New Progressive Poll: Shall We Forgive All Debts and Start Over?

[kenm]

I have created a new progressive poll that I would very much appreciate if you would all vote in.

http://define.com

There are 4 paragraphs, then a question.

Here is the poll text:

Let's give majority consensus-based Democracy a try for a change!

A GLOBAL REFERENDUM

Concerning Our Environment, the Banking Industry and Our Collective Liberty.

Make Your Opinion Count - CAST YOUR VOTE and See the Latest Results Live!

Enough is enough. Our global petroleum-based economy and international commercial banking systems are in desperate need of reform. Our central banks are secretive, non-transparent and corrupt. They have become organized criminal shell games and ponzi schemes managed and controlled by Wall Street insiders and shadowy international bankers who have completely taken over our increasingly secretive political systems. Their puppet politicians ignore proven science, sound reason and basic human compassion in order to perpetuate obscene corporate profits. Their combined public environmental protection and poverty relief efforts are completely ineffective to the point of being farcically absurd. It is now without question or doubt. They absolutely do not represent the best interests of the majority of the people - the common citizens of our planet.



The simple truth is that the average human brain is very poor at long-term thinking and even rudimentary mathematics. Ordinary, hard-working, honest and well-intentioned people are lured by immediate rewards into becoming voracious dumbed-down consumers who accept debt-plus-interest credit obligations that are nearly impossible to repay, by intentional design of the money lenders who prey on this fallacy of human nature. As a result, the overwhelming majority of citizens have managed to end up deeply indebted to the richest of the rich and the greediest of the greedy - the international corporate for-profit banking institutions. The exceptions are the billions of people who are trapped in never-ending poverty because they are unable to receive credit in the first place.



It's time that we put a stop to this large-scale, wholesale, systematic, institutionalized, government-sanctioned plundering of our liberty and freedom and environmental health. We need to level the playing field, wipe the slate clean, and start fresh with a new non-profit banking system, directly owned and democratically controlled entirely by the citizens - all of us - one person, one non-transferable voting share each. This new democratic bank, with the authority to create capital as society demands, could honor the insured deposits of the too-big-to-fail commercial banks, which would be allowed, at last, to fail. This true bank of the people, as a non-profit, will grant loans at zero interest, which is, after all, the only fair rate there is.



With this new fresh start, we could immediately replace our petroleum-based economy with a truly Earth-friendly green economy, making the economics of clean energy affordable to all at last. It would also enable us to provide the poor, unemployed and retired with a Basic Income Guarantee sufficient to provide a high quality of life in modernity and much-needed Universal Health Care. This would render our IRS, government-based welfare programs, unemployment insurance programs, Social Security and Medicare programs, and many humanitarian non-governmental organizations (NGOs) unnecessary.

Will you vote, if given the opportunity, to forgive all debts, public and commercial, with the legal provision that you be allowed to keep the car that you drive, the home that you live in, and all your personal possessions free and clear, without owing debts or mortgage payments to any commercial banks, so that you can live freely, without fear or threat of homelessness or eviction?

[cleanhippie]

1. So what happens to all the people and corporation that are OWED the money?

[kenm]

2. What happens to the people who are owed the money?

Insured bank deposits would be transferred to a new global nonprofit bank with the authority to create electronic capital as needed.

Basically it just takes the "for-profit" out of the banking system and puts the people in charge of the money. Personal debts are not included in this offer, although it would be nice if we could all agree to let those go to. But this is specifically referring to commercial and public debt.

Here's the text that you get when you vote YES:

Thank you for your vote. You're one of us. The word is define. Spread the word. Please pass this URL on to all of your forward-thinking friends, coworkers, family members, social contacts, chat rooms, Facebook friends, mailing lists, Twitter feeds, blog posts, letters to the editor, faxes and e-mails to politicians and anyone else you can think of.

We can do this if we put our heads together. All options are on the table. For real. This really does need to be done. We just have to do it calmly, carefully and peacefully. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. Here we are - we're on the same page. Now we must work together and take whatever peaceful action is necessary to get the job done without doing harm. We need to use our brains and think this through, out in the open as much as possible, without creating a massive panic or widespread fear.

This is real Democracy, with a capital "D." We need TOTAL TRANSPARENCY - as much as possible, without getting anybody hurt. What we have now is nothing close to that. We can combine our talents to fix this. We need to give our scientists, academics, artists, musicians, actors, directors, writers, storytellers, nurses, doctors, school teachers, reporters, bloggers, engineers, architects, humanitarians, environmentalists and other intelligent, creative and compassionate people a shot at running the show for a change, instead of always just the bankers, CEOs, religious leaders and professional politicians.

To minimize fraud and cheating, votes are registered by the i.p. address of your computer, and each i.p. address can vote only once. So this is more a "democracy of computers" than of people at the moment. If each citizen had a password-protected iPhone, or if we each had a secret PIN number, we could positively identify each person and we could all vote online during elections, instead of using paper ballots.

We could also personally cast our vote for every decision that affects our individual interests, at any time of the day, on any day of the year. If that were the case, we wouldn't need Presidents, Governors, Senators and other Representatives in government making all our decisions for us, as we could simply represent ourselves directly on the internet. This way, the corporations wouldn't be controlling our public policy and our money, and we could actually get more things done in much less time. This would make progress happen more quickly, so that a brighter future can arrive sooner, rather than later.

[ZombieHorde]

3. edit You received a better answer. nt

[ljm2002]

5. If they still owed THEIR debts then it would be highly unfair to them...

...however, the deal seems to be debt forgiveness for everyone, so I fail to see the problem.

The concept of a Jubilee year is ancient and has been used throughout history to deal with the fact that inequality tends to build up over time, especially due to interest owed on debts.

I think it's a great idea and should be built into our system to kick in every so often.

Instead we have a system that ends up being punitive to the majority of people, while allowing others to live like monarchs.

[cleanhippie]

7. Im trying to wrap my head around this.....

So, if you owed me 100K for a loan I made to you, that would be forgiven and I would be out 100K?

Sure, any debt I had would also be forgiven, but what if my debt was only 10k? Thats a 90k net loss for me.

I am trying to see the upside to this for me (in my hypothetical example).

[kenm]

14. Private debts not included in this deal

This deal doesn't include private debts, although it would be nice if people all got into the forgiving spirit.

[cleanhippie]

27. So it is only institutional debt that is forgiven?

Mortgages, credit cards, car loans, etc.?

What is the upside for these companies to forgive all that debt?

[kenm]

28. There is no upside for the money-lenders, except all execs get early retirement in their nice homes

These companies would all fail. They wouldn't have a choice.

Corporations don't get a vote.

The CEOs and executives can all cast their individual votes, but their votes count the same as everybody elses.

They could all go home to their large plush homes and could just retire there debt free. Maybe take up golfing or fishing.

Basically you just create a snapshot of the status quo, except everybody is free and out of debt.

[cleanhippie]

29. Considering that all companies are owned and operated by actual people

I am not following how this idea would ever get off the ground. The same people who would want their debt forgiven would also be the ones that own and work at these companies. Not only would their investments be worthless, their jobs would cease to exists.
I just do not see how this idea would work in the real world. In theory it seems like a good idea, but in practice, it would devastate the entire world economy, plunging BILLIONS of people into poverty and joblessness.

I don't get it.

[kenm]

30. People would still have their checking and savings

People who still have all of their real assets, except they would own them for themselves, instead of the bank.

They checking and savings accounts could be transferred to the non-profit bank, so people still have all their personal savings.

The object of the game to to provide the maximum number of people with real, true freedom. Freedom to live.

Real freedom means you don't have work if you don't want to.

For people who want to make money to save, they can work in the jobs that are truly essential to society. And those would become high paying jobs, because they would be compensated based on the true value to society.

Garbage collectors would be wealthy.

[cleanhippie]

31. Like I said, it all looks great in theory.

In the real world, not so much. I just do not see what the BILLIONS of people would do that no longer have a job because it was not "truly essential to society."

[kenm]

32. People would still want to work, but not have to, so they could choose rewarding jobs

Many people would choose to continue working, except they'd work in ways that are enjoyable to them.

It's a basic human need to be of service and to be creative. So this in no way means that everybody would be unemployed all of a sudden.

Except for the bankers.

[cleanhippie]

33. I think you are being a bit short sighted and fantastical.

Maybe you are not seeing the word... BILLIONS.....


Thats BILLIONS of people that would instantly lose their incomes and have no job, other than to look for this mystical "enjoyable" job you speak of.

Look, I like your idea. It has merit. But I just fail to see how it could work in the real world.

[tridim]

4. At the very least credit scores MUST be reset.

People should not take credit hits due to a larger situation that isn't their fault. Like a massive recession caused by Republican deregulation of the banks.

[kenm]

6. Credit Bureaus

Credit bureaus are just big corporations.

This would wipe out the credit card companies.

Since the citizens would own their global bank, that bank could buy the major credit bureaus and we could start over.

This would be big time major change.

[Octafish]

8. Jubilee.

Worked in the Bible. And it worked for Wall Street.

[Zebedeo]

9. I'll borrow all of your money

for the next 100 years at 0% interest. Since that is the only fair rate, I am sure you will find these terms agreeable. Just PM me your phone number and we'll make the arrangements.

[kenm]

11. Loan Approval Process

It's unlikely that you would be granted loan approval by a citizen-owned nonprofit bank for *ALL* their money.

You'd have to be approved just like with any other bank, except this one would be democratically controlled by all the citizens, one person, one non-transferable voting share each.

The citizens could elect panels to approve loans based on certain criteria that those different panels apply when evaluating whether it's a socially beneficial investment.

If you can't get approval from the nonprofit bank, maybe you can get approval at a different for-profit bank, if they have any customers left.

[druidity33]

10. interesting. K&R. nt.

[mainer]

12. Ya think a debtor started this poll?

It's easier than declaring bankruptcy.

[kenm]

13. If you're a US Citizen, you're a debtor too, like it or not.

We're all debtors in the U.S. whether we like it or not.

[Codeine]

15. I'm not entirely sure you understand what "scientific" means. nt

[kenm]

16. Scientific means that the accuracy is controlled.

This is guaranteed accuracy, one vote per i.p. address.

Nonscientific polls cannot guarantee accuracy.

[Codeine]

17. No. A scientific poll is weighted

to correct for demographic differences.

As I said, you do not understand what a scientific poll is.

[kenm]

18. You're right. I'll reword it.

OK. You're right. I just researched that. I'm going to take out the word scientific.

[notesdev]

19. Logical fallacy alert

"the billions of people who are trapped in never-ending poverty because they are unable to receive credit in the first place."

Credit is not a necessity of life and is not a requirement to lifting people out of poverty.

There is an alternative idea that you should explore, it's the Biblical concept of the Jubilee. It is similar to what you propose but does not share the flaws of this proposal.

[kenm]

20. What are the logical fallacies? Please explain "Jubilee" further if you can

Can you explain what the logical fallacies are in this proposal?

I'm happy to edit the text of the poll and to refine the ideas if there are better ones to be had.

[notesdev]

21. the fallacy is the assertion of need for credit (debt) to not be in poverty

Credit is the bankers' name for your debt. Anyone who takes out debt is poorer, not wealthier. Debt is ONLY useful when the money is used directly to increase productivity, therefore increasing net revenues above and beyond what is necessary to service the interest payments. In the main, debt increases poverty, not decreases it, as by the very definition of the practice it requires that the borrower pay more than he borrowed, reducing the economic surplus for every borrower and diverting it to the bank.

This is the business that banks are in nowadays, by the way - they believe they have a divine right to divert the entirety of the planet's economic surplus into interest payments on debt. <--- emphasized because this is both important and a supremely evil goal that must be stopped!

With regards to the Jubilee - it's a concept right out of the Old Testament, the basic idea is that at specific intervals of time all debts are zeroed out and everyone gets to start over. Not only does this prevent usurers from getting too far out of hand, but it also gives hope to people who got in over their heads, that they have not condemned themselves to a lifetime sentence. As I am not a Bible expert I will have to refer you to those who have done more in-depth work on the subject - look it up, there are organizations out there already trying to make it happen, and various explorations of the subject have been done over the past four thousand years.

Here's the Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28Biblical%29

[kenm]

22. Zero interest debt is not the same as Greedy Banker Debt

Thanks for that.

Basically, I'm coming from the perspective of asking the question:

What if we had all the money in the world? How could we solve the world's problems?

If we let go of the current economic system and globally organized to start a new non-profit monetary system, then we would literally have "all the money in the world", and we could democratically decide how to help all the people of the world.

Maybe we don't need to give the poor "loans", maybe we could give them "development grants," with no expectation of repayment.

[notesdev]

25. Zero interest doesn't work

One default and you're in the negative and have no way to replenish that money.

What's to stop people from defaulting, regardless of the interest rate? Nothing. Sometimes people just can't pay and nothing can be done about it, and the lender has to eat the loss.

The solution is DEBT FREE LIVING not trying to come up with a kinder, gentler debt slavery system.

[kenm]

26. It does if you can create your own money

Not if you can make your own money.

Remember, this is a global bank, owned and controlled democratically by all of the citizens equally.

Money that a debtor borrows and is unable to repay just ends up back in the accounts of the same bank anyway.

One option is to have a dual currency system.

One currency, gold-backed, persistent.

The other currency, temporary, electronic, short lifespan.

This would allow a basic income guarantee.

The poor, unemployed and retired to basically get an allowance that expires if not used.

The object of the game is to make sure that the majority of the people always have play money in their pocket, but without creating inflation.

I'm talking about a real democracy here. Completely replacing the government with a truly egalitarian citizen-owned economy. We can make the rules however is necessary to make sure that everybody is at least provided with enough operating credits to participate in society and have shelter, mobility and health care.

[Lucian]

23. Project Mayhem.

No need to say more.

[kenm]

24. Project Real Democracy

What if the citizens of the internet began to represent ourselves instead of using elected representatives to decide how to spend our money and make our laws?

If you want Project Mahem, try this: http://define.com/?item=15

[Lucian]

34. I'm willing to bet you've never read Fight Club or seen the movie, have you?

[kenm]

37. Saw it. I see your point.

Yeah, that movie doesn't speak too highly about human nature, does it?

[NNN0LHI]

35. Could I get like a three week heads up on when this takes effect so I can go buy some stuff?

:o

[FreeJoe]

36. Not for me

As someone nearing retirement age, I don't think I'm a supporter of this. It sounds like a big chunk of my savings (my bond funds, my treasuries, my municipal bonds) all suddenly become worthless, destroying almost all the money I've saved over 40 years of work. The social security trust fund gets completely wiped out, putting that income source in jeopardy.

I'm curious as to how it would work for my brother-in-law and nephew. My nephew recently bought my brother-in-law's AC repair business, financing the purchase with loan. I think (I don't really know the details) that the business owns the loan, so my BIL would lose everything. Or maybe my nephew is personally carrying the loan, in which case BIL is OK but nephew loses out on the jubilee lottery.

OK, after thinking about it for a bit, I just don't like it. I'd prefer to see the system fixed with more progressive taxation and a stronger safety net, not some arbitrary abrogation of business contracts. I can't imagine how the economy could survive such a shock.

[kenm]

38. You could always cash out before this takes effect

Hmm. As for social security, this would provide a basic income guarantee to replace that.

You could always cash out your bond funds, treasuries and municipal bonds and put the money into FDIC insured savings accounts before the transition, in which case those funds would be safely honored by the new citizen-owned bank.

As for your brother in law and nephew, their FDIC insured funds would remain safe, and any *private* loans between them wouldn't be affected. This just affects sovereign and commercial debt.

No need for the whole economy to be wiped out, just the for-profit banking institutions.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. So your answer is a global wide run on the banks?

[kenm]

42. No. Simply transfer the deposits on the books to the non-profit bank

No, absolutely not.

Banks obviously don't have the deposits in their assets, due to fractional reserve banking.

But they do have good computerized records of how much those deposits are.

All you have to do is transfer that deposit data to the citizen-owned bank and honor the deposits from there.

[galileoreloaded]

44. Thats already in the works. December 7th of this year. n/t

[ileus]

39. Yes.....let's do it.

[Motown_Johnny]

40. Are you including the banks that owe their depositors the money in their accounts?

If so, you are crazy

If not, then where are the banks supposed to come up with that money when most of it is loaned out to others who would not need to pay it back under your plan?

[kenm]

43. No. Simply transfer the deposits on the books to the non-profit bank

No, absolutely not.

Banks obviously don't have the deposits in their assets, due to fractional reserve banking.

But they do have good computerized records of how much those deposits are.

All you have to do is transfer that deposit data to the citizen-owned bank and honor the deposits from there.