Societal Forgiveness..another Vick thread

[pipoman]

All of this talk about forgiving Michael Vick has gotten me thinking; when does a person deserve societal forgiveness and when does a person deserve a scarlet letter for life even after the punishment for their crime has been paid?

Having worked on criminal defense teams for a number of years, I do consider myself a civil libertarian. I believe people deserve the best possible defense regardless their financial ability. I know, however, that people in the US (and in most countries around the world) actually get the best defense against criminal allegations they can afford...it ain't right, but that is the sad truth. When someone has extensive financial resources and gets any prison time at all, it can be assumed that person has, in fact, committed the crime convicted.

Forgiveness of people, not in close association with ourselves, becomes more about the person who is pondering the forgiveness than about the person who is being contemplated for forgiveness. Does my, or any other outsiders, forgiveness really matter to anyone except the forgiver? I think not.

I tend to decide if a person deserves my forgiveness based on several factors. Their age at the time of the crime, the nature of the crime, the perceived recidivism of the specific crime, the status of the victim(s), the remorse and body language of the offender, was addiction a factor, and the ongoing display of contrition of the offender.

Convictions of crimes should lead to one attitude or psychological result if no others, and that is contrition. So my first determining factor in forgiveness, is this person displaying contrition?

Was the person young, say under 25 years old when the crime was committed? After all who among us didn't do stupid, even thoughtless and maybe even a cruel thing(s) as a young person?

Is there remorse? I am remorseful of a stupid thing I did when I was 19 years old some 25 years later..I don't dwell on it but I do feel remorse for this one act.

Some crimes are so heinous that the person never deserves to be trusted as a free person in a free society again regardless of remorse or any other factor. These are usually crimes which have higher recidivism rates too. Much time with many contrary acts must pass before the person can earn my forgiveness.

People do things outside of their true character when addiction is a factor. Addiction can also go to recidivism. Is there a high risk for a relapse into the addiction?

Lastly, body language is far more telling than words or even actions. If a person says sorry and buys the person wronged a bouquet of flowers, but won't look the wronged person in the eye or displays other body language which is contrary to what is actually being said or done. This can and often does change with time.

Using Vick as an example for my own determination of forgiveness.

Vick was a grown adult at the time of his offenses, but really still fairly young. His crime was indeed heinous, ongoing and deliberate. While some torturous activity does have high recidivism if it involves some sort of psychological sadism, in Vick's case I believe it was actually thoughtless disregard for life. I believe that Vick can live the rest of his life without having an urge to torture animals.

The victims in this case have been dealt with no thanks to Vick, nor am I aware of any actions ongoing by Vick to aid other victims in lieu of his own.

I have yet to see anything I perceived as remorse for his actions in his body language. I have seen interviews and read statements and I tend to believe he is remorseful he was caught, not that he actually feels remorse for his victims. This may change.

I don't believe that chemical addiction was a factor, I do believe that a power addiction may have been but that is actually a different issue.

I really haven't seen public contrition being displayed yet. Public acts are all I have to go by.

My personal feelings are that Vick isn't worthy of my forgiveness yet. He may be in the future. Contrition will probably come when Vick is no longer the golden boy for anyone.

Of coarse, because I am really not a narcissist, I know none of this matters to anyone. It may however explain why some people can't forgive Vick for his actions. I believe we all have criteria which is considered when pondering forgiveness. Some of us who are more analytical may actually classify our criteria, other's criteria is more nondescript and maybe even abstract.

Just my $.02.

[TBF]

1. Interesting discussion -

I doubt I will be able to come to a place of forgiveness for Vick - ever. I had always been anti-death penalty until the Timothy McVeigh bombed that building (with an obvious daycare center in his sights). Somehow the cruelty towards defenseless animals and children doesn't sit with me and I don't see a way to forgive under those circumstances.

[Ichingcarpenter]

2. If he loved the sport

then he would give away his millions
and live on what his fans live on.

[seabeyond]

3. i am not in his heart. i cannot decide these things. i can only

accept what i am given. i dont feel it is really my place to "forgive" or not. but i can let go of what he did. time, punishment, and behavior at this point.

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. What he does with his wealth will

sanction if I have forgiveness.

Go on America..... Watch your Football and Bread and Footballs.

I don't think anyone should idolize someone because
his talents may exceed his moral consciousness. and still get paid MILLIONS
when people are losing their homes and jobs.


I think he should be ostracized for 10 years
like the Greeks did with assholes.

[blondeatlast]

5. My only criteria: Had he not gotten caught, would he still be torturing

animals? Sometimes, the answers really are that simple.

I believe he would.

[pipoman]

6. Good point