TSA Agents Absolutely Hate New Pat Downs, Find Them Disgusting And Morale Breaking

[Liberal_in_LA]

TSA Agents Absolutely Hate New Pat Downs, Find Them Disgusting And Morale Breaking

from the this-is-what-you-get-with-security-theater dept

One of the common themes that people keep mentioning in talking about the new TSA pat down procedures is that those involved must "enjoy" the groping they're giving people. But, of course, most TSA agents are normal every day people who don't actually want to grope random people. Chris Tolles points us to a post from BoardingArea.com, who reached out to some TSA agents and found that many TSA agents hate the new rules and find it to be sapping morale to have to grope passengers. Some of it appears to be the verbal abuse they're getting from travelers, but some of it is just the fact that they have to keep touching people they'd rather not touch in that way:

"It is not comfortable to come to work knowing full well that my hands will be feeling another man’s private parts, their butt, their inner thigh. Even worse is having to try and feel inside the flab rolls of obese passengers and we seem to get a lot of obese passengers!"

Of course, it does seem like a lot of the "morale" part comes from everyone accusing them of molesting them. I recognize, they're not the ones making policy, but many of the people being groped do feel violated and it's not surprising that many of them speak out.

"Molester, pervert, disgusting, an embarrassment, creep. These are all words I have heard today at work describing me, said in my presence as I patted passengers down. These comments are painful and demoralizing, one day is bad enough, but I have to come back tomorrow, the next day and the day after that to keep hearing these comments. If something doesn’t change in the next two weeks I don’t know how much longer I can withstand this taunting. I go home and I cry. I am serving my country, I should not have to go home and cry after a day of honorably serving my country."

This is going to be a serious problem for the TSA if it doesn't figure out something quick. So far, the TSA seems to be in near absolute denial that this is actually a problem, but if these TSA responses are indicative of how most TSA agents feel, there are going to be a lot fewer security people at airports very, very soon.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101119/10225611947/tsa-agents-absolutely-hate-new-pat-downs-find-them-disgusting-morale-breaking.shtml

[sufrommich]

1. I feel sorry for them. What a depressing job. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. worst than being a meter maid

[sabrina 1]

49. I don't. They could organize and go on strike. The minute I was told

to do this, I would have talked to other colleagues and if they felt the same way, asked them to sign a petition threatening to quit unless these disgusting and useless practices stopped. And if no one else agreed, I would simply quit.

They seem more concerned about hearing the truth from passengers than about the morality of participating in the destruction of people's rights. I'll sympathize with those who stop whining and do something worthy of respect, like refusing to follow orders that disrespect our Constitution and citizens.

[lostnfound]

61. You obviously escaped the great attempts to pacify you in your youth

Most are lulled into complacency and blind obedience to authority. They lose their ability to act without instruction. It's intentional.

[sabrina 1]

73. I guess so. I remember learning about brave people who

were willing to die rather than live in fear or on their knees. This whole country seems to be on its knees and still unwilling to do anything about it. I wonder what it will take. I guess the powers that exploit are still testing and must be surprised at how easy it has been. I'm sure they were a bit concerned initially, but it's been smooth sailing for them, every step they've taken towards the complete destruction of the Constitutional rights of Americans. Hardly a whisper has been heard, in fact we're more likely to see explanations and excuses.

You are probably right, people need someone to lead them. We don't have any leaders on the side of what is right.

[jberryhill]

74. Perhaps you had not heard

That they were granted permission to organize by the flra last week.

This allows union representation, but I am not sure whether you know they can't strike. They are federal employees.

[sabrina 1]

95. No, I did not know that, about the permission to organize. Do you have

a link?

[jberryhill]

141. Link

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/laborprof_blog/2010/11/flra-allows-tsa-officers-to-vote-on-union.html

Interesting timing

[WinkyDink]

81. "threaten to quit"?! The response would be "See ya!" You DO know about the unemployed millions?

[sabrina 1]

94. Yes, and what does that have to do with doing what is right?

To preserve Democracy, people have been asked to give their lives. We constantly celebrate these people. Now, it's too much to ask that someone quit a job? It's not unheard of for people of principle to walk away from a job that demands them to engage in unethical behavior is it? It has been done before. I guess all those glorious pledges, 'it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees' etc. ARE just rhetoric after all. If America's priorities involve keeping a job no matter what unethical behavior that job entails, the government will have no problem finishing the job of destroying whatever rights are left at this point. All they have to do is threaten the loss of a job. Who would have thought democracy would die so easily?

[howmad1]

105. Oh really. Threaten to quit?

Seems air traffic controllers tried that during the Reagan administration. Every one of them lost their jobs. Given the current unemployment situatiuon, there would probably be thousands lining up to replace those striking TSA folks.

[sabrina 1]

108. Well, if a job is more important than the destruction of

the Constitutional rights of the entire country, then you'd have a point.

The PTBs count on hard times to push their totalitarian policies. It would be nice if we let them know that ethics and rights do matter, more than jobs, even more than life in many cases. I would rather see people lose a job, than keep destroying this country's democracy until the choice is lives.

I know I would quit, have done so before, and no, it is not easy, but pushing back totalitarianism never is. And this is how it gains a foothold. People making excuses for not taking action while there is still time.

[sabrina 1]

161. In your opinion then, it is more important to keep a shitty job

which makes you complicit in destroying even more of our Constitutional rights, than to stand up for those rights? I have a feeling that the first person who does this, and who does for those reasons, will become a national hero and will end up with a better job. That person will also be an example to others and a real threat to the totalitarians who have already caved to Pilots because when a few of them took a leave of absence without pay rather than subject themselves to these abusive practices, others joined them. They are now exempt from being subjected to the porno machines or love pats.

It's amazing what a little courage can do, especially right in the beginning before these abuses become the norm. I have no sympathy for people who are willing to give up other people's rights for selfish reasons.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams

[Sonoman]

116. And TSA would have fired you on the spot.

Those poor people have no real rights. TSA falls under the PATRIOT Act.

And that just sucks.

Sonoman

[sabrina 1]

122. And that would have been fine by me. And an opportunity to

get even support for abolishing these abuses not to mention the huge amount of support any worker fired for standing up for our rights would receive from the public. That is in fact what is needed, a 'patriot' who is fired for doing what is right. I would love to see the reaction to that.

TSA, a failed organization so far, never having caught a single terrorist, costing the people untold amounts of money, violating rights every way they can, and now turning their workers into the equivalent of Brown Shirts. They are not exactly popular anywhere these days.

It is a perfect opportunity for workers to take a stand for preserving our rights. I have no doubt that most people I know would do so. What good is a job in a country where your rights are being chipped away at and your children's future freedom is endangered by that job? People have died for these rights. No one is asking them to die, just take a stand. That person would be a hero.

[Sonoman]

123. I want you on my team.

Anyone willing to lose their job on principles is fine by me.

If more employers had to worry about people saying, "Fuck you, I quit", we would all be better off.

Sonoman

[sabrina 1]

131. Thank you, I agree, employers should not feel they

can force employees to do almost anything in order to maintain their shitty jobs. Sometimes doing the right thing can be very rewarding also. But to drag yourself into work every day hating what you do, means they, the workers have also lost their right to decent employment which does not involve violations of ethics let alone constitutional rights.

I know I would have no problem walking out of that job. The very thought of doing what is required of them, is sickening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Here is where I slightly disagree with you

the fact that TSA has not caught a terrarist does not mean they are a failed organization. This only shows a very poor understanding of security and what you are supposed to do. If you deter... you succeed.

After that... these methods... quite brutally honest they are laughing at us. And I mean the terrorists, 22 men with knives won...

But hey, El AL, by your own logic, has failed in security as well. Just saying...

[sabrina 1]

158. The underwear bomber was a failure. Had they simply listened to his

father, he never would have gotten near a plane. I don't think that would have happened in Israel, that a person already known to be a threat, would have made it to a plane. So, no Israel has not had a shoe bomber or an underwear bomber manage to get past their security and onto a plane.

Old fashioned Intel would have worked on 9/11 had the Bush gang used it instead of ignoring threats.

During the Clinton era many planned terror attacks were stopped because they focused on threats. The Bojinka plot, eg, had the potential to be far worse than 9/11 but was stopped because no one ignored the warnings, they took them seriously and then worked in cooperation with foreign intel and were able to stop them. And without any virtual rape machines or groping of innocent people either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Yeah but that's not TSA but CIA and State

He never ever went through a checkpoint manned by these guys, and for the record a DOG would have caught him, not the gropers.

It was a failure of the wrong alphabet soup.

[sabrina 1]

171. I am aware of who is responsible. And that he was escorted

through security without a passport, and WITH a record showing him to be a threat. Why would that happen? Are they really that incompetent, or is their excuse, which I have also read, that they were conducting a investigation of Al Queda and did not want to show their hands? If so, then why is Obama using him as an excuse to sell these machines? Especially since those machines could not have detected the kind of material he used for his 'bomb'.

[DeschutesRiver]

168. With respect to all that you've posted on this thread

I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly with your points. In fact, I've lived my life with that philosophy and it is not an impossible thing to do, as some are making it out to be on this thread.

What would be impossible for me would be to have never made such a stand in the face of someone or some event threatening to eliminate basic rights in the country. I don't fight every battle that comes my way in the same manner, but there are lines I've drawn in the sand that cannot be crossed with a repercussion from me.

My country is not perfect - rather far from perfect - but it is part of my deal as a citizen to do whatever I can to right the things that go wrong, and to push back on wrongdoers when they seek to aggressively take away basic rights from the rest of us. Whenever an opportunity comes up that crosses my line in the sand, I take a stand.

It hasn't affected the quality of my life one bit, in fact it has made me a far happier person for having done so.

[sabrina 1]

160. I personally would rather be fired that abuse people like this.

And the first person who stands up and quits right now, will become a national hero. Others will follow and eventually these virtual rape scans and sexually abusive pat-downs will stop.

Airline pilots have led the way. First one, then a second, refused to be subjected to these abuses. They were placed on leave without pay. However, others joined and the Union backed them. TSA had no choice but to negotiate with them. TSA has also been forced to stop the abuse of children, agreeing to halt the groping of children up to 12 years of age. If no one stood up, this would not only have continued, but it would not have been long before even more abuse was reported.

Those TSA workers are not children, they are adults and American Citizens. They are complicit in the destruction of Constitutional Rights, and no, losing a job is NOT an excuse for continuing to do so. Many people give up their lives to preserve civil rights. Yes, it sucks, and throughout history things have sucked and when no one stood up, they only got worse. But when someone did, and was willing to make some sacrifices, they stopped worse abuse for all of us.

Even during the Bush administration, in his DOJ, many Republicans quit their jobs, giving up careers rather than continue to participate in the law-breaking they witnessed there. Military prosecutors also quit, risking their careers, rather than continue to prosecute innocent people who were being denied basic rights.

It really is not asking a lot to ask someone to quit a job in defense of freedom. We are not asking them to risk their lives.

[truedelphi]

130. In today's economy, the "trouble makers" signing such a

petition would be replaced faster than someone can say "Bob's your uncle."

And the other thing is, many of them come from minimum wage jobs. I know a sandwich maker who got a job through TSA - he was gonna to have a STARTING pay of $ 28 an hour.

I seriously doubt he would give that up for an action that would only be a small unnoticed political statement.

I think it is up to us the American people to put pressure on the Airlines and on our Congress critters as how reprehensible this is.

[sabrina 1]

159. Airline pilots have refused to work under these circumstances

and were placed on leave without pay. I am sure it is just as hard on them as it would be on TSA workers to manage without their income.

But, once two of them took a stand, others backed them up. And guess what, the TSA were forced to negotiate with them. Iow, it took one to start the ball rolling and they won.

Protests over the fondling of toddlers has forced the TSA to agree to stop mauling children under the age of 12. Standing up for rights works if enough people do it. But it takes the first one to have the courage to lead the way.

We can help those who stand up, yes, but we don't work there. However if I did, I would quit. I do not expect other people to do something I would not be prepared to do. I have done it and did walk away from a very good job for less reason than this. And no, it was not easy. But no one said preserving rights would ever be easy. If it was, they would never be threatened.

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams

[northzax]

139. actually, there is a unionization effort

underway, AFGE and NTEU just won the preliminary ruling allowing for a vote.

[Leftist Agitator]

78. You feel sorry for them?

Why? They can quit at any time. Nobody is forcing them to sexually assault people.

[Paper Roses]

85. Most are shackled to their job because if they quit, no unemployment.

Because so many seem to be expressing their distaste at performing this invasive search, it is helping to spread the word to those who make these gawd awful decisions.

The idea of a physical grope makes me sick, I would never go through that. The X-ray machine gives me the willies. Is there a cumulative danger from this x-ray procedure for frequent fliers?
Even at the dentist, they shield you from radiation. Are these rays less potentially harmful?

Our freedoms are falling into a giant sinkhole.

[Leftist Agitator]

88. "Most are shackled to their job because if they quit, no unemployment."

So they are choosing to sexually assault people in order to ensure their own financial security.

Don't give me this "They have no choice!" bullshit.

There is always a choice. I can goddamned well tell you that if I came in to work one day, and my employer said, "Alright, today we start groping people in a sexual manner!" I would be out the door, post haste, regardless of how it would affect me monetarily.

Yes, even in the current economic climate, I would make that choice. So would anyone with a sense of basic decency.

[Paper Roses]

90. I'm sure there are those who will or did quit. If this job, with all its

horrors is the only source of income it can't be much. Do you think some would have second thoughts, quit, no collecting of unemployment benefits? I feel sorry for the TSA employees who are put into this situation.

There are things they have to consider:
There are no jobs out there
There is rent or mortgage,
Food really is a necessity
Bills must be paid.
Car payments and insurance so that you can get to work

ad nauseam.

All the full body scanners have my sympathy. What a nasty job description. It is not their fault, it is our government.

Given the choice, I'd rather the X-ray. I was once before been patted down but it was not to the extremes today. I truly believe this is an invasion.

[sabrina 1]

100. And what about passengers who need to fly to get to work but

for various reasons, most of them pretty obvious, will no longer be able to fly without harassment and will have to make decisions about THEIR jobs? Like the Airline Stewardess who is a cancer survivor and was ordered to remove her prosthetic breast?

Theirs are not the only jobs on the line. Traumatizing people, like that stewardess among others, who have to use the airlines regularly to do their jobs, is not a job worth keeping unless we are back to those times when just following orders and/or needing a job, is an acceptble excuse for trashing the rights of citizens.

[asthmaticeog]

111. What does your "basic sense of decency" say about people who let their families go hungry

to prove a point about their superior righteousness? Just how high IS that horse you're perched on?

[kurtzapril4]

136. It's about the size of a Draft Horse

I'd say Sabrina's horse is about 18 hands.

[Sirveri]

125. It's not financial security. It's choosing to be able to eat and have a roof over their head.

You make it seem like poor people have a choice. They don't have a real choice when the unemployment rate (U-3) is 9.6%. None of the poor have any choice if they even want to survive.

The real answer is to simply refuse to do the job, and hope they fire you for following your conscience, then you COULD get unemployment benefits. But you probably wouldn't be able to get another job... possibly ever, at least as long as the current employment climate remains.

[Moondog]

120. Exactly!

Shame on them. People who would accept, or continue, employment doing this are beneath contempt.

[northzax]

140. and their kids will eat?

tough finding work out there these days, you know? $15/hour with federal benefits is a pretty good gig...

[anafreeka]

143. TSA

I applied for a TSA job a few couple of years ago. They hire many part-time workers and the starting pay is not 15.00/hour.

[Merlot]

2. Of course the majority of them hate it

I feel bad for those that are stuck in a job that demands this. When they signed on for this job, this groping wasn't in the job description. Now anyone who signs on knowing full well they would have to do this gives me pause.

Unfortunately they will have to be the target of peoples wrath until the TSA and the airlines realize what a blunderf*ck this whole thing is.

[sufrommich]

4. It's a good paying union job in an era of joblessness,

I won't cast suspicion on people who take those jobs.

[Bill McBlueState]

22. it's not a union job n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Not unionized yet

but it looks to be coming

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Damn it is taking too long to get them to be union

now it makes sense why they want to privatize them NOW.

[Bozita]

24. TSA employees can vote on union representation, labor board rules - WaPo 11/12/10

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/11/tsa_employees_can_vote_on_unio.html

Posted at 7:12 PM ET, 11/12/2010
TSA employees can vote on union representation, labor board rules
By Joe Davidson

In a significant victory for federal employee unions, the Federal Labor Relations Authority decided Friday that Transportation Security Administration staffers will be allowed to vote on union representation.

The decision clears the way for a campaign by the government's two largest labor organizations, the American Federation of Government Employees and the National Treasury Employees Union, to represent some 50,000 transportation security officers.

"It is no secret that the morale of the TSO workforce is terrible as a result of favoritism, a lack of fair and respectful treatment from many managers, poor and unhealthy conditions in some airports, poor training and testing protocols and a poor pay system," said AFGE President John Gage. "The morale problems are documented by the government's own surveys. TSOs need a recognized union voice at work, and the important decision of the FLRA finally sets the process in motion to make that right a reality."

Even as the unions gear up their bidding to represent a large block of workers, labor leaders continue to press the administration to grant collective bargaining rights for the officers and to push legislation that also would do that.

more...

[sufrommich]

26. My mistake. Although they are good paying jobs.

[jberryhill]

75. Do you see the timing?

Allowed to organize last week.

And then came Monday.

[avaistheone1]

149. The people being groped are the ones who are being victimized here.

[LisaL]

5. They hate it? What about passengers subjected to it?

[CLANG]

142. They hate it too. Now who hates it more?

I'd be willing to bet that the TSA employee hates it on a level way beyond a traveler. The TSA people are forced to have this encounter EVERY DAY, MULTIPLE TIMES, all the while being treated like perverts. And men have to grope men and women grope women. I can speak as a man and say that I would be ready to commit suicide if that was my new job description. And for people to say they should just quit is ridiculous. There would be plenty more in line to take his job - and some of them probably WILL be perverts.

The TSA administration is responsible for this mess not the lowly groper. And why don't people understand that most of us if we lost our jobs would be a homeless bum by the time we ever got lucky enough to get another job. So this TSA worker should quit his job and live in his car just to "do the right thing"? For who? You or his family?

I feel much compassion for these people, they are being traumatized as much as anyone by these rules, and I hope their speaking out will help convince the powers that be that this is not a tenable long-term plan. I for one have come up with a new catch phrase for when I will ever take flight again:

I don't fly until somebody dies!!! (If I need to attend a funeral and there isn't enough time to take a bus or train, that's the only circumstance which will get me on a plane until this bullshit gets STOMPED DOWN!!

[sarcasmo]

6. A guy I know in my sub division just started a month a go. The next time I see him it will

interesting to hear his take on this subject.

[Ian David]

7. Good. I'm glad they feel bad about it. Let's keep up the pressure on them.

a) They've been pissing us off for years, so I have no problem giving them a little payback, whether in this particular instance they deserve it or not.
b) Their bosses and policy makers don't care how WE feel.
c) Maybe the policy will change if the people forced to implement it hate it as much as WE do.

On the OTHER hand...

d) Maybe the only TSA agents left doing this will be the ones who DO enjoy it. And that would be bad. And extra-creepy.

I hope they go on strike until this changes.

Let's make them miserable enough to side with us for a change.

[Poboy]

35. I second this. Lets keep up the pressure. -nt

We will see our objectives met.

[superduperfarleft]

8. Clearly it's just bad policy all around.

The workers hate it, the passengers hate it, and it doesn't do shit to "keep us safe."

[etherealtruth]

91. + 1

[RKP5637]

9. When I used to have to fly a lot I just hoped and hoped i would not get stuck sitting

next to some of the people I saw waiting to board. I can certainly imagine seeing someone really gross coming toward you that you had to pat down. And some must smell! It's really really all quite gross IMO. Imagine how many people a TSA agent has to deal with during a shift, physically and verbally. It's easy to forget the TSA agents did not make the asinine rules.

[Ian David]

10. That's a good idea. I won't shower for a couple weeks before I go through security. n/t

[LisaL]

12. Way to go.

:rofl:

[RKP5637]

13. Yeah!!! That crossed my mind earlier, bet they rush you through to get one

out of smell range!

[Mariana]

58. Eat a bunch of garlic, too.

Not really, though. Please pity the poor sod who has to sit next to you on the plane!

[pipoman]

33. I don't disagree

but I will ruthlessly berate anyone feeling my junk in an effort to ruin that person's day and hopefully contribute to their quitting.

[ZombieHorde]

11. Recommended. nt

[Matariki]

14. As long as what changes is the policy - not what people can say while being groped.

Because I wouldn't put it past 'Homeland Security' to institute a policy that allows fining people if they insult the TSA agent who is violating them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Yep, these are true

This is why this is a MANAGEMENT issue... in many ways, and why folks need to lay off from abusing like workers.

I suspect that TSA will roll back a lot of this for morale reasons, but also all the lawsuits accruing.

[Hannah Bell]

16. finally. i thought it was weird that some people were acting like the screeners

were enjoying it. i'd be horribly embarrassed & apologetic if i had to do that. i don't think there are many people who'd enjoy it. be embarrassed, humiliated, maybe disgusted or bored after months of groping random bodies (most of which are probably not that lovely) -- but enjoy it? doubtful.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

112. If I was made to do something I found 'horrible'

and felt 'apologetic' to the people I was forcing it on, I'd quit.

When I think of the men my family lost in WW1, and the others who endured 4 years of hell in the trenches to keep me from being subjected to this tyranny, I say fuck them!

Fuck them all, the short, the fat and the tall!

[Kali]

17. I was thinking about this too.

Must be worse than working for the MVD when those lame ass corp-speak "Ideas" from up the chain come in forcing you to be "customer-friendly" even to the most outrageous assholes.

[sufrommich]

21. Is the MVd the same as the DMV (where you get your

license renewed)? If it is, I have not noticed this new "customer-friendly" service of which you speak.

[Kali]

31. yes

when these brilliant "ideas" get forced on the lower levels of bureaucracies they often get somewhat mutated by the individuals having to both deal with the public and the higher-ups.

we had a small office in our town until the recent budget cuts and there were two clerks - one was a real sweet person and the other was...kind of stereotypical if you know what I mean - when she had to spout the obviously scripted new customer "greeting" as opposed to her old "NEXT" it was actually kind of pitiful to see. :rofl:

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

18. How about a good dose of common sense.

How many terrorists are really out there? Why all the attention on aircraft? Plenty more targets are all around us. This is really about keeping the population fearful, that way we loose our freedoms a little at a time and think we need to fight something to defend our way of life. Any thoughts?

[somone]

19. So are they gonna claim workers' comp for mental stress from groping people?

Or do they hate their jobs like bill collectors hate their jobs?

[Book Lover]

20. Boo hoo (nm)

[LisaL]

25. If they hate it so much, why don't they do something about it?

[Canuckistanian]

30. What can they do? They're not unionized.

And if they complain, they're on the unemployment line.

It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario.

[Ian David]

36. This is true. I remember the Repukes and Blue Dogs preventing them from unionizing. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

38. And Homeland Security, too

Bush REFUSED to let them organize right from the beginning.

In fact, HS was a Dem idea. The Repubs rejected it until they could be sure there were no unions involved.

[LisaL]

40. If they fired for complaining, can't they sue?

[Canuckistanian]

41. I don't know, exactly

Has anyone successfully sued the government lately for wrongful dismissal?

The government has powerful resources - I think most non-managerial employees simply can't afford to fight it.

[spooky3]

52. Well, it's part of my job to know...it's highly likely that they can be dismissed

for not being willing to do something that is legal and that is part of official policy.

Unless there is a specific exception that protects their objection (such as civil service rules, a union contract, a statute, a provision of the Constitution in the case of federal workers), they are at will and can be dismissed for no good reason at all.

[Codeine]

42. Sue? They have a job. They have to do it. nt

[LisaL]

43. So they can't complain about the conditions?

Is that what you are saying?

[Codeine]

46. They are. That's what they're doing in this article in fact.

Those complaints won't change anything, and making those changes is not the responsibility of the bottom-rung employees.

[LisaL]

47. I don't see any names in the article.

When passengers complained about being groped, they gave their names.
These complains supposedly coming from TSA agents? No names are given, so how do I know where it came from?

[Codeine]

50. Your complaint is absurd. They withheld their names so as to protect

their employment. Why are you so vested in making this the fault of the working stiffs forced to grope cellulite thighs? They don't set the policies.

[spooky3]

53. totally agree. I don't understand any DUer blaming a management decision

on the poor (likely Dem.) employees.

[ProudDad]

155. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9594341#9600220

Most probably voted republican...

That's what most authoritarian followers in "para-military" organizations do...

[ProudDad]

154. Yep, they are only following orders...

[tammywammy]

57. No names are given because they don't want to be fired

It's not easy getting a job right now, so it's not a shock that while someone detests part of their job and is speaking out to management about it, and anonymously to a paper, they're not going to let their names get plastered in the news because they still have bills to pay at the end of the day.

[LisaL]

69. If they don't want to be fired than I fail to see how can they be

supposedly miserable enough working this job.

[TorchTheWitch]

72. lucky you that you've never been in the position of hating your job

yet having to keep it so that you can eat and keep a roof over your head. Spend some time in the average worker-bee's world.

[LisaL]

76. I fail to see how you can possibly make a statement such as

this considering you don't know anything about jobs I had or didn't have.

[Codeine]

97. I hate my job, but I don't want to be fired.

Anyone with half a fucking brain doesn't want to lose their job. This is how we pay our rent and put food on the table.

[LisaL]

102. I am much more worried about passengers some of whom

have to fly on business so they will have go through this.

[Codeine]

106. So take your anger out on the people who set the policy.

Picking on the powerless is just bullying.

[LisaL]

107. Who exactly is powerless?

What do you call the passenger who has to either agree to an x-ray scanner or a pat down just in order to get on the plane? And if passengers decides he doesn't want either the passenger can't even leave the screening area, because TSA wants to fine the passenger 11,000$?

[readmoreoften]

64. What exactly can they "do"? They're not unionized.

[seabeyond]

27. i dont agree with the serving country part, if it makes him feel good, meh. it is sad

and i can imagine how these people feel. and absolutely understand where he is coming from.

i know where i am coming from too. i understand the reaction from people getting their crotch felt, too.

tsa does have a problem

and i do think they are "pretending" all is well.

[Me.]

29. That's What I Was Thinking

They're on;y serving those who came up with these scams, like Chertoff who's making a mint off those machines.

[sally cat]

28. I would feel compassion right up to the moment a hand touched my private parts.

[Cal Carpenter]

32. but I read right here on DU that they're a bunch of pervs who get off on this

You mean they're just normal people stuck in mediocre jobs following shitty orders?

[ProudDad]

156. some are...some aren't... (n/t)

[Poboy]

34. No mercy until our objectives are achieved. -nt

This is hardball.

[Slit Skirt]

37. well, here we go......

humiliate travellers, demoralize TSA...break us completely down....

how do you think they get people to torture other human beings? you break them down, desensitize them, then it becomes more acceptable, then some start enjoying it....


I think this scanner/pat down is the beginning of something very frightening....we all have to fight against it.

[awoke_in_2003]

148. yep...

the Nazi atrocities did not happen all of a sudden, they were slowly built up

[Stinky The Clown]

44. The rubbed genitalia and the "poor" TSA officers are sideshows. The real issue is that TSA exists.

If we're so fucking concerned about risk, why do we allow cell phones in cars? Why do we not force bar patrons to surrender their keys? Why do we not have seat belt/ignition interlocks?

I could go on.

What's the big fucking deal about airplanes.

Life is a risk. Deal with it.





OoooOOOOOooooo some bogeyman might spirit a bomb on a plane.






Clue: Check the fucking ports for suitcase nukes. *That* scares me.

[Codeine]

45. I can't believe how many people are blaming the folks doing the job.

Do they seriously believe these guys enjoy palpating piss-stench groins and stanky pits all day? Newsflash -- the average American is about as sexy to touch as dead dog.

[tammywammy]

51. Are you surprised? They've being called pervs here on DU.

I have sympathy for the guy and all the other TSA agents, and hopefully them speaking up along with the outraged public will get this shit stopped.

Talking about TSA agents getting all "excited" about doing the searches makes as much sense and thinking my OB/GYN gets hot during an exam.

[spooky3]

55. + 1

[Codeine]

56. Everyone seems to think their junk is irresistibly sexy.

Few fall into that category, and after a long shift even fewer, I'm sure.

[LisaL]

60. Well if you believe the anonymous quotes, why are you ignoring

"Heads up, got a cutie for you" story? It's in the same OP article.

[Codeine]

62. Because there's a difference between a journalist's

anonymous quote, which has ethical and professional criteria, and a fourth-hand hearsay quote so unlikely that the guy writing the article recognizes the need to underscore its hearsay nature.

[Caretha]

87. Idk

Did the SS enjoy putting people in cattle cars in Germany? :shrug:

[Xithras]

96. The only thing worse than a brownshirt is a brownshirt who only does it for a paycheck.

The agents of oppression deserve no pity from you or me.

I'll bet a few of the soldiers at Abu Ghraib felt a little guilty too. So the fuck what?

Nobody is forcing them to do this.

[KansDem]

126. I'm reminded of an exchange from "Cool Hand Luke" (1967)

Luke (Paul Newman) is being put into "the box" for a night after his mother dies because he might get "rabbit in his blood."

Boss: Sorry, Luke. I'm just doing my job. You gotta appreciate that.
Luke: Nah - calling it your job don't make it right, Boss.

[Bonobo]

48. Whether they hate it, love it or are indifferent is totally irrelevant. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

83. I agree.

[Toucano]

54. It's not "...honorably serving my country," when you do something dishonorable

like violate people's civil rights.

I truly have sympathy for them, and I know they are sincere.

But that "honorably serving" crap is a total delusion.

[Poboy]

109. Yeah, what a heaping load of self righteous bullshit.

"serving my country".

[demodonkey]

59. Don't like doing the TSA groping? Then don't work there.

Plenty of people have to fly for their work, and people have been telling THEM to get another job if they don't like getting groped by the TSA.

[Hawkeye-X]

63. Then knock off the security theatre, and study how the Israelis do it

They do it right, and have not had a failure in their security since 1948.

Hawkeye-X

[Ruby the Liberal]

77. The Israelis profile.

Been through it. Over 2 HOURS of searches and questioning, but no one laid a gloved finger on me.

While it was intimidating, I didn't feel humiliated/abused/groped like current TSA procedures.

It was in fact rather comforting to fly with ElAl knowing how seriously they take security to take the time to profile.

[Subdivisions]

65. Oh boo to the fucking hoo!

They're more than willing to collect a paycheck for sexually assualting and humiliating fellow Americans all fucking day.

[pa28]

66. I never thought I'd have sympathy for TSA agents but here it is.

Many of them are very courteous and others seem to take pleasure in ruining your day but I'm starting to think these people are underpaid. Spending an eight hour shift giving intimate searches to obese tourists who are probably self-absorbed enough to suspect your motives is something I would not wish on my worst enemy.

[LisaL]

67. Well if TSA agents are so miserable in their jobs because

they have to "give intimate searches to obese tourists," who by the way did not ask to be intimately searched, then TSA agents really should quit.

[pa28]

70. I'd certainly quit.

It's degrading to both parties but the real point is these are just people on the bottom rung of the ladder. The blame should be directed at management and not the unfortunate people who have to carry out this idiotic policy.

[apocalypsehow]

68. Then why not quit?

:shrug:

I know I would, faced with a circumstance of being required to routinely perform as part of my job something so morally objectionable (if not outright illegal).

[BlackhawkPaul]

79. Compilation of news videos of TSA abuses

Compilation of news videos of TSA search abuses-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkQoiaf7Uc

[Caretha]

84. Everyone

Everyone should watch your youtube link. Those making excuses would think again.

[somone]

119. Yep. It's a widespread problem

and not isolated incidents.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

80. "What ya gonna do? QUIT?"

Smirk. Sneer.


----


This is another reason we should all be afraid of baaaad economic times. Managers, supvisors, bean counters, and policy makers in business and government know the times are bad and take advantage of that to put into place policies and rules that they know damn good and well they would never get away with otherwise.

The result is employees who have no morale to speak of, and sob on their way in to work and after they get home. This is not good for employees, and when they finally crack, they can and do take it out on their higher-ups- and sometimes they do that while they're loaded for bear.

I'm a postal employee, and all of the above applies to me and everyone I work with. We're stressed, demoralized, fed up, and angry, and it's entirely management's fault.

[pecwae]

82. Sorry

out of sympathy for them.

The first quote is nothing more than a person complaining about the overweight. Guess it's just not as bad when the victim has a more beautiful body in the eyes of the molester.

"Honorably serving my country"? I've heard this same statement used by those in the military to excuse wrong doing and no mercy was shown them here.

[InvisibleTouch]

86. That's an angle I didn't really think about, but I can see it.

To those who say "Why don't they just quit?" - when it's a choice between being unhappy at work and feeding your family, it's not so simple.

[tblue37]

89. I read an article today that says some airports are ditching the TSA and going

with private sector screening companies.

[KansDem]

124. How will this change things?

...some airports are ditching the TSA and going with private sector screening companies.

What would "private sector screening companies" do differently?

[tblue37]

138. Supposedly the congressman from Orlando gets contributions from

such private companies, so of course he thinks it's a good idea. But he did write a complaint letter tot he TSA about the way people are being treated.

One private company's CEO said that part of the problem is that tsome TSA workers let their power go to their heads and are rude and controlling with passengers. The private company, becuase it would want to keep the contract, would train its workers to be nicer and more respectful to the public. The private screeners would still have to follow TSA guidelines, but if they were trained to act better, it might help a bit. For example, some of the horror stories we have read have to do with agents who deliebrately make the situation as stressful as possible, either getting off on the power trip or else enjoying the humiliation of certain passengers.

A lot of situations involve workers who get pissed off and punitive toward a passenger if he/she dares to ask a simple question or make an inoffensive request for consideration of some specific issue.

Private screeners won't solve the outrageous issue of nude-o-scope scanners or aggressive groping, but some of the other issues we have had all along with controlling, angry, and punitive TSA screeners might get better.

[grahamhgreen]

92. "Molester, pervert, disgusting, an embarrassment, creep. " well said.

[LibDemAlways]

113. Those are mild compared to what I think of people who

grope old ladies' and teenagers' genitals for a living. Lower than pond scum and not worthy of the title "human being."

[Gormy Cuss]

93. I'm not surprised by this. Most TSA agents wouldn't want to be groped themselves

and unlike their bosses, these agents hear directly how unhappy passengers are with this new bit of security theater.

Good news, they have job security. Bad news, the job sucks.

[Rex]

98. I'm sure they all have brains and notice that the same thing applies

to them and their FAMILIES. I wonder how many of the agents think about their relatives getting groped (like they are doing) and wish someone would make it stop by changing policy.

[FormerDittoHead]

99. I've heard that before. It goes like this, "We're just following orders, now get in the train.."n/t

[sabrina 1]

162. Exactly, I'm sure they needed the jobs also. No wonder we are losing

this democracy. When you hear excuses being made for those who would do a job like this, it is easy to see why. When you think that throughout history, people have died to stop this kind of abuse against citizens, now to ask someone to refuse to do a job that contibutes to the destruction of the Constitution, is way too much to ask.

[mike_c]

101. those fucking pigs are NOT "serving their country"-- they're thugs for fascism....

Dammit-- I have to fly next week-- it's the last opportunity I'll have to visit my daughter before she immigrates to northern Europe.

She and her husband are young enough, well educated enough, and perceptive enough to recognize the need to get out of America now.

Driving to see them off isn't an option-- I'm in northern California, they're in Georgia. But I will never fly again on a flight that originates in America. Fuck the airlines, fuck the TSA pigs, and to hell with Barack Obama for continuing Amerika's lock-step march to corporo-military fascism.

[LibDemAlways]

114. I have been promising my daughter a trip to Europe for her high

school graduation next June. I have saved a long time for this trip and live in So. Cal. My current plan is to drive to Canada and fly from there. I will not deal with these jack-boot thugs. No way. No how.

[somone]

121. But, but it's a terrible job - they have to grope fat/ugly people

Congress should give them hardship duty pay :sarcasm:

[Dash87]

103. The TSA patdowns are disgusting and morale breaking.

Therefore, I can't feel sorry for them. :(

[lunatica]

104. Some people will do anything they're told and excuse by saying "I'm serving my country"

Amazing. This person cries because those nasty people call him/her names when all they're doing is "serving their country".

[suffragette]

110. This marks a groundswell in opinion, with both

a large amount of the public and likely a significant amount of the employees against the new policies.

In itself, these policies have become so distracting they are likely impacting the alertness and attention needed to identify actual security risks. In other words, the policy itself is becoming detrimental to the purpose for the policy.

[Politicalboi]

115. Maybe an onslaught of full diapers

Will get to these bastards. "Look, I can't help it. You guys scare the shit out of me". "Oops I crapped my pants". Make them hate it even more. Maybe Diaper Dave Vitter can help make a "change". LOL!

[quakerboy]

117. Am I the only one who finds the whole

TSA screening thing to be overly hyperbolic and really not all that meaningful? It seems the whole nation is up in arms over this, right and left, and I just don't get it.


On several accounts. Being seen virtually nekid or patted down. Ok. Does not seem that big a deal to me on its own. Granted I have repressed nudist tendancies and happen to be hung like a pair of horses, but still. I worry about the machines, purely on a "is it healthy to be hit by whatever sort of radiation or whatnot this thing uses". And I suppose there is slight worry on the "does this screener with his hands all up on my junk enjoy his job a little too much", But given how many a day they have to do, I feel fairly certain that thrill would die pretty damn quick for them.

I also find it ridiculous we buy these damn machines for god knows how much. It would make much more sense to me to just look to nations who have a history of dealing with terrorists and see how they deal with it(Israel and Ireland spring to mind), and emulate that as much as practical, with a little sprucing of our own inventiveness.

But all that said, I do not get the hubub. I mean, its not like the middle class is going to survive long enough for air travel to remain a viable option for any but the richest. This just seems like a distraction to me. Look at the boy in the balloon while we rob your retirement account....

[arikara]

134. Actually I see it as a good sign that

people have finally been pushed too far. Its a long time coming as they've been making the incremental changes now for nearly 10 years and the masses have basically lined up and accepted the nonsense. People should have stood up with the patriot act and not let it get to this point but c'est la vie I guess.

[noamnety]

137. Where I have problems with your post:

You've identified with the gropers, not the person being groped.

To understand the problem with that, picture a sexual assault in the workplace. A boss gropes an employee.
What determines if it's assault? Whether the boss saw it as a big deal? Or the effect it had on the person being groped? People who are sexually assaulted really don't give a shit if the rapist enjoyed it sexually or not - the effect on the victim is the same regardless.

It really doesn't matter if you personally wouldn't be traumatized by it. That doesn't negate that others are. It's like any other fondling, the difference between it being okay and traumatizing is whether or not the person consents to it, or whether it is forced on them against their will. Sounds like you would consent. That doesn't change that it feels like sexual assault to others.

Heck, you could enjoy streaking across a football field. That doesn't make it ANY more acceptable for a prison guard to strip a prisoner as a way to humiliate them. Your willingness to accept being naked in public isn't relevant to someone else being forced to undergo that, and the willingness or enjoyment of the person doing the forcing might make the difference between them being a poor sap forced to do it or an all out pervert, but their status as poor sap vs. pervert doesn't change the traumatizing nature of the event for their victims.

[quakerboy]

166. I do not believe you are correct

I don't really identify with either. Or perhaps I identify with both, to some degree. But the op I was responding to had to do with the "gropers" not the gropee's. And I was being a bit irreverently flippant about the whole personal modesty aspect of things, I will admit. Im sure I would be a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.

That said, I think you missed the whole intent of my message. I am kind of befuddled, in a world where the right wing is willing to let the government or corporations spy on and record every telephone or email conversation we have, why they would be outraged by this. I personally feel the left is less hypocritical on this, but I am sure the few intelligent thinkers other side could come up with similar critiques of why we are hypocritical in opposing this as well.

Either way, this seems like a very small issue effecting a relatively small number of people. Why is there such an outcry on this particular issue when police can beat down or shoot virtually any of us at the drop of a hat and get off with a relative slap on the wrist? In a country where people die daily due to lack of medical care, what unites us is a pat down of those who can afford

As to your examples.. the OP make it clear that the TSA employee's aren't doing this to "humiliate". The prison guard comparison is hyperbole. If we are going make a comparison, for conversations sake, a better example might be a doctor requiring a patient to have a colonoscopy. For arguments sake, you are not required to fly, nor are you required to have a certified cancer free colon. But if you want a safe colon or a safe airline, some aspects of personal modesty may have to be compromised. But that is not even the argument that I was making, and I prefer not to follow that side track too far at the moment

In the end, I think that neither pat down or nudie machine is the right choice. I understand that Israel has a much more efficient system, though I've never been there. MY main point is that I don't get why this is a big deal. I ended my last message somewhat flippantly as well, but I don't know many in my peer group who can afford to fly. And I see my peer group and those with less as the growth industry of the foreseeable future. So why is this itsy bitsy slice of potential discomfort a big deal? It strikes me somewhat similar to having riots because the price of a new BMW has gone up.

[noamnety]

167. The reason it's a big deal

is that for many people, the groping of their genitals by a stranger induces trauma. I understand that it doesn't for you, but that doesn't negate that it does for many people. Whether or not the TSA's intent is to humiliate, that is the final result for many.

It's nothing like a medical visit which is done with the patient's full consent for a specific health reason, and done in a nonpublic location, without people standing around gawking (and shooting cell phone footage!).

I understand it's an issue that doesn't effect most people. So are many civil rights issues - gay rights, rights of prisoners, immigrant rights. That doesn't make them less valid or important. The Abu Ghraib offenses didn't effect many people; it's easy to say we should have looked the other way because the overall war effected so many more people that it paled in comparison - but we have a moral obligation to address the issue even if just one person was being waterboarded or stripped and threatened by dogs.

Nor does it matter to me that those who can afford to fly are richer than the poorest of the poor. Many are flying as job requirements, and suddenly getting their genitals groped has become a job requirement. Can you imagine that being a part of any other job requirement? You want to work in a grocery store? The manager will feel your genitals each morning to make sure you aren't smuggling in something to hurt the customers. You want to be a teacher? The principle will squeeze your breasts each morning to make sure you aren't about to endanger the children.

Many people have to chose now between being unemployed or being molested regularly by strangers. It's not a choice I'd want to make; it's horrifying. And it's now a requirement if you need to fly cross country to see a sick parent on their death bed or attend their funeral. Not every plane trip is a luxury jaunt to the Bahamas.

[quakerboy]

169. I did some looking

Apparently I was wrong in one facet of my argument. More people fly on a yearly basis than I would have guessed. And that makes it more understandable to me.

I will state again, I was overly flippant about the personal effects of this in my original response. I imagine I would be uncomfortable with someone groping me. I regret that, as it appears to have completely skewed my message from what I had intended.

I will admit there is a lot I don't know about this. As I have read articles, it sounds to me like you have the choice of going through the scanner or having a pat down. If that is true, then it makes it even more equivalent to the medical example than your earlier prison example, because you have a choice.

Then again, I look higher up this thread, to the person/s who stated that if they were the TSA they would refuse to do it, even if that meant losing a job. And had no empathy for anyone who would participate. Wouldn't that equally apply to anyone who flies as part of earning a living?

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not odd to me that people dislike this. But it is odd to me that this seems to be a uniting factor for people, where having our electronic communications tapped is not. Or so many other things that make me feel violated or cause me trauma.

[matt819]

118. This almost seems like an anti-Obama, anti-Dem setup

The more I read about these measures, the more I think I've returned to the days of the Bush administration. You do realize, of course, that had these measure been promulgated during a republican's administration, republicans would not be demanding inquiries and would be wondering why dems don't care about security. But here's a so-called Democratic administration imposing truly vile security measures. There's something wrong with that. Where is this coming from, because I just don't seem a Democratic administration implementing this. It almost seems to be like a setup to attack Obama. Call me paranoid, but something's stinky here.

[backscatter712]

127. Think a few moves ahead and be disturbed. Who's gonna quit the TSA, and who's gonna stay?

With these Stanford Prison Experiment tactics in full-swing, what do you think's going to happen?

The TSA agents who expressed their objections as in the OP will only have so much patience for this shit, and a lot of them are going to quit.

So who's going to stay? The ones that enjoy their jobs. The ones that enjoy power-tripping on innocent people, who enjoy groping people and watching them naked on the porno-scanner's monitor. The ones who enjoy molesting people and hurting people.

It may very well get a hell of a lot worse before long...

[DeSwiss]

128. K&R

Booze, rage and justice in the participation age

It is now clear to me that the people's rage is a tool in the hands of the new electronic and digital corporate state. Its various channels, eddies and pools, regardless of type, can be directed toward all sorts of mischief and profit. Left or right, the angry throngs on both sides can be managed and directed. They can be sent chasing various injustices, denouncing evil characters on Wall Street, Times Square bombers, BP executives, or whatever, worked up into slobbering outrage over Sarah Palin, and thus kept divided and working against each other for the benefit of last gasp capitalism.

Once outside the furious drek of American political and economic life, and having finished the last book I will ever write, I found myself asking: "Why did the good in the American people not triumph? How can it be that so many progressive, justice-loving citizens failed? Their positions were well reasoned. The facts were indisputably on their side. Obviously, there was, and is, more going on than merely losing battles to demagoguery and meanness. Why do we lose the important fights so consistently? What has kept us from establishing a more just kingdom? Something is missing.

I think it is, in a word, the spiritual. The stuff that sustained Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and gave them the kind of calm deliberate guts we are not seeing today. I am not talking about religion, but the spirit in each of us, that solitary non-material essence, none the less shared by all humans because we are human. When we let our capitalist overlords cast everything in a purely material light -- as material gain or loss for one group or another -- we played the oppressor's game.

It was always a game with no vision. Just good guys, bad guys, pissed off people, or apathetic disenfranchised ones, amid one helluva lot of money changing hands. Mostly the wrong hands. That game drives us to the petty larcenies we perform against one another in the name employment, and the atrocities abroad to which none of us lay our rightful claim as beneficiaries of the empire's pillage. Our purposeful blindness to such things necessarily eliminates any universal vision. All the best ones are universal.

Yet down inside human beings is a love of justice. Honestly. The psyche seeks balance, and therefore seeks justice. Regardless of the perversion of its definition, and therefore the laws, by those who own nearly all of our country and damned well intend to own the rest, we know.

~ http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/07/waltzing.html">Joe Bageant, "Blogging toward the Kingdom"

[hlthe2b]

129. GOOD!

I do have some sympathy for these employees, but if THEY don't fight back, then it WILL continue. I fully intend to let them know that I have served on a jury that convicted an individual of doing precisely (and no more) than what they are doing.

IF TSA rebels, this WILL stop.

[scentopine]

132. To make us more comfortable TSA should post pictures of their own

breasts and genitals. That way we'll all feel better.

[ThatsMyBarack]

133. I hope their bosses are reading/listening.

Especially our POTUS!

[REP]

144. Telemarketers don't like their jobs either - yet no one defends them

They're working crappy jobs because they need the money to pay bills and they don't grope you, get no one ever gets all sob by over them.

[jberryhill]

147. The conditions of their job have changed

If you get a job as a telemarketer, you know what you are getting into.

Nobody joined the TSA to frisk groins, and that is what they are now being asked to do.

[LiberalFighter]

145. I think there needs to be a focus on embarrassing management too.

Call them sexual deviants, molesters, perverts, etc. Show them whacking off while imagining all of the pat downs of little kids, young adults, and grandmothers.

Show them taking home the images of everyone that is scanned and watching on their computer. Supposedly it isn't true. But people will believe it.

Show that they have video cameras in the rooms they do the private screenings. And taking home the videos. How do we know that someone hasn't installed secret video cameras?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

146. K&R

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9555935&mesg_id=9556320

[pattmarty]

150. Obama can't even "fix" this? It seems the depts and heads run him.

[Swampguana]

151. huh

So everyones pretty much on the same page, Awesome. What's the hold up?

[pjahn]

152. So

Are they good Germans who just follwo orders?

[ProudDad]

153. Then either complain or quit -- better would be both...

They've gone way over the line with this one...

[niyad]

157. so they are brainwashed, thinking they are "serving their country"-- that is just sad.

[sabrina 1]

163. It reminds of a question many people have asked before.

'Would the military ever turn their guns on the American people if ordered to do so?' Most of the time when this question was asked, most people said they did not believe they would. I think that is a fantasy. It seems that following orders, keeping a job, no matter how shitty, especially if they are told they are 'serving their country', which of course they would be, is enough to ensure that if it ever happened, they would definitely follow those orders.

We have become a country with no morality so people do not feel compelled to act morally. And the apologists who excuse them, will they excuse the shooting of Americans?

Silly question, people excuse police shootings all the time. I guess we've traveled too far down the road to turn back. Democracy, it was a nice dream but people not willing to defend it, do not really deserve it.

[Poboy]

165. A very good observation. -nt

[lovuian]

170. They know they are violating people

they don't like it either