The claim is Israel (El Al) does RACIAL profiling. Is that really true?

[sally cat]

Middle Eastern natives have similar appearance. El Al screeners can't LOOK at a person and tell their nationality, and they're mostly the same race. Some have suggested they actually do behavioral screening not racial. Since it works for them, should we try it (have them train TSA) or continue assuming every person here is a potential terrorist?

As I understand it, their equivalent of our STOP officers actually interact with passengers, like the TSA folks who check our boarding passes and ID's upon entering security. But our STOP personnel only observe that interaction from a distance, they don't interact with the passenger. Yet they are the ones trained to spot the bad guys.

Some say it's more expensive but I can't see how that can be. Even so, an effective system that works is worth the money.

Dogs should be used to sniff passengers and bags going through the security line as well.

But basically this suggestion involves questioning whether their effective methods really involve racial profiling, or rather behavioral profiling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. They will give you a harder look if you happen

To have certain last names or visas from the usual suspects...

Somehow people have trouble with that...

They'd have trouble if they got a harder look if they had a hot flash...too.

Most folks skate through in less than a minute...that is the extent of the actual interaction.

[hlthe2b]

3. I have had experience in Paris during a bomb evacuation

(which are not uncommon, btw). We were sent from the interior of the ariport outside for a total of one hour afterwhich all resumed. I, however, was the one who was "profiled," having been a blonde woman traveling alone from and arriving in Paris from extended stay in an Arab country. Loaded down with rolled up rugs and all other paraphernalia as well. So, what was my excruciating secondary screening? Trained agents talked with me for a total of 7 minutes at the screening gate. Polite, but firm questioning about where I had been, what I had been doing, who I had stayed with, who had had access to my bags and then, satisfied, was put through the regular baggage and metal detector screening of everyone else.

It works.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. They gave me the tenth degree in Mexico at check in

Hot flash at the worst of times...

So I oppened my bag, they went through it, chuckled over the clippers, swabbed it for explosives...closed up off you go... Yes it works...

On edit that was checked baggage they gave extra looksie

[gateley]

15. Yes - the trained agents. That's how the Customs officer at the

Blaine border knew something was fishy when Ahmed Ressam was trying to bring bomb making materials into the U.S. She'd been trained.

And that's why you, with your suspicious rugs and paraphernalia had only to speak to them for a short time. It probably would have been suspicious if you WEREN'T carting back beautiful rugs from the Middle East! :rofl:.

It just seems like such a smarter and less disruptive approach to security.

[MadMaddie]

19. Thanks for sharing the reality!

Israels airport security employs the same type of security.

It is amazing to me that anyone even dares brings up cost when it comes to security.

[hlthe2b]

2. What is worse is that these TSA procedures act to coopt behavior

and prevent anyone from distinguishing who is "nervous" versus who is (understandably) outraged, embarrassed, apprehensive about the screening procedures. In fact, we have taken away the ability to use behavior as a useful marker. Rather everyone would be judged to be suspicious, based only on their reactions to interventions that TSA has put in place.

[woo me with science]

12. Good point. nt

[sally cat]

24. That is an excellent point. Unintended consequences negating the whole premise.

[leveymg]

4. They do exactly the same thing that TSA does - profile passengers as they buy tickets.

You can't buy an airline ticket for someone without a credit card, the passenger's name and their SS number.

The TSA does a computerized background check on the credit card holder and the passenger before the day of the flight. That's the primary check. Anyone who buys a ticket at the counter the day of the flight gets looked at very closely.

Regardless, when a passenger enters security, the TSA guy looks you over when you present your ID and boarding pass, informally profiles you, and other officers also do an assessment as you remove you shoes, belt, unpack your laptop, etc.

If anything seems amiss, they take you aside and do a secondary inspection, during which the ask questions and assess the response and behavior. They also do it randomly.

There's little difference between what we and the Israels do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Wrong, this is why the Israelis have refused the machines

You have no idea what the world of difference is.

[leveymg]

17. Please explain, then, Nadin. What is the difference?

I mean that respectfully.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. For starters they have at least three more layers of security.

There is more contact, usually lastibg a minute to 90 seconds before you even check in into your flight.

And that does not include the outer perimeter before you reach the actual airport.

They also have multiple non-obvious to you, layers of security.

Abroad they cannot go all the way, why a shmuck managed to reach the counter at El Al in LAX...

[leveymg]

27. Sounds to me that you're describing is facilities security, which is less of a concern here.

Aside from that, and the pre-check in "interview" (which I most Americans would not like to see adopted here, as it really is intrusive), what's different about the background checking and profiling? What's the third (invisible) layer?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. So being asked if you packed your bags is a problem?

Used to be standard..

Here is some dot connecting. Never mind they have top notch security we have dropped them to level II...as well as Mexico...what do they have in common? No machines....I expect Italy to join them...oh and facility security is part of it. But carry on...

[leveymg]

44. Isn't that question part of the pre-check-in "screening"? Not exactly invisible . . .

what's the third "invisible" part of El-Al screening that you referenced, that supposedly we don't have? I really am curious to know about what it is that the Israelis do better. I don't doubt that historically that has been true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. You'd better do some research yourself

Tired of explaining it

[sally cat]

30. An interview vs groping? You really think Americans would prefer the latter? We're not so frail as

you might think.

[leveymg]

45. An interview or a low-dose X-ray, or a grope . . . most people will take the scan,

thank you. Did it two weeks ago, and thought I'd passed through the usual magnetometer. I didn't notice the difference until the TSA lady told me to raise my arms. Didn't think much about it until after this whole thing blew up the tea pot.

If I were a pilot or flight crew who was scanned every day, I might worry about it. Otherwise, if someone sees that I have penis and gonads, have a nice day.

[bettyellen]

5. yes it's racial, they speak with the people and check names, can ascertain through their accent if

not from their name, neighborhood or city they live in - if it has to be taken that far- what people they will group them with.
when i was in Belfast almost all the locals got this out of the way pretty quickly to find out which side of the Catholic/ Protestant divide I, an American, fell on.
I gamed the system by pretending to be from Ontario with a boyfriend name William. that was all it took, and the results were interesting.

[sally cat]

11. Through their accent? If you believe that I see why you would think it's racial.

[riderinthestorm]

22. So are you trying to draw some kind of delineation of wrongness whether it's ethnic, racial

or some other kind of profiling?

Is there a spectrum of badness that makes one less wrong than another?

I'm an Irish citizen by the way, and the security profiling is a disaster in that country. It has definitely contributed to the country's problems, divisions and tensions, instead of making anyone feel safer.

Why are you singling out "racial" profiling over say, ethnic profiling?

[bettyellen]

33. no, I'm not seeing much difference between the two ethnic and racial

but I guess ethnic was more correct in this matter. Im just used to hearing racial, being an American. Sorry, just tryong to explain how it works.
I'm not a fan of the security profiling in Ireland either, trust me. The month I spent in Belfast (working on a doc about human rights viloations) opened my eyes to how many good people were tortured because of their "profile" .

[bettyellen]

32. any or all of those things I listed are pieces that help the questioner "place" the person - same

as we do when we meet a person from another place.
Do you think they really listen only to the answers and not the voice? they are trying to make sure the person matches up, ethnically, with their paperwork that they are who they say they are and having a chat is one way of doing it. In circumstances where there is ethnic conflict this is second nature to security.

[gateley]

6. If my country/race was warring with people of another country/race,

I'd give them a closer look, too. Especially if we dealt with frequent bombings around the country.

If I were bitten by a German Shepherd repeatedly, I'd be cautious of any German Shepherds I came across until I determined they were friendly.

We don't know what it's like to live like the Israelis and Palestinians, so I'm not sure we're in a position to critique the measures they take to try to ensure safety for their citizens.

(I don't think that should apply here, though. We have many Americans who have taken Muslim names and/or have become citizens and it's a different story, IMO.)

[stevenleser]

7. Yes, the former head of security for El Al was on TV the other day saying so...

and ridiculing us for not doing so.

[OHdem10]

8. You can either bring every man woman child granny grannpappy

through the check or you using intelligence and data
select the ones who are suspicious. So far farmers
from Iowa are not international terrorists. My point
is Israel using background data and their knowlege\
of who is likely to be a terrorist and the actual
behavior the person exhibits on site makes a decision.

If this is profiling???

[sally cat]

9. Exactly. It's certainly not racial. And we're currently treating that farmer like a criminal without

cause.

[leveymg]

10. Problem with that is that farmers in Iowa can be terrorists - Posse Comitatus and militia types.

But, their usual MO is to gun down judges and county officials they don't like.

Timmy McVeigh was into bombs, and he was Red, WHITE and blue, through-and-through. Profiling him on the basis of his ethnicity and appearance would be useless.

[gateley]

16. ANYONE can be a terrorist, but trained personnel can spot who's

up to no good fairly reliably.

[leveymg]

26. Is "fairly reliably" good enough for a flight that you're about to board?

Not for me, if there's something more reliable. Even if it sees through my underpants.

On a relative scale of things, there's nothing more intrusive than death.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. So here is the problem

You want100%, never mind that is an impossible standard and adults realize freedom is sorta risky.

[leveymg]

46. Not expecting 100%. But, I object to people demanding far less than that because someone might see

whether they wear knickers when they fly.

Freedom was lost in 9/12 when impeachment wasn't started. I don't want to see Obama make the same sort of mistakes, even if for other reasons. I don't care who's President - if a scan is more reliable than profiling, alone, I'll take my rads, gladly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Alas it is not

Even the GAO is saying that...enjoy the sexual battery, and remember to ask for dinner a red rose and champagne.

[gateley]

47. I'm the one who graded it as "fairly reliably" - I'd like to see the stats of

people they apprehend using this method, and of the people who slip by. That's the only way to really know which works better.

But assuming the personnel are as well trained as those in Israel and elsewhere then yes, it would personally be good enough for me. As it is now, as I understand it, if someone has stowed something in a body cavity it would be undetectable on the scanner and unless vaginal and rectal probing is done, I don't thing the pat down would find anything either.

But I understand your point, and I would buck up and do what it took if I had to fly somewhere, but I still personally feel there are better methods as evidenced by other countries, which aren't nearly as potentially harmful or demeaning.

[Barack_America]

18. Israel has investigated themselves and cleared themselves of any wrongdoing.

[avaistheone1]

53. Israel's record of 30 years without ever having an airliner shot out of the sky speaks for itself.

I am all for the Israeli screening system.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Well, duh. Palestinians and Israeli citizens do not get the same treatment.

Whether it's "racial" profiling or nationality profiling or last name profiling or what-have-you, I guarantee that they have a fairly good idea of who they think the threats are, and focus much more heavily on those people.

[treestar]

23. If there is one thing I'm sure of, it is that the government of Israel knows

who is a Muslim and who isn't. They claim those citizens have the same rights. But they do have Palestinian citizens of Israel.

To be sure they are more often picked out for suspicion. Come on.

Even so, how would that work here? Just because someone is an old white lady doesn't make it impossible.

We did have a requirement that Arab men between ages, like 16-49 or something register. Those who weren't citizens. There is actually ageist profiling, assuming older people won't do these things. They may be less likely to.

But if a bomb goes off the government will get blamed no matter what it does.

[David__77]

25. If there is another "911"-type incident, it won't be committed by the expected profile.

Let us say that there is another incident as occurred before. Any group with the sophistication to execute such an event would deploy operatives that do NOT fit the expected profile. And THEN everyone would change their tune suddenly.

[Recursion]

31. In Israel your ID card says whether you are Jewish, Arab, or Other

So it's not that hard. And actually there are plenty of Mizrahim (Jewish people from the Middle East) who will say they get a lot of profiling in Israel because they "look Arab".

[jberryhill]

34. Your religion is printed on your ID if you are Jewish? Really?

How is that relevant to anything that should be on a government ID?

[Recursion]

35. It doesn't say whether you practice Judaism

It says whether you are ethnically Jewish.

[bettyellen]

36. and that's why we couldn't use this system in the USA

[sally cat]

39. No, we avoid this problem by simply not doing it. Our ID's don't have this and won't.

[bettyellen]

42. that's what I said, but whatever.

[jberryhill]

37. Why? What purpose does that serve on an ID?

[Recursion]

38. I think the answer to that is pretty obvious

Don't you?

[sally cat]

40. As is the realization that we would not go there.

[bettyellen]

43. oh we, "go there" but don't put the info on IDs or leave a paper trail

[bettyellen]

41. i'm guessing so they can judge people as security risks? a friend who

has family in and travels to Isreal every year said that there are ethnically speaking,some Arabs that aren;t perceived as a threat. Cities like Abu Gosh where the population has been "stable" and happy to intermingle with Jews for many years and no one "worries" about them, so they don;t get the full shakedown. Her words, not mine. She said other places are hot spots, and that "other" can be a red flag too. I only know this beause I was going to go work in Abu Gosh and she volunteered that for an Arab city, the security wasn;t going to be a big issue for me.

[jberryhill]

52. So if the I'D says "Jewish" they are less of a security risk?

Uh, I dunno about you, but that sounds pretty much like the definition of profiling

[bettyellen]

54. oh yeah it's profiling for sure. I just wasn;t sure if people would call it ethnic

or racial. I'll leave that to others to debate. But from what I have heard part of the repeated interviewing is to make sure you are who your ID says, because the IDs have been screened agressively for "risk" and using a fake ID is one of the better ways to get past them. So you have to fool a few people before you can get on a plane.

[Bullet1987]

50. I've heard rumors of Jim Crow style treatment of Falasha Jews (African) immigrants

in Israel. Things like signs restricting them access to businesses, biases in employment, etc. I've never seen it reported on, but then many stories that can be deemed "anti-Israel" are regularly ignored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. They both rumors and not rumors

it is not official policy, and in fact many of the Falasha end up in the Special Forces units, since they want to SERVE in Spec Ops and are great soldiers.

But like the US, one thing is to have official policy, and quite another to get over racism. There is also some of that happening with immigrants from Russia... as well as Latin America.

Also Israel has a not so charming characteristic. If you were born and raised in Israel you do have certain advantages over immigrants, especially those who came too late to serve.

There is a clear division between the Sabra and the non - Sabra...

Hell, I know I'd get a less than equal opportunity since I was not born there, and I am too old to serve in the IDF, never mind I have already served, somewhere else. And I got the nightmares that go with it.