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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:11 PM
Original message
Where do you draw the line in sand?
I know I am about to get pummeled here on DU. Hell, maybe I'll even delete this post if I can't take it. Not because I'm a wimp, but I don't know if I want to get all bloodied in a fight by defending the TSA. I'd rather fight for something I REAAALLLY believe in. Still...here I go, into the jaws of hell...I guess somebody's gotta do it.

My husband used to work with homeland security. He would investigate various security technologies and whether they were feasible to implement on a large scale in airports across the country. During that time, he had access to all kinds of technology, and he is truly one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject of airport security. Although he played no hand in the implementation of scanners, he knows a lot about the subject. He also knows quite a bit about the kinds of problems the TSA has faced since 9/11.

Let me add, my husband flies all the time all over the country. Being in airports and on airplanes is a necessity for his job. He once told me, if people knew all that he knows about the potential dangers of flying, then no one would ever get on a plane. I asked him to elaborate and he declined. He knows I already have a terrible phobia of flying as it is. I am not only terrified of mechanical problems occurring, but I am also afraid of the myriad ways a person could blow up a plane. So, in the interest of disclosure, let me say...when I see scanners and metal detectors and pat-downs...I'm okay with that.

Lately, however, I have seen a rash of reports in the news and the blogosphere pertaining to the "invasive, violating" nature of TSA pat-downs and scanning machines. I've seen it all lately: from a news broadcast of a tired, screaming 3-year-old getting a pat-down from a TSA agent, to the gut-wrenching story of a cancer survivor who had to expose her prosthetic breast to agents. Both liberals and conservatives have used such stories to prove that we are finally, truly a police state...Whoa! Wait a second. There is so much wrong with this narrative...where to start?

First of all, let's begin at the beginning: security. The primary goal of those who work in aviation security is to ensure the safety of the people on planes and in airports, as well as the prevention of another 9-11 scenario, in which airplanes could be used to target national landmards with widespread death and destruction. This is undoubtedly a daunting task.

My husband has met and worked with the experts in our homeland security labs. He stresses that these are dedicated individuals who take the safety of our transportation systems very seriously. They are not vindictive souls out to get us. The knowledge they gain from their work enables them to calculate exactly the amount of material necessary to bring down a plane. They know all various methods of concealment, and they must be willing to envision all possible attack scenarios - no matter how wild or inconceivable it may appear on first glance. Their knowledge is not broadcast to the general public for obvious reasons; but, it is shared with the TSA. In other words, TSA officials are trained to recognize the EXACT volume required to bring down a plane. It is a frightfully small amount.

So, let's talk about the body scanners... Prior to the installment of these scanners, there was NO reliable method of detecting plastic explosives (or ceramic knives or guns for that matter) on a person's body. The amount of explosives required is so small, that it could easily be hidden and remain undetected. If a woman has a prosthetic breast, and the space of that breast is equivalent to the space needed to hide explosives, what would you do? Would you demand to explore the area in question with more precision, or would you allow the woman to board a plane with scores, perhaps hundreds, of other people and assume she is a cancer survivor and nothing more. Most likely, she is the latter. But it is the job of the agent to be certain. Now, one could argue that such a scenario goes too far. She should not have to expose her prosthetic; nor should anyone with any prothetics need to have them further examined, for that matter. But if that is line which the public wants to draw in the sand, then it is necessary to be willing to live with the possible risk. If a terrorist knows, I can hide my explosives in my prothetic limb or breast or whatever, then we as a people must be willing to accept planes possibly blowing up. Period. This is a very bitter truth.

In other words: Security or not? The majority of the public is willing to accept the inconvenience (or, at times even, the humiliation) caused by airport security. But, if the methods adapted for security purposes become too invasive, then perhaps we must be willing to say, “I am willing to accept the increased probability that another plane will come down, even if I or a loved one may be in that plane”. Are we at that point?

This brings me to the second part of my post. I believe there is a much larger issue concerning all of the recent negative press aimed at the TSA. We, as liberals, need to be careful how we allow this debate to be framed. It is one thing to say, I am all for security, but I do not wish to live in a country in which a government agency imposes such scrutiny on the people that a woman must expose her prosthetic breast, or that a TSA agent can see a nude image of my body, or that my child be subjected to pat-downs while throwing a tantrum. I am willing to live with the risk, and the TSA has gone too far. That's one thing. However, we all know the Republicans want to limit the size of the federal government -- including the TSA. So the question becomes, do you want to see the TSA get replaced with private security firms? Because, if we continue to allow the debate to be framed by conservatives, what we will have in the end could be much more expensive and with much less oversight.

(On the subject of TSA personnel: After 9-11, the TSA had severe problems with their personnel. They could not find quality workers willing to do the job for $14.00 an hour. Would you want to pat down people all day for that? In order to hire a higher caliber of worker within their budget, it was necessary for TSA to offer the employees incentive. It was decided to offer TSA employees the same career path as a border patrol agent. In other words, it was no longer a dead-end job, but rather one with a possible career path. Through that, the TSA was able to hire a whole new quality of worker and keep them. A private company would not be able to make that same offer.)

Let's be careful how we approach this. If we continue to shout accusations of "police state" and "violating" and "invasive" and such, we may be aiding and abetting the demise of one of our federal agencies. Are you ready for that?

Okay. Throw your punches.


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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think 14 bucks an hour is WAY too much to pay someone who will "follow orders" and
feel up strangers. You will never ever convince me that people who will do that are not perverts.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's fine. But the problem hasn't been solved.
Are you saying there should be no security measures? Find the solution.
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Basic metal detectors and well trained observers of body language plus profiling.
That's the answer.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Ann Coulter was pushing profiling on TV the other day.
Metal detectors and observers will not catch ceramics and plastic explosives.
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The Israelis do it with one hundred percent effectiveness
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 07:41 PM by haifa lootin
so far. Not that it's a forever guarantee but it works as well as any other bright idea.


edit to add, I think Ann Coulter is an ignorant bitch but she might occasionally be right about something.
shrug
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They have an average of 50 planes flying in and out of their country a day.
We have 2400.
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Actually we have more like 3500 (in and out) but so what? It's just a scale factor
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 07:55 PM by haifa lootin
so we need like 60 times as many inspectors as they do...we have that many more to recruit from. Unless you're claiming our labor pool is vastly inferior to theirs, you haven't shown why it couldn't work here too.

edited a typo sorry
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Ann Coulter is in full agreement with you. n/t
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. That's great, it shows she has the capacity to learn.
...
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Up until now they were doing pat downs that did not involve
patting crotches.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Exactly. That ties into my second point.
Why is there so much attention on this recently? Why is this getting so much press NOW? First of all, improper pat-downs were probably on a small percentage always happening. So why is it now the narrative?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Actually this is a new style pat down.
That's why it's getting attention.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I haven't heard that. Do you have a link?
That may be where people draw the line. My question is WHY they have changed their methods. What do they know that we do not know? Should we know so that we understand the security issues better?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Sure.
"The new procedures, put into place last week at airports nationwide, require screeners to slide their hands over a passenger's body, including breasts and genitals."
http://www.newsfirst5.com/news/new-tsa-pat-down-policy-makes-some-passengers-uncomfortable/
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thank you for the link. I had not seen that.
Once again, though, LisaL, the question becomes one of where do we want to draw the line in the sand? These pat-downs are for reasons of security. Are we willing to live with the increased probable risk of allowing planes to blow up because we do not want these invasive pat-downs implemented? It's a question we have to be able to answer.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. These pat downs have nothing to do with security. Patting down my
teenage daughter or my 87 year old mother makes no one safer. It's stupid and it violates people's rights under the fourth amendment. Or perhaps you think of the Constitution as some quaint document that no one need pay attention to.

We should be putting our money into intelligence. The US was warned about the underwear bomber but he was able to board the plane anyway. Clearly there are gaps in that aspect of the system. We should also be training and hiring personnel of the caliber of those who work security in Israel. We have the wherewithal. We apparently lack the will. Those people should be stationed at our airports questioning passengers, ferreting out suspicious persons, and leaving the general public the hell alone to go about their business.

We waste our money on potentially cancer-causing machines that do little but line the pockets of lackeys like that asshole Michael Chertoff who'll never be irradiated because hell would freeze over before he'd fly commercial anyway. Speaking of which Boehner flew commercial today, and he was escorted around TSA. So apparently being rich and well connected gets people a pass from the nude-o-scopes and gropings.

The entire stinking system is corrupt and massive changes are in order.

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Celtic Raven Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. I know you weren't addressing me, but
by your reasoning, cavity searches will be justified with the same question -- are we going to risk planes being blown up to avoid more invasive security procedures?

I don't know where your line in the sand is, but we've drawn ours and won't be moving beyond it if the only option is to fly. We're simply not flying.

I've already informed the airlines where we have FF Miles that we no longer require their services.

YMMV

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Celtic Raven Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Here's your link
from the official TSA site:

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/102810_patdown.shtm

TSA Statement on New Pat-down Procedures

News & Happenings

October 28, 2010

"TSA is in the process of implementing new pat-down procedures at checkpoints nationwide as one of our many layers of security to keep the traveling public safe. Pat-downs are one important tool to help TSA detect hidden and dangerous items such as explosives. Passengers should continue to expect an unpredictable mix of security layers that include explosives trace detection, advanced imaging technology, canine teams, among others."


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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. For what we are getting with TSA, it is costing us too much
Not to say those people who are just doing their jobs don't deserve $14/hr that or more for the job they have to do. $14/hr = $28,000/yr. That is not an easy life.

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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Would you rather hand it over to private security companies?
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 07:46 PM by FourScore
Even if you do, you will still pay for it.
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'd rather let the airlines handle it however they want.
There's no good rational reason for the government to be the overseer of airplane travel any more than it ought to micromanage road traffic...it's just that they assumed the right to do it way back when nobody thought air travel would ever be feasible. Give them an inch...you know the rest. If safety REALLY is that big a deal, why isn't there a Federal Automotive Administration that sticks its nose into every vehicle's movement (you can bet your bippy some bureaucrats would love to have that power).

Why aren't there Federal perverts at every highway intersection to stop and feel up motorists to make sure they're not
hauling nail clippers or ANFO bombs? I rented a truck just like the one McVeigh used, just a few weeks ago; nobody said boo (nor should they.)

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Got libertarian fantasy?
:rofl:
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.
Sorry.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's your story, and...
... you're sticking to it.

:rofl:
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Could I perhaps buy some of whatever you're smoking?
I have Paypal...
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Like I said, you're sticking to it.
:rofl:
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Privatization is short for cronies will get rich quick scheme.
There are better ways. Profiling works better, a short interview of passengers as they arrive at the airport and are checking in should reveal nervous passengers who could be singled out for further questioning and possible searches but what we have now is equal to a police state.

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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. So what you are saying is that you are willing to accept the probable risk
of a plane blowing up. I think many people will ultimately agree with you. I don't mind the body imaging at all. I couldn't give a hoot. I'd rather walk through an imaging machine than be on a plane with someone who has smuggled explosives.
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. And your sense of security will be intact in spite of the fact that most of the luggage down
in the belly of the plane has had no scrutiny. You must be a very devout believer in some kind of benevolent deity.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. The system we currently provides a false sense of security
There is absolutely no consistency from airport to airport or in some cases even at the same airport.

I can walk through some airport security systems and leave my 3oz's of shit in the quart baggie in my bag while others I have to put it in its own tub. Some you put all your stuff in one tub and others a different tub for each item. Belts and shoes are removed some places and not others and with the scanners, some you have to remove everything from your pockets while others not a problem.

If the was a real concern, there would be exact procedures at every location, no exceptions. Israel uses profiling and is very strict with the profilers with zero tolerance for errors.

Have you heard of any incidents at Israeli airports? And that is a country that is much more hated by terrorist than the US.

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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. You are absolutely right about the inconsistency of the airports.
My husband and I just had a conversation about that today. As I understand, it is a long-term plan to implement safety measures, so there will be inconsistencies.

Also, Isreal only has about 50 flights per day. It is no comparison to air traffic in America.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Since you are so concerned about any possible risks,
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 08:26 PM by LisaL
what do you know about the safety of x-ray imaging machines?

"Their letter to Holdren said "it appears that real independent safety data do not exist." In addition, the authors say: "There has not been sufficient review of the intermediate and long-term effects of radiation exposure associated with airport scanners. There is good reason to believe that these scanners will increase the risk of cancer to children and other vulnerable populations.""

Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20022541-281.html#ixzz15mH5VXxT
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veganlush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree.
A prosthetic limb or whatever could conceal an awful lot of explosive material. How many of the same people who are complaining now will be screaming for Obama's hide if another underwear bomber get through? I think some, but not all of this uproar comes from those people like Ann Coulter who can't believe this is happening to white people. They want to know why these pat downs and such aren't just reserved for Arab-looking people. I do understand that these intrusive measures are upsetting to people but they shouldn't be blaming the TSA workers, and they should be honest with themselves about how they'll feel if they lose a loved one to another underwear bomber that goes undetected.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. How much explosives do you think one can fit into a cargo baggage?
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veganlush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
44. yeah, that too. good point.
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. I travel a fair amount...USA Australia. Being felt up or whatever does not bother me in the least.
I mean, come on...if you can't take a little discomfort once in a while, go hide under the bed.
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. Take the train or a bus.
No one gives a shit if the terrorists blow up the poor.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Have you actually taken a train or a bus?
How do you know the same procedures won't be implemented?
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haifa lootin Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. It costs twice as much to ride Amtrak as on a plane.
If you can even find one that's going your way...
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
35. "TSA was able to hire a whole new quality of worker and keep them."
Could you explain where these quality workers are being hidden? They sure aren't evident at the airport. No insult intended for your husband, as I'm sure he's a good guy, but the tsa personnel I've encountered at the airport screening areas have more often than not been morons.

As far as getting rid of this particular federal agency, when can we start? Seriously, it needs to be rethought.

Olbermann had on an Israeli security expert the other night who calmly explained that the tsa's entire approach to security is wrong. It's reactive rather than proactive. Some would-be terrorist tries to set a shoe bomb off so we all have to take our shoes off. Some other guy sticks something in his underwear, so little old ladies have to be groped. His take was that it's all meaningless theatre and not real security. We need to start getting smarter about how we handle security and do it efficiently and without sacrificing our Constitutional rights.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. Planes could possibly blow up either way.
I don't feel any safer with these scanner/groper methods than I did before. My line falls where our rights as human beings and American citizens, and I think it's possible to enact policies that follow that line and keep us safe. It's been done in the past. I don't think it's possible to ensure 100% absolute safety. No one can do that. If anyone expects that, than they're being unreasonable. Flying by its very nature cannot be 100% safe.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
39. The stories we hear are outrageous, but they are NOT the problem. The problem is having TSA at all.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. You put a lot of effort into this post
Just some questions.

Does the government know how many terrorists there are in the world??
How long will it take to catch or kill them all??
If they do not have the answers to these questions, then this will be with us
until we travel no more.
I am one of those that is not afraid of terrorists. If they want me, there is not much I can do about it.
I do not want the TSA to be replaced with a private firm. That is not getting smaller government, just
shifting employees.
In my travels I have noticed that I could have shut down numerous airline terminals without getting near security
check points. And no, I am not a bomber, just someone with a mind that places myself in others' thought patterns.
Unless we are willing to kill all the terrorists in the world we have lost our freedoms.
The only other way is to stop our wars, close most of our bases, bring the troops home, prosecute our war criminals,
stop trying to rule the world with force and subterfuge(CIA), sit down with the countries that we are trying to control.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
42. I draw the line when there are far less stupid alternatives.
All this money on scanners, outrage over what they see on them...and the groping. It would take 3 seconds for a trained dog to sniff each person. It takes longer than that to empty pockets and get wanded. But then, folks would be far less on edge. Far less scared. This isn't about security. Shit, that Christmas bomber has that name for a reason. It was 11 fucking months ago, and the pat downs just started. What idiot buys into that? This is, again, not about security. It's about fear.

Stay afraid America. It pleases the terrorists to no end.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. Between September 12, 2001 and the introduction of these scanners and "grope style" searches,
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 08:32 PM by benEzra
I believe the number of people killed by bombs on aircraft in the USA, entering the USA, and departing the USA was zero. None. Zilch. Without the scanners, and without the groping.

As Bruce Schneier has repeatedly pointed out, the single biggest improvement to airline security post-9/11 was hardening the cockpit against intrusion from the cabin.

Some good reading on this issue, and the broader one:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/tsa_backscatter.html
http://www.schneier.com/essay-096.html
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