6-Year-Old Girl Shoots, Kills Deer

[The Straight Story]

6-Year-Old Girl Shoots, Kills Deer
Indiana Girl Nabs 6-Point Buck On Opening Day

MISHAWAKA, Ind. -- A 6-year-old girl shot and killed her first deer on the opening day of deer hunting season in Indiana.

Grace Peregrine Zerbel loves princesses and the color pink. But she also enjoys hunting with her dad.

"Daddy took me turkey hunting and he got a turkey and he called it mine, but this is really mine because I shot it," Grace said. "He shot the turkey. I shot the deer."

Her father, Tim Zerbel, said he has to hold the gun for Grace because she's so small "but she kind of sights down it and then when it's ready we check and double check and pull that trigger."

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/25825646/detail.html

[TwilightGardener]

1. What fun.

[DainBramaged]

2. Why is this important?

:eyes:

[MineralMan]

47. Does it have to be important? Lots of stuff is posted in GD

that isn't important. Bristol Palin's DWTS nonsense, for example. Why not just skip the unimportant OPs?

[orleans]

100. (crap--i just started a thread about dwts--i didn't see another one)

on edit: i just went to look for it and can't find it. so it's either been taken down RIGHT AWAY! or i screwed up trying to post it.

just as well.

[NeedleCast]

90. Irony. Palpable.

[time_has_come]

218. translation: don't post stuff I don't like.

wahhhh

[YOY]

3. Um...OK.

Love ya SS but how's that news?

[The Straight Story]

7. how is a royal engagment news? It is interesting (nt)

[orleans]

101. is this lbn? or general discussion? n/t

[YOY]

106. Seems more like a news story about a cat scratching a post.

Mundane non-news. Not even entertainment.

Guy takes young daughter hunting. Daughter bags deer. Later mother serves potatoes.

Sort of stuff that goes into the lounge.

[awoke_in_2003]

420. "Mundane non-news"...

I was an LBN mod for several terms- I thought that is what GD was for :hide:

[Bryn]

4. Great! She will grow up to be like Sarah Palin

[HuckleB]

6. No. She might actually know something about the outdoors.

Palin doesn't know jack.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

318. No true Scotsmen, eh? (n/m)

[madmom]

26. I went hunting when I was young, grew up around guns, and believe me I am NOTHING like palin.

[Brickbat]

84. Not necessarily. But you knew that.

[Codeine]

217. No, but she'll have an honest understanding

of where meat comes from, how life can end suddenly, and how to respect and safely operate a firearm.

[Enthusiast]

396. Being a female hunter

does not make one like Sarah Palin. Millions of rural people hunt, perfectly reasonable people. Just tonight I picked up a deer from the processor. We will eat every spec of that deer and hope to get more before the season is over.

[uppityperson]

5. Good to learn gun safety at a young age. Seeing the result of shooting is an eduation

shows you what can happen

[Hoopla Phil]

371. Yep, I remember my first time seeing what a 3006 did to the rib cage

of a deer my father shot. I was 10 IIRC. I can still picture the destructive force from that gun shot. I made a big impression on me.

[slackmaster]

8. She's lucky to have a father who loves her and does stuff with her

A lot of kids don't have that.

[blueamy66]

234. WooHoo

Wish my Dad would have taken me out to kill deer at the age of 6. What a lovely memory.

No thanks, I'll stick to the bowling alley memories.....Jeez....deer hunting at 6???????????

[Dyler Turden]

9. What an odd headline.

I have to shake my head.

[MadHound]

10. And this has happened thousands of times over the years

Good for this girl, she is learning about gun safety, nature and our environment.

[HuckleB]

14. Indeed. -eom-

[Evasporque]

19. nothing safve about a six year old firing a high powered rifle.

What next...a UZI...? O they did that didn't they...helped a nine year old right into the grave.

[MadHound]

24. If you noticed, the article did say her dad was helping her hold the gun

But hey, if you want to knee jerk on this, fine, go for it. Meanwhile this girl is happy, her dad is proud, her family has meat for the winter and there is one less deer off the roads to potentially kill innocent people.

[Winterblues]

30. one less deer off the roads to potentially kill innocent people.

America...The Home of the Brave

[MadHound]

41. It is estimated that 150 people are killed by deer each year

Not to mention that over a billion dollars worth of damage is caused by deer on a yearly basis. Not to mention the fact that deer carry ticks with lymes disease, eurlichiosis and other diseases fatal to man. Oh, and deer are one of the main vectors through which Mad Cow disease is spread.

This country is currently overpopulated with deer, has been since we eliminated deer's natural predators. Which would you rather have, a nice controlled hunt or just let the deer eat and overpopulate, causing immense damage to people and the environment?

[hedgehog]

66. That's OK -wait until everyone figures out that coyotes

and mountain lions are moving in to take care of the deer!

[knitter4democracy]

80. Coyotes are here in MI, and they're still not able to take care of the deer.

They had a kill of 80 deer a couple years back at a agricultural research station run by MSU--there was no decrease in the crop damage at all. None. It was as if they hadn't done anything. Deer here are like rats, and we need more hunters to balance the population until the coyote population gets big enough.

[hedgehog]

137. There are coyotes in my parents' suburb, Amherst , New York.

They are the only check on deer except for cars because there is no place to hunt there. These coyotes are big, almost the size of a wolf. I just hope they fill the niche before the cougars return!

I think in general people would rather have a few human hunters in the fall than a major large animal predator year round!

[MadHound]

154. Living out in the country I welcome all animals, predators and otherwise,

After all, they were here first. I'm the one who should adapt to them, not the other way around.

We are getting some large coyotes out here in Missouri as well. I think that they're rather cool to listen to at night and I consider myself lucky everytime I catch a glimpse of one.

[hedgehog]

167. I live on an old dairy farm that's been going back to woods for 50 years,

so I hear you about sharing the land. I'm able to afford to, since the only stock we run is my flock of chickens. Generally, the critters stay away from the house. The only real problem I had was this summer when a sick fox (mange) took out about a dozen of my birds.

The real problems start when new suburbs are built, especially when they push into land that wasn't farmed. That's when people start encountering bears and cougars.

[fishbulb703]

My grandparents have a similar situation... but we call them woodchucks :P nt

[cornermouse]

312. If you believe that's one of the main ways mad cow disease

is spread, why would you want to eat or think its a keen idea to eat the carrier?

[MadHound]

333. First of all, it isn't a belief, it is a known fact.

Second of all, if a deer is showing signs of Mad Cow, you want to kill it anyway, for the good of the community, and no, you don't eat it.

Third, a deer with Mad Cow is pretty easy to spot. If they are far enough along in the progression of the disease, there will be noticeable symptoms, trouble walking, trembling, lack of fear response, etc. However most hunters that I know make one simple test to tell if the deer is sick or not, they open up the cranium and look at the brain. If it looks like a nice, densely backed grey mass, hey, head cheese for all. However if it's looking like a sponge, then the deer is only fit to mount, if that.

[cornermouse]

339. And yet, you were saying eating the deer made it okay

for a 6 year old to be shooting a gun that powerful. You can't have it both ways.

The problem here is with putting a gun in the hands of a 6 year old child that is powerful enough to kill a deer and too heavy for her to hold by herself.

[MadHound]

355. No, that's YOUR problem,

The fact of the matter is that most kids learn to shoot in this fashion, with a parent supporting and steadying a gun while the child aims and fires. Why? Because it is safer this way. A child doesn't anticipate, has no clue about the power of the recoil on a gun until they actually fire it. Plus, you don't want an unsteady set of muscles supporting a gun, throwing off the aim to a dangerous degree. This is how I learned as a kid, and millions more like me, and there were no problems.

Yes, eating the deer is the purpose of hunting, but if the deer is diseased, you don't eat it. Then it is simply a matter of community service, getting rid a diseased animal before it infects others, including, potentially, humans. Do you let disease spreading rodents run around loose in your house? Probably not. Think of killing disease carrying deer as the same thing, just on a larger scale.

[PavePusher]

364. Guns that can kill deer need not be particularly powerful.

I know 6-year-olds that can shoot a .223 all day long.

[PavePusher]

365. Also, the gun was demonstratably in the hands of both the child and the adult.

So why the manufactured hysteria? Selling fear this week?

[Enthusiast]

399. Humans are a deer's natural predator.

We have been predators since we became human beings.

[PavePusher]

246. Very different circumstances....

very different firearms.

But hey, why be reasonable when you can have so much fun with baseless hysteria?

[TheMightyFavog]

293. Recoil from a deer rifle will knock your average six year old falt on thier ass.

And that young, I doubt she's had Hunter Safety class. Father should be fined.

[TwilightGardener]

20. Yep, can't learn about and appreciate nature unless you're slaughtering it.

[MadHound]

25. Death is part of life, having creatures kill and eat other creatures is part of nature

If you want to live in a land where the lions lay down with the lambs, I suggest you go immerse yourself in Disney and such.

[DrDan]

33. making a sport of it goes beyond what you describe

[MadHound]

44. How is this being made a sport?

The dad held the gun, the girl aimed and fired:shrug: Not much sport there.

But hey, it's OK to have human cock fighting on the TV for the kiddies to watch, but god forbid one of them kills a deer:eyes:

[DrDan]

141. "6-point buck" - why mention the "trophy" if not considered "sport"

just don't understand people who see such heroism in killing.

Who said it is "OK to have human cock fighting on the TV for the kiddies to watch" - certainly not me,

[MadHound]

153. Probably a reference to the deer's size,

Not the "greatness" or "sport" of the kill. A six point is generally fairly average, you would have seen the father and rest of the county jumping up and down if it how been ten or twelve points. Instead, all you saw was a reference number:shrug: No sport there.

Yes, I realize that *you* didn't say it was OK for human cock fighting to be on TV, but it is there nonetheless, and lots of kids watch it. Yet we hear very little outrage about kids watching two men beat each other senseless. But if a kid kills a deer, oh the horror. Sorry, but I have trouble taking such outrage seriously.

[DrDan]

158. and I agree we should be up-in-arms over children's programming

as we should with the poison being handed out by McD's and the like.

But . . . considering the crap the adults tune in to (bristol and her drama) and the crap adults put in their bodies, we both know that it will not happen.

I would have thought a reference to the deer's size would have been expressed in pounds. But what do I know.

[PavePusher]

250. Evidently, very little about hunting or the terminology. n/t

[DrDan]

259. it is a gap I prefer to keep - I will leave that activity to those seeking trophies - and bravado

[PavePusher]

277. Celebrating your own ignorance?

How anti-profound. And sad, on a progressive web site.

Also, very arrogantly assumptive of others intentions.

[DrDan]

283. celebrating a "kill" is not something I care to associate with

[fishbulb703]

300. It is a reference to size, and therefore the amount of venison that family will have in the freezer.

deer burgers! yummy

edit: or do you think they throw the dead animals into a gorge

[DrDan]

301. no - I don't think that at all - nor do I think they were referencing size

it was a measure of the trophy soon to be hanging in the house.

[fishbulb703]

317. ok so you have the head and most of the neck accounted for. nt

[PavePusher]

321. As long as they eat the animal...

what is the problem?

[DrDan]

322. the concept of killing as "sport"

[PavePusher]

327. If you eat what you kill, it's not "sport" in the sense you are claiming.

A sense that was by no means evident in the original article. You seem to have brought it up out of thin air.

[DrDan]

330. oh I see . . . the reference to the "6-point" trophy was just made up

[PavePusher]

354. There was no reference to "trophy" until you pulled it out of thin air.

The O.P. article makes no mention of the word "trophy". As has been explained to you previously, refering to a buck (male beer) by the number of points in its antlers is a common way of conveying approximate size and maturity of the animal. Generally speaking, smaller and younger deer would have fewer points, older/larger animals more. It can be used in reference to a "trophy" animal, but in this case was not, until you dragged it in.

[DrDan]

357. oh - does it say "size and maturity"?

of course not - but you are not "dragging" in anything - now are you.

[PavePusher]

361. And, as has also been mentioned previously, you are demonstrating...

nay, nearly reveling in, your ignorance on the subject.

[DrDan]

372. 6-point trophies

http://www.deerhuntersclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/295/size/big/cat/


"It was a 6-pointer that nearly scored 170!" My friend was telling me about an incredible buck that was killed in southwest Kansas during the 2002 season.

http://www.greatplainsgameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail-deer-hunting/gp_aa071303a/


HUGE TROPHY 6 POINT WHITETAIL BUCK DEER MOUNT HEAD

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-TROPHY-6-POINT-WHITETAIL-BUCK-DEER-MOUNT-HEAD-/260694203725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb295dd4d

[PavePusher]

381. Well, since we are referencing the ORIGINALLY POSTED ARTICLE...

Seriously, put those goal posts down, you've had enough exercise and you're just gonna throw your brain out at this point.

[DrDan]

389. well don't try to tell me that hunters do not see trophies in the 6-points

it so so obvious that they do

[PavePusher]

393. Not in the O.P.

And that is what this particular conversation was about.

Well, until you came along.

[DrDan]

394. nor is "6-point" mentioned in the context of size

well - not until . . .

[PavePusher]

397. Perhaps you missed my post #362?

Huh, nope, you replied to it. Twice.

[DrDan]

395. oops - dupe

[MadHound]

356. As I pointed out, the reference to six points is a general measurement of the overall deer size

I mentioned nothing about trophy in that regards, you are the one who is putting words in my mouth. Stop it.

[DrDan]

358. does it say - "deer size was 6-points"?

nope

so - who is reading between the lines.

[MadHound]

360. Oh geez, a non hunter wants to get into a semantic argument about. . .hunting

:banghead:

OK, let me explain this to you in a very simple manner, because, after all, it is very simple.

Let's say I went to the local cafe and met a friend of mine who had been hunting. I ask him, "How big was it (the deer)." He responds, "Oh, nothing to write home about, six points." In that simple answer my friend has conveyed the information that the deer he shot was of pretty average size, and since he is hunting for the table, he will probably need another deer that size to get enough meat for his family for the year. Get it? Hunters usually don't carry measuring tapes and scales for exact measurements, so the point size is a short hand indication of the general size of a deer.

Got it? Understand now? Good, let's move on because this is getting really stupid.

[DrDan]

375. well - explain this then

HUGE TROPHY 6 POINT WHITETAIL BUCK DEER MOUNT HEAD

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-TROPHY-6-POINT-WHITETAIL-BUCK-DEER-MOUNT-HEAD-/260694203725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb295dd4d


don't tell me these "sportsmen" are not sizing up their trophies as they pull the trigger

[MadHound]

383. Geez, you are obtuse, aren't you

The vast majority of hunters shoot the deer that they see. They aren't sizing up the deer for trophy purposes. For most hunters, deer is meat, the head is secondary.

As far as your little ad goes, well, first of all, if you look at that trophy, can you honestly call it HUGE? Sorry, but you are using a hyperbolic for sale ad to make try and make your point. Second of all, I would be willing to wager lots of money that the rest of that advertised deer head was eaten and enjoyed. Yes, people will mount deer heads, as well as use the hide and such. Much like the Native Americans, using every possible part of the animal that they can. So let's see, if I can get a good quantity of meat, a nice hide to snuggle up in, and then sell the mounted head, well that's bonus money.

Tell you what, get back to me when you can find a reputable statistic that shows that most hunters are shooting a deer only for the head. I know I'll be waiting a long, long time, because there is no such statistic out there.

[DrDan]

455. hilarious - not a trophy, huh?

http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=13508615

watch the video

I suppose you will now try to tell me those antlers will be used to make some broth.

[fishbulb703]

385. and those same hunters burn the huge, meaty, delicious carcasses. no eating allowed... silly

[haifa lootin]

405. Actually I think it's pretty tacky, I prefer to let the forest critters have a share, but how is it

any more objectionable than the typical religious symbol of a "CROSS", an instrument of torture and death that's essentially worshipped by millions of 'christians'?

[DrDan]

428. not a Christian - but I thought the cross represented re-birth - a return to life

[PavePusher]

362. We are reading common colloquialism, idiom and vernacular peculiar to...

the activity of hunting.

You are indulging in purposeful obstinance, arrogance, assumption, and accusation from a position of celebrated ignorance after repeated polite attempts to provide you with remedial knowledge.

I think we're done here. Good day to you.

[DrDan]

373. 6-point does not refer tothe deer as a trophy?

http://www.deerhuntersclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php/ph... /


"It was a 6-pointer that nearly scored 170!" My friend was telling me about an incredible buck that was killed in southwest Kansas during the 2002 season.

http://www.greatplainsgameandfish.com/hunting/whitetail... /


HUGE TROPHY 6 POINT WHITETAIL BUCK DEER MOUNT HEAD

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-TROPHY-6-POINT-WHITETAIL-BUCK-...

[DrDan]

378. do you consider hunting a sport?

are you a "sportsman" because of your cunning, prowess and ability to kill without risk to yourself save a few mosquito bites.

[kurtzapril4]

353. Antler size is not necessarily an indicator

of the amount of meat on the deer. Could be a young deer, with lots of meat, could be an old one, with not much meat. Body weight field dressed would be a better indicator, but I understand using points instead. I don't know many hunters who carry scales into the field, but I do know some.

Vis a vis throwing the dead animals in a gorge, I haven't seen that, but I've seen headless deer carcasses left to rot in the woods around here. Twice in the last 5 years. Disgusting to waste food like that.

I really don't like the spiel that some hunters spiel...that it's a way to get in touch with nature, blah, blah blah. BS. You can get that from a walk in the woods...just admit that you're going out to kill something, to help put food on your table. There's no dishonour in that. And there's something decidedly strange about teaching a six year old to kill animals, but whatever. If you're not old enough to hold a gun, you're not old enough to shoot it.

Not a hunter, but I don't have a problem with it. I have a certain amount of respect for people who go out and kill their own food, which I quite frankly could not do. Deer have quite the overpopulation problem around here. I would be fine with re-stocking cougars and bobcats, but then people would have to start keeping a better eye on their kids. ;-)

[fishbulb703]

387. Good points. Obviously you understand the benefits of a good wilderness.

I just can not fault that those that want to hunt game. I disagree with those that eat the kill, but its nature. We are the ultra predator. Hunters cant come close to wrecking the havoc on the environment as any factory. Besides, even if the hunter leaves his game uneaten, he is still engaging in nature, and being a part of the direct, environmental sustaining life cycle that our planet thrives on.

[PavePusher]

320. I do hope you are a vegan....

and own no leather products.

[DrDan]

328. why - did I say anywhere I objected to hunting?

[PavePusher]

359. If you eat meat, you celebrate death.

It's pretty axiomatic, really. Something must die in order for you to live. (I presume you celebrate your own life, if not, my sincere apology.) There are many ways to celebrate such death. Saying grace. Painting a representation of your prey on a cave wall. Dancing around a fire in its skin. Appreciating the cyclical nature of life, and what forms of it you will feed upon your own death.

"Imagination"... it's a word in the dictionary between "ignorant" and "impenetrable".

[DrDan]

379. no food wrappers hanging from my walls celebrating my bravado

[cherokeeprogressive]

416. "Points" refers to the number of places on a deer's antlers one can hang a wedding ring from. n/t

[PavePusher]

249. Do you eat meat?

If so, do you responsibly harvest it yourself? (Judging by your verbiage, I'd say not.)

Or do you leave that filthy task to the untouchable classes?

[DrDan]

268. I didn't say I had a problem with hunting - just making a sport out of killing

[PavePusher]

248. You're reading into it something that isn't there. n/t

[DrDan]

271. and what would that be

[joeybee12]

35. Yup, until you see the blood and guts sprayed all over the place,

you'll never be an environmentalist.

[MadHound]

45. Spoken like one who has never hunted.

Generally blood and guts don't "spray" all over the place. There is bleeding from the wound, and some bleeding from the mouth and nose. But very little body material "sprays"

The blood and guts parts comes when you are field dressing the deer, and we don't know whether or not this man allowed his daughter to witness that.

[TwilightGardener]

83. Yup--and whenever I see birds in my yard,

I'll send my cats out. It really enhances my appreciation of the birds when I hear them squawk and cheep in terror and try desperately to get away. I won't understand the birds fully, unless I watch them die. It's nature, death's a part of it. Let's make it happen.

[PavePusher]

251. Invalid equivalence. But you knew that.... n/t

[TwilightGardener]

274. See post 25.

[PavePusher]

279. Your hyperbole ill-serves you. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

282. Perfect analogy, in context. Hunting today is not about "enjoying nature"

or "appreciating the environment" or even "getting out into the woods", all bullshit that you hear from hunters. Because you can do that without causing something to die. Nor is it about free meat--that's bullshit, these people are well-fed and their gear and licenses cost shitloads of money. It's about wanting to watch something die, in a socially-approved situation. It's about wanting to shoot something and watch it die, and you can't shoot people. It's a way to shake up your soft candy-ass modern existence and feel like a real man for once. I'd have far more respect for hunters if they just came out and said that. At least it'd be honest.

[SteveM]

302. More culture war from the ignorant...

Why should hunters "just come out and say that?" You aren't going to respect hunters anyway, right? Let's be "honest," now.

I have hunted for over 50 years and I do not get a thrill or kick out of watching something die. Your deeply hateful and stereotyped prejudices are responsible for the public turning away from the anti-hunting cult. That's a good thing.

You really should jettison your bigotry and get down to the critical business of conservation, instead of engaging in the "soft candy-ass" rhetoric of anti-hunting cultists.

BTW, I "enjoy nature," "appreciate the environment," "getting out into the woods." And your "free meat" straw is in YOUR own imagination.

[PavePusher]

You make a number of hyperbolic assertions...

with a marked lack of evidence.

Do you want to calm down and have a rational discussion, or are you merely here to pitch a fit?

[MadHound]

345. Oh thank you all knowing TG,

I'll have to tell my BIL that he and his family are well fed and they can afford to buy hamburger at the store again:eyes:

They, like millions across the countryside, are members of that most unknown group, the rural poor. They can't afford store bought meat. They raise a lot of their own fruit and veggies, and yes, he and his son, my nephew, hunt for food. But people like you would rather see them starve than actually provide for themselves. How despicable, especially since, like I said earlier, this is repeated millions of times across the country. Not all the poor live in the city and have access to such urban services as foodbanks and such.

First of all, gun and gear are built up over time for most hunters. They get this stuff in Christmas and birthday presents, handed down through generations. Secondly, most hunters need just a pretty basic kit, some camo overalls, a blaze orange hat or vest, an appropriate gun and ammo, and a good deer knife. Things like a blind can be built out of scrap lumber and such.

You ignorance on this topic is amazing, the arrogance you're showing in combination with that ignorance is astounding. But hey, let me guess, you still enjoy a good burger or steak:rofl: Frankly I would rather eat a deer that lived its life roaming the woods than a cow that suffered a lifetime of confinement in a feedlot.

[SteveM]

298. You merely think YOUR method of killing is more moral...

We ALL kill to live; some by hunting, some by proxy (meat under cellophane), some by abstraction (vegetarians who eat foods from vast farms where whole ecosystems have been wiped out.

Which are you?

Your kind of smarmy hysteria is what gives conservation and pro-nature policies a bad name.

[Brickbat]

86. If they're spraying all over the place, you're doing it wrong.

[SteveM]

297. Try hunting sometime -- and you'll realize your ignorance...

A proper shot on a deer (heart/lung area, which is quite large) most often results in a small entry wound, and somewhat larger exit wound. Usually, you have to get down on the ground at the point of bullet impact to even find blood spray and a few hairs. Then, if you track a deer, you will continue to LOOK for blood. The deer usually piles up within a hundred yards. Almost all the blood is bled out into the body cavity.

The "guts" you refer to are removed by the hunter falling proper field-dressing practices; in fact, with the kind of shot referred to above, all the organs below the diaphragm are completely undamaged -- including the guts. But even a poor shot into the paunch area will not splatter and sling guts everywhere. If you want to see this, I am sure there are videos of predators in the dog/wolf family which can provide you with the techniques of pulling guts from a prey animal -- using teeth, of course.

Hunters CONTINUE to be in the forefront of conservation, easily eclipsing many other "environmental" organizations. If hunting is eliminated, the constituency for conservation/preservation will be severely limited, and you can then take pictures of nature, trusting such subjects will quickly fade away.

[Brickbat]

299. Good point about conservation -- a lot of states are facing a loss of money to go toward wildlife

programs and conservancy because of a loss of revenue from hunting licenses.

[PavePusher]

247. If it's dinner, it ain't "slaughter", except in a very technical sense.

Unless you're a vegan, maybe.

[KansasVoter]

168. LOL.......you left off the sarcasm tag!

[MadHound]

172. Why do you think there should be a sarcasm tag?

Have you ever been hunting? You learn about habitat, animal habits, how humans effect the environment, etc. etc. Not to mention how to safely handle a gun.

[blueamy66]

200. She is learning to be a dumbass.

just like her father

[MadHound]

237. Why is she learning to be a dumbass?

Have you ever hunted? Do you know what it entails to hunt down an animal? You have to learn all about that animal, what it eats, where it hangs out at various times of the day, the environment it lives in, it's habits, it's physiology and anatomy, etc. etc.

She's also learning where food comes from, what mortality is, and answers to other such questions. Not to mention gun safety and other such handy stuff.

Let me guess, you've never hunted and are simply knee-jerking on this one: Hunting, guns bad, Bambi good. Trouble is, mankind has wiped out deers' natural predators, and they are overrunning the countryside at an alarming rate, bringing all sorts of problems along with their population explosion. Problems such as killing around 150 people per year due to car/deer collision, and tens of thousands of injuries. Over a billion dollars in damage due to car/deer encounters. Deer are rife with diseases that they pass on to man, things like lyme disease, ehrlichiosis, encephalitis, and Mad Cow, all of which kill hundreds and hundreds of people each year. Not to mention the billions of dollars of damage caused by deer each year to crops and such. I know that first hand, having to replace several sapling fruit trees because rutting deer in the fall came up to the tree, rubbing their antlers, and took the sapling down to a stub. Sorry, but that's a few hundred dollars that I really couldn't afford.

I think that it is OK for kids to go hunting that young. Personally, my father waited until I was a couple of years older, but I was fishing when I was four, and all the meat, fish, fowl or deer, wasn't wasted, but was eaten and enjoyed. In fact it was these early childhood experiences of hunting and being out in nature that helped turn me into the ardent environmental activist that I am today.

You may not like to hunt, that's fine. But don't insult those who do. You only make yourself look foolish and narrow minded.

[Life Long Dem]

243. Overrunning?

But how does this concern me in the big city? :sarcasm:

[kurtzapril4]

370. OT: Deer don't get "Mad Cow Disease"

Cows get it from eating ground up spines/brains from other infected animals(sheep, cattle) that are ground for feed, and fed to them on feed-lots.

Deer don't eat the spines/brains of other infected animals. They don't habituate feedlots, that I know of.

Deer get something called "Chronic Wasting Disease." It is a transmissible encephalothapy, and somewhat related to Variant Jacob-Kreutzfeld, aka "Mad Cow" in that both diseases are based on something called a prion. According to the CDC, hunters should avoid eating the brains, spine, spleen, liver and eyes of deer in areas where CWD has been confirmed.

Lyme disease is passed on by deer ticks. As far as the damage they cause to cars and people...oh well. That's the price of the priesthood, so to speak. We build roads right through their habitat, kill off all their predators('cuz they're dangerous), and then mow down the woods and plant all sorts of stuff that they like to eat. Deer like to graze in meadows. What is a cornfield or a suburban subdivision other than a big meadow with lots of tasty stuff planted all over the place.?

But, as I said up-thread, hunting is fine by me. I don't bitch when the deer eat stuff I've planted. Frustrated...sure. I'm by no means rich. But I also accept that they were here first.

[MadHound]

388. Actually they do,

CWD and Mad Cow can, and are being passed back and forth between deer and cattle populations via ticks.

And while I can see, and appreciate your point about cars and deer, the fact of the matter is that this would be a lot less of a problem if humans hadn't driven out deers' natural predators, namely mountain lions and wolves. Until we restore viable populations of those predators it is best for all that somebody or something thins down deer herds, and the only creature left is us, humans. You may be blase' about deer eating your garden, but when you're a farmer whose life and livelihood depends on your crops, it is a much more serious prospect when a herd of deer eats and tramples half your crop.

[blueamy66]

429. NOPE. Have absolutely no interest

in watching an innocent animal die at my hands.

Don't like guns, AT ALL.

Not my thing....but hey, go ahead and kill deer....have at it...the meat tastes yucky anyway.

Narrow minded? Me? I laugh....

[MadHound]

460. Let me guess, you would rather have your meat preprocessed

Eating meat raised in a confined feeding operation, tortured before their slaughtered. How very noble of you:eyes:

The fact that you don't hunt, yet in your ignorance continue to pass judgment on those who do, well that is the height of hypocrisy. Enjoy your burger.

[PavePusher]

252. Open bigotry on D.U. How classy.... n/t

[blueamy66]

430. Please

don't hurt my feelings

Sorry, I'm my father's daughter....and I share many of his beliefs....

Bigot? I laugh again.

[SteveM]

305. My, the culture warriors are now taking on 6-yr.-olds. Brave.

[PavePusher]

325. And yet...

they are still out-classed and class-less.

[SteveM]

401. The class-less society -- (Groucho) Marx

[haifa lootin]

406. As a Democrat, I've been called an effete priss. I am beginning to see why.

...

[PavePusher]

451. It's just the company you keep...

:rofl: :toast:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

11. That's creepy

The little girl probably cheers during "Bambi".

[MadHound]

15. I doubt it,

This isn't creepy, nor is it anything new. Young kids have been learning to shoot for hundreds of years. In fact back in the day it was the kid's responsibility to bring in the small game for dinner, rabbits, squirrels and such. This girl is starting on big game, good for her.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

21. I wonder if she has any concept that she killed something

It bothers me, and I'm not against hunting at all. I just have a problem with kids that small losing their innocence and they don't even realize it.

[MadHound]

29. I'm sure she did,

Most kids that age are cognizant of the concepts of life and death. And frankly the notion that a kid should hang on to their "innocence" for an extended period of time is really a modern aboration. Hell, my mom and dad both were helping with the slaughter and processing of farm animals at an early age, as young as this girl. You live in the country and you come to grips with mortality at a young age.

[HuckleB]

109. She knows the deer is dead.

And she may remain more "innocent" than many of her peers. Hunting doesn't mean the loss of one's innocence.

[backwoodsbob]

145. I brought home dinner MANY times at a young age

and yes I understood something died for that dinner.Rabbit mainly.Then I moved on to deer when I was ready.

Country life is different.Children learn the whole cycle of life stuff at an early age.

[Xenotime]

278. Well said. Aren't there laws keeping guns out of children's hands?

[PavePusher]

331. Mostly laws on proper supervision.

I can't think of any state that has a minumum age for use of firearms with no exceptions.

[SteveM]

309. You should read M.K. Rawlings' "The Yearling." Now, THAT is "loss of innocence."

Rather than drag around a lot of misconceptions from an early age, maybe we should start out with a little honesty. Too many times "innocence" is a fairy-tale which is routinely disproved in later life. A "good" innocence would be running free in the woods, chasing butterflies and squirrels, thinking you can do it indefinitely; losing such is to return home from college and see the woods bull-dozed.

I think this little girl will do fine.

[cherokeeprogressive]

418. Should six year olds go fishing? n/t

[proteus_lives]

163. Bit a of broad-bush.

Most hunters are the most respectful types toward nature and animals.

[Codeine]

219. Better that her meat should come in cellophane from a well-lit grocery

so everyone can pretend she's not eating a dead animal. At least she'll have an actual understanding that every slab of flesh people wolf down was once part of something as alive as you and I.

[PavePusher]

253. Why would any responsible parent let their kids watch that piece of crap?

Completely invalid world-view.

[SteveM]

307. Felix Salten, author of "Bambi: A Life in the Woods" was a hunter...

He knew a lot about the deer in Europe; Disney later converted the animal to (presumably) a whitetail deer. Salten had his own hunting preserve outside of Vienna where he and his buddies hunted deer.

You should have seen the smile on my face when I shot a 10-point buck with a 17.15" inside spread! That was last year when I was 61, feeling like had lost 55 years.

You should try it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

316. Sorry man, I don't get off on killing

If that's your thing, good for you. I understand there are plenty of deer.

When I was six, I was looking at some robin's eggs in a nest and dropped one and it broke. It affected me greatly. If an animal was attacking me I would defend myself but thankfully I have found many ways to keep myself young without killing.

[PavePusher]

337. Do you eat meat?

If so, you are responsible for killing.

And your implication that someone "gets off on killing" is both unsupported by evidence and flat out obcenely insulting.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

346. Please read the post I was responding to

He made it sound like a sexual experience.

[PavePusher]

366. There are a lot of reasons that experience could make one feel good.

I suggest you use your imagination and rational thought, rather than knee-jerk assumptions and what seems to be nearly bigotry.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

380. LOL

Seems I've hit a nerve. At the end of the day, the guy is getting his pleasure from ending something's life. I doubt he'll be as poetic about it as you'd like him to be.

He told me I should "try it", so he knows I'm not a hunter and therefore would not have any of the memories of good times past with daddy or motivation to do it anyway, so why don't you take your own advice and use some rational thought as to what it is he thinks is so goddamn fun that I need to experience?

[PavePusher]

382. Self-reliance and skill at providing for your continued existence...

doesn't give you pleasure?

I do feel sorry for you.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

386. I can work on my car or fix the sink and feel that

I love bringing it back to life and not having to pay out the ass for it. That takes skill and I feel it will help my continued existence.

I have no great craving for deer meat so my continuing existence doesn't come into it there.

I really don't care if you feel sorry for me because I don't want to kill something just to feel good about myself.

[PavePusher]

390. Self-delete, double-post. n/t

[PavePusher]

391. Gosh, miss the point much? Even when you walked right through it.

Since you insist on being intentionally obtuse, just take it for granted that different people get satisfaction from different things. And stop insinuating that someone else is mentally unsound because they enjoy other things than you.

[SteveM]

400. We all kill...

directly (hunting), agent (supermarket), abstraction (agriculture).

I am under no illusion that hunting (killing) keeps me young. Just honest and in touch.

[leveymg]

12. Grace - Didn't your Dad tell you? Now, you have to eat the whole thing.

Hope you REALLY love those venison burgers, and ribs, and chops, and don't waste the internal organs and brain.

[SteveM]

310. Man, I had the best vennison chilly the other night...

I shot a buck last year, and gave a local cook (vegetarian restaurant, here) some steaks and sausage. He invited several folks over and they marvelled at how good it was.

I eat deer throughout the year, thus allowing me to quit purchasing "shot-up" beef. Shot up meaning routine anti-biotics, preservatives, hormones, etc. At least this buck lived a good life, and had a more than even chance to escape most hunters. And he went down quickly with my well-placed shot.

[Evasporque]

13. ...high powered rifles are not toys.

"Daddy put the bullet in like this and then, oh this is heavy....BOOOM!"

[PavePusher]

369. Many deer rifles are by no means "high powered". n/t

[bluedigger]

16. Are you kidding me?

Was it tied to a post?:wtf:

[Codeine]

220. A rifle isn't hard to aim.

I was a pretty damned good shot as early as age eight. Especially for a youngster it's a pretty straightforward skill to learn.

[bluedigger]

285. I only have my own experience to draw on.

I grew up in Maine, where most adult hunters fail to get their deer. It's not due to their ineptness, either. I can't imagine taking a six year old into the woods hunting. A friend once wounded a deer and spent all that day and the next tracking it to dispatch it. He lost it in a swamp, and was very upset. I guess places where you go to the deer farm and have an seasonal 18 deer limit are different...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. 6 year old girl loves, pink, princesses, and killing.

[PavePusher]

254. broad-brush hyperbole, much? n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

286. Hyperbole?

Just repeating what the article said. Or, maybe it was her loving parents that delighted in her killing?

[deaniac21]

18. That would be a dog bites man story in Arkansas.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. I take MY daughter out to see Nature and other things without guns involved.

I guess that makes the education I'm giving her inferior. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

27. No, just different. Why are people so critical of others that do things differently than they do?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. You mean like those people who say opting for not having guns is "shirking personal responsibility"?

Yeah, closed-mindedness at its best.

[uppityperson]

36. Yes, and those who take offense because they are doing differently

I agree, close-mindedness comes in all stripes. There are all sorts of ways of doing things and just because someone does something one way doesn't mean others are inferior.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Doesn't mean they aren't, either.

I'm not too hot about cultural relativism.

[uppityperson]

60. True.

[HuckleB]

181. Who indicated that your way was inferior?

:shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

183. Nobody, I pulled that out of my ass because I have mental problems.

Leftists are like that, you know. If X is a leftist, and Y is a defect of character, then X has Y. :eyes:

[HuckleB]

187. Uh huh.

:shrug:

[BrklynLiberal]

23. Her parents must be so proud...........

When is she having her photo op with the barracuda?

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Brickbat]

88. I would be. I'm learning to hunt because my son wants to.

[BrklynLiberal]

129. ...

:(

[Brickbat]

131. ...

:shrug:

[HuckleB]

194. What the fudge?

What kind of response is that to a fellow human being?

:thumbsdown:

[Brickbat]

207. I didn't take it personally. I'm sorry I made them sad, though.

:)

[HuckleB]

414. Well, good on you!

:toast:

[SteveM]

313. My Dad taught me to hunt at an early age. We are ALL proud. nt

[MrScorpio]

28. Daniel Boone kilt a bar when he was only three...

So, what's been taking this little slacker in Indiana so long?

[TexasObserver]

37. Daniel Boone was a man, was a big man.

Fess up. You watched him.

[YOY]

74. That was Davey Crockett.

n.t.

[Recovered Repug]

174. Fess Parker played them both, so it's the same thing.

[TexasObserver]

32. Killing them is easy. Dressing them is the skill.

Anyone can kill a deer if they can point a gun and pull the trigger. Especially today, when setting out corn to feed deer is common practice, which makes shooting them when they come to eat really easy.

I remember a time when it was not considered acceptable to set out feed to lure deer in.

Anyone who can chase a deer down on foot and kill it with a knife has done something. Anyone else killing a deer has nothing to brag about. As comedian Ron "Tater Salad" White observed "yeah, they're real hard to kill; I got one with a van when it ran out in front of me."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Even a Formula One driver got one once.

Warning: graphic.

http://f1nostalgia.blogspot.com/2009/07/pancadas-incriveis-stefan-johansson.html

[uppityperson]

40. Oh deer. nt

[uppityperson]

42. True, I hope she was involved with that part also, give her an education

[TexasObserver]

52. I haven't killed a deer in decades, but using their meat is essential to ethical hunting.

One can eat ethically whether one eats meat or not. Killing deer without properly harvesting the meat is unethical, IMO. Any kind of trophy hunting is.

I quit hunting decades ago, when canned hunts and stocked feeders changed the nature of it.

[SteveM]

314. How do you dress yours?

I get my deer by still-hunting or posting up under a tree. Have you tried these methods?

I'm sure you would not criticize Native Americans for taking deer with bows and arrows (which have a range comparable to a foster-type slug from a shotgun). They didn't go after them with knives very often.

[WolverineDG]

34. Other than the fact that I think that deer are too big game for a 6 year old

I see nothing wrong with that. It's deer season, she was with a parent. All I can say is my brothers never went deer hunting with my dad until they were a lot older than 6 & could hold their own rifle.

dg

[Renew Deal]

39. Can they keep it safe for the kid?

I imagine that a six year old doesn't have the strength to deal with the kickback.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

43. Grace and guns. Ain't that sweet?

Nothing like killing an innocent creature from a safe distance to teach about life and respect.


*big sigh*

[uppityperson]

46. Would you have been ok if she'd snuck up on it and slit its throat with a knife?

"innocent creature"? Innocent of what?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

49. Innocent of causing harm to the child.

WTF? It's not that hard to grasp.

[uppityperson]

50. Ah. Not sure what you meant, thanks for clarifying that bit. Now about the distance complaint

"killing from a distance". Would you be ok if she were up close?

And about that "innocent" bit. Is it ok if she eats fried chicken or other commercially raised meat? That were "innocent of causing harm to her"?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

57. Shooting a living creature from a position of safety is liable to cause indifference

and validate violent behavior in one so young. Nowhere in this article is there a claim that the deer is being shot to provide food.

[uppityperson]

61. What about eating commercially produced meat? Does that cause indifference?

I think you are saying that if she'd snuck up and slit its throat, that would not "cause indifference".

You missed answering this question, I am sure you simply missed it:
Is it ok if she eats fried chicken or other commercially raised meat? That were "innocent of causing harm to her"?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

64. I think that the child is too young to be killing animals. Period.

That she has no risk to herself in the process is a factor that I find to be disturbing, as the killing can be done with relative ease.

Jesus, you are being really obtuse.

[uppityperson]

67. Not being obtuse, just asking you to defend your assertions

asking for clarification, looking at it logically.

'Nothing like killing an innocent creature from a safe distance to teach about life and respect...Innocent of causing harm to the child...Shooting a living creature from a position of safety is liable to cause indifference...I think that the child is too young to be killing animals."

Along with a bunch of insults.

I guess it is ok with you if she eats fried chicken or other commercially raised meat that she didn't kill and that were "innocent of causing harm to her"

[HCE SuiGeneris]

70. You're not addressing my point. You are ranting about food.

Again, nowhere is it stated that they are eating this deer. The article is about 'hunting' and killing a deer by a six year old.

[uppityperson]

72. and another insult! woohoo! What Point am I not addressing?

"Nothing like killing an innocent creature from a safe distance to teach about life and respect...Innocent of causing harm to the child...Shooting a living creature from a position of safety is liable to cause indifference...I think that the child is too young to be killing animals."

What of these "points" you made "the point"? Which have I not addressed?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

76. You initiated an aggressive posture in your first retort.

I have elaborated and defended my original statement with equal aggression. I stand by my statement. However you may want to pursue it though, I am not debating the "food that is processed commercially vs. food that is gained by means of a gun".

[uppityperson]

79. What of those "points" you made "the point"? Which have I not addressed?

simply question.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

93. This is my point...

Shooting a living creature from a position of safety is liable to cause indifference

and validate violent behavior in one so young.

You have said nothing of substance to counter THAT point. This was what was alluded to in my initial post.

[uppityperson]

103. I disagree. Killing a creature, whether from a "position of safety" or while being attacked

is not "liable to cause indifference and validate violent behavior in one so young". It depends on HOW it is handled. I'd be more concerned with little Billy or Susie down the street pulling legs off spiders and throwing kittens in the river than with a child being involved with hunting and learning how to safely handle a gun.

Eating chicken nuggets is liable to cause indifference because they taste so good and are so far removed from the animal that the children have no thought about the cruelty that bird went through to give them their food. Eating plastic wrapped hamburger causes indifference because, after all, there is NO animal involved, just burgers and who cares where it came from, what inhumane conditions that cow had during its life.

THAT is what causes indifference.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

118. How do YOU know how it was handled?

"pulling legs off of spiders and throwing kittens in the river..."

Wow. We're done here. I'm going for a walk and maybe catch a glimpse of some wildlife. Perhaps I may even take a picture.

[uppityperson]

125. You seriously wouldn't be concerned about kids doing that? I guess we are done

here. Wild.

[superduperfarleft]

127. .

dupe

[superduperfarleft]

128. So for everyone who is outraged by this....

What's for dinner tonight?

[uppityperson]

133. Meat from the non-innocent factory farmed animals.

It's so much more moral!

I think it's the pitbull/shopingcart thread for today

[HCE SuiGeneris]

149. There's no mention of meat in the article. There is a reference to a six-point buck, though.

It should be a banner trophy to hang over her bed! Hooray for her excellent accomplishment.

[uppityperson]

152. huh, thought you were " done here".

[HCE SuiGeneris]

157. !

[PavePusher]

258. You were the one that started casting out unfounded assumptions and derogatory insinuations.

And never defended them with evidence.

[backwoodsbob]

146. and you are wrong

I began hunting VERY young.I haven't been in a violent situation in I couldn't tell you how long...I think my one and only fight in highschool and I'm 46.

Hunting doesn't cause children to become violent

[SteveM]

319. Defend your "point." You have merely speculated without substance...

"Shooting a living creature from a position of safety is liable to cause indifference

and validate violent behavior in one so young."

This is speculation at best. What do you mean by "position of safety?" Safe from what or who? How is this relevant? How can it "...cause indifference?" Indifference to what? I should hope the quarry was "indifferent" to the predator; otherwise, the hunter would be unsuccessful. "Validate violent behavior in one so young?" How does this happen? Violence is part of life, it is neither bad nor good in itself. Does your "validation" mean choosing violence to solve all problems "indifferently?" There are some 13 million hunters in this country, and there is little evidence to suggest these people choose violence to solve all problems.

You have merely asserted some speculative thoughts. It is YOUR duty to defend them with some evidence, facts, data, etc. You have most certainly not done that.

[PavePusher]

256. What's the "right" age? And what's your evidence? n/t

[MadHound]

51. So you would rather that she learned how to BBQ a cow instead?

Sorry, but if you eat meat and are advocating against hunting, you're being hypocritical.

[uppityperson]

53. Cows aren't "innocent". Ever read The Far Side?

[SteveM]

315. ALL creatures are "innocent," and ALL of us kill them, including you...

1) Killing by hunting;

2) Killing by agent (meat under cellophane);

3) Killing by abstraction (mass agriculture which destroys whole ecosystems).

So, how do you kill your "innocent" animals?

[Brickbat]

89. Deer are "innocent"?

*snort*

[HCE SuiGeneris]

94. !

*snort*

[PavePusher]

255. I do hope you're a vegan....

so as not to be a flaming hypocrite.

[snooper2]

304. When I was six, maybe seven, I was fishing, slicing off the head with knife

removing scales and throwing the guts back in the creek...

It was a blast..Then we would take fish who was previously swimming around minding it's own business and throw it on small grill for some yummy...




I think it really traumatized me because all I want to do now is eat little bites of flesh off of vegans :rofl:

[JonLP24]

398. I could never do that fishing

slicing off the head and removing the guts. I couldn't even stick the hook into a living worm.

It was fun, throwing the line into the lake and trying to pull up a fish out of the water. I just couldn't do the cutting part.

[Jamastiene]

426. I hate scaling them.

I have yet to find a way that does not involve a huge mess and fish scales absolutely everywhere. I could do the worm pretty easily and minnows, but never could use frogs or lizards. I still cannot do the frogs or lizards. I've had both of those as pets. So, I'll probably never use those. :shrug:

[JanMichael]

48. I don't know how I feel about this: we are vegetarian tree huggers, yet

at the same time, think hunting is fine. I have more respect for people who participate in killing their meat than I do the people who grill steaks from the grocery store....and don't give a flying rats ass that the animal they are eating has lived, and died in inhumane, often times nasty conditions, and are filled with hormones and chemicals.

(Yes, I am talking about some DUers, and no, I don't care)

Is 6 too young? Not sure on that either...I think she should probably wait til she is old enough to handle the gun alone...maybe fishing would be better for her at this point---

[Codeine]

221. I've been a vegan for over twenty years

even though I grew up hunting. Hunters have a visceral (literally!) understanding of the nature of meat and the process of its acquisition.

Too many folks here are up in arms while being meat eaters themselves; assuming that they bear less moral responsibility for the death of the animals they cram down their swollen gullets because they by it all nicely wrapped in plastic with a barcode attached.

At least that deer didn't spend its life in a factory farm.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

54. Please, can anyone tell me why ...

people who hunt, especially deer, have the animal plastered all over their homes?

I don't mean the carcasses but art, pictures, blankets, dishes, cups, mugs, etc., all
with the animal depicted upon them. Sometimes the pictures are beautiful, showing the
animals grace.

Heads, skins, skulls and the rest, I just give up to the hormones of the hunt.

I eat meat. I love steak. I really, really love pork. Bacon, what more needs to be said? Just Bacon!

I hunt at my nearest grocer, meat neatly wrapped, placed on trays, ready for my enjoyment.
Sometimes I wear camo, but was ignored too many times when I needed a question answered.
Loud colors at Kroger seem to work best.

I do not, ok, let me repeat that, I DO NOT, keep pictures, mugs, blankets, etc., of pigs, cows, (or steers,
no gender bias), little lambs, cod, shrimp, chickens or anything of the like displayed in my home.

In my very humble opinion, if you revere the animal that much, YOU DON'T KILL IT!!!!!!!!

Please explain, thank you.

[uppityperson]

56. Do you revere plastic wrapped meat?

Having a hand in the origin of your food can give you a different outlook on things. I consider it very unethical to eat those plastic wrapped trays of animals. They were raised in horrible conditions, fed crap, treated inhumanely all their lives. And you get to simply eat them. Not considering anything beyond is it affordable and how does it taste.

Seems disrespectful to me to treat animals that way, to be so far out of the cycle to accept that as ok.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

63. I added some

after I posted, but before I saw your question.

Yes it is despicable, the treatment of animals for our consumption.
I used Kroger as an example, a writers freedom, to be understood.
And a little comedy, I apologize to you.

The meat I eat is raised in the best of conditions.

May be hard to understand, but they are loved.

[uppityperson]

68. Glad you have a hand in raising your own food, would be good if everyone had that chance

to be involved. Being raised a town person, I visited family/friends on farms but was never up close, down and dirty with food procurement. As a young adult I was, as an older adult I am also. I think it much more moral to be involved at some point, if you are going to eat anything, to see and respect what and where and who and how food gets to you.
I know what you mean.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

81. I have one more thing to add ...

I asked a question of why hunters revered the animal they killed.

I responded to you, defending my choice of eating meat.

I responded as I would have if my wife called me out.

Love her, been married 38 years.

But that's not the question I asked. Respond to the question.

Why do hunters display pictures or whatever of the animal they kill?

If you read my post you would know I do not revere the
plastic wrapped meat in the stores, I have none of the items of reverence I mentioned.

[uppityperson]

96. I don't know why. I don't, but haven't hunted for yrs. Don't have picts of fish around

Maybe people surround themselves with what makes them comfortable? Some may be so "in" to hunting for their food that they like to look at the pictures and dream of hunting? Some probably "revere" the animals they hunt and kill and eat and thus have pictures of them?

I don't like "sport" hunting for antlers, skulls, skins. I think that is very disrespectful of the animal and unethical.

Why do some people have ducky wall paper in their kitchen, aka Kountry Kute? Those ones, imo, have a romanticized vision of country living.

I don't have a good answer, sorry for jumping on the meat part, I read your post and think we're on the same page.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

105. I really don't think so.

Think we are chapters and paragraphs apart

[uppityperson]

110. whatever

[SteveM]

324. Well, I have a few "horns" laying around, so I'll try...

Raising animals -- even those you love -- does not mean you don't eventually kill them; life on a farm will quickly show that both go on. Many ancient peoples, Inuits, Native Americans, etc., love and respect animals BECAUSE they provide food, and because they are part of the living land. Persons who indifferently buy burger at the grocery store don't love these animals, and vegetarians who eat soy beans are usually not even aware of the vast pin-wheel farms which destroy entire ecosystems. Yet the latter two groups of people have surely killed, by agent and by abstraction.

It is difficult for a hunter to explain to a non-hunter why he/she kills and eats animals which they love. Humans have been speculating on this quandry since cave drawings. But we are all predators, whether we practice predation or not. When I see deer or other game animals which are good to eat, I feel impulses inside of me which direct me to: stop, be silent, and move downwind, even if I am carrying nothing more than a pocket radio. These are bred into us; I choose to practice the art which flows from these hard-wired impulses and instincts, and feel no shame in it. I DO regret the necessity of killing -- but at least I own up to the practice we ALL engage in.

Hunting is a priceless way of not only getting in touch with the "outside" nature, but to understand the "inside" nature of ourselves. I would hate for the practice of hunting to end allowing a new regime of indifference to animal death to take its place.
Trophies of animals are a way to remember the animal and what it took to kill it, field dress it, skin, quarter and slaughter it. Can you think of any tribes and old cultures which do NOT have trophies and totems dedicated to the animals which they kill? Killing goes on every day; most hunters prefer this to a food bureaucracy which does it for all of us.

To be clear, I also celebrate the taking of a deer. Not out of glee, sadism, competition, etc. But from recognizing that this is how it was done in the beginning when successful hunting truly meant the difference between life or death.

[uppityperson]

412. Thank you for your contributions on this thread.

appreciate the thought and time you took to answer.

[backwoodsbob]

148. wait a minute

you said *May be hard to understand, but they are loved. *...but you don't understand a deer hunter having a mug with a deer on it?

*boggle*

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

59. I should add.

I was raised on a farm in Brighton, Michigan.

We rented the land to cattle ranchers.

I have seen the blood, the offal, heard the cries of the cow at death.

I have eaten that animal. I enjoyed it.

[kick-ass-bob]

95. Native Americans revered everything they killed.

I don't see why this is any different.

A friend from college has all sorts of cow stuff in her house, yet she lives on a farm and has killed cattle for their consumption.

They're just different than you, that's all.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

114. As you see we did the same

I will guess you're correct, just seemed odd to me.

We make (made) a living off the product, should be revered.

We did, we loved every one of the cattle, pigs, chicks, sheep.

Hunters go out, blindly, some even bait the area for weeks. no love,
yet post the pictures everywhere in their home. Why??????

Guess I'm different.

[PavePusher]

261. You are making assumptions about others without evidence.

Just because they don't live in close proximity to what they eat and hunt, doesn't mean there's no emotion involved.

[HuckleB]

111. Some of my uncles had some heads on display, but none had any of the other stuff you write about.

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

150. Our hunter-gatherer ancestors gave respect to the animals they hunted. It's no different today.

Most hunters care deeply about the natural world.

[proteus_lives]

159. Theodore Roosevelt is the perfect example.

Devoted hunter since boyhood.

And he created the national parks system and saved many of our natural treasures.

[Pavulon]

164. I dont have trophies..

but do enjoy meat not filled with chemicals. To each his own, this story is not a big deal

[blueamy66]

236. Another great post.

I love DU

[PavePusher]

260. I've known lots of people that eat plenty of beef they never harvested themselves...

that have all sorts of cow-themed stuff in their homes. Pigs too.

[IcyPeas]

55. how does a story like this get on national news....

saw it last night on anderson cooper.

[SteveM]

332. To stoke up fears, angers, hatreds. The usual...

for years, I have read publications and viewed I-net sites which show kids -- some quite young -- posing with their kills. The kids' grins are big as a Buick.

Much of the media is indifferent to nature, or afflicted with Bambi Syndrome. But they love pumped-up controversy.

[Upton]

62. I'm not a hunter myself..

I've tried it on several occasions, just wasn't for me. I don't begrudge those that do enjoy hunting though, and I think a child is never too young to learn about guns and gun safety. So, all in all, I think this is a good thing..

[callous taoboy]

65. I see at least 3 deer kill photos a week in my local paper, all killed by tots.

I really don't have a problem with it. The deer population is way too high, and they are a danger for motorists.

[HuckleB]

115. I don't have a problem with kids hunting either.

On the other hand, one could say that the motorist population is a danger to deer.

[earth mom]

69. Disgusting!

:puke:

[Odin2005]

156. Venison is much better for you than the crap in the grocery store.

Antibiotic-fed beef, now THAT'S disgusting.

[Codeine]

222. Do you react that way when a six-year-old eats a piece of chicken?

:shrug: At least this family is honest enough to teach their kids that meat is a dead animal.

[PavePusher]

262. I do hope you are a vegan... n/t

[HuckleB]

413. Why would that justify such a ridiculous response? -eom-

[haifa lootin]

350. How or why, exactly, is it 'disgusting'?

Could you elaborate?
\

[AmandaMae]

71. disturbing.

[kick-ass-bob]

75. Actually, disturbing is

when a married, father of 2 swerves off the road near my home into a 2' diameter tree because of a deer, impaling and killing him instantly because there are no predators to keep the deer population down.

Do I hunt?
No.

Am I glad that others do?
Yes.

Just because you don't want to hunt doesn't mean others shouldn't because of some sort of false barbarianism that you feel.

[uppityperson]

78. but...

that deer was innocent, didn't mean to kill him, was living in its natural environment and people should just have to deal with it etc etc etc
:sarcasm: and I am sorry for him and the family and friends.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

99. Exactly where do you stand?

Are you for meat eaters?

Are you Deer lover?

Are you an tree-hugger?

A Vegan?

Sorry but reading your posts you just seem like an angry person, I may be wrong.

But co'mon prove me wrong.

[uppityperson]

108. I am a complex uppity person.

I have hunted, have fished, have raised my own food. I have been a moral/ethical vegetarian, have been an omnivore. I tire of the simplistic romanticized versions of the world and see no need to categorize myself into a "type".

We live in the world, we are part of it. Being involved with food procurement at some point in your life is a good thing, teaches how we are connected.

If you perceive me as "angry person", ah well. You don't know me and I have no need to prove anything to you.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

123. Point Taken Thanks!!

You DO seem to be a very interesting person.

Enjoyed the banter, thanks again!

Have a great Thanksgiving. Heartfelt...

Sorry if I offended you in any way.

[-..__...]

144. "Now I ax'ya...

would you give a fuck what kind of pants the son of bitch that shot you was wearing"?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2I097JABE

:smoke:

[Brickbat]

91. Why?

[PavePusher]

263. How so? n/t

[madrchsod]

73. my wife used to go hunting and fishing with her dad

but he never let her shoot deer or fox. the only thing she did`t do was run the trapping line with him.

he would also give away a deer every few years to a family in need.

[durkermaker]

77. 'Guns don't kill, little girls do' nt

[Brickbat]

82. Good for her! I'm jealous! Congrats, Grace!

And the whole intro of "loves princess, BUT enjoys hunting" is bullshit.

[Lucian]

85. What an idiotic father.

[BoneDaddy]

239. Why?

I think you prejudge way too quickly.

[haifa lootin]

352. My father taught me to hunt when I was 7 and I went out hunting by myself at 8.

My father was not an idiot and neither am I so please trim a few bristles off that broad brush.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

87. and they worry about violent video games.

Come on princess, get up to your elbows in the warm blood of something you just fucking murdered.

[Brickbat]

92. Murdered.

ROFLMAO.

[HuckleB]

130. Goodness.

In one scenario, we have kids pretending to kill all sorts of beings, for hours on end, while sitting indoors, communicating with almost no one for any length of time, and discovering virtually nothing. (Don't get me wrong. Video games are fine.) In the other scenario, we have kids learning about nature, about the cycle of life, about where our food comes from, and communicating directly with her family members over a long period of time.

Seriously, think.

[proteus_lives]

160. Murdered?

Love that hyperbole, don't ya?

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

165. nom nom nom

they are a pain in the ass to clean.

[slackmaster]

184. In every state in this country, murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being

With malice aforethought.

[Codeine]

223. None of the animals you eat are murdered, right?

Died of natural causes and all?

Or maybe you don't eat meat, in which case you should be glad that at least this little kid isn't being lied to about the nature of flesh consumption.

[PavePusher]

264. Bigoted hyperbole, much? I do hope you are a vegan... n/t

[snooper2]

306. Actually, I think if she pulled the warm heart out and took a good healthy bite

while it was still warm she will gain the strength of that buck...


At least that's how it worked a couple hundred years ago :)

[SteveM]

340. Gosh, so you want to take on a 6-yr-old? Talk about bullying...

"Murder" is a human concept applied to humans; I don't presume the hubris to make laws for animals.

Why don't you get up to your elbows in the warm blood of what you eat? You are part of killing, and you know it. You just don't like how others do it, and wish to divert your moral ambivalence at contrived enemies; in this case, a child.

[marions ghost]

97. Disgusting

--an example of everything that is wrong with this country.

[Brickbat]

116. Yes, quality time with one's daughter and teaching her life skills is a terrible thing.

[Rebubula]

119. LOLZ

Yeah....because we are the only country in the world that has kids out hunting for food.


And to rebut...no...no it is NOT an example of everything that is wrong. You have a loving family, a good father that is teaching his children gun safety (considering the many Revolution threads that occur here - teaching kids how to handle firearms responsibility would resonate more) and they are getting food that is not farm raised and abused its whole life.

Sometimes I am amazed at the level of naivete and knee jerk around here - not just by you, MG - but to all of the posters that were disturbed or disgusted. The world is not just your own little suburban opinion.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

126. Your points are valid,. but neither are all the people that shoot animals, good teachers. n/t

[Rebubula]

132. Do you eat meat?

If so....how is this different than having someone you do not know run a scared cow into a shoot and shoot a bolt through its head or cut its throat?

Considering the way the country is going - it IS A VERY SMART Idea to be able to know how to shoot and field dress your own food. May come a time where people cannot buy food at the market...

Again...the world is not limited to your suburban opinion.

[Brickbat]

140. Why not?

[HuckleB]

124. Do you write for The Onion?

[proteus_lives]

161. And another hyperbole award goes to,,,

:eyes:

[Codeine]

224. A factory farm is a much better example of that.

Industrial-strength cruelty vs. a quick death after a life in the animal's natural environment -- I know which I'd choose.

[PavePusher]

265. Please, explain this? n/t

[kestrel91316]

98. My dad and uncles and grandfather taught me how to fish when I was 4.

Are you all gonna start hatin' on ME now??? Deer hunting has a centuries-long tradition in this country as a means of putting high-quality protein on one's table. My dad's family HAD to have their deer or they would have starved, and not just during the Depression.

[The Straight Story]

104. I don't have a problem with it

Never hunted, but most in my family have since a young age. I do love to fish though :)

[HuckleB]

112. I know three-year-olds who've caught fish.

Uh oh.

We're all doomed!

:rofl:

[SteveM]

341. What? Killing Sea Kittens? Disgusting -- unless served with grits! nt

[orleans]

102. ah.... quality time

"now what can we kill daddy?"

[backwoodsbob]

151. hopefully she bags a ten next year

myself..I keep trying for the VERY limited elk hunt in Tenn. but no luck so far.I could stuff BOTH my chest frezzers with one of those bad boys.

BTW...do you eat meat?

[orleans]

213. absolutely. i like to send my four year old out to the woods to

shoot and kill us some dinner.

(do you think four might be a little too young? we've only had one trip to the e.r. so i think, over all, my kid's doing a great job!)

[SteveM]

342. You might wish to accompany your four-year-old, more responsible. nt

[orleans]

422. nahhh..... n/t

[grahamhgreen]

107. I think this has been happening since the dawn of man....

[Fleshdancer]

113. 6 is a bit young

I come from a family of hunters and I'm not opposed to the idea of hunting even though it's not something I do. As a parent though, I personally think 6 is too young.

[Brickbat]

117. If the kid's ready, she's ready.

Some six-year-olds are ready to hunt, and some 15-year-olds aren't. IMO.

[HuckleB]

121. Why is it too young?

I'm not a hunter, though most of my uncles were, and I have nothing against hunting.

Still, my four-year-old has gone on backpacking trips with us since he was 8 months old. Last summer, he regularly hiked six to eight miles a day, with elevation gains up to 3,000 feet per hike. He wasn't fast, but he did it, and he had a good time. We don't own any guns, and we don't plan to buy any, so he won't get to the hunting part of the hike, but why couldn't a six-year-old be ready?

[Fleshdancer]

453. well, the most obvious thing is the need for a license in many states

I'm not sure why hiking would ever be compared to hunting so I really don't have much to say in regards to your analogy. People walk/hike and camp with babies/toddlers/kids all the time...not so much with hunting.

Here in TX, anyone who hunts needs a license. I believe the youngest is 12. In other states, it's 10. Naturally all gun safety education should start long before a child is allowed to hunt for the first time. I have no way of knowing whether the 6 yr old in this article was actually taught anything regarding gun safety. Fortunately Dad (I assume) was sober and carefully helping with the gun this time.

After calling and asking, all the hunters in my family personally believe 6 is just too young. A lot of it has to do with the shorter attention spans and overall noise levels of kids that young.

[ileus]

120. My 6yo son killed his first deer this year also....congrats to the little lady.

My 8yo daughter won't hunt, she likes her animals alive. However.com she sure does love to put lead down range with my AR's and her 22. I hadn't hunted since 2004 when my son was born, until this year. He's begged me to take him hunting since last fall but I felt 5 was too young. He took a little button buck during Va's youth hunt back in September.

I'm going to buy a 6.8 spc upper for one of the AR's so it'll fit my son (or daughter) better, I can get down to a 10.5" LOP with an AR, most youth rifles 12" LOP is about as short as you can get.

[HuckleB]

122. What? No picture in the paper?

Your local press is dozing.

;)

Congratulations!

[ileus]

135. no but the kids have been in the paper

for everything else...I know since we moved here they've been in the paper either alone or a group pic of some sort at least 7 times each. They're pretty hard up for news in our area.

[superduperfarleft]

134. So for everyone who is outraged by this....

What's for dinner tonight?

[Rebubula]

136. I am not outraged...

...BUT, I am having salad and baked potato tonight.

Tomorrow, however is Rib Eye (cooked Medium Rare) with onions and mushrooms.

[JoePhilly]

138. No outrage for me ... but ...

Here's the thing ... so a 6 year old girl, who can't actually hold the weapon (Dad held it, and probably controlled it all but the trigger) shoots, and kills a deer.

On one hand no big deal. We kill animals, and eat them, all the time, as you note.

But I have to wonder what the 6 year old girl learns from this. Did she learn that a gun is dangerous, or that when we kill animals, its great fun.

Remember, she is 6 years old. Her ability to empathize with other HUMANS is not yet fully formed.

Around 10-12, a kid can potential handle this ... a 6 year old has no real understanding of what it means to be DEAD.

Its great that a Dad is spending time with his daughter. I have 2 (11 and 9) ... in addition to the time we spend reading, and doing homework, we also go bowling, and play sports like basketball and softball.

And at times we go fishing in a local pond. And when we do, we discuss the difference between fishing, and buying fish for dinner at the store. When we catch a fish in the pond, we throw him back.

Perhaps that dad is also explaining the "food" aspect of killing the deer with his daughter, maybe they will freeze the meet, but honestly, at 6, I doubt she can grasp it. Its just too soon I think.

[superduperfarleft]

139. Fair enough.

Arguing the point that a 6-year-old might be to young to handle a firearm safely is perfectly valid. (Although every kid is different.)

I was more directing it towards the people screaming about "murderers" and crap like that while getting ready to cook something equally dead for dinner.

[WolverineDG]

175. Didn't grow up in a hunter's household, did you?

because we were taught respect for guns & gun safety from the get-go. We even had to recite my dad's gun mantra--Guns are not toys. Treat every gun as a loaded gun. Do not play with guns. If you see someone playing with a gun, tell your parents or an adult. If your friend wants to play with a gun, go home & tell your parents.


and so on....

dg

[JoePhilly]

201. My father loved to hunt, and took me along many times ... thanks for asking ...

I lived in PA as a kid, and my father liked to go deer hunting. He took me along a number of times, when I was around 12 or so. And we discussed gun safety each time. Laws for hunting, so on.

I never got to shoot a deer, came close, but my father did get a few, on a number of occasions.

His last deer kill was a 12 point buck. The reason it was his last, was that after killing it, he found himself on the ground, cleaning it ... taking the meat of the most beautiful deer he had every seen. And he realized how selfish it was.

This buck was a majestic creature. A work of art.

And now it was dead. And he was going to be the last person to see this impressive creature alive.

After this, my father continued to hunt deer, but not with a high powered rifle, but with a high powered camera. As a result, I do not have the heads of dead bucks on the walls of my home ... what I do have are high quality photos of majestic deer ...

My larger point stand ..... a 6 year old is really not ready to have these discussions, nor the ability to use such weapons.

Sure, you can teach kids about the need to respect the power of such weapons ... but you are dealing with CHILDREN. And honestly, kids would prefer photos of LIVE animals over dead animals.

[WolverineDG]

211. My dad hunted because if he & his brothers didn't get anything

they didn't have anything to eat that night. He never took anything he wasn't going to eat & had a very low opinion of "sports" hunters. I still think heads of dead bucks on walls is gauche because of my dad.

But thanks for calling him "selfish" for hunting & thinking that all children are complete morons, incapable of being taught how to act around guns.

dg

[JoePhilly]

235. Where did I call your father "selfish"??

You put it in quotes, so I guess I must have said it. Right? Um ... wrong.

First you tell me I "must not have grown up in a gun house-hold" which was wrong ... and then you claim I called your faher "selfish", also wrong. I simply described how my father felt and did not mention yours in anyway.

And you claim that I think "all children are complete morons" ... your exact words, which again, is no where near what I said.

Which make you 0 for 3.

I probably should have mentioned that when my father would hunt, he did so during PA's hunting season, which was part of the state's effort to maintain a manageable deer population. It was usually my father, my mother's brother, and at times one of their friends, or me. If they did take a deer, they would divide the meat between their families, and some close friends. We'd usually eat it at the holidays.

Finally point. I have a PhD in psychology, and as a result, I actually have a very good understanding of child development. I also have a very strong understanding of how children think, how their emotions develop, and the pace at which they can fully understand complex concepts, like death.

At the age of 6, a child really does not understand that death is "forever". They tend to think it is a reversible or temporary event. At the age of 6, children are generally unable to accurately attribute causes for death, and they are likely to connect unrelated events to death.

Now, and this part is very important ... aspects of childhood development such as those I mention briefly above do not make the child "a complete moron" ... they are simply kids, and their ability to understand the world, and events like death, is not full developed.

This may be why some states, like PA, have an age component to their hunting license. In PA, I think you need to be 12.

[darkstar3]

384. Well said.

Thank you for injecting some reason, nuance, and best of all real knowledge of child development.

[JoePhilly]

408. Thanks. I was attracted to this OP because of the nuances.

Arguing extremes is easy.

Discussing / Debating nuance is harder ... and for me, more interesting.

[Beaverhausen]

142. at this time of year deer in the wild need to be fattening up to survive the coming winter

not hiding from idiot hunters out to prove how brave they are shooting defenseless animals.

[KansasVoter]

171. I planned on killing a deer and bragging about how hard it was!

[Katya Mullethov]

280. It is quite a bit more difficult

Than getting a concealed weapons permit , or for that matter , merely attending and auditing a CCW class . So , I will understand if this never materialized .

[one-eyed fat man]

295. Is this right after your concealed carry class?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=333245&mesg_id=333245

[Hoopla Phil]

368. Is this like you "planned" on taking a CCL class? Ha Ha Ha

[bvar22]

143. These strories are usually a common joke..

I live in a very rural area of the South, surrounded on 3 sides by extensive National Forest. Guns and Hunting are ubiquitous.
It is a common JOKE to let the youngest family member pose with a kill, and then send the photo to the local papers or tape it up in the local gas station....
Thus, we have frequent stories like:
"4 year old girl kills 600 lb. Black Bear with one arrow" accompanied by a Polaroid of the 4yr old girl posing with the Bear and a Bow.
These photos are all over the place, but they are done with a grin and a wink.
Everybody knows they are not true... just a way of getting your kid's photo in the local paper.

BTW:
My front yard a couple of days ago:

We normally chase them off with air horns or gun shots in the air because they destroy the roses and eat the apples and peaches off the trees, but those are gone for now.

I probably won't take a deer this year, not because I oppose hunting, but because our neighbors will give us more meat than we can use in return for all the free eggs we gave them over the year.
Now, if I get a shot at a nice Turkey...

[MadHound]

155. Ah, you should come up to my place,

I'm visited by a flock of turkey almost every day, early in the morning. If you wanted a nice shot at a turkey, all would have to do is walk out on my back deck.

[hedgehog]

169. My favorite lie in a typical gardening catalog - "Deer proof plant"

One year I watched deer walk through my pasture to go over and nibble my rhododendron to the ground. So much for "deer proof" planting!

[uppityperson]

189. a few yrs back they ate my euphorbias and rhodies. It was amazing, very dry out

Plants were all wilting to the point of needed to be watered or die. So I'd water. And next morning they'd be eaten. Even the euphorbs. I felt bad for the giant garden rats (deer) that summer.

[Odin2005]

147. Good for her! The bashing of hunters in this thread is disgusting.

[KansasVoter]

170. I think it is a weakness and weird that people are proud of it. Pictures with dead deers???

[Brickbat]

176. I can't wait to take my first picture with a deer.

I am, quite honestly, looking forward to it.

[SteveM]

347. Good luck! I got one of me with a nice 10-point.

[HuckleB]

180. Keep thinking.

Hmm. I'm thinking it's odd that some would think it's a weakness.

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

188. What are these "dead deers" of which you write?

I know all about people hunting deer, and many of them take pictures with the dead deer after the hunt. However, I am not familiar with "dead deers."

Please enlighten me.

(Sorry, I'm in a mood. I couldn't resist.)

[haifa lootin]

363. The plural of deer is deer.

Same with most ungulates.

[flvegan]

162. Every princess should carry a .308.

A pink one.

This thread is fun.

[proteus_lives]

166. I fail to see how this is news.

It's hunting season.

Children are introduced to the activity.

But the "outrage" is amusing.

[The Straight Story]

177. No Outrage from me

I have taken my daughter fishing many times, and if I were a hunter I would take her on hunts as well.

Gathering food is what it is - mother cheetahs, eagles, etc, teach their young to hunt for food - and it ain't pretty.

[Zanzobar]

186. It ain't pretty, true

But it ain't ugly either.

[proteus_lives]

191. "it ain't pretty."

Life often isn't.

And spending time with your daughter is never a bad thing!

[Taverner]

173. Um, so?

In another part of the world, someone poured a glass of milk, and toasted some bread

[The Straight Story]

178. Did they steal the milk from a goat or a cow?

:evilgrin:

[Taverner]

179. Now that you mention it, I think it was Howler Monkey Milk...

[TheManInTheMac]

182. Why can't she just buy her meat in the supermarket

where no animals have to die?

[Zanzobar]

185. Pardon me...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/couple-accused-of-murder-in-supermarket-death/2008/06/13/1213321608387.html

Some animals do die in supermarkets.

[uppityperson]

190. I think that post was being ironic

or sarcastic, I confuse them sometimes.

[Zanzobar]

192. I can prove things

If you jump out of a plane, you will die
If you breathe, you will most certainly die.
This is the worst: If you have ever lived, you will ever die.

Are you spooked yet?

[HEyHEY]

193. Sorry, I don't agree six-year-olds should be handed firearms

[HuckleB]

195. Why?

[HEyHEY]

196. That's alot of power for a child so young

They may not fully understand just how much. I think around nine or ten is fine. Six is too young.

[HuckleB]

198. Historically speaking, I suspect kids that young often helped trap and kill small game.

I don't see how this is much different. Unless their parents foolishly hide it from them, six-year-olds know what meat is, and where it comes from. Six-year-olds who grew up on farms knew it long before they were six. I don't think there is any inherent lack of understanding here.

[HEyHEY]

204. A snare set for a rabbit can't kill a man if improperly used

Accidents happen, to young kids especially.

[HuckleB]

205. Who's talking about just snares?

She wasn't allowed to walk around with the gun by herself, btw.

[HEyHEY]

209. So? Some people don't even let kids that age have scissors, now they can have a gun?

I think sometimes in the whole fear of "them taking out guns" movement, many people lose common sense.

[HuckleB]

215. So the existence of helicopter parents means other parents can't teach their children about guns?

:shrug:

[HEyHEY]

230. See, this is what I mean

I suggest that a weapon capable of killing an animal maybe should not be in the hands of someone who is just a few years off of potty training and suddenly I'm saying you can't teach your kids about guns?

It's called common sense. When I was six I'll tell you what I learned about guns.

"Dad has one locked in his closet, and if you go anywhere near it, you're in big trouble."

When I was a little older, I got to shoot it and learn how you use it responsibly. It's a firearm, not a slinky.

[HuckleB]

417. That's quite the spin.

You are creating a poster to argue against, rather than discussing the actual content of my post.

Boring.

:boring:

[HEyHEY]

425. Did you seriously say that?

The content of your post accusing me of saying you can't teach your kids about guns (Which I didn't do) needs to be addressed? Project much?

[slackmaster]

229. My dad hunted alone for food when he was seven years old, to feed his mom and six siblings

His mom would hand him a .22 rifle and three rounds of ammunition, and tell him "Don't come home 'til you've got two jackrabbits."

He usually came home with three jackrabbits.

[HEyHEY]

231. Well, kids also used to work in factories

[slackmaster]

232. The shooting skills my dad learned as a child did no harm and served him well for much of his life

After World War II, when he served in the US Navy as a Radioman, he stayed in the service until 1956 working as an instructor. He taught sailors how to use communications equipment, and taught Basic Rifle to thousands.

He passed on his safe gun handling skills to me and to my brother. I personally have taught more than 100 people gun safety and basic shooting.

Well, kids also used to work in factories

My dad grew up in a very poor family, HEyHEY. He was lucky to be a pioneer rather than an indentured servant like those factory worker kids.

The girl being discussed here is fortunate to have a father who cares enough about her to do things with her, and who has enough time.

[HEyHEY]

233. All I'm saying is, why can't she learn those skills a couple years later?

[slackmaster]

245. Some children are mature enough by age six, some are not

For another data point: My brother learned the basics when he was six years old and I was 10. I believe I would not have been ready at six.

[PavePusher]

267. Because you don't get to chose for other people.

It's called "freedom" and "liberty" and "involved parenting".

Obviously, this parent and this daughter thought they were ready.

Not your business or your choice. Don't get your angst up over it.

[HEyHEY]

424. I'm not getting my angst up over it... YOU are the one getting pissy

I'm (until now) cordially expressing my opinion on a board serving the purpose of posting OPINION. Fucking hell, you gun people get your backs up like no other. All I did was suggest I think the kid is too young. Would you have the same "You don't get to chose for other people" topped with your freedom and liberty diatribe had the question been about the appropriate age to start dating? Take a fucking pill.

Now I can see why people want gun control, if it's people like you who own them.

[Jamastiene]

427. I don't get it either.

Some people get awfully defensive about their guns. Geez, I'm all for 2nd amendment rights, but I still don't get the defensiveness either. It is awfully extreme.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

437. The Gun is Holy.

:crazy:

[JoePhilly]

206. From what I read in the article ... dad held the wepson, probably aimed it ...

And the 6 year old pulled the trigger when daddy said to do it.

Dad did everything but pull the trigger.

It is his kid and so he can do what he wants ... but I'm not sure he taught this 6 year old anything.

[HuckleB]

216. Since we don't know what they talked about, how she was prepared...

... whether she's gone along before, etc... I wouldn't claim that she didn't learn anything from it.

[JoePhilly]

244. I'll put it another way ...

To a certain degree, it doesn't matter much whether she's been along before, or what he did to "prepare" her.

What know is her age. And there is a great deal known about the kinds of concepts a 6 year old can grasp, the kinds of attributions they make, and their ability to reason. There is only so much you can teach a 6 year old.

For instance, at the age of 6, children do not understand death. You can talk to them about death all you want. You can tell them over and over that a gun could kill some one. You can teach them the rules over and over. But you can change their age or their ability to think and reason. At that age they are simply too young to fully grasp the idea that being dead is forever. They think death is a temporary state. Why? Because in most American homes, that's what we've told them. Jesus came back to live 3 days after dying and grandma who dies last year is now up in heaven watching over you. Death is not final, its temporary.

Beyond that. At the age of 6, a child is still fairly impulsive. You can teach them rules, and they will follow them to a certain degree. But because they are still impulsive, they tend to "forget" the rules, or "misapply" the rules periodically simply because some other "goal state" distracted them or ambiguity within a set of the rules confuses them.

Here is a simple example of that.

1) You teach a child how to "safely" handle a gun. You go over it and over it. They can do it. They have learned the rules, and they now know that they can "safely handle a gun".
2) You teach them that they can never handle the gun when you are not with them and they can never show it to a friend because guns are dangerous and could kill you or a friend.
3) You teach them lying is bad.

For a 6 year old child, at some point, these come in direct conflict. One the one hand, I know I can handle a gun safely. On the other hand I'm not allowed to
show the gun to a friend because its dangerous. But I know I can handle the gun safely. And my friend doesn't believe that I know how and they think I'm lying. And they are going to tell everyone I'm a liar. But I'm not a liar. Lying is bad. So what should I do ... I can prove I'm not lying ... and I do know how to handle a gun safely, and it'll be just this one time.

This is how a 6 year old thinks. Given a set of rules which come in conflict, a 6 year old struggles to put them in the right order.

I suppose we could assume that this girl is "special", that she's not a normal 6 year old, and that she has the maturity and reasoning skills of an 11 or 12 year old ... I pick those ages because that's the age where reasoning of the kind I've described above starts to kick in, and even at those ages, there are still gaps.

[HuckleB]

415. In other words, you'll spend hours of supposition to justify your baseless judgments.

Sorry, but I'm not sure of your qualifications in regard to human development.

This girl doesn't need to be special. She just needs to be human.

[JoePhilly]

435. My qualifications ...

I have a Masters degree and a PhD in Experimental Psychology.

As a result, it did not take me hours to summarize what you describe as "baseless judgments" .... my position is grounded in decades of research. So it only took me about 5-10 minutes to write that.

The research on how children understand death tends to find that a 6 year old will see death as a form of being alive, somewhat like sleep, but not exactly. A form of suspended animation if you will.

I should note that studying how children understand concepts like death is difficult to do. You can just grab a bunch of kids and start showing them pictures of dead people thus scaring the crap out of them. So researchers have to come up with creative ways to study this. One approach is to recognize that death is a complex concept with many aspects ... and so one way to study it is to examine some of its "key components" individually.

Here's an example ... a complete understanding of "death" requires an understanding of "forever". "Forever" is a "key component" of death. And so, we can get an indication of how well a child understands death INDIRECTLY by examining how well the child understands concepts like the passage of time, and "forever".

What researchers find is that children of that age don't have a strong grasp of long time frames, the idea of "forever" escapes them. A 6 year old thinks about today, tonight, tomorrow, the week-end that approaches ... in July they might try to imagine how long it will be until Christmas ... or they might try to figure out how long until their next birthday.

But they don't really understand time frames much longer than that. They don't really think in terms of years, or decades, or centuries. As a result, "forever" is a concept they simply don't understand.

As for how kids develop and apply rules, this too is a well studied aspect of childhood development. If you reread the example I provided earlier, the key factor in that example is that the child has an "immediate" problem. A friend is calling them a liar. That creates a tension "today" (there is that "limited" time perspective again). At a 6 year-old level of reasoning, the "immediate" tension is likely to become their focus, taking priority over a "potential tension" about a "forever" consequence.

Now look what you did ... there goes another 10 minutes of my time.

Good thing for me that childhood development is a topic I really enjoy.

[SteveM]

348. Paralyzed and blind people can legally hunt in most states...

Seeing a man with no use of his legs and arms operate a Remington 742 in 30.06 to bring down a deer didn't leave me with the feeling that he had not learned anything. Even the blind can hunt with a qualifed assistant.

[PavePusher]

266. She wasn't "handed" a firearm.

She was very closely supervised. I suggest you re-read the article.

[blueamy66]

197. SICK

SICK

[HuckleB]

199. .

:rofl:

[Brickbat]

208. Why?

[blueamy66]

242. Why?

I'll tell ya....my Dad served in the Korean War and wouldn't let ONE EFFING GUN in this house after he came home.

I hate guns, I hate kids with guns and so does my Dad.

That's why.

[PavePusher]

269. Please tell us you are a vegan and not a raging hypocrite... n/t

[Brickbat]

281. Alrighty then.

It sounds like your dad had a rough time.

[Rebubula]

303. LOLZ

So...your father hates guns and you do as well??? I would suggest that you find some of your own opinions.

That is not exactly a logical response. My father hated black people and would not let one in the house. So...would it be logical for ME to hate them as well?


Grow up.

[blueamy66]

431. Oh please

Grow up? I have.

I hate guns. My opinion. I hate kids with guns.

Yeah, my Dad had a rough time in the Korean War.

So, it's wrong to believe what my Dad did? Sounds like this 6 year old is believing what her Dad does.

DU amazes me.

[Name removed]

351. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueamy66]

432. not a plant

just hate guns

[haifa lootin]

403. My grandpa served in the Korean war too...as a clerk typist. He hated guns too.

You can hate my kids who have guns but you better not say it to them in my presence.

[blueamy66]

433. My Dad wasn't a clerk typist...he was a grunt

I can say whatever I like to your kids.

Are you saying that you might shoot me for offering my opinion?

[SteveM]

349. PURGE YOURSELF.

[Motown_Johnny]

202. would this be getting the same attention if it were a 6 year old boy?

[HuckleB]

203. It depends on just how slow the news day was for the local paper.

[GSLevel9]

210. I support gun rights, I support responsible hunting. BUT

why the hell would people instill the bloodlust in little kids?

I don't get it...

[The Straight Story]

212. What do you mean by bloodlust? (nt)

[proteus_lives]

214. Hunting = bloodlust?

How so?

[PavePusher]

270. Fail for false equivalency, and unfounded accusation of bad parenting. n/t

[Brickbat]

292. Why don't you tell us the difference between responsible hunting and bloodlust, and then explain how

the six-year-old is displaying the bloodlust you have just described.

[Inchworm]

225. My daughter was shooting off the porch with me at 4

But never bagged a deer until she was 21. She'll never do it again.

Just saying. Different strokes.

[Codeine]

227. LOL! I remember being set upon in a thread many months ago

when I said that in the country growing up we used to shoot off the porch and how it wasn't that strange even today. People acted like I was insane. :rofl: Plinking off the back porch is fun!

[brettdale]

226. Oh a dear

a female dear?

Howe about taking the kids to a wildlife park for endangered animals.

[slackmaster]

228. Does the concept of "buck" have any meaning for you?

a female dear?

Maybe you need to get out in nature a bit more yourself.

;-)

[PavePusher]

272. ROFL!!!! n/t

[BoneDaddy]

238. This is totally about cultural differences

between those who grew up in a gun culture and those who did not.

For those who did not they see this almost akin to child abuse, seeing the teaching of killing an animal at such a young age as a horrible action.

For those who grew up in rural america or around the hunting culture this is a normal everyday event where children are raised to use and respect firearms and who learn how to provide food for their family.

I think it unfair to judge this child and her family and where as I am not a hunter (yet), this is something that has been a part of people's lives since the dawn of humankind. We need not be so quick to broadbrush.

[HEyHEY]

241. Nah, it's a matter of common sense.

I grew up in a house with a gun and my old man did not let me touch that thing until I was about nine. It just makes sense that a child too young to use a sharp knife can be handed a hunting rifle.

[BoneDaddy]

257. So your experience

then trumps a family who decides otherwise. There are many on this board who would have judged your father for putting a gun in your hands at 9 year old

[HEyHEY]

423. So, I can't have an opinion? This IS a discussion board, you know.

[blueamy66]

434. No opinions allowed.

Everyone gets all uptight.

Jeez people.

I can't offer my opinion on guns without someone threatening me...

[PavePusher]

440. Stop playing the victim.

No-one has threatened you. You are now making shit up.

[blueamy66]

454. Read upthread....

and get back to me.

"You can hate my kids who have guns but you better not say it to them in my presence"

sounds like a threat to me....but I'm just sayin'..

[PavePusher]

458. Gosh, verbally assaulting someone elses kids without cause...

might actually merit you a good toungue-lashing in return? Whodathunkit.

And some of you say we gun owners are "living in fear"... sheesh.

[PavePusher]

273. I had my own poket-knife at the age of five. Every kid is different. n/t

[Codeine]

287. I had a sharp knife at six.

I learned to hone it on a whetstone to make it even sharper at the same age. No harm came of it.

[spin]

344. I had a sharp knife folding knife at the same age and managed to slice the hell out of my fingers .

when I mishandled it and it folded across my fingers.

I know, I know, I should have learned a good lesson.

I did, all my folding knives lock open and all have strong locking mechanisms.


Benchmade 710 McHenry & Williams D2 Black ComboEdge

And I personally prefer fixed blades when I can carry one.



Bark River Classic Lite Hunter

edited for typo

[deutsey]

284. That's what I was thinking too

I'm not a hunter, but I grew up in a hunting culture and currently live in one. I don't find the article offensive or upsetting.

There are moron hunters, certainly, just like there are morons in everything, but for the most part, the hunters I've seen are extraordinarily conscientious about weapons and their kids are as knowledgable of gun safety as the adults.

I don't know what age is appropriate for hunting, personally. It seems it is the older kids around here that hunt (9/10 and up maybe). I can, however, imagine some 6 year olds from farm families around here going on a hunt with their dads.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

438. Who's judging the CHILD?

[Dr.Phool]

240. All this shit, and not one good recipe.

[PavePusher]

275. Venison Stew

First, go out in November and shoot a venison....


Sorry, still working on morning coffee...

[CrownPrinceBandar]

276. Ivan Pavlov would love this thread........

*ring-a-ding-ding!*

[LynneSin]

288. When I was 8, I use to help my dad at a local Deer Weigh Station during hunting season

My father worked for the State Game Commission and I use to tag along when he helped out at the deer weigh station.

Normally I would just write down the numbers the inspecters would shout out but after awhile I learned how to tell a deer's age by teeth count and work the scales.

It was bonding time with my father and we did this for a few years until my father's death.

[deutsey]

289. Here's a link to a video news report that has the girl and father in it.

http://www.koco.com/r/25825646/detail.html

[Brickbat]

290. SO cute! She is obviously very proud. Good for her!

[alarimer]

291. Good for her.

Hopefully she will learn ethical hunting and safe operation of firearms as part of this hobby.

I am in favor of hunting as a part of sustainable wildlife management. Most hunters I know are not the bloodthirsty killers they are made out to be. I do hate trophy hunters. If you kill something, you must use is, anything else is unethical.

Not a damn thing wrong with her doing this, as long as there was proper supervision and training.

All you touchy-feely liberals fail to note that deer are overrunning most habitats across this country. Largely that is the fault of humans destroying their habitat. The alternative to hunting is slow starvation for the deer, in most places.

[Mona Blue]

294. That's child abuse.

God that is sad. These people are just brain dead.

[Brickbat]

296. Did you watch the video?

Your opinion that it is "child abuse" is laughable.

[Name removed]

308. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

374. And you are people abuse. Neener-neener-neeener.....! n/t

[cornermouse]

311. Some major, major problems with this.

1. She isn't big enough and strong enough to hold the gun herself.
2. She's only 6 years old. She doesn't have the judgment needed to handle a gun safely. She doesn't know gun safety. And she probably really doesn't understand that she can kill people with that gun and that death for people is just as permanent as it is for whatever she's hunting.

An incredibly bad idea all the way around. What was her father thinking when he did this?

By the way, my dad went deer hunting in season and he taught us to gun safety and to shoot. He would never have considered putting a bb gun in our hands at the age of 10, let alone 6. One other thing. IF my dad saw someone doing this on his property, they would have been abruptly "invited" to leave and never come back.

[Kaleva]

323. Her Dad held the gun for her.

And as she just killed a deer and loves to go hunting with her Dad, she's probably very aware by now of what a gun can do.

[joeybee12]

326. She's too young to understand the concept of death...she is therefore too young to hunt...

saying otherwise is simply bloodlust.

[Kaleva]

335. I grew up on a farm.

I was well aware of the concept of death at a very early age.

[Brickbat]

336. Six-year-olds are perfectly capable of understanding death, especially if their parents aren't

afraid of talking about death or of death itself. Which is a big "if" in our culture, true.

[PavePusher]

377. Ah, you've met them and know them well?

Or are you simply casting out unsupported assumptions?

[Brickbat]

334. Your father must have thought you weren't ready for handling the guns at age 10.

Most parents are capable of making those decisions about their own children. Judging from the video, it sounds like things went quite well.

[cornermouse]

343. You miss my point.

1. My dad really believed in gun safety, not lip service to gun safety. Not only did he teach us gun safety himself, he then sent us to hunter safety class. He told us repeatedly that guns were not toys, they were weapons capable of killing; a concept that seems to escape many in Missouri.

2. He would have kicked that clown off the property and he wouldn't have been nice about it.

And finally, he did, in fact, turn in at least two poachers including the one that nearly shot him while he was sitting up in a tree during deer season.

[PavePusher]

376. You are implying a lot of assumptions about a father and daughter you've never met.

And insinuating a false equivalence between them and poachers is at best intellectual dishonesty.

[cornermouse]

402. He pretty much has the same level of IQ as a poacher.

And I know for a fact that my dad would have either thrown him off the property because he did it to others who he judged to be unsafe with guns...what that idiot did falls WEll within that category or he would have stopped him from ever setting foot on the property the first time.

[PavePusher]

411. You make assertions without supporting evidence.

Good luck with that.

[spin]

329. My daughter probably fired her first rifle when she was seven or eight ...

My ex and myself enjoyed shooting handguns at the range. We would take our daughter and while she enjoyed the noise and activity, she wanted to shoot.

I had a single shot .22 cal rifle. I cut the stock off so it would fit her. I sat her down at the bench and placed the rifle on sandbags. She held it and fired with me right by her shoulder ready to react if she failed to keep the rifle pointed downrange.

Of course, after a while she wanted to shoot handguns like Mommy and Daddy. That presented a problem since her hands were so small. I finally bought a S&W .22 caliber Kit Gun with adjustable sights and a 4" barrel. The only handgun I could find to fit her hands.



Before I took her to the range, I had her learn all the gun safety rules. She also memorized the nomenclature of all the external parts of the revolver such a barrel, cylinder, hammer, trigger, sights etc.

At the range I was very careful to supervise while she was shooting. Eventually she became quite proficient at shooting the Kit Gun which is a very accurate firearm.

After a couple of years she moved up to larger caliber handguns and her preference was my S&W Model 25-2 .45 acp target revolver.



This firearm is as big as Dirty Harry's .44 magnum, but the recoil is far more manageable. She loved to walk out on the firing line, load the big revolver and attract attention from all the other shooters.

One night when she was 17 years old an intruder tried to break into our home. The alarm was sounding and when she walked into the kitchen she encountered the guy who was halfway through the sliding glass door he was forcing open.

He said to my daughter, "I'm going to rape you."

She had the big S&W revolver at her side and he hadn't noticed it. She drew down on him and the sight of a 5' 2" girl who weighted less than 100 pounds soaking wet with a monster handgun in her hands, caused him to run.

No shots were fired, a no one was hurt. My daughter did tell me that if he had actually been inside the house rather than just entering, she would have shot him. She said, "Dad, you always told me to never shoot a intruder if he was outside. He was only halfway in."

[Name removed]

338. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bucky]

367. I find this so disgusting that I nearly threw up my venison burger.

Seriously, unless you're a vegetarian, you don't get to complain about this. Was anyone really under the impression that all the meat we eat doesn't first go through a premature death? Hunting is a basic, normal, ages-old human activity. This was a family bonding moment... so I say he's a good dad.

[Baclava]

392. I don't see the problem if it's legal for her to hunt in that state

Just a dad giving his girl some confidence in the hunt, if she likes that sort of stuff.

We all know he was holding the rifle and letting her squeeze the trigger after getting it on-target. She'll remember that for the rest of her life.

[The Straight Story]

404. In the end it is simple: Their lives, their choice. That is the crux of freedom

Whether or not some likes it all does not matter. People can hunt, parents can take their kids hunting (or fishing).

They both seem happy with it, will have some food that they did not have to buy at a store, and it really is not anyone else's business.

[cornermouse]

409. Only if they own the property they're hunting on and

no one gets shot. If its not their own property or if someone gets hurt or killed, it becomes a lot of people's business.

[cornermouse]

436. I should probably add something else.

This morning's news is about a 13 year old who shot his mother and stepfather. I don't know the reasons why he did that; mental illness, abuse, or something else (?) but it seems to me that this is a child who should never have been taught or allowed to handle a gun. 6 years old or kindergarten is typically a time when children are screened at school. And my final point remains that if the child is too young to hold the gun by him/herself, they're too young to have it put into their hands.

[PavePusher]

441. Again you insinuate that someone just handed the kid a gun.

It was held by both parent and child simultaineously. There was adequete supervision. The child had fun.

Your implied false equivelancies to possibly criminal action are disingenuous, at best.

[cornermouse]

448. How many times and ways do I need to say

a child who is too small to hold a gun by herself is too small to shoot it.

The 13 year old who shot his mother and stepfather is fact. So is the kid who was shooting at a pond close to my house (think rocks and ricochet and sliding glass doors with my kids behind them) several years ago.

[PavePusher]

449. Your latter example demonstrates improper supervision and training.

I grew up with guns and never did such things.

In your example of the parent-shooter, you gave no context, but earlier hypothesized possible child abuse. In those circumstances, the child may have been acting in self-defense, something no-one is ever too young to do.

You aren't using parallel examples to the original case.

And you ignore the facts of it as well.

[flvegan]

407. Hunting + children = epic DU thread.

Applause.

[aikoaiko]

410. Applause.

[snooper2]

444. I was trying to see if we could throw a pitbull in the mix...

like, hunting with my 6 year old daughter and pitbull :P

[The Straight Story]

450. I think she was riding the pitbull and smoking when she pulled the trigger

And she probably drove the corpse home in her hummer and stopped by Olive garden on the way :)

[awoke_in_2003]

419. okay, I haven't read the thread yet...

but I have to say "WTF?". If she was taught proper safety measures then what the hell. Children today have a serious disconnect about where their food comes from. "Where do you get corn?" "The grocery store". "Where do you get hamburger?" "The grocery store". Children have to learn someday that people bust their ass to provide produce for the city folk, and, OH MY, animals have to die to provide us with meat. I would rather see people hunt their meat, where the odds of the animal surviving are greater, than see the meat farming system we have now, when animals live a life of misery until death. And maybe, just maybe- some of these folks will realize- "A living being had to die to provide me food". Maybe some of these will decide consuming animal flesh is not worth it.

[Ramulux]

421. Hunting is so twisted

I think it should be considered child abuse to take a kid that young out into the wilderness and let her murder defenseless animals. I will never understand what makes people enjoy hunting, its so incredibly fucked up.

[Rebubula]

439. Your opinion is noted

And filed away under ethnocentrism.

[one-eyed fat man]

442. Oh, I dunno, but...........

A brisk fall afternoon, a couple of close-working pointers and a quick-handling double in 28 gauge beats the hell out listening to twits who hold themselves as morally superior because they "hire their killing done." Buy your meat from a butcher and pretending it's not dead cows is as hypocritical as buying dope and pretending Mexicans aren't killing each other with bullets you pay for.

Then later, just to mock the Mario Cuomo-esque image of “hunters who drink beer, don’t vote and lie to their wives,” have a little Chardonnay with this recipe. They can keep their tofu, lattes and hairy-legged women.

Ingredients:

6 large portobello mushrooms
1/2 cup extra-virgin olive oil
1 medium yellow onion -- peeled and finely chopped
10 sprigs fresh thyme
6 quail
salt and freshly ground black pepper
1/3 cup balsamic vinegar


Directions:
Trim mushrooms and wipe clean with a damp dish towel. Remove stems and chop enough to make 1 cup, discarding the rest. Heat 1/4 cup oil in a large skillet over medium heat. Add mushroom caps and cook, turning once, until golden, about 3 minutes per side. Remove with a slotted spoon and set aside.

Reduce heat to low and add another 2 tablespoon oil to skillet. Add onions, chopped mushroom stems, and 3 sprigs thyme, and cook until onions are soft, stirring occasionally, about 20 minutes. Return mushroom caps to skillet.

Meanwhile, coat another skillet with remaining oil and heat over medium heat. Rinse quail, pat dry, and season inside and out with salt and pepper. Cook, browning on all sides, for 18-20 minutes.

Transfer quail to onion-mushroom mixture, placing 1 quail on top of each mushroom cap.

For the sauce, deglaze quail skillet with vinegar and 1/4 cup water, scraping bits from bottom of skillet. Pour sauce around quail, then increase heat to medium and cook just until mushroom caps are warmed through and sauce is slightly thickened, 1-3 minutes. Garnish with remaining thyme and serve from skillet.

[PavePusher]

443. You are a vegan, right? Or a screaming hypocrite..... n/t

[snooper2]

445. Good thing you born in say, 1870

You would have been out grazing with the cows and goats behind the barn :)

[pipoman]

446. Ignorance is bliss

Why the fuck don't all parents do the right thing and sit their children in front of the teevee with their Frankenberry instead of teaching them something useful...child abuse, how obtuse..


Oh, and "murder", what a completely stupid and ignorant use of the word.

[slackmaster]

457. Murder is defined in every US state as the unlawful killing of a human being

With malice aforethought.

HTH

[darkstar3]

447. What exactly is it about guns and hunting

that turns a DU thread about either of them into a shit tornado?

Can we have some actual thought here, please? Can we stop with the throwing of insulting bullshit that just might fit on a bumper sticker and consider a couple of things?

1. It is not abnormal to teach children about guns at a young age. Like many DUers, I grew up in a rural hunting culture and my parents started teaching me about guns at the age of 4. As uncomfortable as that may make some people, in a house where guns are kept it is necessary (and even encouraged by very smart authorities on the subject) to teach your children about weapon safety EARLY in life. It is not child abuse to hand a weapon to a six-year-old if they are properly supervised. My father received his first .22 rifle when he was six, and he gave that very same rifle to me when I was 6. He kept it in his room and out of my reach, but it was MY gun. It was the gun I learned to shoot with, the gun I learned to clean, and the gun he actually asked my permission to use when he went squirrel hunting. The sense of ownership that he instilled in me over that gun also helped raise my sense of responsibility. I do not feel that I was in any way abused by this judicious use of psychology. I think, in fact, that it was good parenting.

2. Killing is a different story. As JoePhilly pointed out above, young children are not properly familiar with the concept of death, and it can be dangerous to introduce a child to killing at such a young age. You can't be certain of the repercussions of such an introduction. That, hunter friends, is why so many people have a problem with this concept. It may be difficult for them to articulate, especially in light of the aforementioned problems regarding gun topics, but most people (even some of you coming to the defense of this parent) are keenly aware that 6 is too young an age for a first kill in today's society. (Prior societies have been mentioned in this thread, but those comparisons might as well be between apples and jetliners due to the issues faced by today's developing children and their parents.)

So how about we all calm down for a few minutes and recognize that this story falls once again in a gray area. It is not an example of a purely evil psychotic father who is raising a gun-nut who might kill somebody. It is also not an example of perfect parenting "for a different culture." And once we recognize that, maybe we can step back and take a look at the fact that this turned into a 400+ post flamewar over a slow-news-day story while real and important information was available elsewhere on the site. I think everyone should think about the implications of that...

[kick-ass-bob]

452. But, I just enjoyed my 7th bag reading this thread.

:popcorn:

[aikoaiko]

456. IBTMTOLG

I beat the move to Outdoor Life Group.

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[PavePusher]

459. Took you long enough... 8>P n/t