Do you support the concept of workers' unions?

[Occulus]

Poll question: Do you support the concept of workers' unions?

Support, in any form.

[KansDem]

1. Yes, they are necessary to counter Investors' Unions and Board of Directors' Unions.

You know, those bodies who make decisions about workers based on their bottom lines...

[Occulus]

2. They are equally necessary to counter direct floor supervision.

Here's another, related question: what should a union do when direct floor supervision knowingly and with malice of forethought ignores decisions reached through binding arbitration?

What if they do that hundreds of times for the same arbitration decision?

[tavalon]

82. If it's the union I work for,

pretty much nothing. I work under a very weak union but I'm still grateful to be unionized. I've had it both ways and this is better.

[movonne]

17. If unions are bad for the working person why do corporations oppose

them...because the only thing we the people have is unions to keep the fight fair...that is why corporations are so against the unions..

[KansDem]

19. Precisely

Unions get in the way of our complete transformation to the status of "serf." Corporations don't like that...

[Dappleganger]

3. Who the hell voted no?

At least have the guts to say why you are anti-union on a democratic forum.

[Occulus]

5. Better question: as of this writing, my poll has around 130 views

and only 31 actual responses in either direction.

That should tell you something regarding your own question.

[TheKentuckian]

7. Most telling

[Occulus]

8. Ed Zachary. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

21. Lots of disdain for unions on DU.

Mostly by those that never broke a sweat at their job.

[blondeatlast]

25. I never have, but my dad was an AFSCME officer and my grandpa faced violence as a striking railroad

worker; but I do think there's a lot of that here. It just doesn't apply to everyone (I'm a vociferous union supporter, see my post downthread).

[BuelahWitch]

10. "But I couldn't get my Nike Air Max's for ONLY $160

if they weren't made by slave labor in China/Indonesia/Vietnam/etc.!" :cry:
It wasn't me who voted no, I'm just being facetious. I think our current economy is a travesty.

[movonne]

18. the repugs on here...

[Booster]

4. Without unions there is no middle class period.

[Canuckistanian]

6. 97%. That's reassuring

There have been some stunningly anti-union posts around here lately.

[Occulus]

9. Look at the ratio of page views to responses to the poll.

I am not encouraged.

[Davis_X_Machina]

15. Crab bucket syndrome...

...and a not-unusual DU response. Too often the reflex answer to 'My X sucks' is for me to make your X suck too. not to make your X like mine.

Saw it a lot during HCR arguments.

[Canuckistanian]

36. But that's normal

Post views are ALWAYS higher than the responses. Sometimes, people just like to view a post.

[Codeine]

65. I've looked in on the thread many times

but only voted once. Is there a separate page view logged every time I visit it or just per visitor?

[wickerwoman]

71. Yeah, page views counts page views, not people.

Doesn't really mean anything if it's higher than the number of votes.

[Occulus]

83. It's a moot point by now anyway, but still a legitimate point when I made note of it above.

As time goes by, yes, the number of page views becomes less relevant (unless it's like my "Dead Space" review in the gaming forum, which has tens of thousands of page views :wow:)

[OutNow]

11. I'm sticking to the Union

The concept? No actually I support the actual membership in a union. CWA Local 1701 Alliance@IBM.

[blondeatlast]

12. This white-collar, ineligible for union membership worker knows where her beniz

came from. I'm the daughter of an AFSCME officer and the granddaughter of a railroad striker who faced violence for striking.

I'm not the anonymous coward who voted 'no," that's for damn sure.

[superduperfarleft]

14. In the same boat as you. n/t

[Flying Dream Blues]

13. Anyone who votes no needs to go read some history. nt

[Ikonoklast]

23. Because they don't know where the forty-hour workweek that they

take for granted came from.

Or paid vacations.

Or overtime pay.

Or paid pensions.

Or that people, men and women, DIED fighting for what they see as a given from their employers.

If you are anti-union, you are scum.

[Chorophyll]

43. Damn skippy. nt

[a kennedy]

16. how's this....HELL YES!!!

[Kingofalldems]

20. K and R to counter the un-reccers

[Starry Messenger]

22. Oh *hell* yes.

[WillyT]

24. Only An Idiot Would Not...

:shrug:

:kick: & R !!!

[blondeatlast]

34. See post 21; a "no" voter has weighed in and, well, um, yeah.

What you said.

[blindpig]

26. Strength in numbers is the only power that workers got....

whether it is in the shop or on the street.

If more of us realized this and acted upon it we'd be on our way....

[leftstreet]

46. +1

[maryf]

55. Yep...

300,000,000 people have a lot of unrealized latent power...

[readmoreoften]

75. +1

[LeftishBrit]

27. Not just yes, but YES! Anyone who doesn't needs to read some history of times before they existed!

[4lbs]

28. Answered YES and K&R'ed. My father was a union member for 30+ years.

In a blue state. :D

[Historic NY]

29. Give me some old-time guilds. Unions are the key......

and should be using them more to train an American work force. Give them the training money to train workers we need to rebuild the infrastructure.

[Ichingcarpenter]

30. I organized workers in the SOUTH

to protest injustices, it cost me my Job many times.

We had no chance to go to a union because because of the South.

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE.

[GliderGuider]

31. I voted no. Here's why.

I grew up in a strongly pro-union family in Canada (CCF/NDP for four generations). For the first 50 years of my life I drifted in and out of politics. When I was "in" politics it was always on the hard left end of the spectrum. When I was "out" it was because I tend to see all politicians as beholden to the same puppetmasters. Over the last 10 years I've become progressively more and more disenchanted with politics, which I now see as one of the main Guardian Institutions of Hierarchy in western civilization. I suppose in my dotage I've become some sort of communitarian anarchist.

Along the way I read John Zerzan's book Elements of Refusal. In one essay he presents an alternative view of how trade unions were developed early in the Industrial Revolution - not by the workers to ensure their own rights, but by the factory owners to ensure a compliant factory workforce through the institution of peer-level discipline, along with the development of a power structure that would help to break the craft/guild system that was interfering with the industrialization of the workforce.

Further reading such as Organized Labor versus "The Revolt Against Work" has convinced me that things are still fundamentally the same as they were in the early 1800s so far as the underlying purpose of unions is concerned.

I believe that the emphasis on "workers rights" is in some measure a public relations smokescreen that cloaks the true power source of unionism in a culturally acceptable facade of community solidarity.

Some unions have achieved remarkable things for their members -- I'm totally in favour of the current attempt to unionize Wal-Mart, for example. Anything that can be done to break down power structures gets my support. It's just that in their broadest manifestation, unions seem to be as much a part of the power structures of our society as the owners.

[blondeatlast]

33. "...unions seem to be as much a part of the power structures of our society as the owners."

Are labor unions devastating the economy? Throwing families out of their homes? Sending good jobs and opportunities overseas?

REALLY?

I'm sorry, your argument is just ridiculous on its face.

NO SALE--but I do hope you will return to this thread.

[GliderGuider]

35. I don't expect anyone here to agree with me.

I also don't expect to win any converts -- I fully understand how unpopular my position will be.

I just wanted to say that it's possible for a thoughtful person to come to a different conclusion than the consensus.

[blondeatlast]

38. Trade Unions=Morgan Stanley? Do you honestly believe that? If that's the

case, why are worker's rights being trampled and wages consistently losing ground? If trade unions had aas much power as corporations, the opposite would be true.

Your argument is DEMONSTRABLY wrong, but I still want to hear more from you.

[GliderGuider]

52. Nope. No way do unions have "as much" power as corporations.

Nor are they equivalent. I have to go do some errands now, but I'll be back in a couple of hours.

[WillyT]

45. And Canada Is A Different Case Than The USA...

Many of the wants/gains of Labor Unions here, have been defeated or retreated on...

Yet in Canada, many of those wants/gains have been written into law and cemented into position... Universal Heath Care for example.

Many Americans forget, that if it weren't for Unions, there would be no two-day weekend, no eight-hour workday, no minimum wage laws, no heath and safety standards, no vacation days, no sick leave, no public school system... the only reason we ever had Sunday off was to go to church.

:shrug:

[TBF]

37. Union leaders may become part of the power structure, but that is not the workers.

My dad used to say "the union's not perfect but it's the only thing we've got. Without them we wouldn't get anything." History proves him correct, and so does the current situation in which we have all these non-unionized service workers who will never make more than minimum wage.

[blondeatlast]

39. Salient point, but union leaders don't carry anywhere near as much weight as business and financial

leaders, so I still call BS on GG's argument.

[TBF]

41. Good point. nt

[Dappleganger]

48. Exactly. Nobody calls the CEO's "thugs"...

the unions have most of the US against them still using the "union thug" meme.

[Dappleganger]

47. That was my father's feelings as well...

not perfect, but they do far more good than not having them at all. He always stood with his CWA chapter, no matter what. They went to bat for him when Verizon took over Bell Atlantic/AT&T but unfortunately they still lost some benefits--he worked DAMN hard for those bennies, too. Usually 60+ hours a week in the heat, cold, rain--you name it.

[blondeatlast]

40. I give you propers for speaking up even if I vehemently disagree with your position

and reasoning.

[mazzarro]

51. Having Said That ...

What then would be the alternative to unions, in your opinion? My issue with unions is this - why are unions and their leaders not good at messaging? It seems to me that one lacking aspect of the union messaging is their inability to effectively tie union successes to the good of the society at large. Few people in the general populace equate most of the benefits the enjoy in their work place to the efforts and struggles of unions.

[blondeatlast]

61. That's a complicated issue. I agree that they need to fine tune and get the word out,

but with the lazy, prepackaged, talking-point, don't think, react media of today, HOW?

[MilesColtrane]

72. Hard to get the message out when the mass media Is owned by the bosses.

[GliderGuider]

73. Alternatives?

Within the current system, there aren't any. Just to be clear, I don't think that unions are "bad", whatever that means. The global economic system that we have created is one that pumps money and power away from the poor and powerless at the periphery and towards the rich and powerful at the center. Given that we can't change the underpinnings of the system (God knows we've tried, and every attempt has failed), we need brakes to slow down the ultimate centralization of all power and authority. Unions seem to offer that possibility.

The problem that I see is that unions arise out of the same human tendency to construct competitive power hierarchies that has created all our other social structures, and therefore they exhibit the same behaviour. In other words, the power within a union gets pumped away from the membership and toward the leadership. It's not a failing of unions per se, it's just an inevitable outcome of the way we humans organize our social systems.

I'm opposed to all hierarchies, whether constructed by "the bosses", "the unions", the military, politicians or just people getting together in community organizations. I'm in favour of flat, consensus-driven groups. I know this is a utopian vision, but that's where I'm comfortable, and it leads me to turn thumbs down on unions for the same reasons I don't like any other hierarchical, power-driven organizations.

My position is more philosophical than practical, but I've always felt that unless we understand the roots of a situation, any attempts to change it will be less than successful.

[leftstreet]

58. You make valid points

It's interesting that one of the fastest growing 'unions' in the US is Service Employees International SEIU but it was basically born in response to the janitorial strikes and threats in the 90s in California.

Those workers were (still are) a threat given the strong immigrant influence from countries where people aren't uncomfortable with ...robust...class struggle.

[Greyhound]

64. At least you have the courage to make your points,

and while I vehemently disagree with them, I respect that you made them.

Canada doesn't have Taft-Hartley or the like, does it?

[GliderGuider]

74. To my knowledge there is nothing similar to Taft-Hartley in Canada

http://www.canadianlawsite.ca/unions.htm

Although the Parliament of Canada and provincial legislatures both have the power to enact labour laws, provincial governments are primarily responsible for labour legislation.

Federal authority is limited to the following industries:

industries of an extra-provincial or international character, such as railways, bus operations, trucking, pipelines, ferries, tunnels, bridges, canals as well as shipping and related services (e.g., longshoring);
air transport, aircraft and airports;
telecommunications, such as radio and television broadcasting as well as telephone and cable systems;
banks;
works that have been declared by Parliament to be for the general advantage of Canada or of two or more provinces, such as grain elevators or uranium mining and processing; and
certain federal Crown corporations.

Human Rights Provisions

Human rights provisions, fair employment practices, equal pay and anti-discrimination laws are all embodied in the federal and provincial human rights legislation as well as in labour legislation. Discrimination by race, religion, colour, creed, sex, age or other factors is prohibited. All jurisdictions require employers to pay men and women equally for the same work.

Right to Belong to a Union

Canadian employees are permitted to join unions for the purpose of bargaining collectively with their employers on issues concerning wage rates, fringe benefits and other working conditions.

Federal and provincial labour relations acts and labour codes contain regulations with respect to collective bargaining. Labour codes in all jurisdictions guarantee the right to representation by a trade union following a certification process outlined in legislation. The various jurisdictions administer their respective acts mainly through labour relations boards, in addition to the respective agencies which provide mediation and conciliation assistance to those parties involved in labour disputes.

[readmoreoften]

76. A union is the workers, not the union management. That's an unfortunate

remnant from the Cold War which busted all the leftist, non-business unions in America. The reality is, we need to take back our unions not "oppose" them.

[Radical Activist]

87. I'm sure the people who got killed by corporate bosses while trying to form a union

would have been surprised to learn that the corporate bosses actually wanted unions in order to maintain some sort of power structure.

Any powerful organization can be co-opted by those with wealth and power. Even revolutionary communist parties have been co-opted and corrupted. That doesn't mean forming unions isn't worthwhile.

[fishwax]

32. of course

:kick:

[strawberryfield]

42. Yes, for other people, not me

I worked a union job through college and I am glad I did. The higher wages and better benefits allowed to me support myself and to graduate without any debt. But I also saw how a union can stifle individual goals. I needed a lot of flexibility in my schedule because of the demands of my education. My boss understood that and tried to accommodate, but everything seemed to turn into a contract issue that got the union rep involved. I also saw how seniority messed with personal ambition. No matter how clever and or good of worker you were, you had to get a certain level of seniority before you could move into the slot you wanted. If I had actually wanted a career there, that would have pissed me off. Since college, I have chosen a career based on very individualistic skills and I have mostly worked free lance for myself. I wouldn’t want it any other way. Corporations are tyrants, and unions are benevolent tyrants. I am too much of an individualist to submit to either.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. Yes, but only because I can't think of a better alternative.

I have various issues both with the theory and the practice of unions (nearly all minor in the first case; a few quite major specific ones like "Union X was run as a criminal racket in such and such an era" in the latter).

But until such time as someone comes up with a better way to prevent a "race to the bottom" in wages and working conditions, unions are absolutely vital.

[hfojvt]

49. What exactlty is the concept?

Back in the 19th century there were unions like the Knights of Labor and the International Workers of the World which wanted to change the entire system into something more worker-friendly. Then along came a spider named Samuel Gompers, and others who took unions into a different direction. Instead of changing the system, they just asked for a bigger piece of the pie - for themselves.

Under that system, suppose a whopping 30% of working people belong to unions. What does that mean? That means that 30% of the working class has relatively good jobs, with higher pay and better benefits. What does that do for the other 70% of the working class? Very little. Of course, like other people with privileges, those with the good jobs will argue that what is good for them is really good for everybody. So they expect the 70% to support the 30% because that prosperity for the 30% will trickle down to the rest of us somehow.

And there is somewhat of a case to be made, because a higher paying union factory will a) create a customer base with income to spend which will benefit local businesses, and b) force other local employers to offer better wages and benefits in order to attract and retain their workforce. But I still think that is trikle down, and a union that only works for their members just creates another division in the working class between the union elites and the rest of us.

On the other hand, if you look at the leadership of the AFL-CIO, there is no other group that provides more money or takes a stronger stand on progressive economic and working class issues. They provide data and some publicity about CEO pay, and pay equality and tax issues. I am just not sure that knowledge or outlook is shared by the average union worker

[strawberryfield]

57. I am familiar with Gompers and what he did

Ever since Gompers, the unions in this country have acted more like business agents on the behalf of the people they specifically represent rather than as leaders of a broader worker's movement. The ultimate example is the pilot's union which probably does a great job of representing its members but has almost a complete disdain for broader worker issues. It is very different in Europe.The question is whether our model or the European model is better.

[hfojvt]

62. now you've done it

a low post count and agreeing with me. You are a marked man for sure.

The question is whether we will get a substantive reponse. Surely it is good for the working class if pilots make six figure incomes, and all $8 an hour temps and $7 an hour part-time janitors should support their union brothers in the pilots union and in the NFL and MLB. It's all about the solidarity. It's all about me needing to support them, rather than asking (or demanding!) them to support me.

[Puregonzo1188]

50. Did you people really vote No?

[blondeatlast]

54. "...you people..."? I always find that phrase intriguing. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Union household, we are WORKING CLASS

how about some class identity? That is what needs to come back.

[strawberryfield]

59. I identify as me

[TBF]

68. And that, frankly, is the problem. Me, me, me ... nt

[strawberryfield]

69. I abhor being put in a category

I am more than the sum of the various dimensions that could be used to classify me. When I was young, I heard Bob Dylan's song "Joey". The first part of that song is how I have lived my life ever since:

Born in Red Hook Brooklyn in the year of who knows when
Opened up his eyes to the tune of an accordion
Always on the outside whatever side there was
When they asked him why it had to be that way "Well" he answered "just because".

[nadinbrzezinski]

You owe many WE in labor for that eight hour day

ow they want to bring back the ten hour day. Will you get it now, or until we are back to sun-up to sun-down work days, seven days a week? Did I mention kiddies working on the line too?

Oh never mind, it is about ME.

By the way I don't blame you much. That's what the TEEVEE teaches and quite frankly labor history is not something most Americans know. Hell, they don't know history for that matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. You owe many WE in labor for that eight hour day

ow they want to bring back the ten hour day. Will you get it now, or until we are back to sun-up to sun-down work days, seven days a week? Did I mention kiddies working on the line too?

Oh never mind, it is about ME.

By the way I don't blame you much. That's what the TEEVEE teaches and quite frankly labor history is not something most Americans know. Hell, they don't know history for that matter.

[readmoreoften]

77. Well, you're in one whether you "abhor" it or not. Many of us don't have that luxury.

If a strike goes down at your workplace you have three options: you cross the picket line and break the strike, you stand on the picket line in solidarity, or you quit your job and run away.

Your beautiful individual snowflake soul is not a factor.

[TBF]

67. Working class here too - solidarity. nt

[maryf]

56. of course...

where would we be today without the work of unions?

[ZombieHorde]

60. Yes. Unions are mostly cool. nt

[earth mom]

63. Where's the "Hell Yes!" option?!

:thumbsup:

[varelse]

66. Absolutely YES

K&R

[readmoreoften]

78. 100% union. (Also 100% against the entrenched establishment union bureaucracy

when it goes against the will of the workers, but that's another story.)

LET'S FILL OUR UNIONS AND PUSH THEM LEFT! Politically aware unions are a force to be reckoned with.

[FooshIt]

79. I do, and I support workers not in unions as well

everyone deserves respect

[trayfoot]

80. Absolutely!

I have seen the alternative and it really SUCKS!

[tavalon]

81. I hate black and white questions

but as a socialist, I would have a problem voting any other way than yes.

[Glassunion]

86. But the bars are blue and red?

[mdmc]

84. ..

[Glassunion]

85. Non vote here...

I have been in unions.

I have had both good and bad experiences. I was in a union that worked for me and I was in a union that could give a shit about me as long as I paid my dues.

[MrsCorleone]

88. As a small business owner, I proudly support workers' unions!

If workers in my community do well, I do well.