Union's rat protest upsets Joliet church using scab labor

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/2906278,CST-NWS-ratchurch19.article

November 19, 2010

BY JOE HOSEY Herald-News

The Westminster Presbyterian Church in Joliet has a rat problem: Scabby the Rat.

Angry that the church is using non-union help, Local 11 of the roofer's union has put its infamous inflatable rat -- nicknamed Scabby -- outside the church.

"It's just ugly, and all people are seeing right now is a big yellow rat in front of our church," said the Rev. Matthew Robinson, pastor of the 55-year-old church on Winthrop Avenue.

"Golly, we don't need that. That's not who we are."

[hobbit709]

1. "Golly, we don't need that. That's not who we are."

Oh yes you are.

[flpab]

2. Scabby the rat

We had him at the Space Center when USA space alliance went on strike several years ago. He is huge and does grab a person's attention.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. pic

[madrchsod]

3. the one around here is a big black rat.

[elehhhhna]

4. That's an improvement -- the Will County Carpenters union used to

just torch the buildings under construction by non-u labor.

[whistler162]

5. Not one of the brighter protests.....

fire in the building of a poor congregation. Maybe they should have worked with the church to find a way of providing union sanctioned roofers for an affordable, to the congregation, price!

But, I guess it is more important to make zeroes out of themselves instead of heroes.

[NNN0LHI]

6. The union should have dropped their pay to scab labor rates?

Hey, how about we try that with your job and wages and see how that works out?

Talk is cheap isn't it?

Don

[Obamanaut]

16. If they had done so, they not only would be working, they would be doing

something good for someone (I know it's hard for some people to want to do anything good for a church) AND they would be doing actual work instead of walking on a sidewalk.

[fascisthunter]

19. sorry but you are wrong

the protester was right... thanks for not supporting the working class

[Obamanaut]

29. I suspect the workmen on the roof are also 'working class.' As for

being wrong, if one doesn't automatically embrace an answer, that does not automatically make one wrong, or the answer the only right one.

[Codeine]

32. They are scabs.

Scabs aren't working-class. Scabs are filth.

[FooshIt]

39. Wow. Just Wow.

Maybe we should round up all the "scabs" and clean them off the earth. Can't believe the attitude of some supposed liberals.

[Codeine]

41. I can't believe the attitudes either.

Supporting union-bashing and scabs is simply bizarre to me.

[FooshIt]

43. But how do you justify saying that these people are human filth?

It just seems wrong that these people who are just trying to get by are treated so hatefully. They are just trying to feed their families, just like you, just like me and just like many other people.

[Codeine]

45. They do it on the backs of others.

Didn't anyone ever teach people around here how solidarity and organized labor actually works? Do none of you comprehend that everything you have as workers - literally EVERYTHING - was bought with union blood and was threatened at every turn by the bosses and their scab toadies? :shrug: I guess those days are gone forever.

[FooshIt]

51. you are still doing it

You are still treating people as sub human in almost every sentence. You have to realize that we are all people. Even the people who are not in the same group as you need to eat, need to pay bills to keep the heat on and the gas tank filled. We are in tough economic times and it gets even tougher with winter and Christmas coming up. Even if a lot of the bosses you hate are comfortable there are a lot of people who aren't and your attitude of treating them so poorly will do nothing to help.

[Codeine]

56. That's the same tired argument they've always made.

Undercutting the unions and weakening Labor has been a bang-up success hasn't it? Face it -- you guys on the anti-Labor side won; enjoying the spoils of victory yet?

[FooshIt]

58. Win, lose or tie were the same

all this talk of "you guys" and "human filth" is not going to help anyone. Are you enjoying the spoils of treating people as sub human?

[NNN0LHI]

71. No I am not the same as some scab

You may be? But I am not.

Don

[Codeine]

75. + fucking 1!

:yourock:

[FooshIt]

76. What is the difference

Where do you get your superiority (I assume by not the same you mean better). Why do his children not deserve to eat?

[blondeatlast]

122. He can join the union--and the union will see to it that his family is taken care

of during a strike.

Read up.

[Cid_B]

150. Maybe he doesn't want to give his money to you...

and would rather use it for his family.

Maybe he decided that he is willing to go at his profession alone as opposed to collectively.

Maybe he thinks he knows how to take care of his family better than a collective unit who doesn't have his needs first?

Who the fuck are you people who think this is mandatory? It isn't... and damn well shouldn't be.

[PavePusher]

170. Free will, freedom of choice and liberty...

seem to give Authoritarians a massive case of the heebie-jeebies.

Sad, in what is supposed to be a democratic republic.

[Ikonoklast]

200. All the right-wing, self-sufficient, bootstrap garbage in one post.

And anti-union to boot.

If you're a Democrat, I'm Queen Victoria.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

201. +1 for correctness.

[me b zola]

179. He is taking food out of the mouths of the children of the men and women

whose job he is stealing with his scab labor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g

[FooshIt]

221. and if someone else was doing that job would they be stealing from him

when you treat someone as undeserving of supporting their family you are treating them as sub human and that is wrong.

[readmoreoften]

82. +1

[blondeatlast]

121. Word. nt

[mitchtv]

155. nor I

Union forever

[Dreamer Tatum]

158. I think you're seriously full of it

your Marxism is just a little too strident, at too loud a patois. There is what you read in books, and then there is real life. I suspect you have many books, but no real life experience.

[Dr.Phool]

68. Scabs are sub-human.

Deal with it.

[FooshIt]

73. How so?

What if I said blacks or gays or farmers or pot smokers or AIDS patients or athiests or muslims or anybody is sub human. Is that ok too?

[PavePusher]

98. I guess you never heard the term "free market". n/t

[Codeine]

108. Not an altar at which I worship.

YMMV

[PavePusher]

97. The church is not union-bashing.

The church can't afford union rates.

Have you volunteered to help them with their finances?

If not, you really need to shut the fuck up and stop the agit-prop.

[blondeatlast]

123. Jesus was a carpenter--and I'm betting a Union one. He had a thing to say about religious hypocrites

and the moneychangers in the Temple.

Read up.

[PavePusher]

171. Where's the hypocracy here?

Poor church. Little money. Need roof.

What is your solution, speaking of hypocracy...

[Book Lover]

182. When I don't have enough money for something,

I save up what I can, or find extra work to bring in more. Maybe the people in the congregation can do the same things I or you or anyone else would have to do.

[PavePusher]

195. Perhaps that is how they are already getting their current roof.

I really don't understand why some individuals want to pig-pile on this church. Show me the evidence that they could affford to hire union labor and you've got a talking point. Even then, if they are paying their current workers a decent wage, there is no moral or legal imperative to do otherwise. And if they can't afford it, there is no moral or legal imperative to force them, especially if you have no solutions to their financial issues.

[fishwax]

209. do you have any evidence that they can't afford it?

[PavePusher]

211. I do not. I'm not the one making the claim that they do.

I've merely presented possibilities to counter the unsupported claims made by some here.

However, I've spent far too much time on this, and have other fish to fry. Have a good day.

[fishwax]

212. you've been claiming that they're poor and that they can't afford union labor

[PavePusher]

213. From the original article in the OP:

"The church has needed a new roof since a July fire sparked by an electrical short gutted the place. The 200-member congregation has made steady progress recovering from the inferno, but it has been tough, Robinson said. "We're a little church with aging members," he said. "It's hard economic times right now." "

No-one has posted evidence to repudiate this.

Have a nice day, it's sunny as heck here, got to get some work done.

[fishwax]

215. that's not really evidence at all

hard economic times means different things for different people. What Robinson said hardly demonstrates that they're a poor congregation or that they can't afford to hire union labor. But you've been claiming throughout that they're poor and that they can't afford it, and implying that pro-union posters are hypocritical if they haven't helped the church financially.

[Doremus]

220. You get what you pay for.

I know a man who wanted to save a buck on his roof so he hired what he thought was a reputable non-union company.

He is still embroiled in lawsuits from the damage they caused. He could have had 10 new roofs installed by union carpenters for what it is costing him in attorney fees and settlements.

There is far more that comes with union membership than dues. In the building trades they have a something called 'apprenticeship' which leads to another thing known as 'journeyman.' These two things are the difference between shoddiness and quality, safety v. danger, cost v. savings.

Training, knowledge and skill are a win-win for all concerned.

And, yes, people who would put their own self-interests above those of the greater community, in this instance the larger cause of worker's rights, work conditions, wages, etc., are indeed the worst kind of scum on this earth and I have absolutely NO sympathy for them.

[readmoreoften]

54. People who cross picket lines are the enemy of the working class.

There is no gray area. There is solidarity or no solidarity.

[Codeine]

57. I suspect the people taking the side of the "poor abused scabs"

have nice comfortable white-collar jobs with lovely benefits. They don't give a fuck about people who sweat for a living.

[Obamanaut]

59. Actually, it was more a case of taking the side of the small church with

a small congregation, trying to do the best it can during this economic downturn. You've heard of this, right?

[superduperfarleft]

65. So why don't the scabs work for free? n/t

[Codeine]

72. I'm sure the scabs wouldn't mind if the church brought in some

undocumented aliens to do the work even cheaper, right? I mean, if it's all about the most bang for one's buck they couldn't possibly be offended.

[superduperfarleft]

80. But with illegals, they'd at least be afforded some sort of basic protections.

You fucking communist. I suggest we pull poor children out of school and make THEM work on the roof. I'm sure a couple of 18-hour-days with no benefits and no wasted money on things like safety harnesses, hard hats, workers comp, etc. would get that fucker done nice and quick!

[Codeine]

83. I read that back in the day they had ways of making some folks work entirely for free.

Now THAT'S bang for the church's buck in these tough economic times.

[superduperfarleft]

85. Yeah, the 1800s were great until liberal do-gooders got involved. n/t

[DiverDave]

180. liberal do-gooders?? WTF??

Just outed yourself a bit there, pal.

Take your union bashing, ronny raygun loving ass and let your fingers do the walking over to that site that applauds statements like that.

My dad AND mom benefited from their fathers being in unions.
I just wish my kids could benefit too.
But union busting assholes that want the rich fucks to have more money have broken just about all the unions in this country.

Happy?,
That my kids have gone without health care because I got fired by assholes telling lies about me.
I would still have my job if I had worked at a union shop.

So, bugger off.

And..... UNION!

[superduperfarleft]

193. Oh good lord.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

Hope your healthcare plan covers chronic knee-jerk.

[Codeine]

217. Wow. That giant whooshing sound was the joke going over your head. nt

[PavePusher]

102. Ah, extrapolating from 1 to Infinity without data. How very, very clever of you. n/t

[Codeine]

109. If it's all about cutting costs and saving a buck

then bring on the day laborers and undocumented! Free market, baby!!

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

130. Have you?

[PavePusher]

151. I'm not the one gnashing teeth over them not hiring union workers. n/t

[Codeine]

160. And why would I?

They should take it up with their insurance company.

[PavePusher]

172. You have evidence they didn't? Or that they even had insurance?

You seem remarkably free of practical solutions and actual data, but full of accusations, aspersions and verbal bigotry.

[FooshIt]

60. Some guy trying to make money to feed his family is called human filth

Because he is on a roof trying to fix it. Where is the humanity in that? Please tell me.

[superduperfarleft]

84. Some guys trying to protect their dwindling livelihood against an onslaught of anti-union sentiment

are called "assholes" and "thugs" because they refuse to join the rest of us in the race to the bottom, and unlike the rest of us, actually fight to hang on to what they have left. Where is the humanity in that?

[readmoreoften]

88. Because he is stealing the food out of some other guy's kid's mouths.

What if it was a strike based on racial injustices rather than pay rate? Is the scab a "poor downtrodden member of society" in that case. A scab is a selfish person who puts their own well-being before others.

[FooshIt]

223. How is he stealing

If the work was performed by someone else would they be stealing from the "subhuman scabs" mouth?

[blondeatlast]

124. He could join the union and be supported while the church was picketed.

Instead, he's a scab.

[mitchtv]

156. strike breaker-scab-scumbags

al the same, the pickets are there for a reason

[PavePusher]

101. From the little info in the article, it sounds like the picketing started AFTER the work began.

By definition, workers are "working class" regardless of union affiliation.

But your attempt to NewSpeak the language is noted. And abhored.

[Rochester]

47. You're giving filth a bad name! :)

[fascisthunter]

34. a very Rumsfeldian reply

I still stand by my statement... thanks for not helping.

[fascisthunter]

20. dupe

[readmoreoften]

21. You don't understand unions. Twenty years ago, your views would be considered extreme far-right

Republicanism.

[mitchtv]

157. looks to me like they still are,,,

definitely not Democratic

[Occulus]

198. Those views still ARE extreme far-right republicanism.

It's just that our tent has gotten so big that people like that are let in now.

MISTAKE. Major, possibly fatal mistake.

[Codeine]

24. They would be undermining the entire fucking reason unions exist.

Anti-labor Democrats aren't Democrats at all.

[readmoreoften]

26. Unfortunately, these days they are. Worse than that, they call themselves "the Left."

They're a disaster.

[superduperfarleft]

38. Why don't you volunteer to take a pay cut? You know, in the interest of your company? n/t

[Rage for Order]

196. It happened innumerable times after hurricane Katrina

Thousands of volunteers worked for nothing but a hot meal to help people who had suffered a tremendous loss and couldn't afford to pay the normal going rate for construction costs. I know, helping out your neighbors in need is a novel concept, but it does happen.

:eyes:

[Greyhound]

99. So this church didn't carry fire insurance?

Now you advocate that workers should pay for the negligence of the church's administration? Did they stop their Minister's pay? Should the utilities forgo their gas/water/electric bills?

C'mon, curious minds want to know...

[Codeine]

110. That is a DAMNED good question. nt

[blondeatlast]

125. Good questions. nt

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

7. Sorry, reverend, but that's EXACTLY who you are. nt

[safeinOhio]

9. Does the Reverend take

money to do Gods work? Would he be ok with finding some one to do his work for half what he makes?

[Scruffy1]

129. Yep a fucking scab with a tax shelter

[Omaha Steve]

8. K&R!

[mopinko]

10. guess what rev?

you are. you're members are. dig deep, cough it up, balance the budget on someone else's back.

[PavePusher]

104. Have you volunteered to help with their finances?

I bet not.

[mopinko]

166. why would i? i don't support any church.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brickbat]

11. Hey, Rev! If it's "not who you are," it's pretty easy to do the right thing, then. Problem solved.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

13. Dunno, but I think Jesus would be a Union man. Carpenter, all that stuff

about the moneychangers, the folks he hung with...

[PavePusher]

14. There sure are a lot of anti-choice people in the room today. n/t

[Codeine]

35. say what now? nt

[superduperfarleft]

37. Nothing, he's just hijacking the reproductive rights movement's slogan in an attempt to bash unions.

Very clever on his part. So clever, just soooo clever.

[PavePusher]

93. Not bashing unions per se.

Bashing the people who want to force others to use only union labor.

Freedom of choice, eh?

[superduperfarleft]

95. .

:eyes:

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

116. Have you? Maybe you can talk the scabs into working for free?

FYI, bomb-throwing, snark, and libertarian sloganeering is hardly a substantial contribution to the thread.

[PavePusher]

118. No-one was asking anyone to work for free.

You folks are the one upset that the church can't afford to pay union wages. The solution would seem to be either the union negotiate a lower rate, or the wailers like yourself help out of your pockets, or possibly a mixture of both.

But you've all been too busy beating up the church to see straight.

[superduperfarleft]

120. you know, i already had a decent discussion with someone in this thread with whom i disagree.

You on the other hand want to poison the debate with red herrings and subtle personal attacks, as opposed to entering this debate in good faith.

So, in closing, I have better things to do than indulge your need to get attention by being a contrarian dick. Good night. Go play with someone else.

[PavePusher]

152. So, rather than address the issue, you'll take your manufactured angst and go home. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

153. Yep. n/t

[fishwax]

142. forcing?

:crazy:

[Mariana]

177. Well, of course. Expressing disapproval equals force.

Surely you knew that.

[blondeatlast]

126. Pardon me, but a big...

:wtf:

[fishwax]

149. yeah, what's with the people opposing the union's right to choose to peacefully protest?

[Obamanaut]

15. Small church, small congregation, limited resources, using those limited

resources to get the most bang for the buck. Perhaps they've been spending all their extra church money on feeding the poor, housing the homeless, doing other good works - must now repair roof as cheaply as possible. Perhaps found a contractor who gave them a break on material, maybe relatives of congregants who are in construction doing the labor for free or very cheap. Lots of unanswered questions here. Not too much info in article at link.

[gratuitous]

17. Oh sure, get all that information and stuff

Look, knee-jerk reactions are cheap and satisfying. If we have to start finding out stuff, a situation might be slightly more complicated than it first appears, and who needs the headache of trying to figure things out? Better to just make a snarky little post and be done with it!

[readmoreoften]

18. There's so much speculative nonsense in your post I won't even bother.

Properly paid labor is more socially valuable than any church. It's union solidarity that stops us from having to eat out of church kitchen charity in the first place.

[Codeine]

28. Your lack of concern for the working men and women of America is noted.

Union-bashing sucks. Union-bashing by god-botherers sucks moreso.

[Obamanaut]

31. I would tend to believe anyone working on a roof is one of "...the

working men and women of America..."

[Codeine]

33. Yes you would.

That's the problem.

[Dreamer Tatum]

61. I'm not in a union. I work. Got a problem with that?

Explain to me what exactly the problem is?

[readmoreoften]

96. Not being unionized is not being a scab. It's just unfortunate.

As soon as you try to openly undercut union labor by working for less or giving up benefits, then you're a scab.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xithras]

52. Some people focus too heavily on the tree to see the forest.

About 20 years ago we had the local electrical union picketing my childhood church. Why? Because they'd built a community hall out back using entirely volunteer and donated labor and materials. None of the other local unions cared, but the electrical work in the building was done entirely gratis by a member of the congregation...ironically, a former member of the same electrical union.

I'll never forget Father Fitz walking out there and asking the guy with the bullhorn, "I'd love to let you boys wire the building, but my budget is zero, the materials are donated, and he's doing the work for free. Will you do the same?" The union guy just glared at him.

The following Sunday, the protesters were out there again, and the priest asked everyone in the church to think about the motivations of people who would take the time out of their days to protest against a volunteer project designed primarily to provide homeless people with a day shelter. He then gave a great sermon on giving, and how easy it is to let our personal needs obscure the requirements of the more needy around us.

The protesters were gone the next day. Apparently about half of the Catholics in the union, more than a hundred members total, called them up and said that they were quitting the union if they picketed the church again. A few days after that, the union sent a couple of those upset Catholic electricians over, and they helped the retired guy finish wiring the hall for free.

Union leaders are just people, and sometimes they make dumb choices. More often than not, the union members themselves have the power to put them in their place.

[NNN0LHI]

100. What was the name and location of your childhood church?

I would like to Google it and see what the real deal was for myself.

Don

[hughee99]

136. Yes, if this was a site that was being protested

union members shouldn't be doing free side-work for them.

[Xithras]

143. First....

...the pickets had been called off when the union members came in to do the work. Nobody crossed a line.

Second, it was the union itself that authorized the work.

Third, and most importantly: I've been a member of three different unions in my life, and all three have contributed to the community. It's good PR, and it's a way to give back.

That said, I actually have no idea if they were working "free". All I know is that the union sent them over, and that the church wasn't paying them. I hadn't really thought about it before, but it's entirely possible that someone else picked up the tab. The union itself might have picked their paychecks up. Who knows.

I like the "gratis" idea better though. There's nothing wrong with the idea of a charitable union.

[Xithras]

141. LOL! I hate to point this out...

...but there was no WWW in the late 80's (1988, if memory serves, but it might have been 1987). You're not going to find anything on Google. As I said, it was more than 20 years ago. I was a 14 year old kid in catechism at the time :)

I'll private message you the church name and location if you really want it, but I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Who knows, if you call them up you might find someone who was around 20+ years ago who can verify it. I couldn't point you to a specific person, though, because I haven't personally attended that (or any other) church since 1991.

I actually consider that story to be generally supportive of unions. According to the rumor mill back then, the whole thing was touched off by one parishioner who took the "Build Union or Don't Build It" viewpoint, and took a complaint to the union. In the end, it was the union itself that stepped up and helped to finish the building, at no charge to the church. The only "villain" was a local boss who let ideology get in the way of common sense. The "heroes" were the hardworking union members who did the right thing.

That wasn't intended to be an anti-union story. I'm a union member myself :)

[Ikonoklast]

197. And maybe they spent all their money picketing women's clinics.

Or soldier's funerals.

[kctim]

22. Hey Rev, INFLATABLE!

Not really a problem at all.
Pellet gun, wrist-rocket, knife.

[readmoreoften]

25. The union would just bring another and sue them for vandalism.

The rats are built to withstand attacks from the bosses.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

147. followed by the reverend's arrest and a lawsuit

:woohoo:

[readmoreoften]

23. They never like Scabby. The rat is way more effective than people even know.

[Bozita]

131. !

This thread is proof.

[Romulox]

27. These people should have a right to undercut workers in peace!

I mean, they're RELIGIOUS, which means they get held to a lower standard. Eh, right?

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. Sounds a lot like extortion to me

Unless I'm missing something. It looks for all the world like the message is, 'use union labor, or else.' Not seeing how the church should be compelled to use union labor. Also not seeing how calling anyone 'scab' helps matters.

Oh well. I guess I'm just being an American.

[superduperfarleft]

40. "Oh well. I guess I'm just being an American." You certainly are.

Especially since so many Americans are viciously anti-labor out of one side of their mouths but out of the other demand the numerous benefits and protections that were granted to us only because unions fought and died for them over the years.

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. You know what? Bull-fucking-shit. Here's why.

This isn't a case of Walmart crushing unions, or some mining company screwing workers out of security measures. This isn't some megacorporation trying to save half a cent on earnings three years from now.

This is a CHURCH that had a FIRE.

The union in this case has it EXACTLY BACKWARDS. They should be chipping in to help their local community, not pissing and moaning like infants because they didn't get what they wanted.

I get unions completely when healthcare, pensions, and security are on the line. When you fuck with something as tiny and one-off as a church, however, then you're just an asshole.

[superduperfarleft]

46. Unions are worthless if they let scab labor slide.

With all the anti-labor propaganda we've been fed over the past few decades, I don't blame them for feeling like they've been backed into a corner. It's not just about this church, it's about a pattern of undercutting the livelihoods of millions of people, and trying to strong-arm them into accepting the lowest common denominator.

And why are the scab roofers charging the church, or is it only the union members that are supposed to "help their community?" Why aren't the scabs working for free?

Anyway, I don't know where you're from, but this sort of thing is quite common in the Northeast. This would barely even get them a mention in Philly (I saw them out with the giant rat just last week, protesting a shopping center using scab roofers). Yeah, the unions can be a pain in the ass, but at the core, they're 100% in the right. They're using the only tools they have to protect their livelihood, and anyone else would do the same. Or maybe not, I don't know, maybe anti-labor DUers would be happy to take a pay cut for the good of their bosses.

[Codeine]

48. Folks don't get that EVERY TIME a union lets scab labor go unprotested

they weaken the power of the working man and woman a little more. Church, Wal*Mart, or school -- all the same.

[readmoreoften]

91. +1

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. Utterly reject that logic in this case.

One church. One roof.

[readmoreoften]

92. That's because you're anti-labor. You put churches above workers.

One university. One church. One school. One factory. One battle. One picket line. One scab.

You're either for organized labor or your not. You're either against gay-bashing or your not. You're either against discrimination in housing or your not. Some issues lack nuance, and those who look for nuance are equivocation artists and cheaters.

There is no "this one is okay..."

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlabamaLibrul]

185. Have you? Otherwise you can quit saying that five hundred times in the damn thread

Your anti-labor sentiments are really shining.

[PavePusher]

207. I'm not anti-labour.

I'm anti-beating-up-an-organisation-that-can't-afford-labor, without proposing viable alternatives/solutions.

For what it's worth, I think it would be rather nice for me to be able to have a union, but not very practicle for the active-duty military you see...

P.S. I'll keep asking the question until one of the teeth-gnashers answers it.

[NNN0LHI]

226. "equivocation artists"

Sums it about up. I never heard that one before. Sure won't forget it.

:thumbsup:

Solidarity!

Don

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. "Let scab labor slide" LET???

I think we think of unions differently. I think of them as a powerful and effective means to secure worker's rights. I think you think of them in a lot the same way as I think of the Mafia.

[superduperfarleft]

64. By "let," I am not advocating burning the damn church down.

By "let them slide," I mean by not protesting. But you knew that.

Furthermore, I'm not trying to twist your words in order to make them into something malevolent, even though we completely disagree, soplease afford me the same respect.

[Dreamer Tatum]

74. I think what sticks in my craw is the word 'scab.'

The people who are doing the job are exactly that - people. If unions want people to be sympathetic to their plight, they might spend less money on inflatable rats and more on PR. I think a PR INTERN could tell them to find someplace other than a fire-damaged church to protest, and to stop calling people trying to earn a buck 'scabs' just because they're not in the union.

[superduperfarleft]

77. Fair enough. I disagree that this was not a worthwhile protest, though. n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

79. I thought a scab was someone who knowingly crossed a picket line

NOT someone who just happens to NOT belong to a union.

I guess I was wrong. And I guess I'm a worthless scab, screwing it up for all the union folk who are trying to work. Who knew.

[leftstreet]

222. ...

Interesting that no one has responded to this

:shrug:

[readmoreoften]

87. A scab is someone who heals the cut made by organized labor.

You're damn straight I'm calling someone who interrupts a strike action for personal gain a scab. Do you think that only non-strikers have families, have mortgages or rents, have kids, have illnesses?

Scabbing is horrible and shameful act. If you're suffering, stand in solidarity with the union and take your plight to your union brethren.

[PavePusher]

111. For the love of fuck, put the goal posts down.

No-one is claiming the union should work for free. You're inventing shit out of whole cloth.

They have suggested that the union lower their rates (hey, here's an idea, maybe do some of that "negotiation" or "collective bargaining" shit they claim to espouse so much) to something the church can afford.

[readmoreoften]

62. It's not extortion. It's labor power. It's what kept the "middle class" in America existing for the

past 50 years and why we're all poor as crap now. It's called solidarity. You don't undercut union members who fought and struggled to give you a living wage. If you do you're a scab.

[Dreamer Tatum]

66. So, you have access to all the facts, then.

How much less did they pay this 'scab' labor? Was it not a fair, living wage?

Curious.

[readmoreoften]

86. Yes, I do have access to all the facts. Because I have been involved in many union struggles.

I have all the facts because I have read the human resource course textbooks that teach you how to union bust and it is always, always the same every single time.

It doesn't matter "how much less." The point is that it is outside of a negotiated contract. Union busters may even keep all the pay the same in order to bust the union, then they'll lower the wages in a year or so.

There is zero reason for not using organized labor. And there are many churches who would stand on that picket line to defend the strikers.

[Dreamer Tatum]

89. So, to recap, you have no freaking idea whatsoever.

Got it - just checking.

Once more - I like and support unions. When they're relevant. Claiming the well-being of the middle class and the viability of the working man depends on breaking the will of one fire-damaged church in Chicago? Yeah, that's a huge load of horseshit.

Wake me when they park the inflatable rat in the Bentonville, AR area.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

114. So, no facts in evidence. Got it. n/t

[Codeine]

67. Accepting this shit put us where we are today.

DU will bitch about the destruction of the middle class all day, but God forbid they should look at the root cause. When we broke the unions we broke the middle class.

Fuck anti-Labor "Democrats."

[blondeatlast]

128. "When we broke the unions we broke the middle class. " AB-SO-FUCKING-LUTELY.

If y'all hate union labor so much, move to Arizona, we have "Right to Work" laws.

You don't compete with the unions, you compete with off-the-books labor. Good luck (and we do have some powerful unions here despite, thank God!)

[Greyhound]

103. What an interesting take you have there...

Perhaps you would like to answer http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9589120&mesg_id=9593170">these questions?

[Cid_B]

119. The reason it sounds like that...

... is that it is extortion.

Use my guy to do your job and pay more or I am going to cause problems for you. Just that simple.

The incentive to use organized labor should be a unified standard of work and other benefits instead of a threat.

[fishwax]

145. sounds like you have a weird definition of extortion

[Mariana]

178. "Use union labor, or else" what?

Oh, right, we'll peacefully PICKET in front of your place! I'm sure the congregation and pastor are terrified.

Please.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

50. Oh no... bad thugs protesting... I expect that rhetoric from anti-working class right wingers

or from rich wimps who never have to depend on their equals for support to get paid a living wage. DETACHED

WTF is going on around here????

[Binka]

55. Troll infested thread n/t

[Codeine]

63. There's a very strong sentiment against those who work physically for a living here.

It's a disgusting tendency.

[superduperfarleft]

69. The left as a whole is guilty of that, not just the Democratic Party.

Far too often, the focus is on forcibly organizing the "Ignorant" Blue Collar Huddled Masses (tm) to do what we think is best for them, as opposed to providing or empowering them with the tools and the knowledge to advocate for themselves. Kind of like the complete lack of nuance in discussing the teabaggers.

There's a reason why the stereotype of a latte liberal isn't all that inaccurate sometimes.

[Codeine]

78. This is altogether too true. nt

[readmoreoften]

81. It's a general anti-labor trend all together. Doesn't matter the color of the collar.

If you're a white collar worker and you strike, you're parodied as a "middle-class complainer who should spend their time helping the poor"--even if you're making 18K a year as a copyeditor and you have no health insurance.

If you're a barista, you're identified with the product you sell "Oh, now the latte-sipping liberals are on strike." Or you're "youth" "All these uppity barista college students are just on strike so they can buy new iPads. They're not 'real workers' who have a family..."

And then of course if you're a "real worker with a family" (code for 'blue collar' labor) then your strike is oppressing the downtrodden scabs. You're probably even accused of being anti-immigrant--even if your union is pro-immigrant and you have immigrants on your picket line and the scabs aren't immigrants. The irony is, those so-called liberals who rail at you for being anti-immigrant for being anti-scab are often totally anti-immigrant as well.

Anti-union Democrats are nothing but yesterday's Republicans in new clothing.

[readmoreoften]

70. It's not like they support teachers unions either. There's a strong sentiment against anyone

who doesn't use the Democratic Party as their sole organ of struggle. Everything is supposed to pass through the impasse of the Democratic Party organ. It's bullshit phony liberal "pity" for scabs, who are fantasy creatures of sorrow and woe, mixed with adoration of "reasonableness" in the Jon Stewart rally sense.

And its destroying the US.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Do you want the cliffs notes, or the really long version?

Suffice it to say it really did not start with Reagan. He just found very fertile soil.

[fascisthunter]

112. Nah...

I need to take a little breather... I'm really pissed off that we even argue about this on a democratic site. I expect this shit on Craigslist...

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Oh I agree

but there is this little question about why class consciousness never developed here... we are not the first, or I fear last, to ask that... and it is the same answer.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

133. I don't presume to define what a "good" Democrat is, but I will say this much:

IMHO, you cna't be a "good" Democrat and be anti-Union. Maybe it comes from coming of age in the Reagan era, but I was raised by a white-collar union father and mother (AFSCME) and grandfather who risked much in a railway strike. I've disagreed with several of the Union brothers and sister in this thread on several non-labor issues--but they remain my idea of what the Party should be about.

Full disclosure--I DO drive a well-used 1999 Camry and cannot afford to replace it right now--but fully supported, and I am DAMN glad that GM got relief.

Anti-Union and Democrat? It makes my head hurt (and I apologize for the car; I hope to buy new (for the very first time)--and Union--next year when my situation should improve.

[superduperfarleft]

138. Many "good Democrats" on this site are unaware that political struggle existed in this country

before the Iraq War. You see the same thing with people being completely ignorant as to why people would be upset that Daddy Bush was awarded a Medal of Freedom or whatever worthless name it's called.

I'm not that old myself, but seriously, sometimes it's like arguing with a bunch of teenagers on this site.

[NNN0LHI]

139. Have I told you lately that I loved you blondeatlast?

:loveya:

Solidarity is the only thing that is going to get us out of this mess we are in. Government isn't going to do it. We have to do it ourselves.

Don

[blondeatlast]

140. Backatcha!

:hug:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

146. Do you mean "overall" or "at all"?

What do you mean by "anti-union"?

I think it's a term that could cover anything from "is opposed to unions as a matter of prinicple" - in which case I agree that it's hard to see who someone who fits that definition belongs in the Democratic party, but very few people and no-one on this thread do - to "disagrees with some of the positions adopted by some unions" - in which case I suspect almost everyone is anti-union to at least some extent.

[PavePusher]

174. Hey there, mister....!

We'll have none of that new-fangled rationality around here, thank you very much!

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Well there are days I think Reagan won

but then again I realize, he had pretty fertile ground...

And Americans don't remember last week, you expect them to remember the long struggle of labor?

Hell, pilots are FIGHTING to keep the EIGHT FRICKING HOUR DAY!!!!

And all these people will be fighting to keep the ten hour day, if they keep ignoring the obvious.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

132. I have seen one of those inflatable rats.

In New York City at Xmas of 2003.

The workers were protesting at a seafood restaurant. I walked thru the picketers with a thumbs up.

I like Scabby! I didn't know he had a name.

As the daughter of a union organizer, "scab" was a dirty four letter word at our house.

[Rochester]

134. My union has a rat costume

which comes out from time to time. I've never worn it but I guess my turn might come eventually. I'm not sure if we have an inflatable rat or not.

[mitchtv]

164. is this a Democratic website?

what a crying shame, it's infested

[blondeatlast]

135. Dear Reverend--I presume that you presume to speak for Jesus, who was a carpenter, of course.

My guess is that your Saviour would not cross a picket line--but he might suggest that you read Matthew regarding hypocrites and the moneylenders.

[wickerwoman]

144. "Work and pray. Live on hay. You'll get pie in the sky when you die."

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Forkboy]

148. A sad fucking thread indeed.

[Canuckistanian]

154. Indeed.

It's hard to know where to start with some people.

[Dreamer Tatum]

159. Just to clarify: if you are not in a union, you're a scab who is stealing from a union member.

That seems to be the prevailing attitude here, which is pretty damn surprising.

To that I say, I am extremely proud to be a scab.

[superduperfarleft]

168. I'm white collar, non-union, and work in the fucking health insurance industry.

And even I can call a scab a scab.

This victim costume doesn't suit you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

184. Then you're a scab, evil, part of the problem, and a hypocrite

Remember the threads that were dripping with glee over mortgage company employees losing their jobs because they were footsoldiers of evil?

Well...what makes you different? Your intentions? Um, yeah.

[superduperfarleft]

190. Really, dude? I thought we'd already addressed this.

"Remember the threads that were dripping with glee over mortgage company employees losing their jobs because they were footsoldiers of evil?"
No, I don't. I certainly didn't participate in them. So why bring them up when talking to me? What does that have to do with me at all?

"Then you're a scab, evil, part of the problem, and a hypocrite."
Strawman, strawman, strawman. The definition of "scab" has already been explained to you multiple times, and yet you'd rather act like some poor put-upon victim rather than actually have a substantial conversation with someone.

It's like arguing with a bunch of petulant fucking three-year-olds.

[Bozita]

161. I *heart* Scabby the Rat. His owners pay taxes for govt, schools, roads, etc.

How 'bout that new church in Joliet?

[Dreamer Tatum]

165. Yeah...nonunion labor just loves that tax-free income, don't you know.

:eyes:

[Bozita]

176. Looks to me like a full day's work in just this one thread

Do you get healthcare?

[Dreamer Tatum]

183. I have excellent healthcare. thanks nt

[superduperfarleft]

192. Do you? Thank a union member. n/t

[blondeatlast]

205. and for his vacation time, overtime, long term disability, workplace safety... nt

[Ikonoklast]

210. Actually, the government is going after them hard with the new 1099 requirements.

Non-union contractors in the building trades are notorious for not classifying their employees correctly, and were calling them all 'sub-contractor' and 1099'ing them to AVOID PAYING TAXES.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

162. Well, this went well.

Looks like things haven't changed much in a few centuries. The only question that really matters is "Which side are you on?". The ruling class arguments in this thread could have been ripped straight out of the beginning of the industrial age, probably before. Too bad for them, there are always more workers than bosses.

[PavePusher]

169. "ruling class arguments"? Seriously?

This was about a church that can't afford union labor, and a few people who thought they should be forced into it anyway, while offering no financial solutions on how to do so.

"ruling class", indeed.

:eyes: :puke:

[Starry Messenger]

188. lol

Yes, ruling class arguments. Like yours I meant. This same church will be all pious about feeding people out of work, but will not acknowledge its own role in depressing wages and throwing employment into jeopardy. People need work. Churches are simply marvelous at finding money for the most absurd things that are far less important. I'm sure if they cared, they could squeeze a little more out of some patron for proper wages for union labor. Barf yourself.

[PavePusher]

194. You have evidence that this church fits your canard?

There have been a lot of assumptions and assertions about this church, but remarkably, no actual data.

[Starry Messenger]

199. You have evidence that it fits yours?

I looked up the median income of Joliet. It is over $60,000. Home payments average $500-600 a month. I assume living expenses are not exorbitant. Protestant christian denominations rely on fundraising from their members.

There is money there if they shake that tree a little.

edit, links: http://www.city-data.com/city/Joliet-Illinois.html


http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Joliet-IL/

[PavePusher]

202. No, I have no info on the area, aside from what you just provided (and thanks!).

But I'm also not running all over this topic making assumptions and assertions like a few others have been.

"Median income", "There is money there if they shake that tree a little."; are the members of this church in that group? Or are they clustered at the lower-income end of the local bell curve? The original article mentioned older congregation and a small church of limited means, which would tend to indicate fixed incomes and retirees. That is not definitive proof, but it fits the available evidence.

You have provided additional evidence, but it does not appear to be definitive proof either. There is still way to much information missing for a lot of the folks in this debate to justify their declarations. That's the only position I've taken here, that those who state a claim must back it up with facts. That is the standard of rational debate, whether the topic is unions, particle physics or kittens.

[Starry Messenger]

203. Fighting scab labor is a social issue that affects all levels of society.

People on the lower end of the income scale have just a vested interest in using union labor as anyone else. I'm not going to produce an income report on the neighborhood around the church, that is beyond any burden of proof needed for something as informal as a debate forum. If you want to find reports, you can find links. Still it doesn't hit at even more root issues.


Roofing is seasonal work that requires skilled labor. It is a punishment to labor to use non-union labor in a time where there is a job to do. Nothing happens in isolation. It costs more over time to have to spend more on charity outlay to feed people who don't have jobs. The church is in the business of doing charity work, I looked them up and read one of their newsletters. As has been pointed out, the non-union roofers could join the union and organize with them for contract work. Why don't they? There are many complicated questions here. At the very basic, you get what you pay for is also a truism. Scab labor produces scab products. What seems cheaper now could be very expensive later on, to fix shoddy workmanship.

[PavePusher]

204. Sorry, union labor is not a guarantee of quailty results.

Nor is "scab" labor a fixed indicator of non-quality product.

Charity work often doesn't indicate cash collection. Volunteer labor (oops!), rummage sales, donations of spare clothing/furniture/appliances, all this may make a church "rich" in charity, but still be poor in cash. You didn't provide any examples of what they do/give, so no judgement is possible.

As a side note, it would help to drop the derogatory term "scab". If you flung epithets like that around in any other topic, you'd be verbally flayed in short order.

[Starry Messenger]

206. Sorry, you are the one making the claims, burden of proof is on you.

The google is your friend. You got up in my face with this subthread, and I'm done here. I've done all the homework I'm going to do for you. "Scab" is the proper term. You don't like it because you are anti-union labor and into the "free market" as you stated yesterday. That kind of libertarian "freedom" is popular with Von Mises and the Austrian crowd, but cuts no ice with me, friendo. That kind of "freedom" is freedom to "choose" your underpaying masters in the labor market. It's been true since the breaking up of the guilds. There are no neutrals there.

[PavePusher]

208. Umm, no, I made no claims.

I asked for others to back up theirs.

I'm not anti-labor. I'm anti-abusing-a-position-of-power-and-responsibility, and anti-being-a-bully. I'm not sure how I can make that more clear.

The rest of your diatribe is remarkable by claiming to be about freedom by being... anti-freedom. Interesting, but unproductive.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. I need to finish healing up my busted wrist so I can do some more volunteer work in my local community. I suggest people in the area of this church look into finding a solution, rather than squabbling like kids in a sandbox. Good day to all of you.

[leftstreet]

163. What an unattractive thread

Glad I missed most of it

IBTL

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

181. So at what point does your average home handyman become a scab?

I am helping a colleague install a hardwood floor this weekend, are we scabs?

[Dreamer Tatum]

186. We are actually born scabs. Joining a union is the only acceptable act of contrition.

I wish that was pure snark, but sadly, it's the attitude of many.

But back to you: yes, you are a scab.

[Scruffy1]

189. Nice one LOL

[superduperfarleft]

191. "I wish that was pure snark, but sadly, it's the attitude of many. "

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TZev3hP-ryY/Sd99sXfSLMI/AAAAAAAAPCo/0iTQcSZLVzE/s320/Passion+of+The+Christ.jpg

And I thought our conversation was going so well...

[FooshIt]

225. there are so many sub humans

join or die right

[WinkyDink]

214. UNIONS and UNION DEATHS brought us.....

decent wages, the 40-hour week, pensions, job security without due cause for dismissal, BATHROOM BREAKS (which are not in ANY Federal law, e.g.), health insurance, CHILD LABOR LAWS, etc.
ALL labor has is its "muscle"; management/ownership has the money and means of production. Labor, therefore, must use what it has, because TPTB sure enough do.

So fine, this is a teeny-tiny church impoverished by giving its last mite to the poor. But I don't think so. I think it might be a church leaning Republican. "Oh, gosh, that's not who we are." No nod, no acknowledgment whatsoever of the STRUGGLE in this nation of American men and women for living wages?
"Oh, gosh." Cry me a river, Rev.

~~~Coal-miner's daughter from Molly Maguire Land.

[Dreamer Tatum]

216. Perspective and proportion: I encourage you to look into each. nt

[NNN0LHI]

218. I would bet money the poster you are adressing has more perspective and proportion in her ...

... finger than you ever dreamed of having in your entire body.

I have known her a long time. Some things her and I have agreed on. Other subjects we have not. Regardless she has earned my respect and admiration over many years. Can't say the same about you.

Don

[Dreamer Tatum]

219. I don't have the respect of someone who sees no difference between Walmart and a church?

Awwww, shucks. Again, wake me when you guys decide to break your pick on Walmart. Until then, excuse my dry popcorn farts at your outrage over a single church roof.

[lunatica]

224. Is that Joliet, Illinois? It's as ugly as a rat, or was in the early 1970s.