As a lifelong Philadelphia Eagles Fan,

[PCIntern]

I want to state for the record that when Michael "Watch your beagle - Vick's an Eagle" Vick was signed, I wrote a letter to the franchise and told them that I would not go to their games, watch their games, or buy any of their sponsored products if I could at all help it, until he AND Coach Reid were off the team.

Sociopathy and malignant behavior is not a 'mistake', and it is certainly not 'cured' by doing some months in a Federal Pen. Some here at DU scoffed that I would relent and become a fan again, but guess what...no siree bub.

He needs the money...badly...and that is his motivation to 'behave' (to a point) and to follow the Coach's instructions, something which he didn't do in Atlanta.

[Angry Dragon]

1. I am glad you are standing firm

[cleanhippie]

2. You are entitled to your opinion, and to use your money where you see fit.

[kanrok]

3. Kudos

As a lifelong football fan, I know how hard this is.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. I'd pay money to see him play

He's great. I hope he wins a Superbowl and gets MVP.

We need redemption stories in our society, not packs of vigilantes and pseudoscientific ideas of sociopathology. Our prison system is a mess for a number of reasons, but one of the big ones is that the right wing has spread the lie of "incurable" criminality, which now extends down to any crime whatsoever. It's stupid.

I like Vick. I hope he keeps doing well.

[roody]

5. How does your dog feel about Vick?

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. I don't have a dog

Nor am I convinced it's relevant.

He was punished according to the laws we have. Some people don't think that's enough. They should change the law. At this point, he's served his time, seems contrite, and is moving on. So should we. We need to model appropriate behavior vis-a-vis people who have committed crimes. There's no point in having an established legal code if the *real* punishment people want is permanent banishment. We are either a nation of laws or a pre-modern revenge society. I'd prefer the first. I'll leave you to your intuitions on the feelings of dogs, and the latter.

[PCIntern]

28. Yeah, well I didn't say that he should go back to jail,

just that it was unconscionable for the Eagles to sign him...the owner is/was a respected animal-rights activist I am made to understand, and yeah yeah "he served his time", but he's sure no 'hero' which everyone in Philly - practically -is now making him out to be. Great athlete - sure, when he wants to be, but great guy to be 'liked'? Not by me...

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Why shouldn't he work in his own field?

I don't understand why he shouldn't be able to work in that particular field after having done his time. I can understand why a fraudster shouldn't be able to work in a finance company after having served time for fraud, and that's part of an established statute. It's not clear to me why Vick shouldn't be able to work in football.

[Kalyke]

7. Actually, animal cruelty has a nearly 100 percent ricidivism rate

and the stats have nothing to do with right-wing-spread propaganda, unless you happen to think the Animal Legal Defense Fund is a haven for Teabaggers. :eyes:

Currently, most states have no mandatory requirements keeping those who are convicted of animal abuse crimes away from animals following their convictions—despite the fact that offenders have demonstrated, through their actions, their utter disregard for the welfare of animals, and that recidivism in hoarding cases can reach 100%.

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5154/t/6035/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=1538

And Vick, in addition to subjecting these dogs to torture, also hoarded them.

I hope, instead of a Superbowl and MVP, gets pelted from the stands with boxes full of very large dog bones.

Some things are unforgivable, and his abuse is.

Edited to add link.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Let me know when Vick gets a new dog

Until then, the statistic seems both irrelevant and demonstrably weak.

[Dappleganger]

15. Let me know when Vick does something demonstrably helpful to society

other than throw a pigskin around to a bunch of mindless fanatics.

[11 Bravo]

34. Something like speaking to kids who share his background, and explaining to them ...

how fucked-up the culture of dog-fighting is? Because he's doing just that.

[Dappleganger]

37. Not enough--they're making him do that.

And beyond it it's only PR for his "image."

[11 Bravo]

43. Wrong, but commonly spewed. He was sentenced to 2 years in prison and 3 years probation.

Nothing more. He served his time.
I write this as a dog-owner of over 40 years, a Philadelphia Eagles hater, and as the current house-sharer with a wife, two sons, and a rescue lab. Still, the recent spurt of Vick threads intrigues me. Perhaps the most telling part of your particular post is the assertion that whatever Vick does "it's only PR for his image". So, it sound like whatever level of atonement or redemption he may seek, Vick is pretty much irredeemable in your eyes.
Maybe if he commits seppuku in your front yard and you then allow your pooch to dine on his entrails?

[Dappleganger]

44. That is absolutely disgusting.

But if he is your idol there is nothing that I can do to change that, is there.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

46. Best Friends take on the Vick article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9599381&mesg_id=9599381

Yes, he is a disgusting excuse for a human being and not redeemable.

[CakeGrrl]

56. So the penalty for him should have been death according to you?

Are you a death penalty advocate in general? Is anyone who takes a human life similarly not redeemable?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

65. BTW

Anyone who puts words into my mouth like that is pretty low in my book. You are pretty close to going on the iggy list.

[11 Bravo]

67. Since you claim I idolize Vick, you need to put yourself in your own fucking book.

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth.

[Dappleganger]

69. bye

welcome to ignore

[11 Bravo]

70. I believe Gloria Gaynor said it best. I will survive ...

Trust me, a newbie brandishing the dreaded ignore carries all the weight of a Sarah Palin threat to spell-check any tweet which she disagrees with.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demoiselle]

9. This isn't about redemption for me.

It is not my place to forgive Vick, or anybody else for their crimes and failings. My problem is that every time I see Mr. Vick's name or hear talk of his prodigious football skills, my mind fills with one image, and one image only: Painfully tortured dogs. The fact that he has spent time in prison and allegedly regrets his actions doesn't erase the image, and I truly cannot bear it, any more than I can roll back time and prevent the awful acts.

THAT is the reason I will avoid watching or reading about Eagles games this year. A few days ago I hid a thread on DU because I couldn't bear the story it told. My avoidance of all things Vick is the same thing. I need to " hide his thread," because it causes me pain.

I'll also hide any Vick threads on this site from now on, but I needed to say my piece.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. I don't begrudge people their personal opinions

But it's not good social policy. What I see in the Vick story is our inability to follow through on a basic premise of our legal system: once you acknowledge your crime and serve the democratically determined penalty, you can rejoin society and flourish. The Vick story points towered that seemingly forgotten basic idea, and it's one of the most important ideas we've lost in the 40 year right wing shift in social practice. It is a fundamental principle of liberal society, and we need to reclaim it.

[kanrok]

21. Sure, in a legal sense

but in the court of public opinion we have no such stricture.

Let's not confuse the two.

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. I don't think I am

[kanrok]

39. Then we agree

n/t

[Dappleganger]

14. Redemption stories?

Give me a break--there are plenty of people who've "redeemed" themselves, but only because Vick is a football superstar does he interest you.

And Vick didn't go off and rob a convenience store--he participated in the mutilation and death of living creatures who were completely helpless, like children. Who you choose to be your hero says a lot about your "values".

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. Uh huh

[de novo]

19. I pay to see him experience a career-ending injury.

[Esscena]

20. I'll pay to see him play too ..

Good Player but superbowl wining MVP...very competitive

[Codeine]

22. The important redemption stories in this case are those of the dogs,

many of whom are doing much better in their new lives.

Vick hasn't changed, he is just making the right noises to get his paycheck.

And he plays a god-damned boring, slow, tedious sport, so fuck him.

[Lucian]

31. He's a sociopath who needs to be punished severely.

He should never have been allowed back in the NFL.

[tallahasseedem]

32. Word...

me too!

[AndrewP]

36. Congrats. I hate Vick and hope he has nothing but failure in his career.

[JoePhilly]

52. I actually got to go the first game he played, last year against the Chiefs.

For all of the screaming about Vick on-line prior to that game, when we got there ... we saw about 5 protesters.

The guy did something illegal, was convicted, went to jail, and now has an opportunity to repair his life.

Normally, folks on the left argue against a judicial system that throws people in jail, with overly harsh sentences, and efforts by the right to ensure that the former felon is never able to re-enter society.

Vick did something illegal, went to jail, is on probation, and appears to be trying to work his way back. Good luck to him.

Personally, I don't look to sports figures as a way to set my moral compass, or that of my kids.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. The Circus is in the Stadiums.

that allows for the Bread to be pasted on.


I think the whole thought process is like looking at a Roman Gladiator.

I wonder if he can sell his Sweat?

[ChiciB1]

10. Kind Of Like Leopards Don't Change Their Spots! I'm An Avid Animal Lover

and have 2 chocolate labs, a cat and a multitude of squirrels and other furry things I feed, every single day. I only need to go outside in my yard and talk and squirrels "talk" with me, so I'm quite biased about this.

Do I feel he's redeemed, I don't think HE IS. But I do believe some people can change and never go back to bad behavior. Some DO learn a lesson, I happen to know of two people who were a meth addicts and DID stop BY THEMSELVES and have been clean for over 2 years. Don't even smoke cigarettes or anything anymore. Don't even drink anymore, and that is quite astonishing today! I know them "personally" and see them all the time. They live very close to me and I babysit their 2 year old son a lot. THEY are my son and his wife! But they will tell you that they still "think" about it and know that it would be easy to slip back. They take ONE DAY AT A TIME, and they have to say it EVERY SINGLE DAY!

But they have the rest of our family close by to help and support them. We had 2 horrible, horrible years wondering if they would live or die. Do we still worry, yes... but so far so good! My grandson most probably was their savior!

I still think of leopards though, even if I don't remind them of where they were, only of what they've become.

As for Vick, for me the jury is still out. Even my kids are animal lovers and have many of their own.

Studies have shown that many people who abuse animals also go on to commit worse crimes. I'm just sayin'

[pacalo]

13. I lost my Boston Terrier for a week near a bad neighborhood.

Every day I drove those streets searching for him in tears -- he's our little toddler. One young boy I stopped to talk to told me that he was probably picked up by a gang who fought dogs for money, then threw them into the large canal when they could no longer fight. I had no idea this was going on & I started crying. It made the rest of my week even more distraught.

We found our dog after 7 torturous days, but the horror of what that young boy will always stay with me.

No Michael Vick for me. Dogs have feelings, too. I can't read "Call of the Wild" without crying.

[Biker13]

16. Good For You!

Big time dog lover here, and I applaud your decision. I'm only human,(unlike those poor pups) and there are some things I just cannot forgive.

I bet his dogs have forgiven him though. There is no more loving creature than a dog...

Now come over here and support the NY Giants! We're a better team anyway!

Biker's Old Lady

[tritsofme]

17. dupe

[tritsofme]

18. I will be with you next Sunday when he comes to Chicago.

But otherwise I'm just here to watch the show, and he has put on a great one this season.

[Missy Vixen]

23. Good for you

Talk radio in Seattle this week was on FIRE with Vick apologists - after all, Seattle could conceivably sign him as a free agent. If that ever happened, I would break up with the team I've been watching and supporting for 33 years without a second thought.

I'm sure you heard that Goodell is "texting or on the phone" with Vick several times a week, according to ESPN last night. The flameout will most likely take him down as well, which I won't cry over.

Damn right it's not a "mistake".

[roody]

24. The good thing about him is that he raised the public's

consciousness about animal abuse. His sporting success keeps animal welfare in the public eye.

[PCIntern]

27. that's the sunnyside of it...

and Pol Pot reaised our consciousness about genocide...

I know I know...you can't equate the cruelty, but then again, the logic's the same IMO. Others might disagree.

I can't get over him electrocuting HIS OWN PET. Sorry...

[roody]

30. I didn't know that. I don't follow sports.

[madinmaryland]

33. What is really ironic, is that Eagles Fans have always had a reputation just as bad as Vick's

reputation is.

The cheering at players getting injured, sometimes seriously, has led me to believe an Eagles fan who hates Michael Vick really needs to look in the mirror.

Un-recommending this thread for your hypocrisy.

[JoePhilly]

53. Yes, all Eagles fans are evil ... hilarious.

As a life long Eagles fan, I find the anger about Vick, both in Philly, and outside Philly ... pretty ridiculous.

And one of the only things funnier, is how so many outside Philly think they understand Philly fans.

I hate to break the news to you, but the people who run the various sports leagues are INVESTED in the anger of rivalries.

How do you think the Cowboys became "America's Team"? Was there a vote??

Or how the Flyers became the "Broad Street Bullies"?

I find it amusing, that the "City of Brotherly love" is also somehow also the home of the "nastiest fans".

If you understand all the positioning for what it is, entertainment, a way to draw in viewers, it all makes sense. How do you get some one in part of the country to care about a game between two teams that are nowhere near them.

You give them heroes and villains.

[VMI Dem]

35. Eagles fans standing firm against horrible behavior. Ironic indeed.

[madinmaryland]

42. The irony is incredible, as I have noted also!

:rofl:

Philly has always been known as the hell-hole of sports fans!

[Greyhound]

38. K&R. Good for you. n/t

[IScreamSundays]

40. That's right!!

Go 'Skins!!

[backwoodsbob]

41. I hope Vick throws for 500 and ten yd's nt

[flvegan]

48. Says the guy who shot his own nephew's dog.

The shock!

[CreekDog]

45. If you don't need to forgive Bush for what he did, why Vick for what he did?

They aren't my home team, but one of a couple others that I generally rooted for. But I stopped when I couldn't feel good about doing so with him on the field.

[JoePhilly]

51. Talk about a false equivilency ... nt

[CreekDog]

54. then explain to me why i have to forgive Michael Vick or anybody for that matter?

nt to you.

[madinmaryland]

58. Nothing about forgiving Vick, but he has served his sentence.

One should actually be concerned about an Eagles fan bitching about Vick, when they have the reputation of cheering when a player from the opposing team is badly injured. Eagles fans are douchebags.

[madinmaryland]

59. You were one of those guys cheering when Michael Irvin was wounded at the old vet.

uN-FUCKING-believable.

Edited to add: Were you happy when Joe Theismann got injured?

Sick, just very, sick.

[JoePhilly]

72. I did not do any of the things you accuse me of .... however ...

After reading your post above ... attacking me in a pretty vile way ... and claiming I did things that I did not do ... and then suggesting that I am "sick" ...

Well ... I might ... I might just cheer if you were injured.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Now THAT, you CAN-FUCKING Believe.

[Barack_America]

49. Good on you.

Recommended.

[Stinky The Clown]

55. Thank you

I think you're doing the right thing and I appreciate it.

[pipi_k]

57. Much as I admire your principles in this...

being an animal lover myself, the sad truth of it is, as long as he keeps doing what he did to the Redskins last week, he'll be a valued (money-wise) part of the team.

Personally, I can hardly look at the man without feeling disgust.

[merh]

60. As an American who believes in the constitution; as someone

who has worked in corrections and in the legal field for years and who thinks our justice system is the best in the world; and, as a spiritual person who believes in forgiveness, I think Vick did his time and has made changes in his life. He is not the same man that did the time, he never will be (and there is really no such thing as country club incarceration).

Move on, he is trying to.

[Saboburns]

61. I choose to forgive him and move on

This is a red hot button issue here.

What he did to the dogs is horrible. I am a dog person, I have 6 strays who I've picked up over the years, they live with me and are among my best friends.

I can not forget what he did, but I choose not to hate him. Seems there are a bunch here who would like to keep him locked up forever. Not me. The man spent time in a Federal Institution, paid a fine.


I say let the man move on. He's a human, I'm a human. We humans make mistakes. We fuck up.

So it's just my opinion, I respect yours. But i say, let him live his life, let him move on.

[Barack_America]

62. I chose to not forgive him and move on.

He's not worth my hatred, but I will not forgive him.

[CakeGrrl]

63. I agree on all points, as a fellow dog owner and animal lover.

It is a hot issue, and it triggers people differently, obviously.

For some reason, I consider that he did his time and is trying to move on - unlike others in the media spotlight who shirk and duck responsibility for their actions.

Obviously, opinions will vary as to whether some think he's sincere or "redeemable" in his efforts.

[PCIntern]

68. I don't HAVE to like him just 'cause he's an Iggle...

I don't like Reid at all whatsoever and I know what this franchise is up to: they've quintupled the value of the team wince Reid has taken over and from a business standpoint, Reid and Banner and Lurie are successful. The fact of the matter is that they were the only team which showed an interest in Vick, and the reason is money and winning. And that's fine...my disinterest in the team at this point is my right....oh, and BTW, they should play him: he's the best athlete on the team BY FAR...at any position, as was Randall Cunningham all those years ago. That being said, it's within my rights not to support them or their sponsors as long as he and Reid are with the organization. Yes, I know it's trivial...but believe me, I'm not alone in this and would rather be on my side than the other side...

[DainBramaged]

71. Vick is a blemish on humanity, but he did his time per our justice system

and I hope he does something good for society before he dies.


THAT is why we have a justice system, and because (just like the Repukes), you may disagree with that system and the punishment meted out, does not mean you can change it. YOUR money is yours to do with as you please however.


Personally, you NEED to become a Yankees fan.