Perhaps it's those so scared of the terraists that they are willing to see all our rights in the...

[laughingliberal]

toilet (It's just a damned piece of paper, after all) who ought to consider not flying.

Or is shitting on our Constitution now the price of a ticket?

Repeal the fucking Patriot Act, restore the original FISA laws, and stop the march of the police state. It's 2 minutes til midnight, people.

[Autumn]

1. And the clock is ticking

excellent post and a big :dem: kick.

[TheKentuckian]

2. No doubt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Thirty seconds

I should now stop plotting dystopias...reality is far worst.

[kentuck]

4. More and more...

I can understand how the Nazis got the people behind them.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

17. Small steps, one at a time.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

5. I'm proud to live in a small town of 1200 persons on the

southern Oregon coast who voted to be Patriot Act free, just one of only about three hundred in the entire USA to do so. Grow a spine people, learn how to say no, learn how to push back, learn how to take back what really matters to all of us, our rights and our freedoms.

[laughingliberal]

8. I remember how we all cheered the few places who did this during the Bush years. I commend you and

your town.

What have we become? :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I was responsible for the state of hawaii saying nyet

Long and worthy story.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

25. Thanks for all the hard work, no retirement, day after day.

[laughingliberal]

27. Thank you for that. We need many more like you. nt

[truedelphi]

6. Big Big Kick. n/t

[northernlights]

7. +10B those who sacrifice liberty in exchange for safety

deserve neither and lose both. Or something like that. Benjamen Franklin.

Yup. If you're so scared of terr'ists, drive, take the train or stay the fuck home.

Oh, that Constitution. The Bill of Rights. What quaint bits n' pieces o' paper. :grr: :grr: :grr:

[SaveOurDemocracy]

9. Rights given up rarely, if ever, are restored ...

without revolution. I was really counting on a Democratic Administration supporting and restoring our Constitutional Rights. Silly me.

[doc03]

10. You don't want scanners, when a plane is blown out of the sky

don't blame the government.

[laughingliberal]

13. I never have blamed the government when a plane was blown out of the sky. Nor when a drunk driver...

hit another car. I blame the criminals.

I do blame the government when they start treating people who have done nothing wrong like criminals with no probable cause, whatsoever.

I'll take my chances with the terraists.

[doc03]

16. If it is not PC to profile the only alternative I can see is

to subject everyone to the scanners or a search. I went through a scanner when I saw the President last month, it wasn't any big deal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Read my sig

Or not...

[laughingliberal]

20. Your personal experience is irrelevant. It's all about the fourth amendment and the erosion of...

rights.

And your short sightedness does not change that.

[doc03]

22. Boy I saw one hell of a lot of blame going around back on 9-11

from the government ignored the warning signs to the government actually blew up the planes to get us in a war. I am not saying you did so don't get excited..

[laughingliberal]

28. What I saw was a lot of people wondering why we had intelligence we failed to use.

There is no liberty that does not come at a price.

If the terrarists hate us for our freedom, they can relax.

[treestar]

48. to what extent will you take your chances?

Would you fly with no screening at all? Why is the line here when it was OK before, so long as there was no full body scan?

And you would have said "oh well" had the crotch bomber killed people last Christmas. Right? That's the price of freedom. No railing at the government.

[Laelth]

15. I will not allow my children to be molested just to protect Obama's popularity.

Your concern about who might be blamed in the event of an attack means little to me when it comes to protecting my family.

-Laelth

[treestar]

47. What did the poster say about Obama or his popularity?

Nothing.

How are you personally going to protect your family on an airplane? Demand the right to approve of the other passengers first?

[Lucian]

23. ...

:eyes:

What a stupid argument. Flying was safe for years before legalized gropings and scanners came onto the scene.

[treestar]

46. +500000

And quit blaming the government for 911. When the Patriot Act was passed, a large majority were all for it (and the war in Afghanistan). Right after 911, that is. Now they're getting comfortable again!

[hobbit709]

49. Why not? I blamed the government's failure to act the last time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Do a little googling and tally the number of terrorist incidents since 2001

(most of which were only ATTEMPTED by goofballs, such as the London bombers who didn't even have passports and therefore would not have been allowed on any plane in the UK, or the known suspect Underwear Bomber who somehow managed to get on a plane) against the number of "ordinary" plane crashes due to mechanical malfunctions, pilot error, or weather during that period.

If you want to not die on an airplane, lobby for better mechanical maintenance, assurances that pilots aren't overtired or otherwise incapacitated, and better weather prediction.

It is childish to thank that Big Uncle Sam or anyone else can guarantee 100% safety. Realizing that anything can happen to anyone, even people who take all possible precautions, is part of growing up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Fire Marshal Bill, is that you?

Let me show you something.

[eShirl]

58. DEAL!

[krabigirl]

69. Lol, if you think these scanners prevent that...you are dreaming.

[stray cat]

11. Why do people think anyone really wants to look at them - Feel sorry for the TSA employees

who actually may have to touch you

[laughingliberal]

14. Totally missing the point, as expected. nt

[Greyhound]

24. Didn't miss it, just dodging it as usual.

These guys got nothing and it becomes clearer every day.

Just wait, it will be our fault when we must pledge fealty to President Romney.

[doc03]

18. Amen, I would rather not see about 99% of the population

on any scanner.

[laughingliberal]

26. Not about who you do or do not want to see naked. But you know that. nt ;)

[ima_sinnic]

57. wow, that's like, deep, man

I never stopped to consider the poor widdle TSA employees forced to grope passengers.
Heavens, CALL CONGRESS RIGHT NOW ON BEHALF OF TSA EMPLOYEES.
EVERYBODY, book a flight somewhere NOW to show we are in full support of poor abused TSA employees forced to examine gross prostheses, dirty casts, and assorted unmentionable items.
I had no idea ... :cry:

[flyarm]

59. I don't want any stranger touching my private parts ..got that??????????

I have had intricate surgery on my privates due to cancer..I don't want anyone but a medically trained person touching me ..is that so fucking hard for you to understand???????????? are you so willing to give up your rights ?????????? If you are, as it seems you are..you do not have the right to give up my rights!

My best friends grand daughter lost her leg as an infant , she is 5 years old now, She flys to St Jude's for new Prosthesis every few months. She is required to remove her leg each time she flies. Do You have any fucking Idea what that does to a little girl age 5 ????????????? How about her getting groped ?????????????
She gets teased by her peers and is told by kids she is scarey..now she goes to the airport and adults are telling her with their actions..she is scarey..so scarey they have to feel her NUB..and see her Prosthesis off and look it over , like it is a scarey thing..instead of just part of her body as her parents and grandparents have told her it is.

Because I was a flight crew for many, many years and she is like a grand daughter to me as well, I fly out and Fly with her , so she is not made too frightened by her journey through the fucking airports!

Now the groping will be worse for her. She will not be exempt from the groping.

If you want to give up your rights ..fine ..you go put a sign on yourself and go through the airport and say you are a scaredey cat..and say you love groping..but do not speak for the rest of us!

I find this process and intimidation and molestation absurd at best!

Ask your government why THEY LET THE UNDERWEAR BOMBER ONTO AN INTERNATIONAL USA BOUND FLIGHT WITHOUT A PASSPORT.

psssssssssssssttttttttt..that would be impossible without our government allowing it!

Then we might get somewhere in this process!

from a now retired 33 yr flight crew of a Major Airline.

[ima_sinnic]

76. bless you, flyarm, and your little friend

For some, abuse of power and government incompetence are okay and acceptable, and in fact should be a way of life for everybody. For them, too much freedom is a bad thing--everybody should be monitored and cowed and afraid. Hey, there's always Iran if freedom is so scary.

Thank goodness we do still have people like you and so many here at DU willing to just say no.

:hug:

[Laelth]

12. Hear, hear! k&r n/t

-Laelth

[Little Star]

29. Amen Laughingliberal, Amen.

[14thColony]

30. Given the comments I've seen re: this subject

here on a liberal/progressive site of all places, I now believe more firmly than ever that this slide into fascism will not even be slowed, let alone stopped. This is how a democracy dies.

[laughingliberal]

42. +1000 nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. Yep!

x(

[AsahinaKimi]

65. +1000

agreed.

[krabigirl]

71. It's not that progressives are ok with this, it is because "our guy" is in charge.

Which is even more sickening.

[katnapped]

31. Hell with flying

I don't think some of these people should crawl out from under the bed in the morning.

[laughingliberal]

33. Lol! Welcome to DU. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. hehee

:evilgrin:

[MadMaddie]

32. I don't know why no one has simply called the Republicans out

on being cowards. They are fearful of their own shadows. Junior and Chertoff were the epitome of fear yet no one ever talks about it.

Why don't we put them on the defensive? It isn't that hard the evidence is available...

[doc03]

35. From what I understand it is the Republicans that have been

fueling this hysteria about scanners and pat downs in order to discredit the Administration and Democrats have fallen for it hook line and sinker..What the hell you all call the Republicans cowards because they are scared of terrorists and you all are scared of a body scan. It looks like Bin Laden has won either way. :bounce:

[laughingliberal]

38. The Republicans started the march towards the erosion of rights. If they want to be hypocrites...

and scream about it now, so be it. If they're not screaming for repeal of the Patriot Act and restoration of the FISA laws, it's disingenuous, politically motivated hogwash.

OTOH, those here who, rightfully, screamed bloody murder when Bush killed a few amendments who are now supporting further police state tactics are no better. I either believe in the rights of the people no matter who's in office or I'm just another party hack whose moral compass changes with the wind.

It's not the body scan that scares me. It's the loss of our right to privacy which the right wing, 'originalists' have never believed existed, anyway. :bounce:

[flyarm]

51. You must not be a Doc after all! Because I do know my Docs think it is an"outrage" to send people

through these machines with TSA agents very minimally trained in XRay machines and radiation!

How long to Xray Techs train????????? Perhaps more than 6 weeks????????

Well TSA people train approx 6 weeks , if that..and they may get a couple of hours of training ..if that, on these Xray Machines. They are trained to run them, not how to detect excess raditation or radiation leaks.

Ever go to the dentist? Ever get that heavy protector put on you? There is a reason for that..to protect your organs and womens reproductive organs.

Ever get pregnant? What is the first question asked every women who goes to the dentist that needs x-rays?? ARE YOU OR IS THERE A POSSIBILITY YOU COULD BE PREGNANT?? HAVE YOU HAD BREAST CANCER

EVER BREAK A BONE AND HAVE TO GO TO GET XRAYS? What is the first question you get asked if you are a young woman or a woman of any age... ARE YOU PREGNANT OR IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY YOU COULD BE PREGNANT? HAVE YOU HAD BREAST CANCER.

These are questions only your Medically qualified doctors or nurses should be asking you, because they are QUALIFIED to administer XRAYS to human beings!

A TSA agent is not medically qualified nor trained properly to administer XRAYS!

End of story. And if you are a Doc , you should be well aware of that.

No matterr how safe you are told by corporate whores these machines are.

My life will not be risked by these machines and those unqualified running them, nor will anyone in my famiily take that risk.

I would rather miss my flight.

From a 33 yr Flight crew, retired American Airlines.

[MadMaddie]

80. I am not scared of a body scan

I have a problem with Chertoff being heavily invested in the technology. Have we see any evidence that they have stopped anyone from carrying anything illegal?

My other question is they say they are doing this because the terrorist are going to try to use prostetics....well my first question is "What the Fuck"? Are you telling me this massive security arm we have couldn't predict that was a possibility? Are these the same people that couldn't imagine planes flying into tall buildings? Are you kidding me.....n

No my concern is more than someone copping a feel in the name of security.

[bvar22]

34. I'm not afraid of the terraists.

I am afraid of the growing Police State, Constitutional Erosion, and the lack of an Opposition Party.

K&R
:patriot:


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

[laughingliberal]

40. I salute you as one who still stands as one of the moral compasses left in our party.

bvar22 for President

:patriot:

[hobbit709]

52. Exactly. I'm more afraid of the police state too.

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. +1000!

[flyarm]

64. + 1 million! thank you! eom

[Eyerish]

66. Hear Hear Bvar!!! +1

:thumbsup:

[katnapped]

72. + infinity n/t

[ima_sinnic]

78. you always speak for me, bvar

:loveya:

[Scurrilous]

36. Right on!

Power to the people!!1!

[Individualist]

37. K&R

[Blue_In_AK]

39. When you think how much more likely we are to die

from causes other than terrorist attacks, the whole thing seems kind of stupid. I have no problem with being wanded by a metal detector as you are when you enter a court building or prison, for example, but all this new intrusive stuff is really overkill.

[laughingliberal]

41. I'm with you. I'd rather face a few risks in life and keep my rights.

The far right has never recognized a right to privacy and this new violation will just solidify that thinking more.

[flyarm]

43. Back to common sense ..again.......Both so called " bombers" came on International flights..

no one from Europe is taking off their shoes or getting groped!

So why are we domestically being abused ???????????

These guys came from OUT OF THE COUNTRY..not domestically.

The underwear bomber got on an international flight with no passport.

Impossible without our government being involved.

One thing that is required leaving Europe on any International flight to the USA is the requirement to show, all the way through the security process, your passport. And upon BOARDING a Flight USA Bound, all Passengers MUST SHOW THIER PASSPORT..or they don't board a US BOUND FLIGHT!

SOOOOOOOOOOO... who with our government got the underwear bomber on that aircraft and HOW??? Past the Airline ground crew and Boarding agents and the Flight Crew????????????

Before this groping goes forward...and Americans Submit to this molestation, .someone in this government owes all of us some "SPLAININ"!


Fly.. a 33 yr, now retired, Flight Crew American Airlines.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. That story never did pass the smell test

nor did the one that led to the banning of liquids, the "bombers" in London who hadn't actually put any explosives together and didn't have passports, which meant that they couldn't even board domestic flights in the UK.

It's all part of the sausage slicing method of taking away our civil liberties. After all, it's "for our own safety," just as the Argentine "dirty war" was "to protect Argentina from terrorism."

[flyarm]

55. It is absolutely taking away our rights, but it is also breaking our laws and Constitution

and any American that stands for that, with these "ruse's" of friday night fright stories, is out of their minds and Does not deserve one ounce of respect or credibility from the rest of us who are not buying the bullshit!

If it is the case that so many are willing to give up freedoms, then you stand for NOTHING.

I just stood in Berlin's Topography of Terror Museum, the first two rows of the exibits there was one common explaination how the Reich was born and how Hitler got away with so much and took Germany over. It was the destruction of the Rule of Law. That was stated over and over again. The destrution of Democracy in Germany was brought about by the constant breaking of the Rule of Law.

Never forget ..Democracy is a very fragile IDEA..many try to destroy it and have for centuries. They only succeed when the people allow the rule of law to be broken.

Our rule of law keeps being broken.

I fear that more than I could ever fear a so called bomber our government allowed to get on a Internatiional flight with no passport!

[grahamhgreen]

44. It may be 2 minutes after.... K&R

[kctim]

45. Interesting points

but they are all for naught.
Fear always wins.
The 4th Amendment will suffer the same fate as the 2nd Amendment.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. I wondered what Canadian regulations were

I live within a day's drive of Winnipeg, which has an international airport.

But then I looked at the Winnipeg airport's website and found that they have the same regulations.

Damn.

[LWolf]

63. k&r

[Dinger]

67. K & R. This Shit Must Stop (nt)

[krabigirl]

68. K & R

[sarcasmo]

70. Homeland Security destroyed our constitution and this is another step in that destruction.

Those who are for the pat downs are scared and will accept anything the government tells them. OBEY!

[Eyerish]

73. K&R

[katnapped]

74. Come on PEOPLE

Team O needs you to bend over and spread em!

"Comply or the Republicans WIN" say the SKEEEEERED DU posters!

:sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

75. You are right, there will always be those who are willing to

trade rights for the false feeling of safety and/or for profit. But I am encouraged that America may finally be waking up. Oppressive governments will keep pushing so long as there is no resistance, and for so long here in this country, the 'fear' factor, the despicable use of the deaths of the victims of 9/11 has bought this government a free ticket to destroy our rights. Shame on Americans who allowed this to happen.

However, it was very much based on a 'divide and conquer' tactic. With Republicans in power, rightwingers defended every abuse of our Constitution. Any who did not were quickly silenced.

The PTBs who manipulate all of this are happy to keep this nation divided. They provide us with plenty of fuel for that fire, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Fox and know that when these clowns attack Democrats, we will 'look over there' and rush to defend them.

But something has changed. The 'left' traditionally is far less likely to defend their own once it is clear they are doing wrong, than the right. That's not to say we don't have our own 'my party right or wrong' members of the 'team'.

But now with the TSA abuses growing, many ordinary Americans once secure in the belief that the government is 'only protecting us' are beginning at last to wonder 'is the miniscule threat of death by terror really worth the indignities, the acceptance of policies that assume all Americans are criminals, the giving up of even more of our freedoms and rights, really worth this'?

For the first time in ten years that I can remember, other than on the Bailouts, the public appears to be united, right, left, independents, libertarians. They appear to be finally saying 'enough'!

Maybe this is because the other measures, the Patriot Act eg, was not so intrusive on a daily basis that people were even aware of it, but these abusive tactics against people's children, wives, husbands, elderly parents, this created a very graphic picture of what we have been trying to tell them for so long. NOW, they can SEE it.

However, as has already begun to happen, the PTBs do not like this unity among the people, so they will once again try to divide us down party lines. So when Republican Senators come out against these tactics, rather than accept their support, regardless of their, most likely self-serving motives, we are told to 'look over there, HE'S A REPUBLICAN, he's a hypocrite, he started us down this road etc. etc.' All true. However being diverted by this relatively minor point, only serves to direct attention AWAY from the main issue, and we must not allow it to happen.

We now have an opportunity to educate the right on the fact that their support for Bush's abuses led to what they now find so offensive. And trust me, I am already having fun doing just that. But none of this should cause Democrats to remain silent our of loyalty to a political party. This is a golden opportunity to start turning the public away from giving any more blind support to politicians and war-profiteers based on their ghoulish use of the tragedy of 9/11.

I am hopeful now that things may change. I will definitely point out hypocrisy to my rightwing friends, but I will not take the opposite position simply because of their culpability in what they now are so angry about. I am glad they are finally angry.

[laughingliberal]

77. Eloquently stated, as always, sabrina. nt

[Bryn]

79. Since we're being controlled by America Corporate these days

TSA is just an excuse to have another corporation to grow due to those machines ... for profits. Just like wars are for profits (War is a Racket)

The way they are doing at airports now is creepy ... I'd rather have my freedom than be fenced in by criminals. The way they did before was fine. They're going too far..too extreme now.