It comes down to this, what are you willing to give up for safety?

[KansasVoter]

This whole TSA thing has really made me think. What are you willing to give up for safety?

Lets say, if traveling was like it was 15 years ago, which was not as much of a hassle. And lets say that we would lose one jet a year to a terrorist act. And lets say there are 250 people on board on average. So once a year you lose 250 people.

700 million people fly a year in the USA.

So, is it worth hassling and making 700 million people deal with extra security issues to stop 250 people from dying every year?

Before you over react, lets look at automobile travel.....

30,000 people die a year in automobile accidents. We could save 1000s if we would reduce the speed limit to 40 mph. We would save 1000s if people would wear a three point harness in their car instead of a regular seat belt. We would save 1000s if people would wear motorcycle type helmets every time they drove their car. We would save 1000s if every highway had barriers to prevent cross over accidents.

But, people freak out if you want to lower the speed limit and no one would want a three point harness in their car and no one would be willing to wear a helmet while driving. So people have made informed decisions to assume the risk of driving and the risk.

30,000 people dying a year is tragic, but it is a risk we all assume.

So maybe going back to the old style method of flying is worth 250 life's a year as just the risk of driving 70 mph is worth the risk of getting to your location faster?

Something to think about!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I think it's less about risks, than it is about gov't. control...

The gov't. is using the risks to scare us into believing that everything they're doing is for our own good...

Which is really subservient to the control they want to have over us.

That's how I see it, anyway...

:shrug:

[KansasVoter]

2. I am starting to agree!! nt

[Dawson Leery]

22. +1

[Individualist]

25. +1

[sufrommich]

3. I guarantee you, if we lost one jet a year to terrorist, we would all

be flying naked.The difference between a car accident and a terrorist taking down a plane every year is that car accidents aren't deliberately planned to kill as many people as possible. There's already a majority of people in the country who approve of the new TSA rules and it's because they WANT enhanced security on planes.

[KansasVoter]

16. Because they are over estimating the threat IMO.

[kentuck]

4. And how much abuse are people willing to take from their government?

Before they say:
Enough! Fucking enough!

[gateley]

5. Hmmmm... I'm thinking, I'm thinking!

Boy, it's a tough one when presented like that. I've begun and deleted several responses and still am ping-ponging around.

I'm looking forward to reading other DUers' posts because they're sure to present viewpoints I'm not thinking of. As did you!

What did YOU conclude?

[KansasVoter]

13. I would choose the old style security. NT

[LibDemAlways]

6. Don't confuse what tsa is doing with security. It isn't.

Real security would involve the kind of multi-layered threat detection El Al has found very effective. Layers of security, beginning at the airport perimeter, that includes interviews with each and every passenger to determine intent and ferret out anyone suspicious. Yes of course Israel is a small country, but we don't lack the resources - just the will.

We'd rather harrass and intimidate millions of innocent travelers than focus on determining where real threats lie - and that includes in the cargo hold. In other words, we have it ass backwards.

[gateley]

29. I've been harrumphing that why the fuck do we always feel we

have to do things OUR way? And this is a prime example. Add to that energy efficient/green automobiles, solar power, transit and on and on.

But I'm sure the answer, in all of these instances, comes down to $$$. How can they make the biggest buck? :grr:

[LibDemAlways]

31. Yep, it would take a lot of money to actually implement

smart and efficient security at the airports. Instead, we waste the budget on nude-o-scopes that make a buck for assholes like Chertoff and hire people who look like they've just been released from prison to "keep us secure." It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. American Exceptionalism is a large component of that

We are better than anybody else, doncha know?

[gateley]

43. "We are better than anybody else, doncha know?"

Oh, yeah. I keep forgetting. Thanks for the reminder. :7

[Catshrink]

7. Ben Franklin

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[KansasVoter]

15. One of my favorite quotes

[customerserviceguy]

21. It's as true today as it was in the days of King George III

And Franklin lived in a more dangerous world then, than we do today.

[KansDem]

8. We've not had a 9/11 since...9/11

We must be doing something right.

And about 9/11: the question should be asked, "Why did the POTUS sit on his butt and do nothing when told we were under attack by his oil financier's brother after receiving intelligence that that's what he wanted to do?"

Answer that and we can do away with nude scanners and sexual assaults...

[LibDemAlways]

11. Why should terrorists go to the trouble of killing

themselves and taking down more planes? They managed to create fear and terror to the point where people are willing to go along with the government using nude-o-scopes and groping genitals. In other words, they've already won.

And, the simplest solution to all this is one no one talks about - make fundamental changes to our foreign policy so they have less motive to terrorize us in the first place.

[LWolf]

27. They, the terrorists, have created the fear and terror?

Or the government, the media, and the MIC have used terrorist acts to foment that fear and terror?

[gateley]

30. Good point. They played Bushco like a fiddle. nt

[PeaceNikki]

20. lolz. Do you think Bush and tactics like this have "kept us safe"?

[sally cat]

9. I'd pay more for a ticket if the security was real, and effective, instead of theater.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. +1 n/t

[etherealtruth]

12. exactly

[KansasVoter]

14. What would that be?

[JackRiddler]

17. But not if what you are giving up does nothing for "safety."

At best, these measures merely change the plans of the assumed potential terrorist, for whom a checkpoint bombing or a mall massacre may be just as satisfying.

In reality, the current imbroglio has de nada to do with safety, and is a function of sales of useless but extremely expensive backscatter radiation scanners.

[SoCalDem]

18. I never expect to have Al Qaeda terrorists attack me on my way to the store

I know that sometimes the terrorists DO "win"...but out of 100 tries, they only have to succeed once to completely undo our timid society.

I do not expect to be kept "safe" 24/7.

Life is quirky.. Sometimes bad stuff happens..

I do NOT fly... but it's because of the hassle-factor, and the fact that I do not NEED to fly. There is no where I need to go, that requires a plane.. I am not in a hurry, and we have a very comfy car.

Someday, if we can no longer drive, I may have to revise my plan, but for now it works for us.:)

[customerserviceguy]

19. The next time a jihadi wants to blow something up

and shoves a fizzle-out bomb in his rectum, the TSA will bring out body cavity searches. I wonder how many sheep who like the gropedowns will just bend over and spread their cheeks for that one?

[KansasVoter]

23. You are 100% correct.......

If they were smart they would just do it now and get caught on purpose to make us react!

[LibDemAlways]

32. They could try it, but it would cause the death of

commercial aviation in the US overnight.

[customerserviceguy]

39. It's all a matter of where the line is being drawn

Current molestees bought their tickets months in advance, they're not going to change plans for the coming holiday season, but they're going to spread horror stories of extreme indignities far and wide when they get back. I predict that the falloff in air travel will be apparent starting in February or March, if things don't change. I may have to re-examine my annual July trip to the Pacific Northwest, just to send a message to the airlines.

If we had high speed trains, many people would never fly.

[stray cat]

24. I think people should not be restricted on carrying anything on planes

if we are all armed there will not need to be screening. Simple survival of the most prepared and death to anyone else...

[sally cat]

26. "240 people go in, one comes out!" Air Travel Survivor, coming this fall!

[Fumesucker]

33. Aluminum Cage Death Match..

It'll be the new season's reality TV sensation..

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I really do not want to see the effect

of untrained civies opening up at 10K feet.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. More than I'm willing to give up for a giant, inconvenient charade-- or maybe the chance to

find people traveling with weed, which is essentially what it's about, now.

[seabeyond]

34. i dont think either the naked scanners or groping increases safety. giving those up,

would not mean, giving up safety.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. It is simpler than that

leave the magetometers in place.

Leave the Agents in place, with quite a bit of retraining and mission profile.

Replace these tactics with dogs, and asking a few questions with trained personnel. Yes, the grope and the machine have a place, AFTER, not BEFORE, you establish probable cause... and should be done by a badged police officer. After all at that point you are investigating a crime... and have cause. What would cause that? A doggie alerting... hell in Mexico City I had a hot flash... they checked my luggage, ok... that is one of the signs as it were. Here... I don't want to think about it.

Of course increase the check of cargo from about 20% to 100%, and you will have REAL security.

Oh and people need to realize that no system is 100% effective. If you wish for 100% effective, you are not being an adult.

[kayakjohnny]

38. I wish the government would let me sign a waiver that says,

"Please don't protect me from anything, and don't charge me money to protect me from anything".

And, "Don't do anything at all to save me from your imagined threats".

"Let me handle my own safety as I travel around this country and the world".

"I'll take my chances without your help".

"And I'll be more than happy to deal with the results".

"Please devote your resources to those that actually fear things".

"Thank you".

[Angry Dragon]

40. How can we not expect terrorists??

The powers that be go around the world trying to shape countries and governments to suit them. If some country did that to us there would people that would try to change that. How can we blame the people that just want to live in their country and be left alone. When people of other countries try to fight back TPTB call them terrorists. In fact they are just people for their own rights.

We have been creating terrorists in foreign countries since 1953 and we continue this tradition to this day. I read in a post today on DU that the US military wants to expand the drone zone in Pakistan. How many terrorists will this move create??

[flyarm]

41. This shit isn't about safety, it is about greasing pockets of ones political friends!

This pat down shit is to intimidate people to going through the X-Ray machines that Obama's political friends are making!

[niyad]

42. not willing to give up anything, because "safety" is an illusion

[spanone]

44. let's face it, the terrorists won.

[Curmudgeoness]

45. I freak people out when I say I would rather take a chance

at being blown up on a plane than to lose all my dignity and civil rights just to get on a plane. I am willing to take my chances.

If I were a terrorist, I would be pleased at all the fuss that is being made now in airports. And I would be looking at a new way to terrorize Americans. And don't think that they aren't. You could take more people out at the security checkpoints these days before you get to the check than you could on a plane. You have a cramped group of hundreds of people winding through lines. So don't tell me I am safe.

[applegrove]

46. It is all risk management. The example most often used in policy discussions is

firetrucks at airports. Do firetrucks at airports save lives? Well most firestations at airports never put out a fire or face a crash. Yet if you told the public there was no fire department at the airport people would balk and demand one there.

[Odin2005]

47. Patrick Henry said it best: "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH"