Do you blame soldiers for a war? We have soldiers killing innocent civilians

[La Lioness Priyanka]

in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Often these innocent bystanders are children. However do you really blame soldiers for this?

If you do, I can see how you can blame the front-line inspectors at the TSA. If you don't, I don't see how you can blame TSA front-line personnel. It would be logically inconsistent.

The decisions for the war/intrusive search were made by higher ups, not by the people who have to do the dirty work. We are blaming another group of pretty powerless people, because we feel powerless against this intrusion.

I agree that these searches are pretty horrific but I maintain that most people are blaming the wrong group of people.

Blame the people who make these decision. Not the poor people (literally poor) who have to carry it out.

[jonnyblitz]

1. do you think the rank and file nazi's should have been blamed

for killing the jews during world war II?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. are tsa employees killing people in gas chambers? or are you talking about soldiers?

a lot of studies show that people generally follow orders from authority, i can blame rank and file nazi all i want, but i also know that statistically speaking, most people would behave in the ways they did

[jonnyblitz]

10. i was talking about soldiers. i don't compare soldiers to tsa

employees. nevermind. i am sorry i got involved in this conversation without thinking it through. I am going to bow out of this thread and move on.

I was on a battleship during Desert Storm that lobbed tomahawk missles into Iraq and have felt guilty about that ever since. but i digress. :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. i am sure soldiers do feel guilt and shame & this is what should drive us

to not jump into wars we dont need to be in :hi:

[blondeatlast]

2. +1000. I don't think TSA wmployees are enjoying this any more than passengers are--

and jobs are precious nowadays.

American culture has finally, I hope, bottomed out. But I doubt it. Sad, so sad...

[PeaceNikki]

4. I am very offended at calling them "molesters"

Anyone who thinks that this is actually molestation or equates it to molestation is fucking wrong. I get pissed when people get too liberal with the word "rape", also.

[blondeatlast]

8. +11,000. Words matter--cheapening words that describe hideous acts

does no one any favors.

[hlthe2b]

11. when the very same actions would get the man/woman on the street

arrested for sexual assault or molestation, it is a difference in semantics. No matter how many times you use the "F" term to make your point, it is a difference without meaning to the person on the receiving end (or the parent watching it be done to their horrified child).

[PeaceNikki]

13. Bullshit. A thousand times, bullshit.

[hlthe2b]

16. Bullshit. A trillion time, bullshit. Happy, now?

:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

17. So it's not the act that's molestation, it's the person doing the act?

[PeaceNikki]

21. The acts surrounding REAL molestation are really quite different

than what the TSA is doing and it's harmful to put it in the same category. Quite frankly, as a survivor of abuse, I am seriously offended by the continued use of the term "molestation".

[hlthe2b]

23. Then I should think you would likewise understand how traumatic

this groping is to someone who had suffered sexual assault, rape, or molestation. Yet, you defend it. I find that very hard to understand.

[PeaceNikki]

28. You really shouldn't. Again, the circumstances and acts surrounding each are quite different.

When you're being molested, raped, assaulted, it's not in public. When you scream, nobody hears you. When you cry, there's nobody to hug you. There's no supervisor, parent, friend, or concerned stranger making sure that you're not being slapped. Your mouth is not being covered and the person touching you isn't looking into your eyes with hate, anger and spite.

It's really quite different than what happens at the airport.

[hlthe2b]

30. With respect to your experience...

your interpretation and conclusions are quite in contrast to others I have seen post on the issue and to those I know in my own life who have suffered similar.

[PeaceNikki]

33. I believe that the TSA gropes could conjure up bad memories for survivors,

for DAMN sure. But what they do is NOT equivalent to and should not be called "molestation".

[hlthe2b]

34. A poster below has given the dictionary definition of "molestation"

It does appear to be the correct term, even if this is not intended by policy to be sexual. :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

27. I was molested as a pre teen..

A man my parents knew grabbed my crotch.

It sounds like what is happening at the TSA inspections differs very little from what happened to me..

Or was what happened to me not "molestation" but something else?

[Greyhound]

25. Here this might help you.

mo·lest

–verb (used with object)
1. to bother, interfere with, or annoy.
2. to make indecent sexual advances to.
3. to assault sexually

It is molestation and doing because "it's your job" in no way alters that.

Words do have meaning and this fits the definition completely. Your objection is to the connotation attached to the word, but that is irrelevant.

[Hawkowl]

5. Yes.

Yes I blame "our troops", they are all volunteers. It is not like Vietnam or even Korea where people were drafted against their will. And yes I blame the grossest violations on the frontline TSA agents. There is a tremendous disparity between airports and the conduct of the TSA. Some airports are very good (Portland Oregon) and some are atrocious (Memphis Tennessee or Colorado Springs). I've been to 90% of all the commercial airports in the US and Canada within the past few years.

[creon]

6. It happens

Atrocities are perpetrated in all wars; and, by soldiers in all armies. The USA military is not an exception.

Soldiers have to be trained so that atrocities are rare. Also, atrocities, when committed, have to be punished and not brushed off.

But, unlawful killing will be done in war.

[hlthe2b]

7. Depends on the circumstances. I certainly do if no steps were taken

to prevent innocent loss of life or they killed them intentionally. I certainly would blame them for that. Some TSA employees are trying to be professional in dealing with a difficult situation beyond their control. Others are NOT. So, just like the soldiers, it depends. Blaming the bad apples does not mean one does not likewise go after those promulgating the policy. That is a straw man argument that I refuse to buy into.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i dont think this is a strawman at all. i agree that people who are bad apples

should be blamed, i disagree with calling all tsa people molesters and other such things. things that group bad apples with all apples

[hlthe2b]

15. I do not call TSA "molesters"

I do believe there may have been some TSA agents who took it too far and may have crossed the line. The policy is paramount to legalized molestation, however in my very sincere, honest opinion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. i think the policy is awful and should be struck down and that some TSA

agents will behave badly.

i am against blaming the rank n file in a blanket way

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

14. Blame war on the 2% and corporations and blame the search

methods on management.

[Greyhound]

19. In an all volunteer military, yes.

Not one person that signed up after 2002 is innocent.
:kick: U

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. i respect your logical consistency and hope that you are genuinely one of those people

who would be able to say no to authority. While most of us in hypothetical situations say we can, in real situations we dont.

[Greyhound]

35. Thank you for that and yes, I am one of those fools that do live by my principles.

I have paid, and continue to pay, a heavy price for them, but we only get one chance at life and it is short.

The only compensation I have is the knowledge that, should I die today I have only minor regrets (mostly just being a dumb kid before I really learned what it means to do the right thing) and that I have enjoyed it to the fullest without intentionally causing pain to others.

The problem I see with giving a pass for this kind of behavior is that it never ends. Everybody can sympathize with someone committing or enabling minor atrocities because they have a family to support, bills to pay, whatever, but the minor atrocities invariably escalate. The cop that enforces laws (s)he knows to be unjust will continue to enforce ever more unjust laws and wakes up one day realizing that (s)he has spent their entire life oppressing other people but that is now who (s)he is.

Every time humanity goes through this, it started with just a little injustice, just a minor infraction, only a few are hurt. We all know this, it is written in all the Good Books and warned against by all of the great teachers, but we close our eyes and tell ourselves, "if I refuse there will just be someone else that will do it".

This is at the very heart of Burke's "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

You are advocating that good men continue to do nothing and perhaps worse, that they get a pass for it.

I hope you have noticed that evil is prevailing all around us.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. evil will continue till we decide to really hold accountable the people who are responsible

you and i just disagree on who is responsible and at what level

[Greyhound]

37. I don't think we do. The evil at the top cannot exist without our cooperation.

The evil that pervades the world exists because we allow it.

But what can one person do? One person can refuse. Despite the BS hype about Raygun and economics, this is what ended the Soviet Union, one person saying "no". Nelson Mandela spent 20+ years in prison for saying no. Gandhi was killed for saying no. The list is long and the price is high but it is what must be done.

We are all responsible for what we do and what we allow.

[NuclearDem]

38. While I respect your principles...

I'd like to point out the false equivalency between soldiers and the TSA.

It's a lot harder for soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines to just "quit". They're bound by contracts that keep them in the military, whether they change their minds on the war effort or not. People who signed up in 2002 because they wanted to go after OBL when there still was a chance to capture him couldn't just up and quit when OEF turned into an occupation.

Soldiers are only as good as the information they have. The message we're sending IS getting through; it's apparent through the leaks that soldiers ARE willing to risk a lot to put an end to war; but those that have families back home can't just throw their loved ones out through the risk of being sent to Leavenworth for treason or going AWOL.

From personal experience, I've noticed people in the field becoming more and more reluctant to carry out orders they believe will put innocent lives in danger. We're doing the best we can to prevent the evil of the war from harming more people; but we're in an extremely tough spot.

TSA employees can quit when they want. They aren't bound by the same contract.

[Autumn]

20. You can't blame anyone but the idiots

who implement these stupid procedures. In both cases they are our "patriotic" so called leaders, who all believe our Constitution is a piece of paper to wipe their dirty asses.

[bobbolink]

22. I blame soldiers who rape other soldiers.

There is no excuse!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. ok but how is that particularly relevant here?

[bobbolink]

31. Sorry. I thought you were talking about BLAME. I guess I misread the word.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i am talking about blame but also making an analogy and i didnt understand you

comment.

[w8liftinglady]

24. as the mom of one of those soldiers,I agree 100%

The fault lies with those who send the troops to war,and those who write these insane policies for TSA.

For the record,my son...A VOLUNTEER... was a mechanic in the Army.He was sent to Iraq 3 times.The first 2 to basically shoot whatever entered their perimeter-not be a mechanic.He will still not discuss the particulars.I know he saw a kid get killed,and I know it ate his soul.

There are always bad apples in any bunch.Understand that the majority of troops are eaten alive from the inside out over what they've seen...what they've done.

The same with TSA employees.They have to follow the rules,or lose their jobs,and possibly go to jail.

[Arctic Dave]

39. Yes, they are just as much to blame as anyone who cheerleaded the entire fiasco.

Yes, TSA employees are just as much to blame as the person who wrote the rules.

[DutchLiberal]

40. I blame everybody who is "just following orders"...

Whether they be soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan, or TSA personnel.

You know that Buffy St. Marie song, 'The universal soldier'?

But without him, how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him, Cesar would have stood alone.
He's the one who gives his body as a weapon to the war,
and without him all this killing can't go on