Going Dutch : "Dutch Women Don't Get Depressed"

[SoCalDem]

Very good article...



Women in the Netherlands work less, have lesser titles and a big gender pay gap, and they love it.

By Jessica OlienPosted Monday, Nov. 15, 2010, at 10:14 AM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2274736

I've been in the Netherlands for nearly three months now, and I've come to one overwhelming conclusion: Dutch women are not like me. I worry about my career incessantly. I take daily stock of its trajectory and make vicious mental critiques of my endeavors. And I know—based on weekly phone conversations with friends in the United States—that my masochistic drive for success is widely shared among my female friends. Meanwhile, the Dutch women around me take a lackadaisical approach to their careers. They work half days, meet their friends for coffee at 2 p.m., and pity their male colleagues who are stuck in the office all day.

Though the Netherlands is consistently ranked in the top five countries for women, less than 10 percent of women here are employed full-time. And they like it this way. Incentives to nudge women into full-time work have consistently failed. Less than 4 percent of women wish they had more working hours or increased responsibility in the workplace, and most refuse extended hours even when the opportunity for advancement arises. Some women cite the high cost of child care as a major factor in their shorter hours, but 62 percent of women working part time in the Netherlands don't have young children in the house, and mothers rarely increase their working hours even when their children leave home.

It's hard not to wonder: Have we gotten it all wrong? In the United States, the race for equality has gone mostly in one direction. Women want to shatter the glass ceiling, reach the top spots in the hierarchy, and earn the same respect and salaries as men do. But perhaps this situation is setting us up for a world in which none of us is having any fun. After all, studies of female happiness in the U.S. find that even as our options have increased and we have become financially more independent than in any previous time in our history, American women as a whole are not getting any happier. If anything, the studies show that we are emotionally less well-off than we were before. Wasn't the whole point of the fight for equality in the workplace to improve our wellbeing?


snip

[bobbolink]

1. This feminist thinks the Dutch women have it right!

:applause: for women of The Netherlands!

edited to say... just so you know... I R'd it, even though it doesn't show up. Must be some threatened males....

[BrklynLiberal]

2. They do not HAVE t work to get all the benefits that come only to working women in this country.

Maybe these Dutch women should be compared to the women of the 50's, when a stay-at-home Mom was the norm, as opposed to those in this country now.
In the 50's, a husband could provide most if not all the necessities and benefits for his family on HIS salary alone.

It is nice to have a net to catch you if you fall. The Dutch do. We do not. I do not think that the vast majority of working women today are working because they PREFER to. Most of them have no choice, whether it is to provide only for themselves, or for their families as well.

[bettyellen]

5. they should be compared to the women of the 50's, they work for less money and less frequently

it would be great for eveyone if health insurance was taken out of the equation and men and women felt theyhad more control over their employment options, but it doesn;t mean the dutch system is at all fairer to women, they are definately problems with the work culture there that so many women feel it is not worth their while. That;s not good.

[Warpy]

7. It makes a big difference if you have actual choices in life

and most American women do not. We can't choose to work half days and still get benefits and adequate money into social security. We can't choose to work half days and pay that child care bill. We can't choose to work half days and pay that mortgage. Above all, we can't choose to work half days to get our kids health insurance.

We also don't choose overwork when we get home, although younger men are generally a little better in that department than the men we old broads got stuck with were.

If we had a safety net and adequate services for mothers in this country, you bet American women would be a damned sight happier. As it is, it's puzzling that our suicide rate isn't higher.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. +1000

[truedelphi]

22. We American women also don't have much impact on the fact that US Tax Code has not

been updated in the decades since the fifties.

In the fifties, a man working as an Accountant in the city of Chicago could make enough to
have $ 1,000 in the bank at all times, a two week vacation every year, health insurance, and decent neighborhood and schools for the kids. On a salary of only $ 5,500 annually.

How was this possible? Because the taxes on a $ 5,500 income were minor.

But now that it costs over $ 50K a year to have that decent quality of life, a couple needs to have two wage earners, just to help out on the income tax side of things!

It is definitely NOT THE RICH who need to have the tax help. It is the middle incomed person. And it needs to be a full adjustment of the tax code, and not the minor help we get via George W or Obama give backs, which are always minor when compared to the real damage done by inflation of wages and the taxation at these higher levels.

[Orangepeel]

79. Yeah, it's taxes that are keeping a $50,000 household from having a decent quality of life

It's not housing or health insurance or electronics or a second car. It's taxes. That sounds right to me.

The marginal tax rate for someone earning between $4000 - $8000 a year in 1952 - 1953 was 24.6%.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=474

[mistertrickster]

86. In fairness, the tax breaks for kids were a lot higher. But I agree: taxes were a small part. nt

[Doremus]

102. Bunk. nt

[bettyellen]

31. but those choices are open to men as well (and i think it;s wonderful) but aside from

that why is it at all okay that there is such a huge wage gap between men and women? it;s unfair to women who want to work, who have no other means of support and for women who cannot have kids. Something is messed up with the system that so many women opt out. Im definately going to read more about it.

[StarsInHerHair]

39. well those Dutch women are happy with a big gender pay gap

so............

[bettyellen]

45. no, this is one person's anecdotal "observation", ha ha.

and women saying they don;t want more of what is offered: shitty work for shitty pay, does not in any way mean they do not want more. the article is BS.

[DutchLiberal]

67. I'd like to see some stats to back that up, because it sounds like BS to me...

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. I think it's likely to be habitual, profound stress and insecurity in most cases.

I was listening to Kris Kristofferson's 'Me and Bobby McGee' the other day, and it had me musing a great deal about then and now.
Was there ever a more perfect song? So many simple but deep ideas evoking the 'hippie' era of the sixties, all seamlessly woven into a natural thread of thoughts and reminiscenses.

I can't think of a single thing that reflects so badly on the past thirty years of inhuman corporate greed and the personal frenzy for financial security and personal status that it endgenders, than the thought that it's inconceivable that such a song as this - never mind that it's a master-piece - could have been written since those golden post WWII decades of the fifties and sixties. And I speak as a Brit. I can't imagine how I'd feel as an American.

[Mimosa]

112. Such as health insurance or access to health care. n/t

[bettyellen]

3. the fight for equality in the workplace being dismissed because work isn;t fun?

seriously, it didn;t occur to these people that women may not want to work more hours because the pay gap is so bug they feel ripped off.
i can't believe anyone would post her indefense of less opportunity or parity for women. how do Dutch women pay the bills, are they all supposed to be dependant on men? Seriously?

[SoCalDem]

6. Nope.. they have a decent SOCIETAL safety net

and can count on it. With the employers "begging" them to work more hours, I'm pretty sure that the women who choose to work more, can.. It;s just that, as a group, MOST of the women have decided that life may really BE too short...and that their children are only young for a short time, and if they can afford to live on less, they choose to do it:)

[bettyellen]

25. they can work-but only at at a lower pay rate than men, and lower pay would discourage them

from working, would it not? It;s literally made less worthwhile for women, so they do it less. Not a surprising outcome.
sorry, but I did acknowledge the safety net and understand how it helps here but was not talking about it Men in Holland are compensated much better and have a safety net too.

I'm talking about equal pay and equal opportunity. And the ability to have a career pay your own rent and be fairly compensated for your work. if you don;t want to acknowledge that this sort of discrimination in hiring practices is wrong and focus on other issues, please respond to others who don;t care about equal pay for equal work.

[DutchLiberal]

68. Correction: we HAD one, 30 years ago...

Nowadays, not much is left of the social safety net (although, in American eyes, it will look like a socialist utopia). Social security has been consistently cut over the past decades, when the Dutch governments took over the American neo-liberal economic model. Right now, the most extreme right-wing government ever has just been installed, so we expect everything to get even much worse...

[SoCalDem]

92. What you have left, is still a LOT more than we'll ever have here

and the memory of having had it, could spur a backlash that will "throw your bums out"..

fingers crossed for you...(I'm out of dreams for us:(..)

[DutchLiberal]

93. The Dutch seem to be apathetic to it...

Now, when the French government recently announced plans to raise the retirement age, the whole country went on strike. Young and old, students and workers, everybody was on the streets in the millions. The French couldn't get gas for their cars for days, because the truck drivers were on strike and refused to supply the gas stations. All public transportation was shut down.And the overwhelming majority of the French approved of the actions.

But meanwhile, in Holland... people bitch and moan about their social security getting cut and their retirement age being raged, sitting in front of their tv. When the unions called for demonstrations, a miserable 300 elderly people showed up. This weekend, their was a mass demonstration in 70 cities, in which tens of thousand of people participated. But it was aimed against the government's plans to cut in the budget for the Arts, and raising taxes on theater and concert tickets from 8% to 19%. Now I'm not saying culture and art isn't important, but it seems people will only get into the streets when they're going to have to pay €10 more for a concert or movie ticket. In other words: when their 'right' to entertainment is being threatened.

The cuts in social security and other benefits have been widely publicized, yet opinion polls show that the governing coalition of parties has *won* 5 more seats in parliament, if elections would take place now. Apparently, this is what people want...?

[CTyankee]

14. what do you mean when you say "less opportunity'?

I'm not sure that everybody wants to work ruthless hours for the bucks if they could find self realization elsewhere AND the bills were paid, as it seems they are by what the article says.

It seems to me that the difference between the U.S. and Holland here is that women have MORE control over their lives there than we do. Yes, this system has an "opportunity cost" that we would reject here. But for them, it's losing pay parity to achieve goals in their lives that they choose for themselves. I'm not sure that ambition and the need to fulfill their potential has disappeared from these women's lives.

[bettyellen]

29. What are men trading off for their higher salaries? How is this fair to singles or women who can;t

have kids or husband;s "higher" wage to support them? Having less opportunity means if they are less well represented in the workplace, and compensated less than fellow workers, then employment opportunities are lessened. despite them being "happier" overall. The article I think is making some absurd connections, and they are completely offensive to any woman who does work to support herself. Again, how do single women pay the same bills men do, and not be cheated? Or is okay for society to pay women less because some will be on the baby track? Because to me, this is a throwback to the fifties. I don;t get why anyone would celebrate this here. We already all understand that europe has a better health care system, that is a given and I understand how that helps every body have freer happier lives, and be able to work less or more flexible hours. I am all over that, it;s great everybody should have it. But what is happening over there to the workplace that it is such an unattractive option to women? I have to wonder.

[CTyankee]

36. I wonder too, but I think we have to look at women's overall life in contrast to ours.

You are looking at this thru a looking glass of the U.S.A.of either the 50s or today. They have a very different society. Canyou not see that women have a greater opportunity for self realization there than women here?

I think what is unattractive to women in the workplace is the hideous work hours. I don't think Dutch men have those work hours but whatever hours they DO have, women aren't in favor of them. So where does that lead us? Do they want to paint or write novels or screenplays or just be with their kids? Those are CHOICES that women in this country don't have. I think that is the difference.

[bettyellen]

42. well see, I think they may also might be much less in favor because of the compensation?

i read the article, and only 25% of the women are capable of supporting themselves, so most are depending on men's larger paychecks, so I see it as very analogous to the fifties.
maybe they make better choices but with the divorce rate what it is, i have to wonder wonder how many women are trapped by this financial disparity and lack of opportunity for good jobs. so the free time is a bone to toss them for their lack of freedom. women are shut out of real opportunity there, and no, there are no amount of free time for hobbies that will make that up for many of them.

[CTyankee]

53. First of all I don't know what the Dutch rate of divorce is. I also don't know what the

Dutch social network supplies them if women are divorced. It is possible that our divorce rate has something to do with our LACK of a social safety net.

Secondly, I don't view the Dutch women's choice as a "bone to toss them for their lack of freedom." How is it a lack of freedom if they can pursue what they are destined to do? You see it as a 'hobby". Maybe they see it as a lifetime project...

[bettyellen]

58. never mind, you want to ignore the main point and nitpick, what a waste of time.

[CTyankee]

41. We shouldn't "celebrate it here." Absolutely not.

But this is not HOlland. This is not their system, nor their societal norms. You are applying OUR norms to THEIR society and you can't do that...it doesn't work.

You have to start by looking at their overall system there and throughout most of western Europe. It's very different from our mindset here: you are on your own and fight like dogs over what you can get out of the system.

There they have a more humane system so values about the kind of life they live are different from ours. Is this not clear in this article?

[bettyellen]

52. societal norms that leave women utterly dependant and underemployed

aren't really impressing me. sorry. i know europe in general does the safety net better and beleive that THAT contributes to the happiness and well being more than anything here.
and them having less opportunity in the workplace, Im guessing it;s only men who like that part of it the deal. no one wants to be underpaid and have less options. Im suprised anyone here is tip toing around this as if it should be excused.

[I Have A Dream]

4. My only concern with this is whether these women would be able to be financially independent...

if required. As long as this approach doesn't keep them dependent upon men (to their detriment), I think this is wonderful. I encourage more men to have this approach to life as well if it would make them happy. (I am pro-choice in all areas of life, as long as other people aren't being hurt in the process.)

[mainer]

8. Dutch women make men do all the work?

This article is essentially saying that Dutch women don't work very hard, and they make the men do it instead, which is why they're happy.

So are the men depressed?

[SoCalDem]

9. Perhaps they actually share the load?

Their living spaces are probably a lot smaller too, and if they are renting instead of buying, maybe some of the maintenance work does not fall on them.

[elehhhhna]

18. It's VERY slanted. Dutch business is dominated by men. Women who WANT

full time work can't find it so easily and aren't taken very seriously. Nasty little secret.

[bettyellen]

32. I was guessing this was the case, that women are encouraged to take on traditional wife/mother roles

and that the extra hours they are offered are the crappier much less compensated jobs.

[CTyankee]

44. I don't get why you default to that "women have traditional roles vs. men's roles."

I didn't see or hear that in the article. If anything, I heard that Dutch women are progressive, pro choice and generally socialistic and liberal. And they are happy. I have to look at that and ask "What is it about their lives that is so different from ours in the U.S."

[bettyellen]

51. 75% are dependant on someone to support them, IMHO, that is a big throwback

and this article was full of such crap stereotypes and the writer was projecting her own struggles and desires so very much, I thought it wa pretty worthless,

[CTyankee]

55. betty, have you ever been to Holland? Or anywhere else in Europe?

I'd like to hear your impressions, since you seem to know so much about their lives...thanks...

[bettyellen]

57. Scandanavia Ireland Britain France Spain Italy also Russia Chile Argentina China India but no.....

not Holland yet. And thanks for the snarky yet content free response!

In your other replies to me. you completely misread what I said and responded only to your own misreading of it. And not at all to what I was saying, so forgive me if I do not belive for a moment that you are interested in listening.

I been all over the world, and everywhere there are differences, and everywhere (except Sweeden) women complain that if they work they are not paid or treated as well as men.
Is it really that difficult for you to actually acknowledge that ths is my point?
This cultural you don;t know how it is stuff is utter crap when it denies someone equal rights and opportunities. women in countries where they are treated as chattle self report that they are content too, it;s meaningless. that article was utter BS, the misinterpetations and self reflections of one american writer putting her baggage on all women. Silly.

[CTyankee]

91. Betty, you are right...I sounded snarky and shouldn't have and I am sorry.

I have only been to Holland once and that was too long ago to have any bearing on this discussion. I should have said "are you familiar with Holland recently" without sounding sarcastic. My bad.

Your concerns are valid when you talk about single women who may not want to stay at home or marry and have children. I would like to know more about those women in Holland and what they are thinking and doing about this situation. I also want to know what women in the Dutch parliament think about this situation and what the feminist community thinks about it. I am interested in all sides, really, but I should have been more of a listener to you in your threads...my loss, indeed...

[bettyellen]

95. wow, thanks, no hard feelings . i read a bit more about it after. and basically their

economy has been so good no one has to work so many hours. But the gender roles are pretty set, and a lot of "womens work" is filled by wives expecting to volunteer in education and nursing, odd, huh? also schools really push for a parent to be around at lunch hour, so stay at home or PT work is seriously encouraged for moms. And there's a lot of talk about the national zeitgeist is to go along and not make waves, ha ha. I guess DUers would peg them as sheeple.
i think the writer of this article didn't delve too deep and was only thinking she;d love to skate by herself on less hours. (wouldn't we all!) I was just really offended by the part that said women get cheated and love it. That certainly set off some red flags for me, made me wonder what else was going on there. It kind of pissed me off, that everyone here glossed over that, as if it was some thing that could be ethically okay in any modern society.
I'll stop kicking this thread now, because after I read the article, I thought it was real crap, LOL! Take care CT.

[CTyankee]

98. I really feel that national identity has a lot to do with this.

People in Holland have a dutch feeling about themselves and in the USA we don't have that. And the French are french and the Italians are italian and the Swiss are swiss, etc.

This is an issue, I feel. We have to face this. In our country we have a tradition of rights but we don't seem to have one of solidarity with our republic. We have a nation with laws that delineate everyone's rights but we don't have the countervailing idea of a "republic." Who are citizens of a "republic"?

Sure, citizens of a republic can revoke rights of a majority thru a majority vote and that is a problem. We need to have a Bill of Rights that forbids that. So how do we reconcile this issue between the rights of the individual and the members of the republic? When is social policy a matter of individual rights vs. societal values?

In Holland they seem to come down on the side of the republic. Say you are Dutch and therefore you subscribe to these values. OK. But where are the people who don't agree. I'd like to hear from them on this issue because I think their argument is valid.

Your argument is also valid. You argue on behalf of the individual who may differ from the prevaling view. What is their recourse and must they conform if they don't agree or conform to the prevailing view?

This is the central argument, IMO. It is SO difficult in this time of wondering about how we or any government fashions a policy about the value of work and family and the dignity of having a living wage.

[bettyellen]

100. well I think in Europe there was an idea of govt FOR the people,

and for whatever reason, that idea here has been turned on it's head. Our govt serves corporations better than it serves the people now.
Being B+R iin NYC leaves me no idea about the national identity, did we ever have one other than the melting pot? The rest of the country seems to naturally resent NYC, partially for being one, I suspect. Maybe it;s me, I'm not much of a group person, although I find your take interesting. Perhaps we want too many different things.
FWIW Dutch Liberal has some interesting comments here, apparently the sefety net is eroding there and people don;t care to fight it. The RWers have a toe hold now, I bet you anything that will erode their standard of living too. What a shame.

[CTyankee]

101. Yes I take Dutch Liberal's statement into consideration, of course.

I wish I had more, tho. One person is one person. I'd like to know more from a variety of Dutch...young and old, women and men, etc.

A shame, yes, if this idea that we cannot have a decent life in our society. And it is bad. As you say, it will only further erode our standard of living. I am truly alarmed at this this.

[seabeyond]

43. we keep looking towards europe for utopia, and it just isnt there, anymore

than anywhere else.

[L.Torsalo]

19. Dutch men

are also happy, just more tired at the end of the day...lol;)

[CTyankee]

23. I'm not sure the guys in Holland have it all that bad either, compared to here.

I don't know for sure but with guaranteed education benefits, health care benefits and child care benefits families don't have huge tuition loans, health care insurance costs and day care expenses...that tallies up to a lot less financial pressure on families than here. A strong unemployment benefit also serves them well. They are not pressured into jobs that annihilate their lives or live in fear that if they quit that job they'll be without medical care...there's a lot to be said for living and working in that kind of environment...

[seabeyond]

46. 57% tax taken out of their check leaves them cah poor too. that would be that otherside

that is not mentioned when talking about all the other benefits they receive.

though i am not opposed to a higher tax for a govt run healthcare in the u.s. i never hear mention the taxes other countries pay.

57% was for one of the countries in europe, i am not remembering specifically whuch country. just the first time i had heard the amount they pay in taxes, so using that number.

[CTyankee]

50. IF your percentage is true, then why don't they throw out the government they have

and get one more like the U.S.? They have a democratic country, they could do that. They don't. Why?

[seabeyond]

54. there are rumblins going on thru out european countries about lack of cash one has

i am sure a lot of people are content with what they have, but there are issues in those countries. doesnt hurt to see all of, instead of just pieces.

[SoCalDem]

63. It was Denmark

From a 60-Minutes Report..

Although they are taxed highly, they get a LOT for it..

The young men interviewed said they had plenty left over because it was truly "theirs"..

By not having debt from school or having to worry about health care or helping out elderly relatives, and by having a safety net in case they lost a job , they were perfectly happy with paying higher taxes.

It's all relative... you can spend $80K on a Mercedes & be happy with it, but if you spent $80K for a Mercedes with a Yugo engine, you would be pretty upset:)

[sally cat]

11. Not sure this anecdote will pass peer review with clinical psychiatrists.

[SoCalDem]

13. Slate seemed to think so, and there have been many other reports

& documentaries that stress how lifestyles in the Netherlands seem to promote better mental health than WE seem to have..

CHOICE is what make life palatable.

They have it...we don't.


Most women do not just pop out a baby and get a sudden urge to deposit that child with strangers so they can file papers & waste hours on the phone each day.

American women are often shamed/forced into working, when all they really want to do is raise that baby they tried so hard to have..

If those women had guaranteed year-long paid maternity leave & nationalized health care for their family, would they be eager to return to work?

European countries also provide old-age pensions that are NOT tied to x-amount of quarters of work paid into a system (like we do)

[BrklynLiberal]

20. Sounds correct to me....

[bettyellen]

33. not if you can't or don't want to have babies and your worklife is

crippled by theantiquated notion that that is what you should be doing with your life. It's terribly sexist.
I am in favor of more options and a safety net so that mean and women who want to take another track can do so. But that doesn;t trump equal pay and opportunity in the workplace, not by a longshot.

[Chan790]

70. And so is the inverse.

So is your presumption that they cannot be perfectly happy NOT having the opportunity to be in a position similar to that of American women, functionally compelled to F/T work. For some people, contentment trumps opportunity. I'd freely trade some of my job mobility and earning potential for the means to work P/T for lower pay and get by.

[bettyellen]

78. no, that would be you presumption, i am in favor of equal pay and opportunity and choice for

both sexes. That means men would have the opportunity too of taking these part time jobs or none and having women work harder if they wanted to.
But that;s not Dutch culture at all. Women are steered into volunteer and low paying jobs as healthcare and education workers, men are expected to put in their hours and support the family. Just becuase they have prostition and marjuana doesn;t mean it;s culturally stifling to both men and women in many respects. It's just that all those things being equal, the percentage of women who do (see, I said only some women) want a career are severley disadvantaged. The reason the Dutch both men and women are happy to work some of the lowest hours on earth is because they all can live better on less, they are happier because they overall have a better standard of living. . But that is no reason / excuse to shut women out of the market or exploit them for cheap labor.

[Lucian]

12. I wish males wouldn't have to work so hard either.

I don't want to spend 40 - 50 hours working at some crappy job for the rest of my life either. Life's too short for anyone to be working a shit job. Might as well enjoy life, eh? That's why I've always liked Europe. So many nations get so many days off a year versus the United States. After a year at my job, I qualify for four days of vacation (whoopee.:eyes:). In some European nations, it's mandatory to offer six weeks of vacation at jobs/year.

[Hannah Bell]

15. with productivity as it is, everyone could work part-time and maintain

a decent style of life -- were it not for capitalists skimming off the lions' share of the monetized value of production.

that it's completely possible for everyone in the world to live a decent life, yet hundreds of millions still live in poverty, misery, insecurity -- makes me really depressed and angry.

[Lucian]

16. Same here.

[SoCalDem]

17. Me too.. especially at this time of year when abundance

seems to be the overriding "message"...

more turkey
more presents
more clothes
more toys
more more more

[bettyellen]

60. very true!

[Greyhound]

21. A natural result of basic necessities being met regardless of monetary value. n/t

:kick: & R

[CTyankee]

24. And do you include control over one's destiny and a fuller realization of one's potential

in your category of "life's necessities"? Because that's what it looks like to me...

[Greyhound]

81. ?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Holland prevents controlling one's destiny?

[sufrommich]

26. What utter bullshit. Some women are ambitious and choose

careers that reflect that, some women don't. Just as men are multi dimensional, so are women. Where is this study that shows that women were happier without financial independence?

[CTyankee]

27. Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "financial independence"?

And also what is the American definition of "ambition" and what is the Dutch definition? And, while we are at it, what is the definition of "multi dimensional" in Holland vs. here in the U.S.?

Our experience here in the U.S. of A. isn't normative for Holland, is it?

[bettyellen]

34. I don;t think you need to parse words here, equal pay and opportunity

do not exist for Dutch women. Dragging the saftety net, which exists for men too, is a red herring.
Some women do not want a baby track lifestyle, some do. Many women actually love their careers and should be equally supported by public policy and law.

[CTyankee]

38. As an American I believe that, but we must be able to see a Dutch woman

who is progressive in so many other fronts as not being our ENEMY because she sees social and gender equality as different from ours.

She may see gender equity as embodied in the social safety net system that they have. We have NO IDEA of such a thing, so how do we have even an opinion about it?

I would be interested to hear from the Dutch women who are lawyers (to use your prime example)and other professionals as to what they feel about it.

I also think it is interesting that such a progressive government of Holland's has not thrown out their socialistic policies in favor a U.S. style capitalism...Hmmm?

[bettyellen]

47. enemy? women lawyers? i have no idea where you got any of that

being supported by laws that would give them equal opportunity, pay and a diverse workplace is what I am talking about. only 25% of women there can support themselves, so you'd really have to be happy with a dependant lifestyle to be happy there, i know many women who would completely reject this. it;s a terriffic set up for moms, and people who dislike having a job, but that;s about it.

[bettyellen]

48. .

[Chan790]

71. And it seems they don't want it.

Your resistances in this thread remind me of the "enlightenment" the Europeans brought from his toxic culture to my Pequot ancestors. You're projecting your values onto people who many not share them and might even actively-reject them and their base assumptions as anathema to their culture.

[bettyellen]

72. equal pay and opportunity are toxic values now? that is fucking hilarious.

and it;s sad you think there's something uniquely american, or that these are solely my values. They are democratic values, liberal and progressive ones, in case you didn;t know.

[seabeyond]

40. just a note. because a person is stay at home, does not make them financially dependent

i have made sure over the last 16 yrs thru diferent means that i am not financially dependent and at anytime, i will be financially secure if i am no longer married.

one is not a fator of another

[bettyellen]

49. 75% of Hollands women cannnot support themselves, so it is relevant here

i think it;s great moms have more options there, but is does seem to come at the expense of other women, the ones that do love working and want real careers.

[seabeyond]

56. agree. nt

[bettyellen]

59. i totally understand how Moms want to see this as a perfect idea

but it screws over other segemets of the population pretty badly, and I'm including the men here who are expected to work full time to support 75% of the women. According to the article, it says women are protected from working the extra hours, it looks like men there are forced into traditional genders roles too. I do know lots of couples whod be very unhappy with that arrangement.

[Hannah Bell]

61. no, that's your interpretation of what this statistic means, but i don't think that's a correct

interpretation -- that 75% of dutch women are being partially supported by someone else. i don't think it's the case.

[bettyellen]

73. if the can only partially support themselves, then they are depending on others

and therefore not self suffient. If not, perhaps living in poverty? You neglected to say, so please how else would you interpet that?
It's not suprising at all to think when only 10% have full time jobs. I think it;s great 15% can swing working only part time and that's suffient.

[Meldread]

28. I feel sorry for the men.

If the article is to be believed, all the men work while women go chill out with their girlfriends. I wonder how the women would view it if their husband / boyfriend decided that he didn't want to work, and expected her to support him. I'm pretty sure he'd quickly find himself alone.

Makes me glad I'm gay. I don't think I could tolerate that. There is so much sexism involved in the logic that it's just silly. The man should support his wife / girlfriend. I'd assume that the woman is expected to raise the children and tend the house work. Yes. Welcome back to 1940. It's not like men and women can't, you know, view each other as equals and act like adults - dividing up chores around the home, and planning ahead for childcare - while both equally pitch in to bring money into the household.

I'm pretty sure it'd be a different story if you took away the robust welfare system they have - one of the main reasons women work in the United States is to be independent. Being financially dependent upon a man could mean you're stuck in a bad relationship. Even in a good relationship though, having two incomes is better than one, ensuring that there is at least some minimum amount of security should one individual lose their job. Neither is likely a major problem for women in the Netherlands, thus they're choosing not to work.

[seabeyond]

35. i dont care what other women do. staying at home, raising the kids work for us.

i never thought i would stay home. the lack of respect for "housewife" when i grew up disgusted me. no way was i going to live that. i had the first child and there was no way the baby was going into day care.

it is a choice both hubby and i made. and both huby and i are comfortable with, and happy with the decision. 16 yrs later, we reflect, touch back on the decision, and still glad we made the choice.

i really wish, more people that would like to have one stay at home parent was able to do it. eliminates so much stress we have in life, which leads to more contentent for all involved.

[SoCalDem]

64. Same here.. and my grown up "babies" thank me for doing it

They were probably the last group of "free-range" kids..

they were allowed to sleep until they woke up, eat when they were hungry, play outside all they wanted to...in their own neighborhood..

and I got to see their milestones..not hear about it 2nd hand.

We never had much money, but we had all we needed.

I stayed home until the baby was in 1st grade & then worked part time...and when he was in high school playing sports, I quit again, so I could go to his games..that was very selfish, but I did it anyway:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

65. i am hearing more men

are comfortable staying home too. i am really liking the trend going in this direction. as much as we like to create men vs women, both genders different idea, i find that there are men that are the natural nurturers while there are women, not so much. would do better in the work force. to be in a society, where the men do not have to deny their abilities and woman have to try to be something they arent, ... is a blessing. and healthy all around.

[bettyellen]

74. I think it;s a real mix too, which is why I think the Dutch stats are

a bit frightening. I like my job, and I think I;d feel like an outcast there, or a sucker for being so underpaid.

[KoKo]

37. K&R...Interesting!

[The Straight Story]

62. If they are happy it is not my place to tell them they would be happier living my way

To each their own.

Don't let someone else tell you 'happiness' is.

[bettyellen]

76. this article is some dipshit projecting from her own experience

the supporting stat she uses is women generally don;t want to work more hours- at much lower paying jobs than men have. Not as simple as you'd like to think.

[sally cat]

108. LOL! That is exactly right. Thanks.

[DutchLiberal]

66. This is not good news at all. Dutch women are not economically independent...

They often don't work enough to be able to support themselves and/or their children, if they didn't have a husband/boyfriend. Often after a divorce, you'll see these women slip into poverty.

The headline is a laughing matter. Half of the Dutch are on Prozac and that includes women too. Don't mistake Holland for the liberal, left-wing paradise it was 30 years ago. It's very much an American society, now, and one that treats women who are not economically independent harshly...

[seabeyond]

69. hey... dont give it to america. women at least, got foot wedge in the work force....

i agree it is not all bliss in europe and have a tough time when people make it an unrealistic utopia. nor am i into making u.s. all hell. the world is hurting today. not seeing perfection anywhere.

[Marr]

75. Suppose this is at all related to that equal pay legislation being defeated?

Slate is always about spin.

[bettyellen]

77. the article reads like Eat Pray Love. Facile and self centered bullshit.

[NobleCynic]

80. Yeah... the old correlation vs causation issue

Just because they have more inequality in the workforce does not necessarily mean that is the reason for their happiness. I see a very weak argument for causation. Try a better social safety net, public health care, truly public education, etc. Author fails at statistics.

[chillspike]

82. What the article shows me is that

you can be feminist and not be a corporate zombie or slave if you don't want to be. It just shows that the competitive capitalist/corporate systems can be just plain unpleasant whether for men or women. The Dutch men would probably be as equally as happy as the Dutch women were they able to extricate themselves from their dehumanizing jobs.

[mistertrickster]

83. The clear difference: a strong middle class protected by gov't benefits like health care.

Women in the United States work because they HAVE to, the same as men.

To live like the 60's American dream today, you have to have two income earners, because the incomes are so much smaller than they used to be.

ON EDIT--While American feminists were fixated on power relationships between men and women, they ignored the power relationship that really mattered: between rich and not rich.

Now American women can be serfs for the "free market" just like the men can. Congratulations.

Meanwhile the "women's studies" departments at major universities churn out papers on girl's math scores and the male gaze in film and ignore the economic chains that bind everyone.

What we really need is a "poor studies" department. They're the ones everybody ignores.

[bettyellen]

87. feminists never fixated on power or ignored the class struggle- men fixated on

these issues and held up these ivory tower cultural commentators to ridicule feminism without knowing the nuts and bolts of the movement. women worldwide have always been out there in equal numbers fighting for social and economic justice, the are largely the same women who work on feminist issues, and they are doing it for the same reasons. you'd know that if you worked with or followed any of these groups. men (and RWers) chose to see and report on what they could find only to use to ridicule them with. instead of listening to the full message, they edit and regurgitate the more radical messages to discredit feminists because of their own self centered knee jerk fears.
Congrats, you are doing the same thing- and blaming good women who are trying to do the right thing to boot. Think about it.
But the part about the high standard of living, bingo- that;s what it is all about. Both Dutch men and women do work less hours and love it.

[truedelphi]

90. Thank you for your observations.

As a feminist who was thrown out of a major feminist group in the mid seventies for the crime of getting pregnant, I agree.

There were/(are) indeed Femi Nazis, and they have a certain agenda. You had to be a lesbian, you had to be disinterested if not be an out and out a man hater, and like you say, the studies produced by that group of people ended up not being that worthwhile in the overall struggle of the Poor and Middle Incomed against the rich. Which is where the action really is.

[mistertrickster]

110. And I thank you for telling it like it really was. There's been a lot

of rewriting of history these days about the women's movement in the 70's.

You and I were there. We lived it. We remember.

What started as a good and basic desire for equality turned into a rigid ideology and finally hardened into orthodoxy.

Once that happened, the movement for all practical purposes ceased to be relevant and is now safely tucked away behind the closed and LOCKED doors of academia, right where its enemies want it . . .

[DutchLiberal]

94. It's good for women to work. You treat it like it;s a punishment...

Working makes them financially independent of a man. It contributes to their emancipation, development and their self-esteem. It's good for *everybody* to contribute to society.

[bettyellen]

97. hey DL, I had read a lot of trad "women;s work" jobs are expected to be filled by volunteers-

I found it interesting that the same jobs that are highly important yet low paid in the USA (in health and education) are low paid because they are largely looked at as women;s work- and over there, they get people to volunteer? is that right? that seems like just another way to devalue these crucial sevice providers. Yikes.
Thanks for your posts on this thread. That article was ridiculous.

[DutchLiberal]

105. I don't know that "women's jobs" are filled by volunteers in Holland...

What I do know, is that *some* jobs in health care are filled by "interns". They are mainly college students and, since the last few years, also high school students. A few years ago, a so-called "social internship" was established for high school students, to teach them the value of public service. Some of them are in health care, but they can't be high profile jobs, because high school students obviously can't bear that much responsibility.

So no, I don't know about "women's jobs" being filled by volunteers, sorry. The Netherlands also has a gap in payment between men and women, and... I just can't understand how anybody can justify that. Women get paid less than men for *the exact same job*. It's sexist, and our laws officially forbid it, yet somehow it can still go on? I was sad to read the US Congress rejected proposed legislation to close that gap.

Yeah, the article was bullshit. It was purely anecdotal. But I was surprised to learn that so many people on DU think it's okay for women to be dependant on their husbands.

[bettyellen]

109. that story said more about the writer than it did about the Dutch for sure

and I too found it very disconcerting that so many glosed over the big pay gap aa well as the possible consequences of being encouraged to be dependent like that your whole life.
I thought I'd see bit more skepticism here, or at least a close reading of the OP.
Thanks for your feedback here, Dutch!

[mistertrickster]

111. I disagree. It's good to work at a good paying job that one enjoys and that helps society.

That's not the reality for most women OR men today.

Until you fight class war (idelogical war, not shooting war), you've solved nothing.

[DutchLiberal]

114. In the end, *all* jobs help society and thus are meaningful...

Imagine no more garbage-men, no more waitresses, no more taxi drivers, no more plumbers... Yeah, maybe they're not desired jobs and nobody *likes* to work at them, but they are needed... very much! And that's why they 'help' society.

Also, ask yourself what's better for a woman: sitting at home doing nothing, not making any social contacts, never having the experience of making one's own money... or having a job. I agree that the payment gap between men and women should be closed *yesterday*! But it's not an excuse to be dependent on your husband all your life.

[seabeyond]

113. you are not contributing to society raising your children, creating home environment of safety and

security and little stress?

[DutchLiberal]

115. Oh, great! Another round of putting words in someone else's mouth...

I said it's not good for women *themselves*. That was my MAIN point. Don't pick and choose, please.

[seabeyond]

116. i re read and got the same thing. but raising kids, staying at home has been very good for me

i also worked for two decades before marrying so i had that life and those benefits too.

i just think there is a bigger picture that you may be missing too.

though i agree with the general gist of what you are saying thru out thread.

[DutchLiberal]

117. But staying at home makes you economically dependant, which isn't good for anybody. (n/t)

[siligut]

84. This article implys that we respect men.

:shrug:

[spin]

85. My Irish dad told me to marry a Dutch girl ...

I should have followed his advice.

[ShadowLiberal]

88. Different societies with different 'dreams' aspired by citizens

I think one of the big differences here is what people are raised to want, as the ultimate goal. By this I'm referring to the American Dream, and the European Dream.

The American Dream is to work hard and make lots of money and be successful.

The European Dream is to have lots of leisure time to enjoy yourself (you still need to have a job to support yourself and buy things to do in your leisure time, but there's less focus on working hard to get rich, because that tends to take away from how much leisure time you have).

With more safety nets in Europe, and starting from the position of being expected to stay home and care for the kids, it's probably easier for a woman to enjoy having lots of leisure time while still having a job. After all if you're a sexist trying to fight the raise of women in the workplace, wouldn't you fight women more who want to work full time jobs rather than women working part time jobs?

So overall my guess is culture, safety nets, upbringing, and being able to support themselves on a part time job probably explain this difference.

[CTyankee]

96. Yes, it is true that sexists want any argument they can find to attack gender equality in wages here

I would say that. Andthatis their end game, isn't it? Turn one class against another and have them fight over the dribs and drabs left them by the ruling classes?

That is, unless we REVOLT and say we won't take it anymore! Let's get our own tea party movement going and show our strength!

[Nikia]

89. We would all be happier working 20-30 hours per week

I recall a book that said that people who worked these number of hours were happier and more civically involved than people working less or more.
I know that after my 45-50 hour work week, I am exhausted. Even if I could work less hours finicially, there are very few oppurtunities for part time jobs with decent hourly rates or benefits. There aren't many jobs that are less than full time that offer benefits or pay more than $10/hour.

[Quantess]

99. Dutch people seem to be pretty cool and laid back, in general.

It seems that they have a live and let live, non-judgmental culture. People seem to mind their own business.

I'm definitely no expert, but I visited about a week in 1997. I was living in San Francisco at the time, and I felt "at home" and relaxed there. I was sort of reminded of breezy Californians, except without the attitude and the sass.

[Lance_Boyle]

104. Sort of, but not really.

The Dutch don't care what the tourists in the hotels are doing, but they *damned sure* know every detail of what happens in every neighbor's house. It is seriously a country of Gladys Kravitzes.

[DutchLiberal]

107. A lot has changed in those 13 years...

People are extremely judgmental nowadays, especially when it comes to minorities (muslims, immigrants etc.) This has been encouraged by various politicians the last 7 or 8 years. But really, the Dutch were always judgmental, only they were used to keep it inside --when it came to those groups, because it was considered 'politically incorrect'. But they have always judged about everything and everybody as far as I can remember. In fact, our loud, direct in-your-face attitude and opinionated attitude has long been considered a national trait.

Maybe you just met the wrong (= right) Dutchmen? ;)

[truedelphi]

103. Wonder how much depression in the USA is due to relatives (or themselves) being

In jail for drugs. Whereas Dutch women don't have that worry.

People have no idea of how many women end up in jail as couriers. And there is a case where a young woman, gifted with a lovely condo by her granny, ended up in jail. This resulted from her refusing several months earlier, to date this gnarly gansta. He got popped for coke, but the local police needed him as a snitch, so he ratted her out as part of a plea bargain.

He accused her of being one of his suppliers, with the local cops putting stash in her house to facilitate her bust, and keeping him free.

Her only crime had been to REFUSE to have anything to do with a gangsta, and now she is the one in jail.

[WinkyDink]

106. The Netherlands is in Europe. End of story!