a little more, voted against some of the more progressive measures that were put forward, but a large portion of them voted for those measures, enough that a lot of those measures actually passed Congress but went to die in the Senate. But every single Republicans in Congress voted against those things when it mattered.

You could put a public option on Obama's desk and he would have signed it. You could put a full, reliable DADT repeal on his desk and he will sign it. You put a national infrastructure/jobs program on his desk and he will sign it. But the problem is getting that to his desk and its only a handful of Democrats that ultimately prevented those things from happening. But you can easily blame the entire Republican caucus in both houses for opposing all those great things 100% because they did.

Your argument doesn't fly. It doesn't fly today nor will it fly all the times you say you intend to bring it up in the future.

[Dr Fate]

19. My argument that we should defend ourselves does not fly? Which part, exactly?

The part where I say that Democrats should fight back aganst Republican attacks, or the part where I say that many Democrats would rather make excuses for why they cant/wont/dont?

Seems like both prongs of my theme are "flying" quite well, unfortunately.

This thread is not about wheter DEMS got the PO or not, at least not directly. It's about elected DEMS who wont fight back against GOP attacks, and the DEMS on the ground who constantly make excuses for why this happens.

[phleshdef]

20. I think I'll have to fess up to a lazy reading job of your OP.

I shouldn't post anytime before the 3rd cup of coffee.

[Dr Fate]

21. No worries- thanks for the kick! n/t

n/t

[Hannah Bell]

30. +100. sick of the posts about the mean pubs, about the latest palin outrage.

[Dr Fate]

33. How about all those posts about Scalia and his conflicts of interest?

Try going into one of those threads and demanding that elected DEMS investigate, talk up impeachmnet hearings, etc.

You will be bombared with excuses, mark my words. If you are lucky, you might even get accused of "making DEMS look weak"- apparently for merely noticing their unwillingness to fight back.

They want to get us all in a lather over all the mean things that the GOP is doing, so long as you do not demand that DEMS fight back.