"I say let the U.S. economy collapse. It’s not serving us anyway."

[marmar]

Published on Friday, November 19, 2010 by CommonDreams.org
Let's Build the New Economy

by Joe Brewer


We need to build a new economy, one that promotes widespread prosperity while protecting us against ecological disaster. The problem is that the current economy has been structured explicitly to extract wealth from the global commons and accumulate it in the coffers of an extremely powerful elite. And it is standing in our way.

I say let the U.S. economy collapse. It’s not serving us anyway. Now before you go off and think I’m just a heretic who hates this country, please hear me out.

The current economy is designed to:

* Encourage widespread home ownership, which straps people to a lifetime of mortgage debt;
* Mandate that health care only be provided through employers, which enslaves people to meaningless jobs they don’t like;
* Grow perpetually, which means that natural resources must be depleted to keep the gears turning;
* Accumulate wealth in the hands of those who control capital, which drives a wedge between the haves and the have-nots;
* Drive the creation of sweat shops all over the world that enslave billions in a cycle of perpetual poverty;
* Allow corporations to co-opt our democracy, by granting them the rights of legal personhood and defining money as speech;
* Ultimately destroy the foundations of human well-being, thus spiraling deregulated markets out of control.

As a result, we are seeing massive growth of public debt while a small portion of the population becomes more wealthy than the monarchs of past ages. These billionaires then build incredibly sophisticated propaganda machines to convince everyday citizens to support their exploitative system. ...........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/19-1

[BrklynLiberal]

1. I am sure that is what the repukes, bankers, and finance wizards all had in mind

when they did everything they could to destroy the economy....except for themselves of course. They took their winnings..and now don't give a crap about the rest of the population.

[Crazy Dave]

25. They're investing overseas and getting the tax breaks here

It's now easier for a company in China to get a loan from a US bank and US investors to build a factory that makes solar panels than it would be for an American company or entrepreneur to do the same here.

[BrklynLiberal]

36. Sad...sad...sad....

We ARE going to Hell in a handbasket.

[defendandprotect]

104. Worse than that ...they used private PENSION money to move jobs overseas ....

and to finance the housing "bubble" -- !!

Private pension funds were underfunded, as well -- regulators were not doing their

jobs especially against arguments that increases in pension funding were necessary.

For a decade and more now we've known that the private pensions are in trouble.


Meanwhile, Sen. Bernie Sanders says that the bailout money went out from the FED

at presumably 0% to .05% interest -- and that the recepients then used the money to

buy Treasury securities at .035% and .04% interest!!

Not only was it all a huge financial coup by criminals -- but they then used our

taxpayer bailout money to create even more profit for themselves!!

Anyoen think any of this should have been illegal?


And, evidently that's another reason why they weren't LENDING $ ....!!

[jtuck004]

163. They were traded treasuries for part of the, potentially, $140 trillion

in toxic assets that they held. It was an intentional plan for them to hold treasuries and be paid interest by the U.S. Government. Timothy Geithner's strategy, urged by Bernanke. Bernie is close, but better descriptions and references are available in books by Nomi Prins, Yves Smith, Barry Ritholtz.

Now we have one heck of a crop of toxic assets, created from borrowed money that are worth diddly.

He is correct about why they weren't lending. Why take the risk when you can get billions in risk-free money?

On the other hand, there is little demand for business loans today, despite all the hyperbole. There is a large amount of idled factory capacity sitting out there - no need to borrow money if your business has less demand.

[defendandprotect]

208. It was quite a financial scam, imo --

What you're saying that Geitner and Bernanke arranged was that we'd use Treasury securities

to BUY their toxic assets?

Obviously there is elsewhere a concept of money being LENT to them by the FED -- and in

confirming that, Bernanke continued to hold sway on NOT divulging how much interest was

charged. I'm sure you recall those discussions to push Bernanke to reveal the interest

charges? In fact, I think FED still holds the info PRIVATE as to who got what and at how much?

Sen. Sanders estimated 0% to .035% --- and why then would any interest from Treasury

securities also be paid to them -- why not returned to US taxpayers/government?

These companies should have all been nationalized and run or administered by government --

letting employees run the companies.

And LENDABLE FUNDS were being held in Treasury notes rather than lent to the public ...

as expected they would be.

I think overall Sen. Sanders outline of what happened seems more accurate --


On the other hand, there is little demand for business loans today, despite all the hyperbole. There is a large amount of idled factory capacity sitting out there - no need to borrow money if your business has less demand.

As long as there are people unemployed, government has to create jobs -- we should have

total employment as a goal. We've had decades of Greenspan, etal creating "worker insecurity" --

and we should be overturning these trade agreements. 50,000 factories were shut down over past

10 years or so. Some businesses are seeking to expand -- evidently those who can finance their

own way? Meanwhile, many stores are vacant, as well. But also many new businesses in our

area. If we don't get a new stimulus package -- and most of it was funneled thru corporations --

we will lose another million jobs. How many more houses will be lost - how many more families

harmed -- health of citizens destroyed?


-------------------



They were traded treasuries for part of the, potentially, $140 trillion
Posted by jtuck004
in toxic assets that they held. It was an intentional plan for them to hold treasuries and be paid interest by the U.S. Government. Timothy Geithner's strategy, urged by Bernanke. Bernie is close, but better descriptions and references are available in books by Nomi Prins, Yves Smith, Barry Ritholtz.

Now we have one heck of a crop of toxic assets, created from borrowed money that are worth diddly.

He is correct about why they weren't lending. Why take the risk when you can get billions in risk-free money?

On the other hand, there is little demand for business loans today, despite all the hyperbole. There is a large amount of idled factory capacity sitting out there - no need to borrow money if your business has less demand.

[jtuck004]

209. My opinion, they used the same tactics to fund their friends at the banks

with taxpayer money that were used to create a war in Iraq - oh my god, the world is coming to an end if we don't do this.

Instead of concentrating on jobs, and figuring out how to quit shipping boatloads of money to China they did everything they could to empty out the treasury.

I was doing some quick figuring the other day - about 30 million people are unemployed or underemployed (not by choice). To get unemployment down to 5% or so, we need to put 20 million of them back to work.

If we could create 250,000 jobs a month, the first 125,000 take up the new entrants to the job market, population growth, etc. This is fairly standard figuring, been this way for years.

So if you divide the 20 million by the remaining 125,000 jobs, it would take 13.3 years to accomplish this.

But we have never - NEVER - created 250,000 jobs a month, year in and year out in the history of the country. And we sure aren't doing it today.

And given that the largest growth in jobs is in retail and home health care aide, their earning capacity, and ability to pay taxes, is going to be less than half of the historical average.

So unless something changes, we are looking at somewhat longer than 2 decades until we see single digit unemployment again. And that's if we create more jobs per month than we have in the history of the United States.

Someone posted here a while back that any politician being elected should give us their plan for a "no growth" economy. I thought it was a great idea, because anyone that isn't seeing that is likely deluding themselves. And sending more money to the banks in the guise of QE2 is very likely not going to bring us any significant change in that jobs picture.

Doesn't bode well for the future...

[defendandprotect]

210. The stimulus is fading out -- if so, we'll lose another 1 million jobs ....

The point is that this is criminal activity masquerading as government administration.

We've had two years now of Obama creating more destruction -- failing to reinstate

New Deal regulations on capitalism -- especially Glass-Steagall. Without that what you

need is stimulus simply to keep more jobs from disappearing!!

That's simply one scam covering up another.

Think unemployement is something around 17% -- and 25 million with unemployed --

but has been a while since heard the figures -- Sanders guests often with Hartmann.

I think one day a week and you always learn something from them both!

We have to recognize the overall agenda to destroy the middle class -- wages/jobs

being a prime target.

We have a Congress of millionaire and multi-millionaires who are simply furthering

this agenda or allowing it to happen.

Agree with most of what you're saying -- but Americans have to understand this from

the highest perspective --

Really our future is in the hands of Global Warming now which the elite well know --

that may be why they are under the gun to dismantle any legitimate government we may

still have -- and any wherewithall of the public to respond. Shock and Awe --

And we are already in "peak oil" -- the complications of that simply on the automobile

and home heating/cooling are horrific. We need to be converting gasoline driven cars

to electric -- yet it looks like the alliance between oil industry and car manufacturers

contineus to hold!


Capitalism is suicidal in its attack on nature and humans --

that's one of the first of our systems we should be dumping.



:)

[TBF]

2. "So let’s begin the work of building 21st Century political and economic systems" -

I couldn't agree more. Capitalism only serves the very wealthiest, it is time to progress to a more equitable system.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. And our side has enough other assholes to buy into this nonsense...

creating not a new and better society, but more trouble and confusion.

(Haven't we been down this road before?)

[dipsydoodle]

4. The current economy is also designed to

pay for wars and its collapse could provide and end to that.

[Better Believe It]

11. The economic collapse in the 30's led to fascism and World War II

It could have had a much better outcome, but didn't.

[The Doctor.]

41. Yet somehow the US, England, France, Russia, and most other countries did not become fascist.

It was not the economic collapse, it was the opportunists who used it to gain power.

Not saying things would necessarily go better, but at the rate we're going, collapse is inevitable. Only this time, it will likely be accompanied by decades of climate chaos.

[pbrower2a]

62. France almost went down

Actually, France was tottering on fascism throughout the 1930s and barely avoided going into the Dark Side. French fascists got their way under the Vichy regime.

[Crunchy Frog]

98. Russia was functionally fascist IMO.

I consider Stalinism to be a variant of fascism.

[defendandprotect]

121. Yes ... J. Edgar Hoover always made a point of calling it "totalitarian communism" or

"totalitarian socialism" -- to make clear it was a dictatorship --

others preferred to condemn simply communism and socialism --

However, while I know way too little about this time, but I think that US

played a role before and after the revolution in preventing a positive outcome

for the people?????

And just as we've evidently played a negative role after the fall of the Berlin

Wall and the end of the Cold War in preventing anything but a return to third

world status for Russians.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

166. I Don't Think You Can Blame Stalin's Reign Of Terror On "Capitalist Encirclement"

~

[The Doctor.]

132. I understand, but the point is nonetheless the same;

Economic collapse makes a nation ripe for many unfortunate things.

IIRC, Russia was pretty bad in terms of totalitarianism before the crash. Could be I'm missing a big chunk of history though.

[Crunchy Frog]

142. Russia was absolutely devestated by the effects of WWI.

To the point of social collapse enabling true totalitarianism to emerge (as opposed to the authoritarianism that prevailed before).

WWI really set the stage for Germany as well. Economic collapse coupled with total national humiliation.

I don't know what excuse our country has for slipping into fascism. It's been a slow steady progression since the time of Reagan, and the economic collapse is more a result than a cause.

[coalition_unwilling]

154. When you say 'Russia was . . . " I presume you are referring to the

former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (the "USSR")? Say what you will about Stalinism, a 'variant of fascism' it was and is not. Stalin continued the collectivization of the means of production begun under Lenin. Fascism in all its manifestations pursued a policy of state capitalism (where the means of production remained in private hands and was not collectivized).

Perhaps you are confusing 'totalitarian' with 'fascist.' One can easily make an argument that Stalinism was totalitarian, just as Nazi-ism was. But one cannot plausibly argue that Stalinism was or is a variant of fascism.

[Crunchy Frog]

159. That's a matter of opinion. My opinion obviously differs from yours.

The Stalinist type economic system has in fact been described as a form of state capitalism (try googling "stalinist state capitalism").

[Chulanowa]

176. Ah, actually?

They didn't become as Fascist as Germany, Romania, Italy, or Spain... but they weren't exactly "not fascist," either. All these governments basically copied each others' cliffnotes. It wasn't until war broke out that Fascism fell out of fashion with the "Allied" powers, when it was pretty much more a method of repudiating the Axis than an actual policy disagreement.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. The economic collapse in Europe--

especially Germany--began immediately after WWI. Mussolini was in power in the '20's. The Nazis and Italian Fascists got their start from the rubble left after WWI, not the Depression of the 30's. Had the end of WWI been managed better, Nazism & Fascism might have been avoided altogether.

[liberation]

60. Is it really that hard for some people to open a history book?

The rise of Fascism both in Germany and Italy had more to do with the aftermath of WWI and the nationalistic currents of the XIX century which led to the creation of modern Germany and Italy.

Spain became a fascist state because the West decided that the left, who was in power there when the civil war broke out, was more "dangerous" than Hitler and co. and thus allowed the Spanish democracy to fall by sitting on the sidelines.

Neither the US, nor the UK, nor Holland, nor France, et al fell to fascism due to the economic turmoil of the 30s. Even though some business leaders in the West envisioned fascism as the best way to cope with economic crises.

[defendandprotect]

109. True -- Actually, during Depression, country moved to the LEFT ....

towards socialism --

Neither the US, nor the UK, nor Holland, nor France, et al fell to fascism due to the economic turmoil of the 30s. Even though some business leaders in the West envisioned fascism as the best way to cope with economic crises.

I'd also add that these capitalistic economic "crises" are also largely engineered --

as we've seen repeatedly!

[defendandprotect]

105. ...but how much of all that was engineered by elites? WWI ... and its aftermath ....

our corporate elites here -- Allen Dulles, Prescott Bush and wealthy GOP

financing Hiter --!!!

These things didn't happen by accident!

An economy is something we all engage in -- to benefit us all.

Their economy is something they manipulate for profits -- i.e., profit by crime!!

[elzenmahn]

123. Agreed, and that's the problem with his premise...

...the "activism" you're seeing today, through the TEAstroturfbaggers, is right-wing. If this economy collapses now without the masses seeing what is REALLY the cause, they we could head down the same path Germany did in the thirties - Zeek-heil, y'all.

The only way this would work is when enough people stop watching Foxy Noise, listening to the EIB Lardass and his copykittens, and to really start paying attention to their own deteriorating situations, BEFORE this whole card house collapses. If people haven't woken up prior to that, then this nation is permanently screwed, and will unfortunately take a bunch of other countries down with it.

[The Doctor.]

38. Shortcut; 'The current economy is designed to collapse.'

With Obama and the Dems essentially missing their chance to make real improvements, I'm afraid the long, slow, downward spiral has become inexorable.

The way the rich look at it is; 'Get whatever I can while it's on the way down.' with utter disregard for how that very approach is what causes the descent.

[liberation]

61. I don't think it is "designed to collapse" that would give these idiots too much credit.

Our current socioeconomic system is basically unsustainable. There are many issues, but the easiest systemic flaw to notice is that a system which depends on infinite growth is sort of not very well suited to cope with our "finite" reality.

The sad realization is that at the most basic level, most people who we consider the "elite" in our current system don't really know what the fuck they are doing. And most people don't want to contemplate the ramifications of that fact, so they chose to live in denial.

[defendandprotect]

114. Ah ... this is not about stupidity ... this is about engineering ....

much of this instability is planned --

Recall Nixon talking about injecting some "uncertainty" into the Stock market --

Did the public wonder why?

Stability serves the public, democracy, freedom -- but elites can't make much money

during those times. It is speculation finally -- up's and down's of the market which

create great wealth for the few.

Basically Wall Street again became a Casino --

[bvar22]

186. Wall Street does not create "Wealth". Wall Street creates Money.

"Wealth" is created by labor engaged in Value Added activity.
Even the processing of Natural Resources (Timber and Minerals) requires much Value Added labor before it becomes wealth.
If all we had were Wall Street and Insurance Companies, we would have plenty of Paper, but no "wealth".
THAT is why channeling Public Money to these two parasitic institutions is so obscene.

[defendandprotect]

212. "Wealth" I was taking about was from scams and criminal activity ....

and why I referred to Wall Street as a "Casino" --

That could only happen AFTER New Deal regulations were removed -- because it is

criminal profit.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!



:)



Ah ... this is not about stupidity ... this is about engineering ....
much of this instability is planned --

Recall Nixon talking about injecting some "uncertainty" into the Stock market --

Did the public wonder why?

Stability serves the public, democracy, freedom -- but elites can't make much money

during those times. It is speculation finally -- up's and down's of the market which

create great wealth for the few.

Basically Wall Street again became a Casino --

[The Doctor.]

130. Well, 'design', at its most innocuous, by default.

I believe to a certainty that many of the so-called elite did not sleep through their social philosophy and economic theory classes. I have very little doubt that many of these people know exactly what they are doing, and are doing so with a twisted underlying philosophy.

At least a handful of these people, and plenty enough of them have hinted at it, believe that prosperity can never make it into the hands of the people because the people will consume at a proportionate rate to themselves. They defend their pillaging of wealth as a necessity to prevent the lower classes from consuming every available resource on Earth.

That's how many of them justify the economic engineering. The rest simply don't give a shit.

[defendandprotect]

107. Wow ... what a great idea that would be .... Dems refunding these wars since '06!!!!

[DCofVA]

5. I think that is the only way we will get real change,

change to an economy that works for all. And, it's not like we have to do anything. The current economy is unsustainable. All we have to do is nothing, and it will crash. What we can do though is, lay the foundation for the new economy so it can be put into place as quickly as possible.

[defendandprotect]

111. Well ... if money is moved to neighborhood credit unions ... they will lend for small business ...

right?

Personally, I think the big banks are laundering so much drug money they really

don't care very much about what we've moved to credit unions so far -- ????

[Turbineguy]

7. Starvation and needless

suffering are but a minor problem.

Point made. It's far from perfect. We don't have to kill millions to fix it.

[eilen]

96. That is already happening

actually it has been happening for years, we have just been externalizing it. Note the Vietnam, Iraq and Afghani wars. The Congo, Pakistan, -- India. I guess so long as no one sees it on tv every night, it isn't happening.

[Starry Messenger]

8. I rec'd for visiblity, but I disagree with his proposal.

"New Economy" has been a DLC buzzphrase for over a decade. http://web.archive.org/web/20000301184419/www.neweconomyindex.org/ It is a technocratic vision of an economy led by the "creative class" that thoroughly rides roughshod over the existing but threatened "old economy" of the working class. He's not proposing a new economy, he's trying to shine the turd of capitalism. A real "new economy" is not going to be led by a "revolution" of consultants.

edit: the comments section is a rewarding read. Some DUers may recognize an old friend in there doing noble service.

[eilen]

80. Seriously, I am not reading anymore Richard Florida BS

We should not be looking for growth. Unlimited growth is unsustainable. We need restructuring for a closed loop, participatory resource based direct economy. We deserve better than just sustainable don't we? Yes, that will require not necessarily creative people but for people to be creative. Most all people are creative, just don't exercise that talent because society has told them it is not valuable, they are not valuable; only productivity and increasing profit is. That needs to change. We are wasting our best resource, our people.

[jwirr]

103. Do you have some links to this kind of change? This is what I am

trying to read now. I am done reading the books about how boooosh got us here. Now I just want to know how to help get us out.

[patrice]

168. books:

Ravi Batra:
http://www.ravibatra.com/

Thom Hartmann:
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=thom+hartmann+books&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=2312581705&ref=pd_sl_41vdgb61en_e

Also see my post below on a related topic: re co-housing and intentional communities.

[ProudDad]

126. Then don't think "new economy"

because Steady State Economies are not really new...

"There are real conflicts among these visions of what constitutes a good society, and how to get there. As I look at these, I am struck by the realization that we may not actually have the choice as to which value should be uppermost. The natural world imposes absolute resource constraints – e.g., on water, fish, wood, and land – that, if used in one way, are not available for another use. Not to mention the limits on the atmosphere’s ability to absorb climate changing pollutants.

"If we start with nature as the binding constraint, the resource limits of a finite world mean that economic growth, as we currently understand the term, cannot continue indefinitely.

"If we must accept the end of economic growth as we know it, this means that social justice cannot be achieved through the Keynes’s or Krugman’s prescriptions. In a non-growing global economy there is only one way for the poor to have more: that is for the rich to have less. Please note: this means less stuff, not necessarily less well-being."

http://steadystate.org/

[Starry Messenger]

144. Wasn't the author in the OP talking about "New Economy"?

Your link takes me to what looks like another think tank, which is what the author in the OP represents as well. I'm not a fan of consultant-driven think tanks in lieu of social revolution. There is no way things are going to change without millions of people at our backs, and I pretty much doubt that these various big-brains with fully-formed plans are going to be at the head of the crowd. Nice website though. I'm saying this to be mean, it just that history is pretty clear on what brings economic change.

[ProudDad]

147. The only "social revolution" that can work

is one building a new paradigm...

There has been NO substantive "economic change" in the last 10,000+ years. Until just recently when the human race, with the short term heroin fix of cheap fossil fuels, overshot Earth's carrying capacity...

It's the end of the ride and that's why the economy is collapsing. We don't have to force it to collapse, our job is to prepare ourselves and our communities to survive what's coming...

Building resilient, relocalized, steady state economies is what we must do...

[Starry Messenger]

152. Well, I agree that the present system is bad for the majority of humanity.

I am anti-capitalism, and want to see it gone. I'm just not clear on what this "steady state" plan entails. I'd like to see something that was built by the wishes of the people. I'm not sure what building a new paradigm means to people who are struggling. I'm not disagreeing with the basic point that things are bad and need to change, just to be clear.

[ProudDad]

189. Here's one initiative that's becomming viral...

www.transitionus.org

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marmar]

20. And such an enlightened response.

[jpak]

37. Yeah - the Enlightened are OK with condemning the Amercan People to a Great Depression

with all the privation and misery it would entail.

I wish to revise my remarks...

this is a *fucking *stupid post

yup

[sabrina 1]

51. You must not have noticed that for millions of Americans

the Great Depression has been here for several years, and growing. But, if you are not one of them, I suppose that wouldn't matter to you.

I agree with the OP. We need to stop handing over trillions to corrupt Wall St. bankers in an effort to save their rear ends from being prosecuted for what they've done to this country. All that money would be better used creating jobs for the American people, something THEY will never do.

[jpak]

57. Ignorance of history and current economic data is no excuse - we are not in a Great Depression

Obama saved us from one - but that's beside the point

Destroying the livelihoods of the American People for some sickfuck economic fantasy is wrong.

If this is current Progressive Thought - count me out.

yup

[eilen]

81. Maybe he saved you. Big whoops. Bully for you. nt

[jpak]

88. Obama save the jobs of millions of Americans - including GM and Chrysler

and the supply chain for Ford.

Jobs that the Enlightened would have gladly seen destroyed - for what gain?

Bully for Obama

yup

[eilen]

92. He may have save the corporations but the jobs

suck even worse than they did before.

Unions Yield on Wage Scales to Preserve Jobs

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/business/20wages.html?_r=1&ref=labor

In years past, two-tiered systems were used to drive down costs in hard times, but mainly at companies already in trouble. And those arrangements, at the insistence of the unions, were designed, in most cases, to expire in a few years.

Now, the managers of some marquee companies are aiming to make this concession permanent. If they are successful, their contracts could become blueprints for other companies in other cities, extending a wage system that would be a startling retreat for labor.

Though union officials said they could not readily supply data on the practice, managers have been trying to achieve this for 30 years, with limited results. The recent auto crisis brought a two-tier system to General Motors and Chrysler. Delphi, the big parts maker, also has one now. Caterpillar, back in 2006, signed such a contract with the United Automobile Workers.

The arrangement was a fairly common means of shrinking labor costs in the recession of the early 1980s. At the end of the contracts, however, wages generally snapped back up to a single tier. At G.M., Chrysler, Delphi and Caterpillar, the wages will not be snapping back.

Within this generation we will know what it is like to be a Chinese factory slave. I wonder if these companies have dormitory plans in the works?

Ford's supply chain? Most components made overseas. The Fusion is Made in Mexico.

Since 2005, the Ford Focus has been assembled in Wayne, Mich. Even though it’s built in the U.S., the Focus’ domestic-parts content – the amount of American-sourced parts in the car – has been decreasing over the years; it now sits at 50 percent for the 2009 Focus. The Focus has steadily decreaed in domestic made parts although it is "made in Wayne, Michigan".
http://ask.cars.com/2009/07/is-the-ford-focus-made-in-america.html
The Focus has gone from 75 percent domestic-parts content in 2007 to 65 percent in 2008 and now 50 percent. This isn’t unheard of with new cars, and it can change from year to year. In our American-Made Index we require at least 75 percent domestic-parts content to qualify; the 2007 Focus was ranked fourth in our June 2007 index.

[caseymoz]

119. By modern standards, this is a depression.

Hardly a great one, but it also isn't over. Not nearly over.

[defendandprotect]

213. Auto industry should have been NATIONALIZED and --

run under government supervision -- letting employees run the factories.

There is NOT ever simply one way to understand a situation - bailout or no bailout --

NATIONALIZATION is also a legitimate response.

Same for the criminal banks -- !!

[patrice]

84. Please comment on the composition, size, and ownership of the Derivative Crash of 2008.

Do you REALLY think that's all over and done with?

MOST of the hard information about it is PROPRIETARY. Ya think that MIGHT have some effect on how the President proceeds with a national agenda?

[jpak]

90. Let me get this straight - you WANT economic collapse?

I don't

yup

[patrice]

91. No I don't. But I am free enough to be able to evaluate whether it may have, in fact, already

occurred and we're just moving deck chairs around on the Titanic.

Estimates of the size of the Derivative Crash of 2008 are from 50-100 times the GNP of the U.S. in a given year. "We" have no idea and no legal means by which to determine what portion of the owners of that loss are FOREIGN. Even if we knew something that approximated its actual size and ownership, those owners can't tell us its COMPOSITION and even if we had some grasp on all 3: size, ownership, and composition "we" would still be incapable of dealing with the weakness that it introduced into our domestic financial sector, because the "accounting" processes, by means of which something called "value" is defined for the size of whatever, owned by whomever, - - - those "accounting" processes were not only proprietary, each and every one of them was uniquely proprietary. In short, ALL of them were/are making it up as they go* and there isn't SHIT that the oh!-so!-so!-TOO-BIG-government of the U.S. can DO about any of it, except enslave the people of this country to stabilizing the whole thing again AND THAT INCLUDES ITS FOREIGN OWNERS.

Now, tell me about being "out of a Depression", please!

*on edit - Not to mention the fact that "it" is nothing, to begin with, but 0s and 1s shuffled back and forth between privately owned computers.

[defendandprotect]

115. Agree ... and if we move the $$ to credit unions locally...they will lend to small business and

the community? Right?

I thought that plan was terrific -- was just expecting an attack and/or "scandal"

being used to undermine the credit unions!!

And I also think that the records of this "Great Recession" will one day show it has

been a depression.


:)

[ProudDad]

125. You should study up some...

The USAmerican Ponzi scheme that you think is an "economy" should die - and quickly!

The OP has a link to the new Economics for sustainability -- Steady State ReLOCALized economies that are scaled to promote local resilience and a must better quality of life...

The current "economy" based on Vampire Capitalism and exploitation of the Earth's resources in order to increase the wealth of the very few has been shown to be a failure and must be eliminated!

Check it out: http://steadystate.org/

No misery involved -- well, except for the very rich -- they're going to be REAL PISSED! :nopity:

[caseymoz]

117. I think it's better said as: this is a bad idea.

If this economy collapses, the government system collapses. With our population and depleted resources, there is no end to the death and misery this could cause. We might not get a government or economy again for . . . centuries. Ask Somalia how hard it is to put a government back in place. Not to mention that our population is armed to the teeth, and one industry that's bound to thrive in that circumstance is the munitions industry.

Anybody who's romanticizing this, or saying that this would be the solution to our problems, is irresponsible or utterly insane. It's worse than the fundies with the Rapture, because at least in their mind, something is iron-clad guaranteed by God. That's hardly the case here, where you're trusting good ole human competence and incorruptibility to do it right the next time. Yeah, I feel better already.

It might be moot, it might be inevitable that our economy collapses if we can't reform it, but it would be a catastrophe, not a method or remedy. It's the exact thing you must avoid.

[Knight Hawk]

156. Yes!

You are absolutely right .Before anyone calls for a total collapse they better think it through a little more.The people in the middle class and below would be totally squashed in my humble opinion.Keep trying to greatly modify what we have.It is going to be very difficult to say the least .We just had the American speak in an election,how do you like what they said?

[Countdown_3_2_1]

10. A collapsed economy means YEARS of harship for the poor.

collapsed economy = misery for the poor. and the destruction of the middle class.
The rich will either leave or weather out the storm more or less intact.

There is no reason to induce suffering just to change an economy.
--> Not when simple education will do. <--

Better to fight the good fight and TRANSITION economies with the blessing of an informed electorate, than to deliberately induce suffering.

[TheKentuckian]

18. There is no transition because those that benefit from the current system are firmly in control

Nor are those in charge favorable to conditions that even approximate a well informed electorate.

You also have no formula to compare which path creates the most pain, there is no evidence whatsoever that "fighting the good fight" doesn't create more widespread suffering or a much more protracted time period, the likelihood overwhelming that the continued environmental damage will multiply.

How many will starve to death, be maimed, or left without a home today to support this corruption?

Leave where? Even Sir Richard is just getting into orbit.

What wealth? They leave their property and they have worthless digits on a screen with a destroyed economy. They can't cash out as no such actual resource exists in exchange.
They will keep extracting until a stop is put to it and the harm will mount, rather than remaining stable or decreasing with time.

[Swede]

12. How many will die in the large cities?

Thousands? Millions?

[The Uncola]

13. Can neither rec or unrec this one.

I agree with the stated problems, just not sure that your "cure" won't do more harm than good.

[marmar]

24. It's not "my" cure......I posted an article, n'est-ce pas?

nt

[The Uncola]

26. A generic "your," not ...

... a personal one. Maybe "this cure" would have been clearer, mea culpa.

[ProudDad]

127. Did you read the article?

http://neweconomicsinstitute.org/content/new-economics-21st-century

Steady State Economy -- not more of the same bullshit that is destroying the Earth...

[Mika]

14. Makes checking out Latin America's socialist Bolivarian movement more worthy.

Cuba started the LatAm/Caribbean anti imperialist/corporatist ball rolling some 50 years ago.

Cubans had the face the austerity of the Soviet collapse - in the early 90's, which meant the loss of their primary trading partner and supplier of oil.

Now Cuba is doing well. Albeit a poor nation, and under the US's extra territorial embargo, but their social infrastructure is world class. The Latin Americas are looking at Cuba's successes and are building upon them, in full partnership with the Cuban government and the Cuban people.

Especially in these times, Cuba is a most welcome partner with most nations of the world, where the Cuban DRs and nurses, teachers, scientists, agronomists, etc etc are welcomed.

Cuban educators also created the "Yes I Can" international multilingual literacy program that has won several UN/UNESCO awards, and has taught millions to read and write.

The Cuban Ministry of Health doctors have created "Operation Miracle", a charitable program that has restored vision to millions around the world.

Cuba trains doctors and auxiliaries from all over the world at no cost to the students, under the condition that they serve in-need sectors of their homeland.

Cuba has even named its amazing Henry Reeve Brigade international emergency response team (consisting of over 25,000 health care and disaster recovery specialists) after an American Dr.

Plus, as mentioned, Cuba's infrastructure ranks as world class in social indices, rivaling some of the wealthiest nations.

Cuba is the only nation to achieve sustainability goals according to the WWF.

Cuba is a global leader in organic food source development (petroleum based agriculture is too expensive and too destructive).

These things happen because Cuba IS a part of the reality based world community.

The United States that has been condemned 19 years in a row by the world community in the United Nations for the unjust extra territorial sanctions upon Cuba.


Despite the hardships and sacrifice in the name of equity and fairness, despite the impoverishing intent of the US sanctions, Cubans have put into place full support infrastructure - education, health care, housing, equal rights, security, non corporate sovereignty.

{Anyone who thinks that a Castro forces this on an unwilling population needs their head examined (or, actually, needs to go to Cuba to see for themselves).}

We could learn a lot from Cuba. They've faced the worst and came out of it stronger and better off.



Cuba's President Raul Castro, left, with vice-president Jose Ramon Machado Ventura

---

[bvar22]

16. Look to The South...

...for the blueprint.
The changes in Latin America give me hope for the World.

Viva Democracy!!!!

[laughingliberal]

52. +1000 nt

[defendandprotect]

214. Agree ... but beware of new CIA violence against them. ....

that is after all the only way the right wing can rise!

[Odin2005]

33. +1,000,000,000,000

[leftstreet]

34. +1

[Strelnikov_]

15. The problem with collapse is that the system may not reboot

Or may reboot in a form much less desireable.

The Russian Revolution is one example. Collapse allowed a minor party, the Bolsheviks, to seize power.

Another example, the Nazis.

Here, could it be Kunstlers "Corn Pone Hitler"?

Collapse due to whatever cause, economic, climatic, resource/energetic (peak oil), is something to be prevented, if possible.

Unfortunately, the human story is rife with ignoring warning signs and the power elite resisting transition to a new paradigm, because their power rests in the current paradigm.


As our fifth strand, we have to wonder why the kings and nobles failed to recognize and solve these seemingly obvious problems undermining their society. Their attention was evidently focused on their short-term concerns of enriching themselves, waging wars, erecting monuments, competing with each other, and extracting enough food from the human peasants to support all those activities. Like most leaders throughout human history, the Maya kings and nobles did not heed long-term problems, insofar as they perceived them.

. . .

Like Easter Island chiefs erecting ever larger statues, eventually crowned by pukao, and like Anasazi elites treating themselves to necklaces of 2000 turquoise beads, Maya kings sought to outdo each other with more and more impressive temples, covered with thicker and thicker plaster, reminiscent in turn of the extravagant conspicuous consumption by modern American CEO's. The passivity of Easter chiefs and Maya kings in the face of the real big threats to their societies completes our list of disquieting parallels.

From Chapt. 5, 'The Maya Collapses', from 'Collapse: How Societies Choose To Fail Or Succeed’ by Jared Diamond

[eilen]

100. First, when you talk collapse.. it is not like it happens over-

night-- boom! economical collapse! Many think economic collapse is when the stock market crashes. Well, I have to say the market may or may not crash but that has no bearing on actual economy. Already we have economical wastelands in this country-- NOLA, Detroit, Cleveland, parts of Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, New England, Las Vegas etc., some are economical and environmental such as the Gulf. The camera is not focused on them so people are not paying attention. As long as it isn't happening in your little circle of influence you think everything is okay. This happens until some supply line issues occur such as food and gasoline. In the South a year or two ago there were severe shortages of gasoline. Then things get dire. Now we have already hit peak oil. Gas has been steadily increasing in price since the Spring-- over $3/gallon now here in NY-- and unless the government decides to federally subsidize it more, it will continue to increase.

There are already interruptions in the supply line for inner cities which are virtual food deserts. If the municipalities decide to cut public transportation d/t high costs, there will be hell to pay, and hunger will be on the rise. This makes it more imperative to get community gardens going up in the inner cities so healthy food can be available.

[bvar22]

17. Let it collapse?

I don't think there is anything we can do to STOP it.

The top 1% lived well during the Gilded Age and the Dark Ages.
They see what is coming.

[JackRiddler]

19. Exactly - the current economy has failed.

The rhetoric of "letting it collapse" makes it sound like we have a choice. Or as though the schadenfreude of leftists will be the cause when it does collapse.

The present system is an unsustainable failure. It must go, and it will go. At some point the delaying mechanisms will break down. We can start now replacing it with democratic socialism on a rational, ecological plan, or with the emergent corporate feudalism of paramilitarized high-tech panopticonized enclaves surrounded by wastelands of desperate poverty within a poisoned and collapsing ecosystem.

[Subdivisions]

43. Exactly my friend, it will collapse. Actually, it's already collapsing.

And despite Mr. Brewer's lofty goal of building a "New Economy", there is not enough accessible crude oil left in the planet to accomplish that feat.

[ProudDad]

128. An improved economic model requires no petroleum

just a new Narrative...

We need to let go of the stories and myths we've been force fed over the years ...

And write a new set of stories...

"Our specific problem is that our planetary life support system is being killed by a paradigm we legitimize. We're currently laboring under a meta-narrative, the sum of our dominant cultural stories, that the status quo is unchallengeable. We are taught to believe that the destruction and negative consequences of the Industrial Growth Society are an acceptable and necessary price of progress. We are assured that no alternative exists let alone one that would be better overall. We are bombarded with the notion that infinite growth is necessary for empire and debt repayment provides the only path toward continued progress and prosperity. This leads, for example, to the idea that we must grow the economy so we can afford to clean up the messes Industrialism creates. This narrative rejects the idea that maybe we should quit making these messes in the first place. Profit and power are seen as more important than people and planet as government and corporations collude to maintain a status quo designed to benefit the global elite at the expense of life.

"All this ignores the fact that humans are naturally innovative, inquisitive and intelligent. It denies our power to freely make new choices that strengthen those aspects of human nature that nurture compassion, creativity and cooperation. We are social creatures first and individuals second. We can raise awareness of this and how to benefit from it by remembering how to think and act the way nature works."

Transition...

[eilen]

219. +1000000!!!!! I wish we could rec individual posts. nt

[dgibby]

21. The collapse of the US economy is in full swing,

and by design,imo. The goal of the Globalist PTB is to level the economic playing field. Since it's impossible to elevate 3rd world countries to our economic level, the economies and standard of living/earning level of the US and other 1st world countries must be destroyed in order to achieve parity. That's what off-shoring is all about.

It's also what the Catfood Comission is all about. Once all the social safety nets have been eliminated, it will be easy to manipulate the working class into taking any job at any wage.

A hungry, homeless, uneducated populace will serve the PTB well unless, of course, we rise up and fight before it's too late. I hold little hope that we, the sheeple, will do this, though. We're much too complacent for that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Gee. What Are We Going To Do While You Geniuses Are Building A New Economy

George Orwell was right when he mused that some ideas are so bizarre only an intellectual can believe them.

[eilen]

85. Probably continue to pollute our air, trade imaginary money,

retire to Florida and stay in your air-conditioned little cubes behind the gates playing golf and continue to vote as if it makes any difference-- At least until you run out of clean water and uncontaminated food.

If you are unwilling to work toward new solutions and determined to let the old inequitable system continue, get out of the way.

[patrice]

87. 1+~ . . . but you left out: until SOMEONE does "Project for a New American Century"2.0 only

this time it's terrorists somewhere in the world pissed off at the U.S. about the small tactical nuclear weapons that are being staged in THEIR country, so they decide to do something about that, which turns out to be going after the source of those small nukes, the weapons factory on the other side of your otherwise idyllic LITTLE piece of American pie.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

165. I Can't Retire. I Am Unemployed And Have No Savings

What's your plan for me and the tens of millions like me?

[moondust]

23. How about

just dividing up the fruits of the GDP more equitably? There is no good reason to pile up almost all the fruits in the hands of a few, and it makes absolutely no sense in a consumer economy driven by demand. But that's how the cards have been stacked by the wealthy and their (mostly Republican) puppets in government.

[ProudDad]

129. Or one could stop believing that the GDP means anything...

It doesn't...

It is only a gauge of how distorted and deformed the "system" has been allowed to become...

It has NO bearing on meeting human needs or the needs of the ecosystem that vampire global capitalism is destroying...

[moondust]

143. GDP is probably not quite accurate.

GDP is a technical term. What I'm referring to is more like "the sum total of all the goods and services that Americans produce by going to work," to include everybody from the janitors to the CEO. Everybody plays some part in that total production but the cards have been stacked so that the people at the very top suck up almost all the fruits of all that labor.



Consumerism isn't necessarily bad if managed properly with attention paid to sustainability. But it won't work if nobody has the money to buy things which creates demand which in turn creates jobs--because all the wealth has been piled up in the accounts of a small number of people at the very top.

[ProudDad]

148. What you describe is what's happening within the old "economy"

We need neither the banksters or the ubber-rich in order to provide decent lives for all people...

We must unlearn the myth that we need them for anything...

[Dash87]

27. lol. The internet is funny...

I bet he typed that sipping a coffee and on a laptop - both made possible by the current economy (and his house too). Haha... :)

[Quantess]

29. He's going to love living life on the edge in a crashed economy.

He can get inspiration from watching old Mad Max movies. Maybe he'll enjoy driving around in frankenstein hot rods, shooting people, and stealing gasoline! Yeah, right. More like, he'll be suffering through crushing hard times.

[ProudDad]

131. Mad Max is only one of the possible scenarios...

Another is Steady State Economy enabling a Creative Descent to an equilibrium with Nature that allows all to be sustainable...

The bullshit Vampire Capitalist system so many are desperately trying to save is not going to EVER give us a sustainable, decent quality of life...

[sufrommich]

28. Because what could go wrong, right? If history has taught us

anything, it's that economic collapse is the path to utopia. :crazy:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

72. Economic Royals are already positioning themselves for this with smaller, more usable nukes, which

aren't in the "Defense" budget btw, but in DOE instead, so as we go off on our merry way, it's business as usual for them until somebody they have pissed off does another 9/11 only this time it will be in your backyard, because your city has one of the new "modernized" plants for producing these little nukes, which Russia and U.S. are spreading all over the Earth, with China waiting quietly in the wings to pick up ALL of the pieces. Then where will your little "revolution" be?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. I suspect most right-wingers think most left-wingers "think" like this.

Fortunately, they're wrong.

[ProudDad]

133. If you're right, then

Large air-breathing mammals are doomed for sure...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

179. Even if I'm wrong, they are. Your comment is not terribly relevant, however. N.T.

[ProudDad]

190. If you're implication that most left-wingers don't think like this

that is, that the system IS collapsing (and it must since Vampire capitalism has run out of resources to exploit)...

Then we'll be unprepared and perish...

[hfojvt]

31. I say tha idiiotic pieces like that are serving us even worse

Suppose you had a house that was a very poor shelter for a family of six. The roof was leaking and many windows were broken. Some people might suggest doing some repair, putting plywood and shingles on the roof and putting in some new windows. Not the moronic article of this piece. He thinks that since the house is so bad, the best thing that can happen is to burn the motherfucker down. Then we will all live happily ever after, and there will be no more envrionmental damage or poverty or greed. Talk about a tale told by an idiot. Oh, and to add to the analogy. This jackasshole wants to burn the house down when the family is sleeping inside. That's how he is gonna fix things - with destruction.

[ProudDad]

134. Obviously you read the whole article and

followed this link...

"Our specific problem is that our planetary life support system is being killed by a paradigm we legitimize. We're currently laboring under a meta-narrative, the sum of our dominant cultural stories, that the status quo is unchallengeable. We are taught to believe that the destruction and negative consequences of the Industrial Growth Society are an acceptable and necessary price of progress. We are assured that no alternative exists let alone one that would be better overall. We are bombarded with the notion that infinite growth is necessary for empire and debt repayment provides the only path toward continued progress and prosperity. This leads, for example, to the idea that we must grow the economy so we can afford to clean up the messes Industrialism creates. This narrative rejects the idea that maybe we should quit making these messes in the first place. Profit and power are seen as more important than people and planet as government and corporations collude to maintain a status quo designed to benefit the global elite at the expense of life.

"All this ignores the fact that humans are naturally innovative, inquisitive and intelligent. It denies our power to freely make new choices that strengthen those aspects of human nature that nurture compassion, creativity and cooperation. We are social creatures first and individuals second. We can raise awareness of this and how to benefit from it by remembering how to think and act the way nature works."

http://neweconomicsinstitute.org/content/new-economics-21st-century

Or this one

http://steadystate.org/

The fact that this "economy" WILL collapse is not in doubt. Capitalism has already overshot the availability of resource by over 50%...Vampire Capitalism is beginning to consume muscle tissue because it's already burned through Mother Nature's fat...

Our task is not to save a dying system but to create its alternative...

[hfojvt]

198. given a moronic title, then why should I bother to follow a link

to read the babblings of an idiot?

Of course, one could say the same thing about my opening line.

Except my post is right here, requiring no extra effort.

Since the Fact that this economy will collapse is not in doubt, then what is the need to waste time writing stupid articles cheering for people to let it collapse?

Here's another analogy. We are in a ship which you are sure is going to inevitably sink. Some people are bailing water and closing bulk-heads and patching holes, trying to prevent or lessen a potential catastrophe. You would rather cheer for its sinking since, of course, so many better alternatives are possible. I never once said, that better alternatives are not possible. What I said is that a collapse provides an intfinitesimal chance that a better alternative will emerge and it also provides a 100% chance of suffering on a massive scale to make the holocaust and WWII look like a summer picnic by comparison. Humans are naturally "innovative, inquisitive and intelligent". You do realize we are talking about the same species that created the gulag, the atom bomb and the automobile, don't you?

[ProudDad]

199. You seem to have read a different article...

The vampire capitalist ponzi scheme laughingly called an "Economy" is collapsing...

Our task is to prepare for its inevitable collapse and create resilient relocalized communities where we live...

For Dog's sake, we should NOT expect the Feds or the States to be of any help at all...

Humans not deformed by obeisance to a deadly dominator are naturally innovative, inquisitive, intelligent and rather kind to one another generally...

If I'm wrong then for SURE there's no reason to mourn our passing...

[Odin2005]

32. K&R

Capitalism must die.

[Rex]

35. Oh don't worry, the system is about to collapse. Just not in the way

most people think it will. If you are a part of the middle class, get ready to be part of the working poor. If you are already part of the working poor class, get ready to be homeless. It is a comin.

[bigtree]

39. it's never folks who are struggling pushing this shit. I guess they want us dead

. . . because there isn't all that much room between many of us and rock-bottom. What an asshole.

[patrice]

68. bingo. Apparently, it's okay for those who are on the edge to just be put on morphine or anti-depres

sants until they are no longer a problem.

[patrice]

95. Or in (privately run) prison, which is a growth sector in our economy.

[ProudDad]

135. Study up

We have an opportunity to live better lives NOT bigger and shinier psuedo-lives as "consumers" in a death culture...

http://steadystate.org/

[Codeine]

40. There are not enough Unrec buttons in the world for this shit.

Fuck this dumbass and anyone stupid enough to buy into his Comfortable White Boy Anarchism.

[patrice]

77. You should see them in McDonald's here in Cupcake Land, all decked out in their gansta clothes

some of the driving Hummers, some tatooed with that little black tear thingee on their cheeks.

You Bet they go to church for allowance and belong to oh-so-non-violent church "gun safety" clubs. :puke:

[pjahn]

112. Hear Hear

Comfortable white boy here who realizes that comfort is a rare and pleasant thing

[ProudDad]

136. Obviously you read the entire article...

right?

It doesn't sound like it...

[Taitertots]

42. How many people are you willing to watch die for your ideological purity? n/t

[lunatica]

44. The OP didn't write the article

[liberation]

64. And how many more people dying are acceptable for you in order to keep the status quo?

See that works both ways...

[patrice]

75. Indeed it does, so that puts us in a position of leverage on our issues, because THEY will almost

always opt for deaths that aren't right in our laps; they prefer proxy deaths, but their problem is that others, as 9/11 clearly demonstrates, are putting an end to that particular option, so THEY are damned if they do and damned if they don't, that's why there is such a premium on whom to BLAME for it all, do you thing they would have installed Obama if they didn't NEEEEEED to, meaning what we need to do is STICK TOGETHER and get our heads straight about what's really going on and, thus, what OUR order of priorities/demands is.

My point is that there IS leverage here if people would get clear about the whole thing, including the various players, and free themselves enough to consider what ALL of their options are for what they might DO about any of it.

Labels are dangerous. This needs to be about Issues.

[Taitertots]

218. More people are certain to die from crashing the economy than maintaining the status quo

How about we change things in ways that don't ruin the economy or cost more lives?

[ProudDad]

137. And you obviously didn't read it... (n/t)

[Taitertots]

217. Big on Boo hooism, with nothing of actionable substance

Trashing the economy with no idea how to rebuild it is certain to cost far more lives than maintaining the status quo.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. "This meal sucks, so I think I'll take a shit on the plate."

That'll help.

[patrice]

79. Nailed it! nt

[BzaDem]

46. Why do you think after your "collapse" the system would be to your liking, as opposed to even worse?

That's why I think these "collapse" posts are just desperate grasps at straws due to cognitive dissonance. They just assume that after such a collapse, they will get an economy they like (as opposed to a much worse economy).

[Warren DeMontague]

47. You would think that the founder of a "research center devoted to the application of cognitive and

behavioral sciences to politics." would be able to spell the word "hoarding" correctly, but I guess not.

presuming of course that our own cities aren’t entirely decimated by the hording of wealth by short-sighted elites.

[JNelson6563]

49. Is this any different

from those who will do all they can to let Rethugs seize all power so that the Dems can be taught a lesson?

Julie

[strawberryfield]

50. Bring it on

I have spent the last ten years learning how to be completely self sufficient. I own 30 acres of prime farm land without a mortgage. I grow all my own food, as well as produce all my own energy and fiber. I fix my own car and I make custom furniture on the side which people pay ridiculously high prices for. I have studied the history of socialism at length. I believe that the notion of every man owning his own labor has been replaced in the modern world with the notion that everybody owns everybody's labor. If capitalism dies tomorrow, I am ready, but I fear that one form of tyranny will be replaced by another which I will find equally abhorrent.

[Starry Messenger]

66. And if your crops fail in a patch of bad weather?

As Hannah Bell said so succinctly the other day, "I'll just whip up a train". ?? Your "solution" might be find for you for awhile, but is hardly worth emulating for long term.

[strawberryfield]

71. I am not telling you to emulate me

I do my thing and you can do whatever you choose. It's no skin off my nose.

[patrice]

158. That's why I like the idea of small collaborative cooperatives because they could define

and govern THEMSELVES based on the principle of Real Value (for example, labor) in exchange for Real Value, in the Adam Smith sense of those words.

[bvar22]

188. Nobody is completely self-sufficient.

People living in rural areas will be able to avoid starvation, but life will still be pretty grim.
Here is some 1st person info from someone who lived through the Economic Collapse in Argentina.

"Of course that those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard was enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities.

Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, and some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flower to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.
<snip>

After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches.

<snip>
The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community.

Some may think that having neighbors within "shouting" distance means loosing your privacy and freedom, but it's a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times.... Grow up"

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/10.08/tshtf1.html

The collapse in Argentina was small scale and short duration compared to what can (or will) happen here.

[ProudDad]

192. And you dug the resources, smelted and processed them

and built that car?

And did you build the roads you drive on or do you drive on the "Socialist" roads?

Tucson; where do YOU get your water. Is it from the Common's Aquifer or the "socialist" municipal water company?

It's admirable that you've been able to disengage from the monster as much as you have but most of us don't have the natural resource base, the piece of the Commons that you enclose, to draw from...

No man/woman is an island. We work and live in Community...

[old mark]

53. The problem I see is that after the collapse, we will look like a banana republic -

the rich in gated compounds, everyone else living hand to mouth. The lucky ones will have subsistance jobs, and the unemployed will live in cardboard boxes. No one but the rich will have health care or any social services and there will be no one starting them up again. Any "liberal" ideas will be gone and forgotten.

mark

[liberation]

63. ... and we're different from a Banana Republic how?

We already have the worst economic inequality in the industrialized world, and for a few years now we have entered the same wealth distribution characteristics of many countries which we define to be in the 2nd/3rd world in this hemisphere.

[old mark]

178. Just wait till the GOP takes back the government and Newt becomes president...nt

[defendandprotect]

124. GOP has been working on creating a "third world America" for decades ... take a look around!!

How many cities permitted to fail -- how many states in bankruptcy?

50 million citizens without health care -- and worse than that at the mercy

of criminal insurance companies!! Cars -- still gas guzzling -- cost as much

as houses used to cost! We have our children now with no job stability and

very few of them invested in private pensions -- all while our safety nets

continue to be dismantled and under attack!!

[ProSense]

54. Well, it's too late for McCain

but Palin is available.

I remember a similar argument in 2004, I wonder if those who made it were at the end of Bush's two terms?

The stupid burns.

[backwoodsbob]

55. let it collapse

I have corn and potatoes and carrots and other foods.
I have enough to live till next year and can pop enough deer to feed my family..let it all collapse

[Pavulon]

58. And someone has a 22 rifle

after they kill you, they now have your bom

[liberation]

65. Not everyone is an asshole...

... but assholes sure do love to project.

[Codeine]

122. That's nice for you, dear.

The land can't support an entire nation of backwoodsbobs.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

169. I'll be ok so fuck everyone else.

[jtuck004]

59. A lot of people died to keep this country out of the hands of tyrants

who would have enslaved us. They knew they had a good chance of dying and did it anyway.

Now we are populated by a whole raft of people who are afraid to walk away from a system that has accomplished every single thing the OP lists while the people at the top are continuing their campaign of robbery and pillage. The only thing that allows them to continue is our reluctance to stop the train.

Until we become emboldened enough to let it collapse, take the big hit and perhaps let a lot of people die, so that we have a chance to rebuild a new structure that denies the financial world the power and control it has today, there is nothing that will stop them.

If you have a chance go see the movie "Inside Job" and look at how our government,the largest business schools, and all of the largest financial institutions have been infiltrated with these traitors and thieves.

These people have been on a 40+ year campaign to wrest the control, and minds, of this country from the ideas of protection put in place during the Great Depression, and they have been very effective. It will take pain that dwarfs what we are seeing now to get that control back. And we will never get there until people understand they they have immense amounts of unused power at their disposal, and rid themselves of the idea that the problems are too big to solve.

from Farber's text:

...the hardest battle isn't with Mr. Charlie, it's with what Mr Charlie has done to your mind.

[patrice]

82. Speaking of what Mr. Charlie has done to your mind, "only" violence = limitation, i.e. not Freedom.

[jtuck004]

93. I don't agree. Violence is perpetrated on the lives of children, women, and men

every day by smooth talking politicians who preach that violence is a limitation, who have enabled 1% of the people in this country to take 25% of the wealth. Damn convenient, that, since abstaining from that violence keeps them in power, and continues to give them the ability to enslave people with debt. Violence is not only shooting guns - violence is also the women who died in Detroit a few months back, burning newspaper in her oven (set the house on fire) because her utilities had been turned off during an extreme cold spell.

Even DU has a rule against promoting violence - haven't seen a rule that prohibits hungry, cold women from being burned to death, however.

A week or so ago the Spokane City Council read a proclamation for the "Homeless and Hungry", an effort, presumably, to raise awareness. Several homeless mothers and their children had traveled on the bus to hear this and show their support, but the city council president said "city council chambers were no place for "restive children", and told them to leave". They had to watch from outside the glass walls while the non-violent proceedings took place inside. I wonder how many of those kids were just hungry.

It would be nice to say that violence is no longer a tool, yet when the very people one would appeal to with logic or patriotism have been bought off by the corporate interests and let violence be perpetrated in the lives of the poor, it would be irresponsible to ignore its utility.

That said, violence without education and without a goal is simply anarchy, and should not be the first tool used by those trying to regain power. Or maybe not at all, if it is possible to build parallel systems to replace those that have turned their back on you.

Or am I misunderstanding your answer?

[patrice]

94. That IS violence and it is where I think we should begin. We need professional cooperatives

that provide for fundamental human needs, beginning with those who are the most in need and proceeding proportionally to those less so and seed money for these cooperatives should be acquired from progressive taxation that either has no cap or has a very high cap. Maybe if we set them up to make a profit, the rich, who wouldn't need the services, but are still being taxed to provide them, could get a return on their investment.

I know this is a very rough sketch, but I don't know WHY we all don't talk about co-operatives more.

[jtuck004]

97. I have been a proponent for some time of employee-owned business

along the lines of Springfield Remanufacturing Company - they were closed by International Harvester for lack of profitability many years ago. A few of the employees got together and figured out how to buy the assets, and started hiring people back, then trained EVERYONE, from the janitor up, in reading the books, in cooperating with each other on committees that make the business decisions, etc. It's a pretty amazing story, and I think a model for what we could do in our communities. I think the Germans have a similar model on a much larger scale.

The problem is going to be teaching 165 million workers that their interests would be better served by taking on the responsibility of a corporation, and 300 million plus Americans that buying from each other could create a system that could exist outside of the current financial and political oligarchy.

Scary as hell, for a people used to kowtowing to others for their jobs. The wailing and gnashing of teeth would be deafening.

And I think it starts with exactly what you suggested. Those cooperatives would become nests of education and training, and build the corporations that would serve their members and communities. And you are correct, they absolutely have to make a profit, else they will die. At least history would seem to suggest that. But the profit would benefit many more people in the corp than just a few, the shareholders would be productive members, and the profits could be shared in the community and plowed back into spin offs. Referring back to Springfield Remanufacturing, they have created a number of small businesses that continue to grow under just such a system.

Getting money for this by changing the tax structure will be problematic because our current system is so thoroughly under the control of the people who would be our greatest opposition, and the strings attached would be too controlling, at least for a while. But there are other, creative ways - maybe a Soros or someone along that line, who could start something. MAybe other cooperatives that exist today would help? As the "cooperatives" grow (though we may need to come up with another name, else cries of Communism could scare off people from even trying to understand what we are trying to build) they would, over time, become large enough to fight back with the same tools the people who are hurting us today are using.

[patrice]

155. That's the kind of stuff I am impatient to start working on. It seems soooooooooooo obvious. But,

there's much to learn. One thing that I suspect would assist such a movement and may even be vital to its survival would be intra-professional co-operatives, so that different types of professionals could collaborate with the same physical resources. It would be kind of complicated legally, but imagine the effect of making the janitors organizational peers with, say, doctors, or engineers, or whomever. Just brainstorming here, but it'd be different from Unions in that it would be organization specific and, by making it profession-based, you'd be able to introduce professional standards that place job-performance above or at least on the same level as organizational politics.

[defendandprotect]

120. Rarely think about co-operatives ... we need someone to lead the way ....

basically employee owned stuff is what you mean?

[patrice]

153. Yes and any variations on that configuration. Personally, I'm also curious about how

that kind of business model would be enhanced by Deming-esque Quality Assurance methodologies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

[defendandprotect]

203. Not able to get to the link right now ...

but would encourage you to keep making us all more familiar with

these ideas -- as you go along --

:)

[jtuck004]

161. There is an executive summary of the open-book method that SRC

was built on here...about halfway down the page:

http://greatgame.com/

Explains it way better than I can. But the idea is to create buy-in by involving the people who do the work
in the deepest decisions of the company.

It seems to have worked well for the company at http://www.srcreman.com/about.php

There are other ways, I am sure, but think of the universe of evils attributed to corporations run by a small
handful of greedy people. They don't care about the company, just their pockets. When those decisions are spread
across everyone in the corporation they may make decisions that might be better for the group as a whole, or
the community.

This is not a universal panacea, but I think it has promise for at least one model that might be useful in creating
a small and growing business.

[defendandprotect]

204. Interesting post and will try to get to the links later ---

Not sure about the work scene right now -- except people seem to be overloaded

with work -- doing the jobs of two people sometimes -- working some part weekends?

This is what I've seen with my kids --

When I worked I was very lucky -- though being female always paid less which effects

everything -- pensions/social security -- whatever --

Generally worked for people who paid bonuses -- and for people who invited me to

invest in the company --

But don't think that happens much anymore -- all the power at the top --

same with learning jobs -- and being given responsibility -- more managers now than ever...

right?


Everything should be discussed and think these ideas should be floated around here more

often.

Corporations have created such stupendous problems for our nation and in their attack

on NATURE and humans that we would have one heck of a lot of catching up and repair to do.

Even thinking about it all right now depresses me!


Keep at it -- !!

:)




--------------------

There is an executive summary of the open-book method that SRC
was built on here...about halfway down the page:

http://greatgame.com /

[eilen]

101. it is possible to build parallel systems to replace those that have turned their back on you.

You said it. It is true. We can do this.

[jtuck004]

108. I actually read this in an article a little while back, but damned if I can find it.

The author was talking about what we could to to fight back, as I recall, and suggested that we build parallel systems away from and out of the control of the financial sector.

Anyone know where that was?

But yeah, we could do it. Whether we will or not remains to be seen.

[patrice]

160. The problem is that it's so different that most of us are ignorant about it.

If I was young, I'd probably focus my professional education on this kind of economics and the law of it, of course too.

I know there are long-standing Intentional Communities in the U.S. (I always used to keep one of their current directories http://directory.ic.org/ on my desk, in the Spring, when I taught high school seniors). There are also co-housing projects: http://www.cohousing.org/ and here's something more economic, not exactly co-operative, but a kind of a hybrid that is more profession specific http://www.ncbcapitalimpact.org/default.aspx?id=146

[patrice]

157. They'd be more community specific, so I'm guessing they'd be more cost efficient.

You need good collaborative PROCESSES to run such things, some rules, not too many rules, but valid procedures for discovering solutions and growing. Edward Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming and others have written lots about this sort of stuff. It seems to me that Quality Assurance would be the key to such organizations, because that's what is going to help you do better than the conventional competition, for less.

[pbrower2a]

138. What can you expect?

The tycoons, big landowners, and executives as a rule have never known hardship. They can impose it flippantly upon others, but they would never tolerate any of it for themselves.

[jtuck004]

146. I am tired of talking about the greedy, defining what I do and think in their frame.

Because they will never change.

I am more interested in the possibilities for how the gal working at Walmart can become part of a company that will be what she, or she and her husband, or she and her kids, need to be secure for the rest of her/their life.

I would expect a much different country as a result.

[patrice]

67. Only if we are ready to step in to build the kinds of Co-operatives that we will need to protect

those who are in need of protection and also to protect those who need a chance at new entrepreneurship, for a new economy that does not depend upon TRANSNATIONAL Economic Royalists in any way shape or form.

[MilesColtrane]

69. We have to destroy the village in order to save it.

Yeah, just ask Ralph Nader how that worked as a strategy for positive political change.

[Locrian]

70. Life Inc

http://boingboing.net/2009/05/04/life-inc.html

Corporatism didn't evolve naturally. The landscape on which we are living--the operating system on which we are now running our social software--was invented by people, sold to us as a better way of life, supported by myths, and ultimately allowed to develop into a self- sustaining reality. It is a map that has replaced the territory.

Its basic laws were set in motion as far back as the Renaissance; it was accelerated by the Industrial Age; and it was sold to us as a better way of life by a determined generation of corporate leaders who believed they had our best interests at heart and who ultimately succeeded in their dream of controlling the masses from above.

We have succumbed to an ideology that has the same intellectual underpinnings and assumptions about human nature as--dare we say it--mid- twentieth-century fascism. Given how the word has been misapplied to everyone from police officers to communists, we might best refrain from resorting to what has become a feature of cheap polemic. But in this case it's accurate, and that we're forced to dance around this "F word" today would certainly have pleased Goebbels greatly.

[klook]

73. Home ownership straps people to a lifetime of debt?

How about a lifetime of *renting*?? When I get my house paid off in a few years, I will be obligated for maintenance, utilities, home insurance, and taxes -- but in my book, that beats the hell out of having to see rents go up year after year on a fixed income.

[eilen]

89. What if your house burns down?

What if.... your job ends and you need to find a new job but there aren't any where you live and you need to move but you have this house you still need to pay a mortgage on.... And the real estate market really sucks in your town d/t high unemployment.

What if... The government decides they need to double your property taxes in order to keep those roads plowed and maintained for the delivery trucks? And you, on a fixed income.

Then you have a stroke and the kids have to sell it off as quick as possible to pay for your nursing home so you can spend down to qualify for medicaid.

btw... one lady I took care of had a wealthy professional for a SIL; she had an outpatient procedure but he had a holy fit that he wanted the hospital to keep her overnight. She tells me she needs us to arrange a medicaid cab to get home in the am. They are working the system. Fraudster tax cheats.

[ProudDad]

141. How about a steady state economy

that provides basic human needs for EVERYONE...

Without destroying the web of life that supports us all...

Vampire Capitalism is your enemy, not people proposing viable, better alternatives...

[Scruffy1]

180. To me its a mixed bag

I bought my house before the bubble so I don't have a big mortgage and have a lot of equity, But the rub is if I can't make the payments I risk losing all of my equity to foreclosure in this lousy market. This includes endless hours of work upgrading a 90 year house and meanwhile I just got a 13% tax increase. Now my insurance and taxes are almost as much as the principal and interest. Nearly all of my life savings is tied up in my house and I have no liquidity at the moment.

Home ownership means one lives in fear of foreclosure if we lose our job or get sick at which point we lose our life savings plus become homeless. On the positive side I've raised two sons, five cats, and a dog, and the continual housework kept me out of trouble.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

74. K&R AND bkmrkd.

[lib2DaBone]

76. Is this like when you are drunk and you throw up.. you feel better.....

[patrice]

86. lol! LOTS of that goin' around! nt

[sendero]

78. It's going to..

... whether planned or not. It's just a matter of "when".

[EarthFirster]

83. Do you think they want you to be free?

They are crashing the system, on purpose or by default, its going down. Nothing to do with Dems or Repugs, its all the SAME. Obama has the same people in 'Finance', Duh...

They are trying to BAN vitamins, and backyard gardens, so we all eat pesticide laden GM foods. They want China to be the new economy, with its 2 BILLION people, not a paltry 300 million people in the USA.

Obama's "minister of Agriculture" is a Monsanto boy. Genetic Modified Foodstuffs, Franken food for Americans.

Europe already has a VITAMIN BAN, you cannot buy "Vitamin C" in Europe any longer.

CALL YOUR SENATOR ON SB510!!

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4548062-sb-510-a-food-safety-bill-or-something-else-entirely

[bluedigger]

99. All good points, but let's not.

A true and total collapse of the U.S. economy would inevitably be part of a global collapse as well, and the end of civilization as we know it. While that is inevitable at some point, as all civilizations have their day, it is not something we should wish for, or look forward to experiencing. The last big crash was called The Dark Ages, and took quite a while to recover from.:scared:

Let's just try to correct the inequities and keep things limping along awhile longer yet.:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

102. That should have happened BEFORE the bailouts ... greatest financial coup ever pulled off!!

[NYMdaveNYI]

106. The economy is suffering.... let it die.

[pjahn]

110. And

1 Home ownership is a bad thing? People should pay rent rather than own their home. I have a 15 year mortgage on a nice house at 4.37%, Better that I own it than that I pay rent.

2 Sorry if you don't like your job. But I work to eat and pay my mortgage and save for retirement and to pay my kids tuition. Yes I am not an author or an artist but I likely am not talented enough to be either. Better my job than living off of someone else's work and that in itself is meaningful

3 So, the economy should shring and exactly how do we handle growing population. Let people starve?

4 The era of the 401-k makes most Americans capitalists whether they know it or not.

5 China and India have a growing middle class as a result of their rapid economic growth. Better to bring back the era of starvation?

6 You may have a point.

7 Do you honestly believe that we have less material well being than we did 50, 75 or 100 years ago?

[elocs]

113. My guess is that anyone who says let the U.S. economy collapse have a safety net themselves

and are in little danger of going down with the ship. It's pretty easy to talk tough when you are not at risk yourself. My guess would be that Joe Brewer will be ok even if the economy collapses although millions of us poor folk will not be. It is tough now, but that is still better than impossible.

[ProudDad]

140. You're wrong

and you're conflating the Vampire Capitalist bullshit that's destroying the Earth...

With a sustainable steady state economy supporting resilient communities...

Study up...

[elocs]

149. Nope, I think you are wrong. Please point out to me those in dire need

who would call or hope for the economy to collapse? That's foolish and I don't have to study up to know that.

[ProudDad]

191. You are ignoring the FACT

that the "system" is collapsing whether you want it to or not..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9596273&mesg_id=9600484

You have to decide HOW you are going to survive the collapse...

[elocs]

150. Nope, I think you are wrong. Please point out to me those in dire need

who would call or hope for the economy to collapse? That's foolish and I don't have to study up to know that.

[ProudDad]

201. There are two economies

there is the economy of real goods and services that most humans do for one another in their local communities and for which we need no banksters or financial managers...

Then there's the phony debt-based "economy" of vampire capitalism -- Wall St. -- that does NOTHING to provide efficient transfer of the goods and services of the Real economy but rather robs resources to feed the insatiable greed of the ruling class...

It's the demise of that 2nd "economy", the one that's already collapsing, that we cheer...

The Real economy will return to a reasonable steady state economy that is sustainable and humane...

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

172. Haha! Yeah, you'll get that right after about 30 years of facism, maybe.

Do you all think that liberals will swoop into the vacuum and take over? Really? I'm pretty sure that some others might want to contend for power as well, including the military. Oh yeah! that'll be swell. Nothing like a civil war with millions dead to improve things. Millions dead. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is dumb, juvenile or retarded. Maybe a combination?

[ProudDad]

202. You mean 30 MORE years of corporate funded fascism

to go with the 35 we've already gone through?

It's not necessary...

[Plucketeer]

116. If you watched Chris Hedges segment

that was/is a special feature of the DVDE for Capitalist, a love story - he lays out how this economy is inherently doomed to fail. Once it's sucked the last bits of life out of the minions - that's it! Like a burned out sun - once the fuel is all gone, there's nothing left but the cold cinder. It's really pretty simple. It's cold and merciless, but it's simple.

If WE rise up in rebellion - which I think we could do - then what? T'would be nice to think we could start with a clean, fair slate. But out of necessity, we'd end up with another center of power. And we all know what power does to folks.

[patrice]

162. Love CH! Good writer! But, though I do love it, I always warn myself about all of that passion.

A real revolution would not just replace one ends-justifies-the-means fascism with another. That would require authentic PERSONAL change.

[defendandprotect]

118. Btw, this is simply rhetorical because Bush/Obama/Congress already bailed them out ....

moving our $$ to local credit unions remains a viable alternative however --

and credit unions will lend money out to small businesses and the community --

the car buyer, etal.

Actually, I think the banks are probably laundering so much drug money that they

won't give a crap!

[ProudDad]

139. It's AMAZING how many knee-jerk reactionaries

just dumped on your couragious OP without bothering to read the article or comprehend what it means...

The "economy" IS collapsing. Since Vampire Capitalism has already begun consuming Mother Earth's muscle tissue after having burned through all of her fat, it's DONE -- stick a fork in it.

Our task is to use some of the Earth's remaining resources to build a new, better life based on Steady State Economics right-sized for each bio-region...

We need to let the Earth heal from the damage we've caused...

We need to build community resilience because what's coming IS COMING...you can't stop it by wishing that "things go back to the way they were"...

"The way they were" was before we ran out of resources and cheap energy...

Thanks for posting this! At least I'm not the only one here who "gets it"...

[Arkana]

145. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

No! says the man in Washington...it belongs to the poor.

No! says the man in Moscow...it belongs to everyone.

No! says the man in the Vatican...it belongs to God.

[patrice]

164. Uh. . . ? . . . where to begin . . . The Derivative Crash of 2008 was not about the sweat of anyone'

s brow, but those of us who SUBSIDIZE those who sit around and wait for dividend checks.

Maybe you need to tell us what your definition of "sweat" is, or, better yet, what is value.

Or maybe you could just tell us how much is enough.

[bluedigger]

175. No! says the man in the boardroom...it belongs to me!

[WildEyedLiberal]

206. Haha, no one got your Bioshock reference

:thumbsup:

[Arkana]

221. Hee hee hee...

Welcome to Rapture, DU.

[L0oniX]

151. Rich Machiavellian sociopath corporatist's have destroyed the USA.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

167. The Most Ironic Thing

The most ironic thing is that the author thinks his pals will run things after the collapse. If history has taught us anything it is that things will be run by strong men and boys with guns.

ROTFLMFAO at this puerile nonsense masquerading as intellectual banter.

[47of74]

170. And we need only look at Germany to see what can go wrong after such a collapse

[DemocratSinceBirth]

171. Don't Spoil The Author's Fun

An economic collapse would be like "Lord Of The Flies" with guns.

[Silent3]

184. +1

Christ, all you have to do is look at the last election to see a hint of how people often respond to hard times -- and hard as they are, very mild compared to real total economic collapse.

It took six years of Bush, with Katrina as part of that, to put Democrats (just barely) in control of Congress, and eight years of Bush along with the economic crash that created the Great Recession to put a Democrat in the White House. Democrats are hardly socialists or communists. Democrats are pretty right wing on a global political scale.

After just two years of Democratic control stymied by Blue Dogs and Republican obstructionism, the voters, in utter mindless petulance with no regard for the facts, happily voted overwhelmingly for Republican's again, putting the people most responsible for the current mess right back in charge.

These are the people who are going to create Socialist Paradise from the ashes of a collapsed civilization?

Sure they are!

Anyone who thinks, "Well, it couldn't be worse that what we have now!" suffers from a terribly limited imagination.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

197. America Will Look For A Strong Man Or Woman To Fix Things

As does any society in distress...

[ProudDad]

193. If that's what you want, that's what you'll get

It sounds like that's what you want...

The FACT that the Ponzi scheme of an "economy" is unraveling is not really in dispute...

The question is what positive, proactive ideas you have about coping with that FACT...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9596273&mesg_id=9600484

[DemocratSinceBirth]

196. It Has Nothing To Do With What I Want. The Men (And) Boys With Guns Will Decide What I Need.

Maybe you are 6'5 , 250 pounds, and great with your fists and guns. If you are you will do well in the brave new world you crave for. You will be part of the junta or provisional government. If not, I hope you like taking any order.

Oh, I don't have much time to fantasize about the collapse of American society and how it will be replaced by a utopia where we share everything equally and all get along. I am underemployed and my girlfriend is unemployed. I'm just worried about tomorrow; literally...

[ProudDad]

200. You've apparently bought into the dominator's story so far...

that you can only accept the bogus premise that humans MUST act in such a manner...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

216. I Accept Man As He Is And Not As I Would LIke Him To Be

Every attempt to remake him has ended in tears. You don't even have to look to history. You can look to current events. A moderate sniff of bad economic news has put Congress in the hands of the Tea Baggers. Imagine what a catastrophe might do.

[DemocraticPilgrim]

173. That would be more tragic than people could imagine.

[DemocraticPilgrim]

174. That would be more tragic than people could imagine.I can understand how it annoys people but

giving up is the ONLY ONLY reason it is this way. It was never congresses fault it got this way, the people gave up on themselves. If people abandon their civic duty, OF COURSE they empty the cookie jar. It take constant particiaption by all nothing les. Do people leave a worker unmonitored at work,no... My support stays with the Dems they have mostly kept the lid on the cookie jar in comparison.

[Greyhound]

177. I'm rather surprised that this got so many recs, and I'll add another, but

an uncontrolled collapse is unlikely to produce the results anyone wants. However, with some real leadership we could restructure the existing system (it really is quite ingenious) to remove the ever-expanding hooks that accumulate more and more into fewer and fewer hands to make it really work for everyone.

So all you social innovators out there, now is the time to heed the call. Focus your efforts on the new business models, disruptive technologies, collaborative finance systems, and politic organizing platforms. We’re going to need you.

The author doesn't address the system specifically so we have no way of knowing what he envisions, but he has stated some truths in this piece.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. Some Of The People We Like , Voted For And Support Are Part Of The Government

Are we sure they will be acceptable to the provisional government set up after the collapse?

[pokercat999]

182. I don't think the economy is "designed" to harm us, the harm is

simply the result of unfettered capitalism. No regulation and the uncontrolled profit of corporations has led us here. The "system" can be fixed but not by our politicians as they are all bought and paid for by the oligarchs and will vote for them almost without exception.

What will eventually happen is the people will rise up and reverse the situation. Hopefully with reason and some justice. I thought we might get that leadership from Obama however that ship has sailed and will unlikely change course within the next few months. Any "change" from Obama now must be considered in the shadow of re-election and would most likely be temporary. We need an American "Gandhi", someone who leads from outside the system. We need a leader for the economy like Dr. Martin Luther King was for civil rights. I have no idea where this person is but I hope she/he shows up soon.

[ProudDad]

194. Uh, unfettered Vampire Capitalism IS the "system"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9596273&mesg_id=9600484

[Bigmouth]

183. Beautiful

I love it...let's do it

[Silent3]

185. Any good ideas about how to organize a new economy in this article...

...and any valid points about what's wrong with the current economy are completely blown away by the utterly naive stupidity of the "let it collapse" proposal.

People in this country would starve by the tens of millions if the economy truly collapsed. The desperation and violence would be hideous. To think that this misery would automatically make people turn hard to the left... I don't know what planet you'd have to be living on to imagine that. You'd be more likely to get a right wing dictatorship, even theocratic Christian enclaves killing gays and burning witches, than some sort of socialist paradise.

I can't tell if all of the positive reaction to this thread means DUers are crazier on a whole than I'd like to think, or if it simply means more sensible people are just rolling their eyes and going on without comment.

[ProudDad]

195. There's nothing wrong with a "Socialist Paradise"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9596273&mesg_id=9600484

It IS collapsing, that's not in any real doubt...

The question is how do we respond to that inevitable collapse...

[Silent3]

215. The answer to that question...

...is likely, "Not very well". Those on DU who dream of a Socialist Paradise (which I might like myself, depending on who's version of it we're talking about) aren't anywhere near enough of a force to turn an huge economic crash into what they'd hope to get out of it.

Thinking that such a crash would cause people to "wake up" to thoughts that sound like socialist talking points is naive. Massive unemployment, rapant crime, starvation, disease, etc. is not going to make the suffering masses suddenly, in great numbers, describe their plight as "the inevitable result of exploitation by capitalism". In this country large numbers would blame liberals, illegal aliens, insufficient devotion to their particular ultra-conservative version of Christianity, gays, the "Hollywood elite"... etc., etc., as the cause of their suffering, long before pondering "turning control of the means of production over to the working class" as a solution to their problems.

[bvar22]

187. Don't Worry. The Invisible Hand will SAVE us ALL!!!!

All HAIL the Invisible Hand!!!
The Giant Invisible Hand will save us ALL!
We must NOT make the Giant Invisible Hand Angry!
We MUST sacrifice the Working Class.
The Invisible Hand DEMANDS it!
All Hail the Giant Invisible Hand!!!

If you Work for a Living, do NOT trust ANY politician who expresses a belief in a Giant "Invisible Hand" or a "Free Market". Neither exists, and that politician is NOT your friend.

[patrice]

205. Don't worry about that on my account. Have recently had more than one opportunity

to explain why the "Free Market" ain't and how the Invisible Hand is not benign, on FaceBook in a fairly conservative/Libertarian circle around one of our perennial candidates (who did not succeed in the primary season this year) and who works for one of our major local corporations.

I made the case for how the "Free Market" actually looses values, rather than selecting for them.

[Odin2005]

207. Just posted that last line on facebook!

[Silent3]

220. It's not a black/white choice...

...between absolute unquestioning faith in the "Invisible Hand" and believing that an enormous economic failure will lead to a beneficent socialist economic structure rising out of the ashes. The two ideas are only very weakly linked.

However, it appears that as long as a poster posts the requisite tirade against the evils of capitalism then any crap that follows must be hailed as true.

Alice: Capitalism is an evil force crushing the poor and raping the planet, but after the system collapses, invisible pink unicorns will come to save us!
Bob: Invisible pink unicorns? Are you serious?
Alice, and a loud supporting DU chorus: Why do you have such ridiculous faith in the invisible hand, Bob? Or are you just one of the oppressors too, hoping to hide the truth from us?
Bob: I'm just questioning invisible pink...
Alice and DU chorus: CAPITALIST MONSTER!!!

[Nye Bevan]

211. Wow. 138 net recs for this?

DU is great, but economics threads are definitely not one of its strengths.