Over 100 U.S. charter schools now officially tied to Turkish Gulen movement.

[madfloridian]

There has been a lot of discussion about it, but Fethullah Gulen has always denied that he is connected to any of these charter schools.

Now, though, it appears to be right out in the open. Some words were spoken at the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy at Rice University that undeniably ties the two together. Public tax dollars are going to over 100 charter schools in the US, as well as to other schools that are religious in nature.

That is wrong. Public dollars should not be going to any schools with religious themes. The speakers describes the Gulen movement as a moderate muslim one...but I still disagree with public dollars going to them. I just think it is a dangerous crossing of a line between religious and secular. Too easily accepted now.

Joshua D. Hendrick of the University of Oregon discusses how the Gülen Movement has affected 21st century Turkish society.

Joshua D. Hendrick, Ph.D., visiting assistant professor of international studies at the University of Oregon, addresses the conflict between Turkey’s secular and Islamic forces by explaining the organizational impact of the education and business community known as the Gülen Movement. The followers of Fethullah Gülen, one of Turkey's most famous and controversial religious personalities, attract a great deal of international attention because of the extent of their education network, which now spans over 100 countries and includes approximately 100 charter schools in the United States. “Gülen schools” receive international praise because of the high academic success rates of their students and the moderate brand of Islam exemplified by their Turkish schoolteachers and administrators. Hendrick’s extensive ethnographic fieldwork and research seeks to explain the movement’s emergence as Turkey’s most influential nonpartisan, nonmilitary social force. His work also examines the ways in which its participants aim to aid in the reform of Turkey’s power structure in line with the interests of a new 21st century conservative Muslim elite.

Y. Alp Aslandogan, Ph.D., is the president of the Institute of Interfaith Dialog. The group was founded by participants in the Gülen Movement in Texas to foster direct interaction among members of various faiths by means of interfaith dinners, public lectures, sponsored trips to Turkey and academic conferences. As one of the Gülen Movement’s leading intellectuals, Aslandogan will offer a response to Hendrick’s analysis.

I find myself wondering if Arne Duncan and this administration realize what is being funded with taxpayer money? I wonder if they realize that 8 religious schools in Florida became charters to get better funding to survive financially? Are they doing it intentionally. or are they unaware? And if the latter, why are they unaware.

The Perimeter Primate has a very long article on this with a huge number of references given.

The affiliation between the Gulen Movement and a large network of U.S. charter schools is now official

New mainstream sources confirm the connection between members of the Gulen Movement and a large network of U.S. charter schools (122+). The association is undeniable. At long last, the American public is gaining knowledge about the Gulen Movement's activities in the U.S. and an honest public conversation about this unusual situation can commence. Since there is no official singular Gulen Movement organization in the U.S. which provides the public with a comprehensive list of the schools operated by its members, a listing of the probable affected charter schools is presented HERE.

In These Times has an article about one of these schools which actually hired a union-busting law firm when its teachers tried to unionize.

Chicago Math and Science Academy: Great Academics, Ugly Unionbusting

...."What neither the Concept Schools nor the Chicago Math and Science Academy websites mention is that most of the leadership is part of something called the Gulen Movement. Despite my many years of interfaith work, I was not familiar with the Gulen Movement, although what I have read about it impresses me. But there is something weird about a charter school being so closely linked to a philosophy, the Gulen Movement, that isn’t even mentioned or referred to on its website.

When I went to the school’s board meeting on July 8, I was taken aback to see a board of directors comprised entirely of men. They all appeared of Turkish, Bosnian or Croatian descent. Although I have nothing against Turkish, Bosnian or Croatian men, it does seem that a school board serving students who are 58 percent Hispanic/Latino, 25 percent African American, 12 percent Asian and 5 percent white might be well served by some women board members and board members from ethnic backgrounds the school predominantly serves.

...."Chicago Math and Science Academy has hired Seyfarth Shaw, a notoriously expensive union-busting law firm, to advise it in dealing with the union. Anyone who has experience in labor issues in Chicago knows the anti-union reputation of Seyfarth Shaw. It is sad that a school facing budget cuts would waste resources in hiring a law firm to help it fight having a union. But that is exactly what is happening.

Charter schools in Illinois are covered by the Illinois Educational Labor Relations Board, which requires that a union be certified when a simple majority (50 percent plus one) of teachers signs a “union authorization card.” This process is referred to as “card check.” (The Concepts Schools website clearly states its support for state laws.)

Apparently, some charter operators do not believe such state regulations extend to labor relations.

Here are some examples of how those in the Gulen movement denied any connection to the charter schools here.

The schools educate as many as 35,000 students — taken together they’d make up the largest charter school network in the USA — and have imported thousands of Turkish educators over the past decade.But the success of the schools at times has been clouded by nagging questions about what ties the schools may have to a reclusive Muslim leader in his late 60s living in exile in rural Pennsylvania.

Top administrators say they have no official ties to Gülen. And Gülen himself denies any connection to the schools. Still, documents available at various foundation websites and in federal forms required of non-profit groups show that virtually all of the schools have opened or operate with the aid of Gülen-inspired “dialogue” groups, local non-profits that promote Turkish culture. In one case, the Ohio-based Horizon Science Academy of Springfield in 2005 signed a five-year building lease with the parent organization of Chicago’s Niagara Foundation, which promotes Gülen’s philosophy of “peace, mutual respect, the culture of coexistence.” Gülen is the foundation’s honorary president. In many cases, charter school board members also serve as dialogue group leaders.

Public money going to 100 Gulen charter schools

The speaker at the Baker Institute puts to rest the argument we have been hearing when we post about these schools...that they are not religious schools. The title of his speech has the words Transnational Religious Nationalism.

I think that makes it pretty clear. If that movement, like the Southern Baptist movement, and the Catholic churches want to have private schools, fine with me.

I think it is wrong to allow tax money to go to them.

[bhikkhu]

1. “peace, mutual respect, the culture of coexistence.”

I have no problem with schools founded on those principles, especially if they have strong academic records.

I would hope that some vague connection to Islam wouldn't be used to fan the flames, and that Democrats wouldn't use that to sick the teabaggers on charter schools which are otherwise exemplary.

[madfloridian]

2. You have no clue what I wrote, do you?

I made my beliefs very clear.

Careless reading is harmful.

[Dinger]

119. Yes It Is. Thanks For Posting:)

K & R MF:)

[madfloridian]

3. "sick the teabaggers on charter schools which are otherwise exemplary."

Point 1: It's "sic" not sick.

Point 2: Some charter schools are exemplary, most definitely not all. And if they run privately my tax money should not be going to them.

[bhikkhu]

33. Correction noted

..."sic" not sick. I usually scan better for errors before I post.

Not to impugn your character, but the barrage of attacks against schools of all types only harms kids. The OP is just another attack from another angle. While my kids are in good public schools and many of my friends are teachers at public schools, I would limit attacks on competing charter schools to the competence of their teaching.

[madfloridian]

36. But you are impugning my character by saying I harm kids.

I taught for over 30 years, I would never harm children.

You are approving of the privatization of public schools at the expense of taxpayers. That simply blows my mind.

[Chulanowa]

45. No. You're wrong

"Not to impugn your character, but the barrage of attacks against schools of all types only harms kids. "

Charter schools harm children and their families. They also harm the children and families who don't go - or can't get into - these schools.

"Charter schools" are a blight on our education system and all effort should be made to scrape them off the fabric of our culture. Doing so, in ANY WAY will only benefit students, teachers, and families.

[jberryhill]

50. The OP is not about "charter schools", it is about a subset of them

Making a point about charter schools is fine.

Making a point about whether taxpayers are supporting religious instruction is also fine.

Making a point about a particular set of charter schools, which are not providing religious instruction, on the basis that certain people connected with those schools are Muslim, is not fine.

Charter schools exist lawfully. Quite possibly the laws should be changed. But objecting to persons of a particular background or religious orientation engaging in lawful activity is something else entirely.

[Chulanowa]

53. I really doubt that was madfloridian's point at all

His argument is that he doesn't want our tax monies to go to a religious organization. I saw nothing from him that singled it out because it was Muslim - quite the opposite, in fact, it's simply because we should not be funding religious organizations, period.

Madfloridian certainly didn't play the "Islam is scary" card here. And I'm saying that as someone who does not hesitate to call that shit out when it does erupt; there are plenty of examples of it on DU, and this just isn't one.

[jberryhill]

54. But that happens all of the time

There are lots of religious organizations that receive government grants for non-religious stuff.

Should a researcher at Notre Dame get a research grant from NSF or NIH?

How far do you want to go with that?

[msanthrope]

56. Here, the OP hasn't given a single example of religious instruction

that happenened.

I'd be interested to hear what the facts are.

[Hannah Bell]

62. It doesn't matter if they give religious instruction or not. The line once was

that schools owned or run by religious groups couldn't get government funding. That's the line that charterization blurs, among others.

[msanthrope]

68. So, having not proved any religious instruction, you have proof that

Fetullah Gulen secretly owns the schools?

[Hannah Bell]

73. no, i have no "proof" he "owns" them. the network of financial, structural,

& personnel overlaps indicates that he/his followers control them in an organized, centralised fashion.

i didn't attempt to prove any religious instruction, btw. overt teaching of religion would violate their charters and draw attention to them, as well as turning off most potential pupils' families.

duh, that's why your aggressive focus on religious instruction is a total red herring. religious instruction is beside the point. state money is going to support an institution of religion.

[msanthrope]

78. Of course you have no proof...just a network that you, and some interesting company sees.

The discerning DUer can google for themselves the links between certain winger memes and gulen--

As in, it's a current winger meme that Dalia Mogahed is a secret Gulen plant in the White House. Also that Gulen is attempting to establish a 'universal caliphate' from the Poconos, protected by the CIA and the State Department.

Not for anything, but when I read stuff on DU that I see regularly promoted on anti-Obama-he-is-a-Kenyan-born-Muslin-sites I have to go "Hmmmmmm."

[Hannah Bell]

80. Any discerning poster can also see:

1. Your posts are empty except for the attempt to label Mad a freeper & nutty conspiracy theorist.
2. The content of Mad's posts on the Gulen schools has nothing to do with the content of freeper posts on the gulen schools.

Mad's posts are not anti-islamic, they are anti-charter school; and in this case, anti-charter schools that are run by religious organizations. They would be the same if the religious organization in question were catholic, protestant, scientologist, buddhist or sikh.

As far as I saw, Mad's post said nothing about the white house or a universal caliphate in the poconos. That is entirely something that you dragged into the conversation.

[msanthrope]

85. The OP herself posted this link---accusing the CIA of supporting Gulen---

"Did You Know: The King of Madrasas Now Operates Over 100 Charter Schools in the US?
Wednesday, 20. October 2010


Fethullah Gulen Takes the Great Game a Step Further

The Controversial Muslim preacher has now extended his tentacles into schools in the United States, where he controls and operates more than 100 charter schools within a calculatively set up maze of dubious NGOs. Fethullah Gulen, whose organizations’ net worth is estimated to be somewhere between $22 billion and $50 billion, owns and operates over three hundred Madrasas around the world, including Pakistan, Central Asia, and the Caucasus. While Gulen’s suspicious and secretive Madrasas have been shut down and or restrained in countries such as Russia, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan, based on these governments’ justified suspicions that his schools had more than just education on their agendas, his rapidly and secretively expanding charter school empire here in the US has gone quite unnoticed and unacknowledged.
SNIP

After years of investigating him the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security, due to his guardian angels in the State Department and the CIA, are prevented from bringing an indictment against him, so they try to kick him out of the US. But once again Gulen’s CIA angels step in and portray Gulen as a scholar, despite the fact that Fethullah Gulen doesn’t even have a high-school diploma and never went beyond the 5th grade. Among his angels who vouched for him were Graham Fuller, George Fidas, and Morton Abramowitz.

With his proven immunity Gulen accelerates his operations in the US, and now with a minimum $20 billion worth of operations and front organization he is the largest US charter school operator. Not only that, while American teachers are finding it much harder to obtain jobs, Gulen’s network, thanks to their closeted State Department ties, have been securing US work visas for Turkish and Turkic Republic citizens over there to come and teach at their charter schools here in the US. Some very interesting documented data on Gulen-based work visas provided to the Turkic individuals overseas here.


http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2010/10/20/did-you-know-the-king-of-madrasas-now-operates-over-100-charter-schools-in-the-us/


I also found this prior thread, and comments from both you and the OP rather illuminating...I had no idea the plot was being hatched from the Poconos...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8482846

[Hannah Bell]

87. 1. The various intelligence services' history of working with or through putatively

religious groups is extensively documented. The posting of a link speculating about such connections (from a turkish source, btw) is not an automatic mark of nuttery.

2. The article on the poconos -- "Muslim radical lives in the Poconos -- but it's not what you think" -- was from the Pocono Record, a newspaper from Northern Pennsylvania.

If you think they're a hotbed of freeperism & conspiracy theorism, take it up with them. It's your stomping ground, you can go right down there and talk to them.

For the record, it says nothing about gulen establishing a caliphate, in the poconos or anywhere else.

The article debunks some of the wilder claims about gulen's living situation & contains crazy attacks like this:

"None of the neighbors with whom the Pocono Record spoke said they had ever heard or seen what Williams described. Instead, they said they'd shared picnics with the center's residents, and had received visits from them after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

The Gülenists had knocked on their doors to apologize for what had been inflicted on innocents in the name of Islam. "You couldn't meet a nicer bunch of people," said Howard Beers Jr., a Ross Township supervisor who lives next door and enters the property six or seven days a week, often unannounced and not through the front gate, to do construction work."


And my comment on it had nothing to do with a caliphate either. It was, in its entirety:

"seems likely that gulen is a US-approved muslim cleric, given his recs from politicians, his visa & the spread of his followers' schools in the US."


But your comment is typical: misrepresenting the posts of charter school opponents.

[msanthrope]

89. "not an automatic mark of nuttery."

I miss the DUzys.

[jberryhill]

101. Do you object to research grants awarded to Notre Dame?

Yes or no.

[dsc]

127. it depends

what are the policies of Notre Dame in regards to gay students? If they accept them and treat them equally, despite being a Catholic university and also offer their women students and employees equal medical coverage to that of men, then frankly no. Otherwise, yes.

[dsc]

126. so if the schools banned gay people

or kids with gay parents, as religious schools in this country often do, but otherwise teach competently that would be OK with you?

[dsc]

133. kick for an answer

[Dappleganger]

8. Please go back and re-read what MF wrote.

This isn't an anti-muslim issue; it's an issue about not using our public tax dollars which should be going towards PUBLIC schools for RELIGIOUS schools.

Separation of church and state applies to all religions!

[jberryhill]

10. ...and what sort of religious instruction are these schools providing?

[madfloridian]

17. They should not be providing any with public money.

[jberryhill]

48. What sort of religious instruction are these schools providing?

[msanthrope]

51. What religious instruction are they providing? Can you answer that question? n/t

[defendandprotect]

22. Charter schools are far from "exemplary" -- !!! We need to support public education, not private ..

no matter who runs them ... whether the Rev. Moon or anyone else -- !

[Hannah Bell]

58. you miss the point entirely. and not all the gulen schools have "exemplary records".

[LiberalCatholic]

93. I believe in separation of church and state

I do not want my tax dollars going to support any religious school- Catholic, Jewish, Protestant or Muslim. Period!!!!!

[msanthrope]

107. Me too. So far, I and other posters have asked

what religious instruction is provided at Gulen schools, and we haven't gotten an answer.

Do the kids have to pray? Be Muslim?

[sulphurdunn]

130. Peace, mutual respecet and cultural coexistance?

If there's a single public school in the US that doesn't espouse those sentiments, please inform me of where it is. The problem isn't with platitudes or academic achievement. The problem is with public funding of charter schools with "vague" foreign, religious and governmental connections. There's also the little matter of importing foreign instructors and administrators to run them at public expense who then challenge domestic labor relations laws. Apparently, we're moving past privatization of public schools to their globalization without the consent of the people paying for them. I have a very big problem with that and so should you.

[Radical Activist]

4. Oh no! Muslims are part of the conspiracy too?!

“peace, mutual respect, the culture of coexistence.”

Well, that sounds devious.

[leftstreet]

6. Tax dollars shouldn't be going to ANY religious group

But then you know that

[Dappleganger]

9. Exactly!

It's not a matter of singling out any religious group--not ONE of them should be receiving our tax dollars!

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

21. "Given the OP's record..."

What record?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftstreet]

26. So you're saying it's a .... conspiracy?

:eyes:

[Dappleganger]

28. Where's your proof?

I have never seen this kind of activity. She posts facts with all kinds of proof, not baseless accusations. I have never ever seen mf try to 'bait' anyone or enlist someone else to get someone banned.

[madfloridian]

30. I must be accused of something awful

Maybe that's why I can't see the post. Must have happened before.

[Radical Activist]

39. Where's your proof

that tax dollars are funding a religious organization? There isn't any proof in the OP.

[madfloridian]

29. I can't see that post. What is the accusation about my record?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Hannah Bell]

59. "there's no evidence". what would constitute "evidence" to you?

if the checks said "here, buy some holy books with this tuition money"?

[Radical Activist]

92. How about any evidence that

money is being used to fund religious education or a religious organization? That's the issue isn't it? The OP fails to provide any such evidence.
The OP does nothing more than show that some schools may be influenced by a common educational philosophy. And I'm skeptical of even that until I see something from a credible source.

[Hannah Bell]

64. The leader of the gulenists isn't an educator, he's a preacher & "guru".

The 100+ schools identified as gulenist share structure, personnel, the habit of hiring most of their personnel from turkey, & financial ties, as well as ties to similar schools overseas.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

70. more straw. not full of "win" for you, just your usual spin. you just post a lot of slime & hope

something sticks.

[msanthrope]

81. Straw? That's info taken directly from the OP's links. Info she provided.

If it's 'slime' perhaps you might speak to the OP about her sourcing.

[Hannah Bell]

82. your spin, misinterpretation, & attempt to smear her by association.

[Radical Activist]

91. Spin and smear by association.

You're referring to the OP, right? That's all I'm seeing in that post.

[Hannah Bell]

131. no, i'm referring to the post that is now deleted by the mods.

[Radical Activist]

12. True, tax dollars should not support religious education.

Are religious courses or training part of the curriculum at these schools? Does religious philosophy influence the curriculum or teaching methods? If so, in what way?

I suspect these questions are not addressed because the answers would alarm no one.

[jberryhill]

31. You are correct

Arguing about charter schools is one thing.

However, this thing is framed as a "religious issue" because these schools, which engage in no religious instruction, are associated with this Turkish dude.

It is supposed to get us excited about what amounts to some Trans-Caucasus axe grinding and score settling.

[jberryhill]

32. Uh-huh... So if a paving company is owned by Mormons

Then they shouldn't get a contract to pave a road?

No, that's not how it works.

[leftstreet]

34. No for-profit contractor should be teaching ANY of our kids

Nor building our roads

:shrug:

[Radical Activist]

38. Chicago Math and Science Academy is non-profit.

So that's good news, but all roads in Illinois are built by private for-profit contractors.

[jberryhill]

43. Are you kidding?

How do government works get built where you live?

Your state has a "state building construction company" that employs people to sit around until a school needs to be built?

I don't like the whole charter school thing, but this fascination with Gullen isn't driven by any larger issue about anything.

[madfloridian]

41. There is a difference between paving roads and educating children.

Your statement is really odd.

[jberryhill]

44. Uh-huh... What religious instruction is conducted in these schools?

Again, if the argument is about charter schools, that's one thing.

But this business about Gullen is flacked here every week on DU, and the objection has utterly nothing to do with the problems of charter schools.

[Hannah Bell]

60. no, if it's owned or run by the mormon church, it shouldn't.

that used to be the rule: catholic schools e.g. couldn't get government funding.

that's the line you're blurring in your "owned by mormons" comment, & ed deform is blurring.

the gulen schools don't just appear to be owned or run by gulenists, they appear to be networked & ultimately controlled by the religious organization itself because of the networking, shared structure, shared personnel, etc.

[jberryhill]

84. You miss a distinction

"Catholic schools" afaik also provide religious instruction, and thus should not receive tax dollars. Again, my question, throughout this thread is "Are the schools providing religious instruction?"

What has been shown is that a number of charter schools have a connection to a person with certain religious beliefs.

That can be shown for ANY charter school. I am also certain that the superintendent of any public school can be shown to have religious beliefs.

There are reasons not to like charter schools. However, what has been shown is that a lawful activity is connected to someone having religious beliefs. What has not been shown is any connection between these beliefs and the instructional content of the schools.

[Hannah Bell]

113. nothing to do with religious beliefs or individuals in schools having them.

to do with funneling tax money to support religious institutions.

[jberryhill]

116. What is the "religious institution" at issue here

It seems to be that this "institution" consists of one person whose beliefs make certain Caucasians (in the classic sense) nervous.

If that is what it takes, then anyone with a religious or philosophical perspective of any kind is precluded from what is otherwise a lawful activity (one which I'm not a fan of, btw).

[madfloridian]

5. "participants aim to aid in the reform of Turkey’s power structure"

"Hendrick’s extensive ethnographic fieldwork and research seeks to explain the movement’s emergence as Turkey’s most influential nonpartisan, nonmilitary social force. His work also examines the ways in which its participants aim to aid in the reform of Turkey’s power structure in line with the interests of a new 21st century conservative Muslim elite."

We are funding schools that want to "reform" Turkey's power structure. I would say that is meddling with public money.

[leftstreet]

7. K&R

Excellent links

[westerebus]

11. So tax dollars to educate minority kids in charter schools is wrong?

I couldn't care less who administered or organized the charter schools if the kids are getting an education in a safe environment and the schools aren't ripping off the tax payer's. Money better spent than building another prison or funding a continuing war IMO.

Is your objection on separation of church and state grounds?

Or the opposition to unions by the charter schools?

Or lack of females on the board of directors?

Or is it that Gulen is a Sufi Muslim from Turkey?

[madfloridian]

14. Public schools lose money to charters when a child leaves.

If the charter schools drops the kid, the money does not return to the public school.

I object to just about all of the things you posted.

Except for the last one. I don't care what kind of muslim or Baptist or Methodist or Catholic. I don't want them getting public money.

You think these things are okay?

"I couldn't care less who administered or organized the charter schools if the kids are getting an education in a safe environment and the schools aren't ripping off the tax payer's. Money better spent than building another prison or funding a continuing war IMO. I care.

Is your objection on separation of church and state grounds? Yes.

Or the opposition to unions by the charter schools? Yes, I was union. I believe in unions for teachers.

Or lack of females on the board of directors? That, too.

You really accept most anything don't you?

Why not keep those tax dollars in public schools and educate all kids that way?

[westerebus]

40. I think kids need a good education.

I don't base that on teachers being unionized in public schools or private schools.

Men are just a competent as women as boards of directors, that's not a qualifier either.

Are the schools providing religious education? You haven't said they are. I think the dis qualifier is providing religious education. If they are not and they do provide a high standard of education that the public school is unable to provide, I see it as money better spent than building another prison.

As to money for funding public schooling, I support public education. I've paid property taxes for thirty years and have no children. I still think kids, every body's kids, need a good education. I'm selfish like that. With out good educations how are they going to get a good job so they can pay taxes too.

The failure of public education to serve minorities is not in great measure the fault of teachers or their unions. It is more the desperate nature of the community that educational systems are located in. Lack of funding due to low property values, high crime rates, broken families and lack of jobs in inner cities have more to do with educational funding than charter schools do. That's my opinion.

You will never get poor kids out of the cycle of poverty and prison if they aren't educated. What ever race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sex they might be.

If you have no objection to the religion associated with the Gulen charter school why is it so prominent in your list of talking points?

Are they teaching religion in their schools? If they are then they should not receive funding from taxpayer's.

If they are not a religious school and they met the need for a good education in the community they serve, I think it's money well spent.

[Hannah Bell]

69. Because the gulen schools are the biggest charter chain in the us; they're

run by a religious organization & one that's mostly foreign-based; their overseas schools are for-profit explicitly and the profit goes to religious uses; their us "schools" appear to be partly an immigration dodge, since most of their personnel are male turks hired on h1b visas.

gulen schools hire 1/3 of all hib's granted to primary & secondary education institutions & associated support institutions.

the "teaching religion" is a distraction. if public funds go to a religious organization in salaries, in rents, in curriculum, they're going to a religious organization. it doesn't matter if they're not explicitly teaching their religion.

Public monies are going to support organized religion.

[westerebus]

109. Explicitly teaching religion does matter.

Stop dancing around the question.

Are they teaching religion in their charter schools? Yes or No.

[madfloridian]

97. Public schools provide good education. It is propaganda that they don't.

And our own Democratic president is instrumental in destroying them.

[leftstreet]

19. What does their minority status have to do with anything?

:shrug:

[Dappleganger]

23. Thank you

[westerebus]

42. It was in the talking points of the poster.

Poor knows no distinction of race, religion, gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference.

The point being, all kids need a good education. In particular poor kids.

[defendandprotect]

25. Taxpayer dollars to educate rich or poor children in private schools is wrong ....

"Charter" is simply a euphemism for PRIVATE --

Nor should privatization of public schools be a new tool to destroy teachers'

salaries or their unions. In fact, American workers should be seeking similar

strength in unionizing.

[westerebus]

63. The rich can afford to send their kids anywhere they so choose.

So by your yard stick, Pell grants should be eliminated? Or ending State funded Universities that provide educational assistance to poor kids who are capable of doing the math, but don't have the funding to attend?

I endorse the need for unions. I was dues paying member of one for 20 plus years. Served as a shop stewart. Served as a Local VP.

This isn't about Unions as far as I'm concerned. It's about getting education to kids.

[Hannah Bell]

No, it's not. Five major studies have demonstrated that charter schools

don't "get education to kids" any better than comparative public schools. Thirty-seven percent of charters were found to do worse, 46% the same, & only 17% better.

And in the case of the "17% better" there are still significant differences -- in e.g. funding (i.e. the Harlem Children's Zone, for example, is funded on the same level that elite private schools are); in bureaucratic strictures -- e.g. KIPP schools counsel out more than 1/3 of their entering freshman class & don't have to admit replacements, but get to keep the funding of the kids who left.

It *is* about unions; a hell of a lot more than about educating kids.

Pell Grants & university assistance to low-income students = complete non-seq

[defendandprotect]

95. Agree... like every other "privatization" scam, this is about profit for the few ....

and LESS education for the many!

[westerebus]

110. If you lack the capacity to see the relationship

between funding a charter school or funding higher education by grants, both of which come from the tax payer's pocket, you should not be in the business of defending public education or public educators.

Dismissing the argument is less then honest. A disruptive tactic you've engaged in several times with in this OP.

[defendandprotect]

124. Let me be one of the first ....

to do what everyone else here should be doing ...

You're on ignore --

[defendandprotect]

94. Elites also work to destroy education for middle class and poor -- couldn't be more obvious ....

in what has been done to public education over the last decades --

often using "minorities" as the scapegoats to preserve "white" schools and

segregation.


So by your yard stick, Pell grants should be eliminated? Or ending State funded Universities that provide educational assistance to poor kids who are capable of doing the math, but don't have the funding to attend?

You are reflecting YOUR thoughts, not mine --

We have also for decades seen right wing destruction of the state universities and their ability

to support middle class and poor students -- and the corporatization of private universities

which the wealthiest have attended --and some of the middle class and the poor.

It takes a great deal of energy and manipulation to LIMIT education for the poor and the middle

class -- and we have seen that energy and manipulation at work to do so.

Destruction of our public education system did not come by accident.

Nor is what Obama/Duncan are doing by any means by accident!

This is a right wing agenda being carried out by a Democratic president -- and not

one of the only ones -- The Cat Food Commission is another example of it.


I endorse the need for unions. I was dues paying member of one for 20 plus years. Served as a shop stewart. Served as a Local VP.

This isn't about Unions as far as I'm concerned. It's about getting education to kids.

You're a "union" man and you think destruction of unions came by accident? :rofl:

Even if you didn't come to understand what took unionization from 39% down to now 7% or less

from the history of this nation, then certainly there have been many books and articles on the

very active campaign by the right wing to destroy unions using every and all means -- including

Mafia busting of unions!

Certainly the attack on schools is another waging of war not only on teachers and their status

in our communities but on their union -- one of the largest.

[westerebus]

112. You made a statement.

In response, I asked two questions.

I attempted to find where your thoughts on funding applied or did not apply.

Would you care to try again?

[defendandprotect]

125. US citizens are now totally FUNDING Charter/private schools as we fund

public education -- that should be stopped. It's a scam by corrupt government --

and sadly led now by Obama and Duncan.

As for loans to students who wish to attent private colleges, they are repaid.

Money for Charter schools is not repaid.

[westerebus]

132. FYI

Pell grants are not repaid. These are direct subsides based on economic need to people who have the academic ability but lack the funding to attend college. It is a very liberal idea.

The education children receive is repaid to the society in the form of citizenship and an educated work force. That too is a fairly liberal idea.

You might prefer building prisons with public money than spending public money to educate poor kids by means of charter schools. If you insist on being myopic, please keep me on ignore, you would be doing me a service.

[Starry Messenger]

15. k&r

I think it is wrong to allow tax money to go to any religious school too. I went to a parochial school as a tyke and I can't recommend it as an educational system. I've spent most of my adult life unlearning many things.

[madfloridian]

16. My goodness.

What an outrage because I believe in separation of church and state.

You would think I said something really awful.

So this is what we have become. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

27. What you said is what should be said .... those who chose not to protect separation of

church and state will protect little of our Constitutional rights --

Though the poster seemed to be purposefully misrepresenting this OP --

HOWEVER, what we have become is WORSE rather than BETTER under Obama administtration

and I'm seriously worried looking at the damage done in two years as to what the

next two years of damage could bring!!

Can we really take another two years of this?

[madfloridian]

108. Yes, there seems to be more blending of church and state now.

The faith based groups are not restrained at all now, with funds being allowed to go directly to churches under faith based initiatives.

[LWolf]

115. I guess Democrats don't support the establishment clause anymore.

:(

[defendandprotect]

18. When are we going to notice that our entire government is gone -- bought out???

Agree with you on the funding for religion --

Bush got away with pushing "faith based" subsidies with taxpayer money and got away

with it -- coincidentally, just at the time the Vatican needed money to pay their

pedophile law suits. And, obama has kept this treason going -- and has increased the funding!

It is wrong to have taxpayer money going into ANY private hands.

We need to wake up to the bailouts being one of the largest financial coups ever pulled off.

We have criminals running our government and no opposition from our millionaire and

multi-millionaire members of Congress!

Why would we expect change?


:)

[Bozita]

20. How long until drug cartels open for-profit charters on the taxpayers' dime?

They've got a lot of potential start-up money.

And we do know exactly what "for-profit" means.

[defendandprotect]

99. Well. . . as I recall, Obama has just put a bank CEO in charge of OBM ....!!!!!

Think he is former Citibank or Bank of America? -- One of the bigger ones --

This should now facilitate the flow of drug money throughout government for

speedier and easier laundering!!!


:evilgrin:

[madfloridian]

35. Explain the "transnational religious nationalism" mentioned in OP. Why should we fund it?

I just did a google search, and I am not at all sure I have a clue what it is....and why my taxpayer money should fund it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=transnational%20religious%20nationalism&hl=en&safe=off&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=bw

[madfloridian]

37. Religious nationalism? Isn't that what we should be warned against?

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

47. You'd think that people in Oklahoma would have noticed if they were /nt

[msanthrope]

49. Nah--the CIA's been covering for them....

Seriously, this thread has it all---

According to the links provided by the OP, Gulen is part of a CIA/State Department conspiracy to bring Sharia law to America. Oh, and the overthrow of the Turkish government is being plotted by a Sufi cleric in the Poconos....

Jeebus.

[jberryhill]

52. Oh, you didn't know?

Sibel Edmonds figured it all out during her stint at the FBI.

[msanthrope]

55. Busy three months, eh? n/t

[defendandprotect]

96. But, male-supremacist religion has never been used as a tool of elites?

All of history shows that it has been -- and is still being used in that manner!

This is about motives for the destruction of public education -- and there are many.

[westerebus]

57. The CIA is the anti-illuminati.

Run from the Vatican's core intel group Opus Dei, which has a seat at all Bildenberg meetings, that's your connection.

;-)

[msanthrope]

61. I need to remember that it's "shiny side out.."

:tinfoilhat:

Then I would have been able to see the connections....

[westerebus]

66. I knew you knew.

:rofl:

[westerebus]

71. Great quote from Savio by the way.

[Hannah Bell]

65. mmmmm...straw! plus the attempt to associate the OP with freepers. a rules violation, i believe.

[msanthrope]

72. Straw? I posted a link from the OP's own journal. Something she posted as 'proof.'

And posting links from Free Republic is a rule violation???

Then how the hell are we going to make fun of Orly Taitz?

[Hannah Bell]

76. Civility

[westerebus]

75. Using the same source of information is a rules violation?

My, my.

I'd like to play, but I'm off to work.

[Hannah Bell]

77. The poster had no links to free republic. Nor does her concern with the gulen

schools have anything to do with islam or sharia law.

The article she linked is originally from the blog Charter School Scandals, & the material on CIA links is translated from a major Turkish paper.

The poster misrepresents the OP's intent, motives, and content, & attempts to discredit the poster by comparing her to freepers & labeling her a conspiracy theorist.

[msanthrope]

86. Which is why I didn't quote Free Republic. I quoted the OP's own journal.

I merely noted that the same sentiments--that the government was funding Gulen, and protecting him through the CIA--were a meme at Free Republic.

Which might suggest that a little self-reflection might be in order...generally, when one finds one's views regarding Muslim clerics echoed at Free Republic, one might want to step back and think about one's bedfellows.

[Hannah Bell]

88. oh, bullshit. done with your crap.

[msanthrope]

90. Is this the "Civility" you promised in post #76? n/t

[westerebus]

114. The burden is on the poster of the OP to defend herself due to her poor choice of words.

I had to ask what her objections were as did others.

I have yet to see anyone imply the poster is a freeper.

I certainly don't think she is.

My first reaction to the posting was to question what her objections were.

The inference that the charter schools were Muslim in nature are not just my take on the OP.

Or if they were religious in nature as implied by the reference to Gulen movement.

Yet in other posts the reference to Muslims, CIA, State Department, and Turkey are in her OP that address the subject of the Gulen movement so there is a link between them.

As the reference to the tin foil hat was directed to me, I'm not objecting. Shiny side up.

[madfloridian]

117. I gave my objections clearly.

I do not believe public money should go to religious schools. Yes, the Gulen schools are considered religious...even the speaker at the Baker forum agreed.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but I go to no church now because of such a bad experience with Baptists.

I resent that I am being accused of being anti-muslim, which is ridiculous.

Actually when I see the way our government is handling the faith-based groups, when I see so many religious groups openly running charter schools to get tax money....I am not especially enamored of any religion right now.

[msanthrope]

120. Objections, yes. But with no proof of any religious instruction at all.

You've been asked to provide examples of how Gulen-owned schools teach religion. You haven't been able to prove that Gulen owns any schools, or, that they teach Islam.

And not for anything, but the Baker forum hasn't happened yet. Check the date.

[westerebus]

123. Can we go back to shiny side up?

I thought that was funny.

Any way 2012 is not that far off.

The return of the mother ship and if we are really unlucky, disco.

:P

[westerebus]

121. May I suggest a good copy editor.

As a good friend said: a saved Baptist will put the hungriest of mules off their feed.

I understand the context and am not at odds with you.

I do understand your passion for your profession and your zeal to defend it.

You are well spoken enough to make your case. Incitement to cause distress is not your strong point.

I think your zeal to find reasons (plural) got ahead of your logic. I do it all the time.

And having painted myself into a corner on occasion, I don't find it surprising others do as well.

And no, I don't think you are anti Muslim.

Reasonable people can have reasonable disagreements.

[madfloridian]

122. "Incitement to cause distress is not your strong point."

I have no idea what you mean by that. I don't think I want to know.

[Little Star]

74. Mad, Thank you for this post. Some of us can.....

recognize a slippery slope when we see one.

[starroute]

79. It's not about the religion -- it's about the politics

One problem I have with all this is the secretiveness and the attempts by the Gulen movement to deny their connection to the schools. That's disconcerting and is far too reminiscent of the many front groups used by the Reverend Moon's empire.

Another is that the movement seems to be religiously moderate but deeply conservative on the political level. There is something going on here that I see also in the New York City charter school controversies, and which I would describe as an attempt by conservative elites to take over all institutions which are perceived as centers of liberal idealism and either replace or muzzle them.

The unions are under attack, the schools are under attack, and poverty groups like ACORN are under attack. And if we don't wake up to that as a concerted effort and push back against it, we as progressives are going to find ourselves on a shrinking island without allies or financial resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen

In the Turkish context Gülen appears relatively conservative and religiously observant. For example, he supports that women veil themselves, whilst his female followers usually wear headscarves. ...

Comparing Gülen to leaders in the Nur movement, Hakan Yavuz said, "Gülen is more Turkish nationalist in his thinking. Also, he is somewhat more state-oriented, and is more concerned with market economics and neo-liberal economic policies." His pro-business stance has led some outsiders to dub his theology an Islamic version of Calvinism. Oxford Analytica says:

"Gülen put Nursi's ideas into practice when he was transferred to a mosque in Izmir in 1966. Izmir is a city where political Islam never took root. However, the business and professional middle class came to resent the constraints of a state bureaucracy under whose wings it had grown, and supported market-friendly policies, while preserving at least some elements of a conservative lifestyle. Such businessmen were largely pro-Western, because it was Western (mainly U.S.) influence, which had persuaded the government to allow free elections for the first time in 1950 and U.S. aid, which had primed the pump of economic growth."

His teachings differ in emphasis from those of other mainstream, moderate Islamic scholars in two respects, both based on his interpretations of particular verses of the Qur'an: he teaches that the Muslim community has a duty of service (Turkish: hizmet)<24> to the “common good” of the community and the nation <25> and to Muslims and non-Muslims all over the world <26>; also, the Muslim community is obliged to conduct interfaith dialogue with the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians).

[Hannah Bell]

83. +100. Thank you for bringing up an important point:

The "attempt by conservative elites to take over all institutions which are perceived as centers of liberal idealism and either replace or muzzle them".

That's a biggie, and interestingly it mirrors events in europe circa mid-1920s onward.

[madfloridian]

98. Yes, we are funding a movement to change another government.

Whether good or bad is not our decision to make.

[msanthrope]

105. So now we overthrowing Turkey through our charter schools?

Which side are we on? AKP, or the military?

[fascisthunter]

100. there is way too much misinterpretation of the OP on this Thread

Good post btw....

[madfloridian]

102. Interesting article from the AZ Star Net

http://azstarnet.com/news/blogs/senor-reporter/article_41e34294-6aae-11df-93fe-001cc4c03286.html

"It took me a while to verify that the translation I received (linked here under "related stories") was accurate. And by doing so, I unintentionally pointed the story out to the movement, who took the piece down from its site. Here's the key paragraph, which cites a conversation the writer, Nazli Ilicak, had with others:

We discussed the subject among ourselves: If 600 schools are bought this way in the United States – and that’s what the members of the Gulen movement are striving to do, - and if 200 students graduate from each one of these schools, then 120 thousand sympathizers of Turkey join the mainstream out there every year. We are trying to lobby against the Armenian genocide resolution every year. And yet, through education, we can teach tens of thousands of people the Turkish language and our national anthem, introduce them to our culture and win them over. And this is what the Gulen movement is striving for.

This I found interesting because it seems to reveal what many people in the U.S. suspect, that the Gülen-aligned charter schools in the U.S. are working to create pro-Turkish Americans through U.S. charter schools. The schools' unusually high use of teachers from Turkey was the subject of a story I wrote in April"

At the link to the Perimeter Primate, the blogger herself made an interesting comment.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3359348507190689090&postID=2233342440354886835&isPopup=true

"What about supporting 122 "Sun Myung Moon-inspired" charter schools that had been established under the radar of Americans, where kids were taught Korean, encouraged to particpate in Moonie organization-sponsored Korean language competitions, and taken on a Moonie-guided trips to South Korea?

What if in order to deceive charter school authorizers, these types of connections and activities were intentionally not included, or were disclosed in a very duplicitous way, in the charter school applications? What if these connections never appeared on websites and were never disclosed to prospective parents?

Would such activity on the part of the charter school operators produce any public outrage?

November 20, 2010 7:19 AM"

That stuff is going on all over the country.

Pastors are starting charter schools quite openly now. We are accepting that there is little transparency.

I am actually being attacked for showing the lack of oversight about where taxpayer money is going for education.

My words are misrepresented deliberately.

[dembotoz]

103. i do not want my tax dollars going to a parocial school period.

and perhaps the only way to stop it is to get their republican supporters to turn on the parochial
schools. If it means slamming one of these schools by saying it is osama bin ladin tech.
OK by me. Does this make me evil and flame bait?
Flame away--i can take it.
In milwaukee, school choice is sucking public schools dry by diverting public tax money to church schools. This could be fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[msanthrope]

106. "osama bin ladin tech?"

Really? Is that what you want to resort to?

Look, I agree with you that no money for parochial schools...and I've asked the OP to cite what religious instruction these schools do.

And I still haven't gotten an answer.

[dembotoz]

128. i live in crazy funky republican land

if this can get them to eat their own young....can not say i would be opposed.

[KamaAina]

104. So Fox will now be coming out against charter schools?

Or is it "IOKIYSIC" (It's OK If Your School Is Christian)?

[happi1]

111. tl;dr

Will look at this later

:-)

[McCamy Taylor]

118. This is what the Founders warned against. State trying to get its fingers into religion.

If the state decides to promote a certain type of Islam---what the author describes as "moderate" then they are going directlt against the Constitutional injunction against an alliance of Church and state. The Founders were not so worried about tax moneys going to Churches as they were that the state would use its tax moneys to bribe or force Churches to act in the best interest of politicians rather than Church members.

What is one Muslim's "moderate" Islam, could be another Muslim's heretical Islam. What kind of country will we be if the feds decide which form of Islam our Muslims can follow? The kind of government that might also force Christians to accept a single denomition which is best for big business? Maybe religions that prohibit alcohol and tobacco could be done away with it the insistence of Grover Norquist's tobacco and alcohol lobby?

[defendandprotect]

129. k