Re: Forgiveness

[H2O Man]

One of the topics that fascinates me – both in real and internet life – is the concept of forgiveness. In recent days, for example, I've read a couple threads on this forum having to do with Michael Vick, the extremely talented athlete who participated in gross cruelty to dogs. Some question if, as he has paid his dues as defined by a court of law, he should be forgiven in the court of public opinion. My opinion of that specific example, of course, is of no real value in the point that I would like to make.

Perhaps the single most important section of any book that I have read on the topic of forgiveness is found on pages 12-13 of Thomas Merton's 1964 “Gandhi on Non-Violence.” There are a couple of reasons for this: first, Gandhi, while an imperfect human being, remains one of the very few people who I am, at this advanced age, still in awe of; and second, because Merton is one a group of thinkers, including others (such as Erich Fromm, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Carl Sagan), who I delight in reading, over and over.

Merton begins his discussion on forgiveness by focusing on those who judge others in a manner that precludes forgiveness. He uses the extreme example of Adolph Hitler to illustrate the mental framework of those who view certain “sins” as unforgivable. There is an inevitability to this type of thought process, which leads to a finality of viewing the unforgiven as something less valuable than human.

Merton uses Thomas Aquinas as an example to illustrate a very different view of “sin.” Aquinas viewed “sin” as a stumbling block to human development's higher potentials. He recognized that those who ask for mercy with the proper motivation not only deserve, but require forgiveness, in order to travel forward on their path up the mountain of humanity. In this point of view, evil is indeed reversible; more, it can allow for the growth of the community as a whole.

I suspect that there may be some hidden lesson in all of this, that may be beneficially applied to us as individuals, and perhaps even as an internet community. Or, of course, it could simply be my seeing myself in a sometimes bad light, recognizing that I have gotten a bit carried away in some petty arguments on this forum. I'll end with a quote for Aquinas that Merton uses in the book:

“They are provoked to anger and aggression, which are vile passions. These make a man think that he is in danger of suffering some future evil, which he intends to resist. When men are so disposed, they do not have mercy on others. Likewise the proud do not have mercy because they despise others and look upon them as evil, taking it for granted that these people deserve to suffer whatever they have to suffer.”

[LWolf]

1. In the framework you offer,

I guess one would have to discern whether or not Vick "asked for mercy with the proper motivation." Did he truly recognize, and regret, the atrocity he engaged in? Or was he following directions to reduce the consequences, regardless of what he really thought?

That, of course, is true for all who face consequences from our justice system, which leads to these questions:

How "just" IS our justice system?

What are the ways that we can evolve that system forward to allow for the growth of our human community as a whole?

[alsame]

2. In the big picture, that quote seems to apply to what

is happening in our country and our society today.

As I read it, it seemed to summarize the attitudes of the radical right wing toward their fellow citizens.

[pacalo]

3. I lost my dog near a bad neighborhood -- missing for 7 days.

During my daily searches, a young boy told me to look in the canal; he said dogs were picked up off the street by gang members, who used the dogs for fighting, then when the dogs were of no more use to them (near death or dead), they tossed them into the canal.

My dog was found, but what that young boy told me stays with me.

There are people who aren't animal lovers like I am & don't fully understand what it would feel like to have one's "baby" treated so inhumanely; they would have no problem in having to watch Michael Vick play football for a huge salary. But he's a turn-off for me, a walking reminder of the week I lost my dog & what could have happened to him.

My dog is like my little toddler. He's taught us how smart dogs can be, that they have feelings just as much as humans do. After adopting another dog from the pound after we got our lost dog back, my dog taught me that he understands fairness. When the adopted dog took away my first dog's treat from him, my first dog looked at me with a look expecting me to do something about it.

It hasn't anything to do with forgiving Vick. The law did that & the NFL has done that. It's my choice to not have to watch him.

[woo me with science]

5. Nice post, and I agree.

I'm also glad your dog was found.

[pacalo]

6. Thanks, woo. I still feel like it was yesterday; it was that traumatic.

[AndrewP]

7. Very well said.

What people do or don't do with Vick isn't my problem. But he won't be on my TV and won't be celebrated in any way by me.

[pacalo]

9. He was forgiven where it counts: he's able to earn a better-than-most's salary. He's not owed a

viewership. It's everyone else's choice to watch or not to watch.

[hlthe2b]

8. Absolutely...

I will never understand--can NEVER understand how anyone could be so ruthless and cruel to an animal. As the days available to me with my beloved doggy girl start to wind down, I treasure every second. It is wrenching to think of her or any other dog being treated in anyway but as a loving member of the family. Dogs have evolved to be our best friends. It is unfathomable for us not to treat them as such.

[pacalo]

11. "A member of the family" is exactly what I'm talking about. A little child

who leaves the living room floor looking like a daycare center's at the end of each day. Mine has little beanie baby toys from when he was a little puppy that he's never destroyed. Perhaps that's another thing he's taught me about dogs -- he has a long memory of his first days with us. He'll destroy rope toys & other of his recent toys, but he uses his beanie baby toys in his keep-away games with us -- very gentle with them.

Mine's getting up there in age, too. I wish they had a longer life span!

[mrs_p]

13. i'm so glad you found your baby

i would be beside myself. the kid's story is indeed haunting...

[Iris]

27. I can't even walk my dog in my neighborhood because of crap like this.

My dog and I were attached 3 times in the first 2 years we lived in the neighborhood. I've stopped walking her, and she only gets to go for walks when I have time to drive to the city park or when my husband has time to go with us. And recently, one of my neighbor's dog was attacked.

[hlthe2b]

4. I too am in awe of Gandhi and appreciate the power of forgiveness.

But, I also very much believe in the sentiment of my sigline. Some things are truly best not forgiven if there is any chance of our forgetting the lessons to be learned. For me, Hitler ranks in that box. Those who are unrepentant after unspeakable cruelty to the powerless, be they humans or animals likewise fall in that box, for me. I don't know if Vick is truly repentant. I have my doubts.

[strawberryfield]

10. Holding on to negative emotions is a complete waste

I have a basic rule. If it has already happened and I can't do anything about it, then it ain't worth wasting energy. This frees me to tackle the goals I have in my life.

[mrs_p]

12. Very thoughtful post and a concept I think about often

I, myself, find it easy to forgive those that ask for it. But those that don't ask for forgiveness for the harm they have done or don't think they have done any harm at all, I find myself provoked to the "vile passions." In particular, I have not been able to forgive my abusive father - but he doesn't think he has ever done any harm. In the end, I'm the only one who really suffers as he goes along his merry way.

Thanks for bringing up this topic. It is something I need to meditate on a bit more, obviously.

[Gregorian]

14. Forgiveness is an extremely important topic.

And there are many chapters. I wish we addressed the subject more often, and on a level of greater seriousness than I usually see.

We are born innocent, I believe. And we learn from there to be who we have become. It is on this basis, among others, that I believe forgiveness is not just important, but crucial for all of us to continue progressive change.

Forgiveness is not just one sided. And it may even be that it is more for those doing the forgiving than those being forgiven.

The bottom line is no one actually wants to do the things they do when they are not done out of love. But that gets lost in the noise.

If there is anyone who has never done anything they regret, perhaps they can condemn the rest of us.

[JonLP24]

15. I avoided those threads

They tend to get ugly. I can always count on you to take a fair-minded approach. It really doesn't matter if he is forgiven, what counts is he doesn't do it again. In fact a lot of people are saying it doesn't matter what he does, he won't be forgiven. Working with the Humane Society, trying to discourage young people away from it, and encourage pit bull adoption. His teammates like him including Kevin Kolb. And he has acknowledged being with family including his wife & daughter, rather than the crowd he grew up with.

I don't care how people feel about him one way or another, my view is I'm not saying "It doesn't matter" as to what he does to repair his image. Of course if he messes up again than obviously I'll remain upset.

[H2O Man]

16. Thanks.

(Note: HBO replays Pacquiao vs Margarito at 10 pm/est, then feautues Williams vs Martinez.)

I was trying to discuss more than the Vick business. Some of the dynamics on DU are similar to the Vick examples.

A kid from my home town recently tried out for a spot in professional football. He was outstanding in high school and college -- which reminds me that he's not really a "kid" .... I still think of his father as a kid, though. My age is showing. Anyhow, a nice kid, who had to deal with not making the team. He had the opportunity to hang out and become good friend with Michael Vick. And when I listen to him, I hear a person described in a completely different way, than on Nancy Grace, ESPN, or in internet discussion forums. This young man describes an intelligent, truly decent man who rewcognizes that he did some terrible things, who takes responsibility, and who is focused on making a meaningful contribution to the larger community. And, yeah, I definitely trust this kid's opinion of Vick, based upon his first-hand experience with him.

I also fully appreciate others' love of dogs and other animals. Just as my dogs look out for me, I do for them. Many years ago, I lived on my then in-laws farm. I was at the dead end of a seasonal dirt road. There were over a thousand acres of our private property, then tens of thousands of acres of state land. You had to drive a long ways to see other people.

One day, the local dog warden stopped at my house. He started giving me shit about my two dogs being loose. I explained that we had a gas pump in the barn, and that people not only stole gas, but left the barn door open, freezing pipes, etc. My dogs were loose for a reason. They didn't leave the area around the house. The guy got nasty, and told me that he was going to shoot my dogs if he saw them loose again. I lessened the physical distance between us, looked him straight in the eye, and said that if he did, I would shoot him. He got excited, and said that I'd go to jail if I did. I said maybe, if anyone found where I buried him, but that damn sure he would be dead and in the ground.

I love my doggies more than I love most people.

[H2O Man]

17. dog

[Beringia]

18. I also like Merton

As for forgiveness, the saying, to err is human, to forgive is divine is a very deep saying and true I believe. We all err, but when we learn to forgive, that comes from a higher place. I find that real forgiveness takes a lot of maturity and experience, to sort of understand the other person and their faults. I don't forgive Vick, because I doubt he has truly changed. To use dogs for fighting and killing takes a lot of premeditation and knowledge of ones actions and he didn't care. I know I have a lot to learn about forgiveness.

[OneGrassRoot]

21. I'm with you....

There's so much wisdom in this thread. Thanks, H20 Man. :hug:

I agree with those who've said they don't feel it's their place to forgive Vick or not. I haven't paid close enough attention to his mea culpa statements and actions since his arrest to form an opinion as to how genuine his apologies are; it would merely be another opinion anyway.

I do have a really hard time imagining how someone can truly change once having committed such heinous acts. In my experience, we may change little things about our personalities, but once we're adults, we're essentially the same people. If you had it within you to torture innocents, of your own accord (no one was forcing him), can you really change?

I don't know the answer. But I'm also fascinated with the concepts of forgiveness and mercy, and recognize I have a lot to learn as well.

I do know that holding on to anger does nothing but harm ourselves. Still, I think I tend to detach, rather than truly forgive. I most certainly don't forget.

K&R

[hfojvt]

19. "Jesus would forgive, but a daddy don't forget"

Of course, I am reminded of a few songs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwPexocJK3Y

I think that I would have an easier time forgiving Vick if he was working as a roofer somewhere or as a fry cook scrubbing a greasy grill every week instead of making millions in front of cheering fans. But Vick will probably always be like OJ - a star with an asterisk. About ten years ago, I ordered a coloring book from Dover called "great african american atheletes". By his athletic accomplishments, OJ deserved to be in that book, but of course he wasn't.

I wonder if my uncle has forgiven Brett Favre. In his eyes, Brett's great sin was "going to play for the Vikings". Before last season, my uncle said "I hope he breaks his arm in training camp." Perhaps today's huge loss made everything okay.

[noamnety]

20. Would your post read differently if he had raped a woman?

Part of me thinks we would still have posts here saying he should be forgiven, he's made peace with what he did.

Myself, I don't think it's my place to "forgive" or not forgive. I'm not in the business of granting divine grace to anyone. I understand that he revealed an aspect of his personality that is sadistic and cruel and I suspect he would still be acting on that if he hadn't been caught.

[BoneDaddy]

22. Forgiveness isn't about granting divine grace

it is more about you letting go of the judgement, pain and perhaps hate that you have for someone. That said I find some things to be unforgivable.

[noamnety]

24. Well, I wouldn't say I hate him, he's just not part of my life.

But regarding judgment, yes - we all judge people based on their actions. I can assess the actions of an abuser (whether an abuser of women, prisoners, dogs, children, whatever), and come to some conclusions about what kind of person they are.

Those conclusions don't magically change just because he spent time in prison.

[BoneDaddy]

25. I agree and I think it would behoove us

to wait a decade before we can see some real change.

[bobbolink]

29. Please see my post #28, in this vein.

I am very sorry for what you went through... it is a life-changing event, as is what I went through (having my child kidnapped). It is so easy for people to disregard what happened to you, and tell you to "forgive for your own good."

I believe it is much more involved than that.

Again, I am sorry for what you went through, and hope that you have been able to find at least some healing.

The women coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan are being diagnosed as "mentally ill" in a larger proportion than men... because they have been raped by their peers.

We as a nation MUST finally take more action to protect women!

[Bluenorthwest]

23. I love dogs

I hate sports. Because that culture creates Vicks full time. I figure that all sports lovers kick small animals for fun, and this thread does not change the impression that in sports, Vickey is more important than the animals he hurt for his own twisted pleasure.
Sports culture is abusive and homophobic. The dogs, that is what sports fans long to see, clearly, as they cheer the killer and pay him millions.
Jesus said we know a tree by the fruit it bears. The end.

[JuniperLea]

26. I don't consider the Vick issue a petty argument on this forum...

Torture is a heinous act. It is no less heinous when performed on an animal. I cannot fathom an adult human being changing once they have allowed themselves to stoop to such a subhuman level. There is nothing in life, nothing on Earth that could instill in me the desire to torture another living being. Nothing.

Vick will not be appearing in my living room this football season, and no amount of condescension is going to make me change my mind. No amount of argument is going to make me change my mind. No amount of discussion is going to change my view of this subhuman and vicious act he performed... over, and over, and over, and over untold times again.

I have no set ideas as to how he should lead the rest of his life or how he should be treated by others. It makes no difference to me as long as he doesn't torture any living thing again.

You can think and do as you please, so can everyone else here. We still have that freedom. I am not a lesser person for my views. There's a big difference between forgiveness and wishing all the comforts of a lofty career and the financial riches it brings. I am not required to wish that for him, nor does the act of forgiveness require that of me.

I'd rather not think about him at all, actually, and I never do... until someone starts a thread on DU about him or his name appears in the news. I'm done with this. I'll not be making any further comments on this issue, but will hide all threads, unread. This continued discussion is beginning to feel torturous to me, so I'm opting out completely.

All y'all can have at it.

[H2O Man]

31. I agree that

the issues in the Vick case is not "petty." I used that word to describe some of the other nonsense that I have from time to time, been an active, hostile participant in on DU. I've never been involved in an argument about Vick here.

I consider killing dogs in that way to be murder. Others may disagree with me. This past summer, my wife's nephews visited here. One of them killed a frog at my pond, and I told him not to do that. He asked -- sincerely -- why not, and I explained that they are the Frog People who live in that pond, while we are only visitors there. He looked at me like I was crazy -- I am, of course -- but I view other earth residents as such. And I have greater connections to dog people than frof people.

Regarding the value of forgiveness, in terms of human growth: I agree that we are all entitled to our opinions. My own has been shaped not only be personal experience, but also from reading the works of humanity's enlightened ones. Men like Jesus, Gandhi, and King all placed a lot of emphasis on the power of forgiveness.

I've mentioned previously that my friend Rubin was incarcerated for twenty years for a crime that he did not commit. Almost ten of those years were served in solitary confinement. Several years ago, after he introduced me to an audience at Binghamton University, a professor approached me. She was writing a book on forgiveness, and asked if I could get Rubin to add a chapter on his experience, in which he recognizes that forgiveness was a key to his being free. He did. More, his new book, which will be released in January, involves that very topic.

But as you say, what is of interest to some people here, isn't going to be of interest to others. That's fine.

[bobbolink]

28. Its easy for "forgiveness" to get mixed up with "boundaries". These aren't easy concepts,

and as a society, we don't deal with emotional complexities well.

Women, especially, are pushed to "forgive", and to neglect healthy boundaries in the process.

This topic deserves much more in-depth attention!

[dave29]

30. Forgiveness is a very important subject

When I approached my family and informed them of my issues with drugs, I took a step towards health and forgiveness. Each has responded in their own way, not all able to forgive, but I do not regret asking for it. Many years sober now, I still feel although I never (thankfully) had legal issues surrounding this problem, I have multiple barriers to "normal life" including insurance issues -- no longer have to worry about pre-existing conditions (which lead to my mental health issues) thanks to the health bill -- and residual issues with friends and family who will rightfully have trust issues with me for perhaps the rest of my days.

I have paid for all "my sins" literally and figuratively in this regard, but stigma often outweighs the repentant.

I feel this is probably true in this forum as well. I fear the bitterness outweighs the hope. And while we argue who is to blame for that, I fear forgiveness is something swept under the table, especially now.

As an example, I wrote the admins of this board privately asking for two members, one from each "faction" on this board to be re-instated. My comment was were they neighbors, they would be the best of friends, but being internet warriors, they could not see each other that way. I plead, in the spirit of forgiveness for their return. Understanding the barriers we face around here at this time, I was not surprised that I received no response.

-Dave