Golden Revenge On A Bully

[meegbear]

From today's Ask Reddit, which queries the Reddit community on legal issues.

Question: A relative of a close friend helped a school bully drink piss, and now the family is suing. Is he liable?

Background: Relative of a close friend (we'll call him Todd) carried Mountain Dew in his backpack to school every day. For a few weeks, this bully ("Brian") would go in his bag, say fuck you, and drink the Mountain Dew. Fed up with this and being a cunning lad, last Tuesday Todd drinks the Mountain Dew before class, and pisses in the bottle. Brian drank the piss, shat brix, and Todd emerged the victor that day. Now, Brian's family is threatening to sue, claiming Todd endangered Brian's health. Todd's family is apparently shitting and scrambling to collect character references for Todd from teachers, letters from doctors saying urine isn't harmful, and generally thinking their son is a psycho. I applaud Todd and think that he should walk into court holding a bottle of piss, it's freedom of expression, some people like piss filled bottles, but IANAL.

Edit: The school became aware of the incident when it happened. I believe Todd was suspended for a short period of time. The principal is actually instructing Brian's parents to press charges because the school doesn't want to get further involved

The Reddit folks are split on the question, with some saying that "the trap" set by the bullied kid makes him liable.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2010/11/golden-revenge-on-bully.html

I think the kid got what he deserved.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. I agree

It's not the kid being bullied - his fault that the kid didn't know the difference between urine and Mountain Dew.

Why did the bully drink the whole thing in the first place? And is there a law against someone peeing in a bottle they own?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

3. "... the kid didn't know the difference between urine and Mountain Dew."

Neither do I.

My understanding is that urine is sterile. Not only that, but didn't Gandhi used to drink his urine?

So, no harm.

[Chulanowa]

31. It comes out sterile

But it's full of all sorts of goodies that encourage bacterial growth. However odds are that any bacteria in a mountain dew bottle aren't going to be especially harmful to ingest.

however their kid could get sick as hell just from drinking after someone else anyway. The family is a pack of idiots.

[MadHound]

2. Bully is lucky that the only thing in the bottle was piss

There are several, nasty, tasty chemical combinations that can be made to look like piss, yet would permanently, adversely effect the bully, or even kill him.

Frankly I think he got what he deserved and he and his parents need to learn their lesson and back off.

[tomg]

4. Hmmm. Piss or Mountain Dew.

That's a tough one. I would imagine piss is probably healthier. I mean it is Mountain Dew we are talking about.

Actually, I think Todd rocks. What are the parents going to sue for: "Our kid stole this other kid's mountain dew everyday, and one day the victim pissed in the mountain dew knowing that our little creep was going to steal it. We are suing." Maybe the democrats in government can learn something from this kid about dealing with bullies.

[flvegan]

5. Intent is a funny thing in a court of law.

[LoZoccolo]

18. Here is Liam Gallagher standing up to someone who bullied his brother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX5JBsKih0c

[dionysus]

28. i'd like to see the gallagher brothers drink some pee. Oasis is the worst Beatles cover band ever.

[Erose999]

6. The bully got what he deserved. He stole the bottle and drank from it, he should deal with the

consequences. He wasn't harmed anyway, other than humiliation... which is just the way bullies should be dealt with.

We had a similar problem at a restaurant I worked at. One of the local drunks would snatch unattended drinks from customers' tables and drink them. This would happen mostly on out outdoor patio. Customers would go into the main building to get their food or use the restroom and find someone had helped them finish their beers while they were away from their table. One day we set out a beer bottle filled with hot sauce as "bait" and we haven't had that problem since.

[soryang]

7. Counterclaim for assault, battery, intentional infliction of emotional

...distress, ask for punitive damages.

[dalaigh lllama]

8. But the bully stole it

Todd just happened to be carrying a urine specimen in his Mountain Dew bottle that day. He didn't force the kid to steal it from his backpack and drink it. I don't see that Brian's folks ( who must be as charming as their spawn) have a case.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Exactly. How many times did Todd try to tell the bully to not steal

his bottle? Doesn't warning someone not to do something preclude culpability when they go ahead and do it anyway?

[jancantor]

48. The issue is INTENT

something people are failing to grasp. If the kid clearly knew (and he did) that the kid would steal his mountain dew, as he continually did, and he pissed in the bottle, he did so with the intent the kid would drink it. Could he be sued? yes. Would it be successful? Who knows?

If you have been burglarized 6 times, and the guy went through window X each time, so you set up a hole in the floor beneath the window knowing he would probably fall and break his leg, you set a trap. You are liable. You cannot set injurious traps. Even for burglars.

Otoh, if you were fixing your floor and weren't doing it with the intent to injure a burglar and a burglar just happened to get injured - there was no intent.

Intent is the very essence of much of the law. It is not always necessary element (see gross negligence, etc.) but it makes a difference. The pee thing was such a minor "trap", that I think suing is pretty ridiculous. But the situation is not analogous to somebody who just happened to have a bottle of pee in his backpack, and some guy stole it and drank it. Why? Because the INTENT was different.

[Vincardog]

9. Just have Todd go to court and say 'To the best of my recollection I do not remember pissing in the

Mountain Dew. Maybe some one else was pissed off at the bullying asshole and switched them.'
IF it can keep traitors out of trouble why not Todd?

[Lucy Goosey]

10. He drank the contents of a bottle that he stole? That's his problem.

And I'm not sure that urine is any worse for his health than Mountain Dew, anyway.

[Marr]

11. And the bully's family is sueing, which explains the bully's behavior.

Their little angel can do no wrong.

Contrary to popular belief, bullies don't envy the people they pick on, and they certainly aren't suffering from low self esteem. Quite the opposite. They think very highly of themselves and simply enjoy hurting people that won't hurt them back.

I think anything that humiliates bullies should be fair game. They need to have their self-esteem lowered.

[pipi_k]

19. Actually it's a bit more complicated than just low self esteem...

Shame has a lot to do with it.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intense-emotions-and-strong-feelings/201010/do-bullies-really-have-low-self-esteem



I'm not so sure that trying to lower the self esteem of a bully is the way to stop the bullying if doing so adds to the shame the bully already carries around.

In any case, humiliating anybody...bully or not...is immature and just as bad as being a bully oneself.

[Edweird]

12. The bully got what he deserved. Want some clues as to why he is like that?

Look at his parents trying to sue in defense of their strong arm robber son.

[meegbear]

24. +1

[Incitatus]

13. "because the school doesn't want to get further involved"

If the school had got involved in the first place, it wouldn't have had to come to this.

Good for Todd.

[Matariki]

14. Fucking hell. If the principal had done her/his job and stopped the bullying

It wouldn't have gone that far.

I applaud Todd, btw. Without any support from adults he fought back in the best way he could.

[Brewman_Jax]

16. If the bully hadn't stolen it in the first place

there'd be no incident. Also, shame on the school for letting it go this far.

[petronius]

17. Perhaps Todd should 'admit' that he lied - it wasn't piss at all, just the

regular old MD. He only said it was to embarrass the bully. :)

Legally, however, I'm betting Todd is in trouble. It seems clear that he intended for the bully to drink piss (no matter how it was obtained) and I suspect that would count as some sort of assault or whatever. I doubt the court will accept that it was the only possible remedy - they'll ask why he didn't report the bullying, for example...

[XemaSab]

26. If someone breaks into my house and my dogs tear them to shreds

can they sue me for having dangerous animals?

[immoderate]

30. I think they can.

When I first got a gun, one person told me if you are going to shoot an intruder, make sure you kill him, because if he lives, he will sue your ass.

Anybody can sue anybody else. They might not win, but the defendant is a loser anyway.

--imm

[XemaSab]

35. I guess it's good that I have 250 lbs of dog

to "welcome" any visitors. :D

[immoderate]

37. Let your puppies work for you. I'm all for that.

--imm

[petronius]

38. It's not really analogous, unless you somehow deceived them into thinking that there

weren't dangerous animals, and then got the dogs all riled up and vicious. Under normal circumstances, they still might sue you but would probably lose.

The OP is different - Todd deliberately set a trap intended to cause harm to the bully, I doubt if it really matters to the law that the trap relied on a criminal act by the bully. It's funny as hell, and the bully got what he deserved, but I'd bet Todd is in for a pile of legal trouble (especially if he made no prior effort to report the bullying). In my ideal world the complaint would be laughed out of court and the bully would get an additional punishment for the theft, but I doubt that's going to happen...

[XemaSab]

40. You forgot the part where the bully's parents pay court costs

:D

[devilgrrl]

20. He stole the bottle and drank the contents - no ones problem but his.

Mwaa ha ha bully!!!

[pacalo]

21. If the bully hadn't taken what didn't belong to him, it wouldn't have happened.

As Judge Judy might say, the bully should take this as a life's lesson: keep your hands to yourself, fella!

[MindandSoul]

22. I applaud the kid who fought back! Next time. . . he should bring

"Chocolate pudding" to school. . .and let the bully eat it!

But I'm not surprise the kid is a bully. . .he got that from his parents who are now trying to "bully" the victim!
If my kid had come home telling me he stole someone else's drink as a matter of habit, and got caught drinking piss. . .I would have said he got what he deserved and even called the parents of the other kid to apologize for all the bullying that had taken place before that day!

[ThomCat]

23. The bully is 100% at fault.

He was bullying the kid.

He stole from the kid every single day.

He stole this particular bottle from that kid, and drank it, even though he didn't know the contents.

He assumed full responsibility and liability when he STOLE the bottle from the kid he was BULLYING.

What more do you need to know? Geez!

[Renew Deal]

25. Todd should be punished when Brian is convicted of multiple thefts.

[xchrom]

27. Let's see -- a thief, a repeat offender at that -- steals a bottle

And -- surprise! -- drinks piss.

He should cry me a river.

[treestar]

29. It is vigilantism

Would it have been so tough to report this kid to the cops? He was presumably guilty of theft and offensive touching.

[Chulanowa]

32. Yes, it would

Bullying is almost never taken seriously by anyone who can do anything about it.

[treestar]

49. Not where I live

I've been in Family Court over cases where a kid slapped a teacher lightly on the arm, and where two kids got into a fight.

Around here this kid would be dealt with by authorities.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

45. How is it "vigilantism"?

Someone stole his urine filled bottle of Mountain Dew and drank it. Vigilantism would be if he held him down and forced him to drink it.

[treestar]

50. OK, I can see that distinction.

The lawsuit would be interesting - the arguments about intent. Yet the bully was the one who put himself in the situation, so the intent to harm him, while there, is something of which he might have assumed the risk.

[Lucian]

33. The bully got what he fucking deserved...

but I don't know what the legal ramifications are, if any. :shrug:

[immoderate]

34. This parallels an urban legend...

A friend who graduated from Gompers Vocational HS in NYC told a story about a bully who would grab and eat his victim's lunch every day. The story goes that the kid made some sandwiches with Ken-L-Ration, and the bully grabbed them as gobbled them down.

Don't remember what happened next, but surely not a law suit.

--imm

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. I can see the school not taking a position, but it seems odd that the principal

is encouraging legal action.

Also have to ask if Todd every reported it and if he did not, why not

[Luciferous]

39. I agree, he got what he deserved. Maybe Brian should be in the one

getting in trouble for theft.

[Kaleko]

41. Bullies have to be stopped immediately. Hit them hard, that's the only way

they'll learn. Never enable a bully to keep building more confidence.

Big bullies in business and government prove this point over and over again.

[lunatica]

42. And now the whole world knows the bully drank piss!

Karmic adjustments can be painful

[REP]

43. Can I send money to Todd?

Kid deserves a reward!

[LisaL]

44. I think this was a smart idea but he might have been better off

just adding a lot of salt to the drink or something to that effect.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Unclean hands should stop the bully from suing.

The bully committed theft multiple times.
The doctrine of "unclean hands" would lead me to believe that his suit should be thrown out, since he committed a crime first.


I AM a lawyer, but I don't play one on TV like Spader and Shatner. :D

[Xicano]

47. Urine in a bottle? Plenty of history behind the subject.

The kid should say he was only mimicking his religion. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmmsKrCGgE&feature=related