US had plans to ‘take over’ Azores in 1975

[unhappycamper]

US had plans to ‘take over’ Azores in 1975
By Agence France-Presse
Friday, November 19th, 2010 -- 8:16 pm

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon had contingency plans to "take over" the Azores archipelago in 1975 in the event of a possible communist takeover of Portugal, newly released US government documents showed Friday.

James Schlesinger, the defense secretary at the time, told secretary of state Henry Kissinger that the US military had made preparations if necessary to ensure US access to the Azores, home to the strategic Lajes airfield, according to a document declassified this month and posted by the National Security Archive, an independent research institute.

Suggesting the need to protect US interests in the Azores after the 1974 military coup in Portugal, Kissinger worried that there was a "50 percent chance of losing it" to communist control.

"We should have a program," said Kissinger, according to the memorandum summarizing his breakfast meeting on January 22, 1975.

Schlesinger replied: "We have a contingency plan to take over the Azores."

[Ghost Dog]

1. There are contingency plans to take over anywhere and everywhere,

are there not?

(Apparently, Both Germany and UK had plans to take over the Canary Islands if Spain's position changed. Spain, it is said, would have come on-side with the Axis in exchange for occupying all the lands between Dakar and Tanger...)

[Posteritatis]

2. Indeed there are

And contingency plans in preventing areas from getting taken over, and contingency plans for getting taken over, and so on and so forth.

I really can't get worked up over their existence, much as people will probably howl about stuff like this being Proof Of Foulest Intent.

[JackRiddler]

3. Such plans show hubris, and facilitate fulfillment of many crimes.

There are a variety of plans for martial law in the US. They have led to the creation of the apparatus and protocols that make it possible. Sooner or later these means find their use in some context, even if not in a full-fledged martial law scenario.

We haven't been preparing for social justice, we've been preparing for civil war.

Just because they have a plan for invading every country and murdering every human being if judged necessary in their demented calculus, it is untrue that they make plans for "everything."

Do you think they're making plans for eventually achieving a secure world peace, disarmament, an end to the arms trade and the conversion of the Pentagon to a museum?

Planning entails moving towards, even if most plans are not ultimately put into effect. Creating capacities raises the chances that they will be used.

The aggressive war on Iraq of 2003 was preceded by 30 years of contingency planning to invade the Middle East, which affected policy, resulted in a variety of arms sales and deployments, and facilitated and prepared for the particular crimes against humanity that GW Bush finally launched (not to mention those perpetrated by his two predecessors).

I submit it is not "their job" to figure out how to exterminate Canadians after a possible communist revolution there, but I bet they have that planned too.

[Posteritatis]

9. Seeing as Canada had plans to invade the US too, I'm still not offended. (nt)

[JackRiddler]

10. I'm not "offended" by evident insanity, but I'm alarmed when it's in charge.

[XemaSab]

11. Well put

:thumbsup:

[Ghost Dog]

13. Yes.

:thumbsup:

[Hawkowl]

45. +100 .nt

[JVS]

5. If I were in charge of the Axis, I wouldn't even want Spain in the war.

having them join in would have just made a more difficult Western border to defend

[Ghost Dog]

6. Well, that appears to indeed have been the conclusion

of the negotiations symbolised by the Hitler-Franco meeting at Hendaye in October 1940 (even though UK had been expected to easily fall, in which case, would FDR have had his way in the end?). And Spain was apparently judged more useful as a trade-route of sorts between Germany and certain US corporations, for example, at the time...

[JVS]

7. Yep. A good cordon sanitaire is often better than a weak ally.

[proteus_lives]

23. Yep.

German quote from WWI about Austria-Hungry,

"We are fettered to a corpse."

[Diclotican]

25. Ghost Dog

Ghost Dog

In 1940, Spain was in no shape to going into a modern war, as it was out of a sivil war in 1939, and the country was devestated, most of the infrastructure and the bigger City's was ruined by sivil war, and good help from the new Luftwaffe who bombed sivilians more or less from 1936 to 1939, when Franco finally got into Madrid, and power, over a ruined contry..

Even tho Hitler really wanted Spain into the war, as an allied of course, and promised vagly a Spain empire of sorts in parts of Africa and South America, as he was sure that after UK was devestated, South America and the rest of America would fall easy to the might of the German Airforce, and naval forces.. Even before 1939, when Hitler started WW2, it was drafted up an german "colonial dept" where the english and france parts of Africa was drafted in as german colonies, and where also the northen parts of America, aka, USA and Canada was parts of the greater german empire...

Franco, who was a smart politican (after all, he was not the most senior high ranking officer in Spain when the sivil war stated, he was just the man, who was smart enough to be in front when the sivil war started, and also the one who survived the spain sivil war, and also the man who was smart enough to take the power, and keep it to his dead in 1974) understood that Spain was in no shape to wage anything near a modern war, even tho he might sympatize with Hitler greatly, he was able to understand that Spain had to leave this war alone, and let the bigger boys play with its toys, rather than risk his own neck on this.. And he was right, Spain was a trainwreck, who was not rebuild long until the 1950-1960s, and even then Spain was a poor contry, with a poor population, for many decades.. In the 1970s, and 1980s spain exported thousands of spaniards, who was traveling to other nations, to work, and to send money back to family and friends... And it looks like it repeat itself today, as the economy in Spain is a wreck, thanks to the banks who have more or less ruined the economy... But as they say, thats another story again...

And both the allies and Germany had use of Spain as a nautral state. Spain was in the 1940s a country where every intelligence had their own spies, to spy, and contra-spy on everyone and everyelse, and specially the bigger City's could be somewhat of a intelligence base or allmoust everyone who wanted to spy, or had something intelligence to sell. And it was also a country where Germany until early 1944, could resuply, and the men aboard war ships, like the submarines could get medical help, or other things, as the need araise.. To to say, the wounded german soldiers, could be sendt back to Germany by spain train service, off course on the pay from the spain government.. That way Germany could be given the soldiers, even when the german ships itself could not be recovered becouse of the war... After the war, Spain was not welcomed into the "good firehouse" mostly becouse of the regime who still ruled Spain, and it was more or less shunned on the international stage untill the cold war was in bloome, and the big players needed one to be friend with, who defently was NOT sympatizised with the red menage.. And the agin Franco was defently not any pinky, and therefore could be trusted to a degree... And from mid 1950s, Spain was one of many country, where US was paying for some services, like spying on specailly eastern european shipping who was traveling true the straits of Gibraltar. And US also paid Spain, rather handsomely to build a military base, who started opperatin I guess, from mid 1960s.. But it was not until after Franco was out of power, and a new, demcratic government, was in place that Spain also was taken into the fold at NATO. Even tho Spain had been a defacto member of NATO since early 1970...

Diclotican

Diclotican

[Ghost Dog]

31. Yes, Diclotican, that's absolutely right,

from what I hear.

Although I've read recently that one German option seriously considered would have involved (temporarily?) occupying the Iberian peninsula and islands as part of the war effort (locations for air- and submarine-bases and supply-sources would have been significant?), not relying much on Spain's, as you say, already exhausted condition. For which Franco's agreement needed to be sought, because otherwise, well, history would have different.

The potential (continued) carving-up of Africa, North Africa, Middle-East and beyond would have seemed very significant to all concerned, I reckon, at that time.

Anyway, it didn't happen. Not that time around...

[Diclotican]

36. Ghost Dog

Ghost Dog

True, One option for the german Head Command in the early 1940s, when it looked like Germany would not just win the war, but also dominate the whole of Europe, parts of Africa, and Asia, and maybe even start an bombing campagn of US eastern shore coastline, by long range aircraft from Luftwaffe (they even had plans of big hangarhips, who one was nearly compleating in 1944, when Speer closed down the program, becouse the aircraft would never be finished, and the rawmaterial was needed elswere.. The hangarship was taken as spoils of war by the russians in 1945, and later, I have been told, sinked by russian naval forces in 1946, as they had no more use of the rest of the ship, they had posible more or less tearing it upside down to know the secrets I presume... But that is another history I guess, in the shaddows of the cold ware who started a year earlier..

But yes, Hitler and the High Command really had an plan to occupy parts, or the whole of the Iberian Penisuala in the early 1940s, as part of the war effort.. Specially the Islands in meditarian and the Atlantic was indeed parts where germany was interesting, to controll bigger parts, and secure routes for naval and other forces.. Until 1941, Germany had also some mercant ships, who was trying to stay away from the allied naval forces, who had been trying it best to enforce a naval blocade of germany.. It was not an easy task when you look at the map, and until 1941-42 it was rather easy for mercant ships to travel to other nations, buy stuff they needed, and even manage to get back, even back to german occupied habours, where the goods could be sendt bak to Germany itself.. After 1941 it was more or less hopeless for mercant ships to even try to do it, and most of the mercant ships, was either sinked, or used closer to coast, where they could have some protected from allied bombing.. After 1942-43 it was more or less hopeless, and most of the mercant trade was suspended, and most of the ships either bombed, or used to send soldiers and equipment from one parts of occupied Europe to other where it was needed more.. Norway with it long coast, was a painfull coast for german forces as they often was attaced by allied U-Boats, some of them was in fact parts of the Norwigian Naval arm, who was more or less rebuilded in UK under the war, most of the Airforce and Army was also by 1945 rebuild under the war, and a rather different Army, Airforce and Naval force was coming back to Norway in May 1945.. Before it was a rahter political arm of the government, where the officers was more afraid of their soldiers, than of the enemy, and many also sympatized with germany becouse it looked as Germany at least managed to get the working man in their place (many have said that if it was not for the world war, the political troubles who had been breewing in Norway since early 1920s could have exploded, it was defused by our then King Haakon, who was standing over the political troubles, but also by the german attac, who more or less galvanized everyone against an comon enemy - the germans.. Many actions under the start of the war was full of quistable, but the actions by the King, who acted as an gentleman, and a suporter of our constutition, was winning many over, even the most radical left wing, had to admire a King who told the allmighty Germans to go to hell... (he never used that term, but they got its message and wanted to bom him, and the family to smal pieces but never sucesseded)


But if Spain had either been a silent allied to Germany, or outright occupied by Germany the history would had given a worse outcome, speically when you are seeing on a map, and the whole war effort in the Meditarion would have been a horrible slaugher for the allied forces in Alexandria (where the HQ for GBs naval forces was. Gibraltar is an iceland, who would had been tried to be overrun by germany of they had the forces to do it, and with Gibraltar, the whole of the strait of gibraltar would have been closed down and the british forces in the Meditarian been closed more or less off from the rest of the empire. Wel, they could have used the Suez Canal more, but the Canal was not able to handle the biggest ships in the UK Naval forces, and therefore, for the most part the UK naval force in Meditarian could have been just a destroyer one.... But as it were, it was hard enough for UK, specially after Crete was occupyed by german forces, and Malta was been tried to be bombed until it should have lost it, but it never did, and was rewared collectively to all who lived on the Iseles, one of the most prestigues medals the UK had to offer for time of war. No smal feat for a couple of icelands, who a smaler than many suburbs in US..

You might wage a war with Destroyers, but you do not win a war, if the other side have battle ships in their hand, as Italy had.. Even tho Italy was rather draging their feets to put their bigger guns into actions.. I guess the generals and Admirals was not happy about the war at all.. Italy was not ready for the war either, untill the start of the war, Mussolini tried to convince Hitler to calm it down - for a year or two, and stated in a letter that Italy could not get into war, untill early 1942-43, as they military preparness was not finished yet... But Hitler got airy, and started the war anyway.. And Mussolini was in, untill he ended his life, in the hand of some who wanted him dead, he, and the mistress he had, was hanged in gallows, upside down in 1944, months before Hitler killed himself in April 1945... he killed himself, largly becous he do not wanted to end up as Mussolini did, and he was not willing to be captured by the russian red army either, and therefore he killed himself, his dog, named blondie, and his wife Eva Braum.. Or as she wrote, Eva Hitler, born Braum.. A day later she was dead, and the 3 reich was dead with them....

And the rest is history as they say:

Diclotican

[Kaleva]

40. Although the taking of Gibraltar (Operation Felix)....

may well have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis in North Africa and the Middle East as the Brits would have had a dickens of a time supplying their forces in Egypt.

[Ghost Dog]

43. There would have been one hell of a battle for the Strait of Gibraltar.

That's where my father was: British 8th Army. Montgomery. Young volunteer despatch rider from Yorkshire. Norton 500s. North Africa, Middle East, Anatolia, Italy.

Learned two lessons above all, he said, basically: Never trust an officer, and, never volunteer for anything.

Edit: He reckoned at the time, though, that there were plenty of willing fighting men and resources in the 'Empire' further to the East and South (especially India/Pakistan as was) to be drawn on even if 'Old Blighty' itself had temporalily been taken.

He also said, years later: "Those were the best years of my life." On his deathbed he was still having 'nightmares' about what he'd seen.

[Diclotican]

49. Ghost Dog

Ghost Dog

True, the british would have put everything they could spear, to risk everything whatever to not let the axis win Gibraltar... Gibraltar was, and indeed even today is to important, to let just everyone comand the Gibraltar. UK is still in scarge of the place, and I really dobut that UK willingly wil give away Gibraltar, even to a democratic Spain... Even if Spain was to make more mess about the border crossing that they are doing today... Spain have also tried, unsucsfull to take it up with EU, with every other international bodies.. To no luck I would say, Even that Blair, early one is his government wanted a "shared" government between Spain and UK, with the posibility that Spain one day would take over the responsibility for Gibraltar. The whole consept was blown to small pieaces, both by his own government, but also by everyone on Gibraltar, who was angry to say at least. And the whole consept of Shared government by Spain and UK, kind of blow over, and UK still have the sole sovernegiy over Gibraltar..


And yes, indeed many officers was not capable of doing what was requested of them, to long into the war, mostly becouse they was not capable of waging a war in the modern time. They still belived trench warfare was the norm, a norm where ten of thousands of ordinary men should be sendt into the abbyss, to be killed by the enemy, and where small victories would came from thousands of dead soldiers (who by the standard of the day, was mear cannon fooder anyway, as officers was a whole other breed than the soldiers, often they was not even of the same class, as officers in most country's was upper classes, but soldiers of the working class)

And as your father did, thousands, maybe millions had to pay the prize for the horrible they was experiencing under war. On both sides. The nightmares they had to endure for so many decades, was the prize for the "victory" their generals, their officers could celebrate when the war was over.. Many of the great officers, was maybe not even paying that prize, as hey never was in combat, as many young soldiers was.. Maybe many of them was to young too..

And as you also point out many told that it was the best years of their life. Even tho they was paying a horrible prize for it all, by the nightmares...

And, I doubt that UK would have given into Hitler, even if UK itself had been occupied temporaly.. The british government had plans to leave for Canada, who was one of the dominions and one of the few places the germanns could not be able to attac for a long time.. And UK also had the ressourses of the BIG colonies that UK had untill the end of the world war two... India, Pakistan, and many other places, was part of an empire, who was full of soldiers, full of ressoursew, who could be ruled from Canada also... And I belive Prime Minister Churchill would have doing everything to get UK back...

The nazis had their plans for an occupying of the british iseles... The History Channel had a two or tree part serie about the posibilites.. It was a nightmare to watch.. Mostly becouse it thankfully never happened... UK was one of the few beacons of freedom in Europe between 1939 and 1945. Even if UK was devestated by the war, and had to get go off his imperium.. UK survived at least...

Diclotican

[Ghost Dog]

50. Yes.

BTW, where I referred to "India/Pakistan as was" earlier, I should have said more like "India/Pakistan/Bangladesh". I'm sorry.

[Diclotican]

52. Ghost Dog

Ghost Dog

I got what you meant, as it orginaly was India/Pakistan. Bangladesh was part of Pakistan untill difference in oponion between West and East Pakistan ended up in another nation, Bangladesh.... And it was a nasty sivil war case there too, as the rest of Pakistan for a long while wanted to have what become Bangladesh for allmoust all prize...

Diclotican

[formercia]

30. ...along with Target Folders

for critical infrastructure. Every Empire wannabe does it.

[Yupster]

42. Hitler met with Franco after France fell

to convince him to join the Axis with allowing German troops through Spain to take Gibralter as their mission.

Franco assured Hitler Spain was eady to join the war as soon as Germany could guarantee Spain a flow of a long list of raw materials, espacially oil.

Hitler later said he'd rather have all his teeth pulled than have to talk to Franco again.

It is a favorite what if of mine. If Hitler insisted that Spain join the war, Franco could hardly refuse after seeing France fall in six weeks. The Spanish Civil War was barely over and the Spanish military was full of pro-German generals who would have been happy to knock Franco out if he resisted.

So Franco would have allowed his friends to pass through. Gibralter would have fallen, as would Malta, and then probably Suez unless England agreed to peace. With the Meditteranean an Axis lake would England keep fighting, or would it reach an agreement before Malta fell.

It's an interesting what if.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. No doubt to "spread democracy" and get pelted by roses from the joyful inhabitants.

[Mojorabbit]

8. My mother is from the Azores

and though it has been 8 years since I have visited there, there is not a huge anti american contingent there. It is a lovely group of islands.

[Ghost Dog]

15. You don't have to feel generally anti-American to feel unhappy at the idea

of having to put up with active US military bases, heavy arm-twisting or even occupations in your immediate vicinity, I'd suggest.

But yes, from what I've heard, what you say re. Açores is true. :hi:

[Mojorabbit]

16. I totally agree

I was trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to point out that the citizens are mostly friendly to us in contrast to many other places because or despite the fact we have a base there. That in no way shape or form is any agreement with the plans the OP describes. :)

[Ghost Dog]

18. That base provides a hell of a lot of local jobs

and other economic stimulus to the local economy.

[JackRiddler]

12. Apparently, according to some here, it's okay to plan unprovoked acts of war...

and other crimes against humanity, as long as you're planning every possible crime you can think of, and only intend to do a few of them as made "necessary" by contingencies.

And if other states are doing the same, that's a justification too. Totally.

(Imagine if Iran was found to have contingency plans for an Israeli attack. What would this thread look like then?)

[Ghost Dog]

14. It's not OK by me, what the US plans these days

militarily.

I'd much prefer to see sensible forward-looking economic and social planning being more the norm, as is much more the case in China or even in Europe - developing clean renewable energy and other technologies and intelligent and accesible education and health service systems, for example...

[Posteritatis]

26. You expect the Pentagon to establish scenarios for establishing educational infrastructure?

I'm pretty sure there's other parts of the American government which are at least in theory working on that one, or at least were decades ago when this plan was written by the Department of Defense.

As much as people like to simplistically talk about "the US" whenever DU gets a kneejerkfest on over the existence of random war plans, the American government actually consists of a variety of branches and departments which are assigned specific duties and interests.

[JackRiddler]

28. This was not a random war plan. For starters...

It was a specific plan to commit a criminal invasion if the ongoing events in Portugal had gone in a way that Kissinger and Co. decided was threatening.

[Ghost Dog]

33. It's not 'normal' military contingency planning, it's the State Dept.

(under Kissinger in this case) requesting an actualised ready-to-go plan here that's the problem. ""We should have a program," said Kissinger". In the context of a potential 'euro-communist' popular revolt against a deeply corrupt near-fascist colonialist dictatorship.

And, do you really think, at the present time, there is anyone in authority in the present US Administration genuinely seeking to design and implement intelligent, integrated economic and social planning along the lines I hinted at (and I don't mean, just 'planning' to continue letting exclusively short-term large financial interests have it all their way)?

Or, are you just posting for the sake of argument, Posteritatis?

[Posteritatis]

17. They almost certainly do, and vice versa

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deeply ignorant of how geopolitics works. And so what? They'd be remiss in their duties to their respective states if they weren't thinking about that sort of thing.

Welcome to the real world.

[Ghost Dog]

19. Sure. But it's one thing to make plans 'just in case'

and for genuine defensive purposes, as perceived; it's something else to be actively executing an aggressive invasive geopolitical strategy rolling forward for purposes, essentially, of imperialist self-aggrandisement.

[JackRiddler]

20. No. It is remiss not to plan a way out of the philosophy of mutual (global) assured destruction.

This "real world" of yours is what human decisions until now made of it. Your logic has been used to justify every past barbarism, many of which we have overcome.

We don't get to say that only our own lifetimes count and we can destroy the planet or civilization if we judge that justified by contingency. There is no credible physical threat to the survival of the United States, if it chooses to lead the way in planning a world of peace instead of more war. From the perspective of the species, that is the only "realist" option.

[Posteritatis]

24. Alright, let's trust everyone else not to ever do anything bad

If they do, we'll just make up the response as we go along. What could be bad about that?

My logic you're so offended by justifies nothing other than "it would be nice to know what to do if Situation X ever happened," and your suggestions of what the Pentagon and other countries' general staffs should be doing instead suggests you don't exactly know that much about whose job it is to plan what sorts of courses of action in most world governments. You're doing the equivalent of being upset that the Department of Education isn't planning warfighting scenarios.

[JackRiddler]

27. All right, let "us" trust "our leaders" not ever to do worse.

Perhaps an important dividing line between you and me is that Kissinger is not "us." He is "them." He is the threat. A Portuguese revolution, not at all a threat to anything I'd ever consider "us." The biggest threats to US security in the world are those that the Pentagon and Co. create in their global search for new threats to justify the warmaking activity they advertise as "defense."

[JackRiddler]

37. kick

[JVS]

53. Plans never take into account the justification. Plans are made and if an event happens to prompt...

a response, then it is enacted. Iran almost certainly has contingency plans for an attack by Israel, and if they were waved around, they would be nothing more than an attempt to whip up outrage among the ignorant.

[JackRiddler]

21. Simple question for all...

Can you find a moral or for that matter defensive justification for the specific plan detailed in the OP -- to invade the Azores in case of a Portuguese revolution? "All kinds of plans are made" is not a justification. Speak to this plan, specifically: On what basis? How does it defend the US? What are its consequences? What does it say about those who would plan it? Would you be willing to be among those taking the beaches and occupying the islands, and willing to say: This is for our defense?

[proteus_lives]

22. I'm sure they had plans to invade the Bahamas too.

Plans are what a military/government do.

[JackRiddler]

29. Which justifies what?

I needn't worry about the plans of the murdering sociopath next door to commit mayhem across town, because I'm sure he has a lot of plans. Plans are what he does. Very few of them ever come true.

And this in defense of the key planner of the Cambodia bombings and the Pinochet coup.

(See Post 12)

[proteus_lives]

32. I'm not defending illegal acts.

I'm acknowledging reality.

I've read books about WWII policy and you know what they had? "Case *insert color here*" plans for every political/military crisis they could think about.

They had plans for Occupying Canada in case of Axis victory in Europe or plans if Mexico fell into anarchy, etc, etc.

I'm sure they have scenarios in case of aliens landing on earth.

How can you ask one government not to make these types of plans if every other government does it?

[JackRiddler]

34. Every other government doesn't do it.

I doubt the Bahamas have a plan for invading the US, or defending against a US invasion. Why bother?

I doubt Iran has a plan for a first-strike nuclear attack on the US, although they have a plan for being nuked by the US, since the US has plans for nuclear strikes on Iran.

I'm sure Costa Rica has no plan for performing any kind of military action against the US, while the US no doubt has a plan for invading Costa Rica.

Only one state has literally hundreds of active military bases outside its own borders. Plus a dozen carrier groups.

In large part you are projecting the imperialist mentality on everyone without exception, as a platitude -- "everyone does it"! The major powers can afford to wargame unlikely scenarios, and pick a few to develop to fruition. Most countries don't have that kind of budget. Many definitely don't have that inclination.

The US, which faces no physical threat to its survival short of superpower nuclear war, is still in a unique position where it could choose to lead the way in reducing tensions, effecting conventional and nuclear disarmament, ending the paranoia among nations. Instead it chooses to foment tensions, plan wars for everywhere, and execute several of these plans each decade. It is not like most other nations, most of which understand the benefits of scaling back on wars and military preparations and devoting capital to productive uses.

[Demeter]

35. Amen

And war criminals freely walk the streets of the Land of the Free and the home of the Brave...

[proteus_lives]

41. You would be surprised.

If they have a defense department, they do it. The same scale? No but I bet Costa Rica has a plan to deal possible aggression from Panama.

" doubt Iran has a plan for a first-strike nuclear attack on the US"

They will once they get nukes.

[JackRiddler]

44. No, I would not be surprised.

It no longer surprises me to discover sociopaths and sociopathic principles holding sway over the institutions of power. It may be the rule rather than the exception. Hey, I remember high school.

What surprises me sometimes still, not in your case, is the logical contortions and denials of reality that average people undergo to rationalize the sociopathy of the powerful, in fact to identify with it as something that is normal, acceptable, the way of the world, realist, can never be changed, etc. To the point where news that the US was on the brink of an unprovoked invasion of the Azores is met with platitudes and smugness about how everyone plans crimes, blah blah.

You keep distracting from the subject here. The OP is not just about a plan for an unlikely contingency, one of thousands of such plans that the sociopaths-in-power are in your view supposed to prepare.

It is about a specific intent to invade the Azores if the ongoing Portuguese upheavals led to a government that Kissinger judged unreliable. That's a much more specific, imminent plan to commit a crime. As it happens, the planners have already at that point committed far worse crimes with literally millions of victims in Indochina.

Again, do you care to justify that specific plan as something other than a plan for crime? (The technical term in criminal law would be conspiracy.)

[Major Hogwash]

38. Who was the President in 1975? The same guy that pardoned Dick.

The Republicans have had designs on world dominance since 1955, actually before then, but I feel safe in saying 1955 because that was when the Eisnehower White House decided to promote more help under the table to Vietnam behind the back of the United Nations.

What I don't get is why people ever trusted Kissinger after 1972.
After all of this became public knowledge back then.
He wanted to bomb Cambodia and Laos and not even tell Congress about it.
Then, when they found out, he said, no biggie, the American people back in the US didn't need to know who we were bombing.

Kissinger didn't believe in the Constitution's balance of power, he believed in dictatorial powers of the Presidency.
And the Republican party has adopted that concept ever since.

[Kaleva]

39. We had plans to invade Canada and they had plans to invade the US

It's something the military does.

[JackRiddler]

46. Rationalizations, general excuses, distracting from the case at hand.

By the way, the US plans to invade Canada, at least those from the WWI period, were recently made public. Can you point me to any material from any time in the 20th century or later concerning Canadian plans for invading the US? I'd be very interested. Thanks.

[Kaleva]

47. Defence Scheme No. 1

"Lieutenant Colonel James "Buster" Sutherland Brown developed an earlier counterpart to War Plan Red called Defence Scheme No. 1 on April 12, 1921. Maintaining that the best defense was a good offense, "Buster" Brown planned for rapid deployment of flying columns to occupy Seattle, Great Falls, Minneapolis, and Albany. With no hope of holding these objectives, the idea was to divert American troops to the flanks and away from Canada, hopefully long enough for Imperial allies to arrive with reinforcements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

[JackRiddler]

48. Thanks.

It's interesting that this presupposes a US invasion and is therefore a genuine defense plan.

As opposed to many examples of preemptive preventive or just plain "we've decided we have an interest so let's go in" plans on the part of the US.

Care to defend Kissinger et al. in their idea to seize the Azores if Portugal went red?

[Kaleva]

51. Well, it was a preemptive plan

As the Canadians would have attacked the US if an invasion from the US appeared to be imminent but before the US actually attacked.

"Care to defend Kissinger et al. in their idea to seize the Azores if Portugal went red?"

The military plans for all kinds of contingencies and there is a big difference between planning on doing something and actually doing it. As far as I know the plan never left the paperwork exercise stage as I'm unaware of any actual movement and preparation of troops, ships, transportation, and supplies to carry out the plan.

[Rex]

54. Henry stays at home...maybe he can mentor Americas newest war crminal

GWB on which countries are safe to go to. Fucking war criminals always get away with mass murder, sad.

[NuttyFluffers]

55. y'know, i sorta enjoy these tidbits of history being unearthed now.

very educational. :7