RE: Micheal Vick, any ex con who has done his time, then is able to contribute to society . . .

[wndycty]

. . .is good news.

I know this will anger a lot of people, but its true. When someone is convicted of a crime, accepts responsibility, does his or her time we should celebrate when they find themselves on the path to success.

Do we want permanent criminals? Do we want want to hand a career death sentence for crimes that are not deemed worthy of a real death sentence?

Who the hell are we? What do we stand for?

I know Vick is a millionaire and a celebrity and that angers a lot of you. Tough. Seriously, tough.

He has shown contrition, he has suffered enough and is trying to earn a second chance at life. Listen to his interviews, read about the changes he is making in his life. He deserves a second chance. Nothing is being handed to him, he is working hard for this.

Given the number of African American men who are incarcerated, and being an African American male myself, I want to see Vick being successful.

Another hope I have is that others who are incarcerated can look at Vick for inspiration and will try to do the right thing when the get out.

That might anger you, but if Michael Vick's fall from grace and efforts to redeem himself has a positive impact on others then "Go Michael Go."

When criminals return to society we should want to see them succeed, not as a reward but as a form of public safety. An ex con without a way to make a living, will most likely return to crime. Do any of you guys understand what recidivism is and its horrible impact on inner city communities?

Vick is a football player and as long as he can play and there is a demand for his services he should be allowed to play. Lets not forget the NFL has him under a microscope.

Vick deserved to go to jail, he deserved to lose his career, he deserved all of the scorn directed at him. But after doing his time, he deserves the opportunity to earn it back. He still has a long way to go but I am pulling for him.

[katandmoon]

1. He is a piece of shit as far as I'm concerned. A big stinking piece of shit.

And he ALWAYS will be.

[madmax]

3. +1

[wndycty]

5. And he went to prison for being a piece of shit, he lost his job for being a piece of shit. . .

. . .he went bankrupt for being a piece of shit.

So you should be happy.

[katandmoon]

24. A tiny slap on the wrist for the harm he did, and what he did is, to me, permanently unforgiveable.

[wndycty]

29. Can you tell me how much time others convicted of the same crime have done. . .

. . .you call it a slap on the wrist so I assume you an expert as to what the sentencing norms are.

Go ahead, tell me.

[flvegan]

100. I recently sent a dogfighter to prison for 5+ years. I also took his house

and his property away from him. Although it truly is racially insignificant, he's white.

The last African-American I did the same favor for only got a year. Shame how the locals won't testify.

[mandy11]

105. Thank you for all the work you do.

I hold my pup and just can't imagine the crimes and justifications.

[TexasObserver]

113. Are you a judge?

Or are you referring to some kind of volunteer work you do with animals with some connection to a criminal case?

Unless you're a judge, can you say you sent someone to prison? The prosecutor decides if there is a case, and they try it before a judge, who decides sentence, unless that role is given to the jury.

If you mean you were one of the people who helped the police or prosecutor make a case, perhaps you should say that instead of "I recently sent a dogfighter to prison ...."

[flvegan]

132. Considering

that the head of animal control's investigations unit said that the entire case was mine to begin with (in both cases)...I'll let my words stand. Thanks for your concern though.

[TexasObserver]

211. In other words, no, you're a volunteer who assisted those who prosecuted the case.

Please reconsider your need to take credit for something done by those who prosecuted the case or judged it.

[flvegan]

257. Your concern is so noted, it's in the Noted Concern Hall of Fame.

[TexasObserver]

311. Your delusion is noted, in the Delusion Hall of Fame.

It's right there beside your award for thinking that filling out forms for a house closing makes you a real estate lawyer.

[Catherina]

237. Thanks for sending that scum to jail Flyvegan n/t

[wndycty]

124. Thanks for your feedback, another question. . .

. . .you gave two examples, but what is the norm, especially as it relates to charges that Vick was convicted on?

[flvegan]

133. I don't think there is a norm.

Every state has different laws. Most dogfighters get busted for multiple charges, many have priors. Sentences vary.

[wndycty]

140. I think his charges were federal

Does that give us any kind of guidance.

Also, in the example you gave above the guy got five years. Did he have priors? Vick didn't.

I appreciate your input and experience and since people Vick should have done more time I want to know what the standards are for others who are convicted of what he is convicted of.

[Dr.Phool]

298. These guys thank you!

Actually, the white one is a female.

[KittyLover]

111. Don't know exactly.

However, I would be willing to bet the meager amount I have in my pocket that if you, I, or Kat did the same thing, we'd STILL be in jail/prison, and would probably be on extended probation when we got out. It's true that the guy did some time, lost money, etc, but where is he know. Living every young man's dream in the NFL making who the hell knows how much, (too much) and working on cementing his name in the NFL history books!!

This kind of life is NOT what he deserves!

[katandmoon]

153. This isn't about "others" - this is about Michael Vick, If you feel his "punishment" is sufficient

and this poor widdle oh so sorry (sorry he got caught that is) dog torturer/killer has suffered enough by spending a few months in prison before he went back to raking in millions of dollars for playing a fucking ball game, compared to other dog torturer/killers who got even smaller slaps on the wrist than he did, then YOU do the research so you can increase your outrage over the unfair treatment of the abusive Michael Vick. I'll save MY outrage for the dogs who deserve it, the innocent dogs whose lives he took and ruined, not a sorry excuse for a human being like Michael Vick.

[cleanhippie]

171. I sure hope that if you ever find yourself in legal trouble, you are shown the same respect you have

given.

The next time you break the law, you will never be forgiven, ever. Is that the world you want to live in?

[katandmoon]

191. Save it for somebody else who doesn't think Michael Vick is a worthless POS.

[cleanhippie]

206. Like I said, is that the kind of world you want to live in?

I am really glad you are not running the show. What a horrible world it would be if we lived by your ideals.

[Scout]

210. i don't want to live in the kind of world where pieces of shit like Michael Vick

are hero-worshipped and forgiven for heinous acts of torture and cruelty which he performed repeatedly for his own enjoyment.

too bad for me seems like those kind of scumbags are running the show.

[cleanhippie]

215. We don't live in that world either.

We operate in the system we have. That system demanded a price and he paid is. What more is there to do?

[Scout]

221. we don't?

"hero-worshipped and forgiven for heinous acts of torture and cruelty which he performed repeatedly for his own enjoyment"

so this isn't happening in this world that we live in?

[cleanhippie]

246. That is a subjective opinion, not always reality.

I understand the point you are trying to make. But I think you are conflating the two areas.

[Arugula Latte]

207. Oh, boohoo, he lost his job and went to prison and went bankrupt

Now that piece of crap is back making millions.

Fuck him. I hope he gets a massive injury on the field and is disabled for life.

[Pisces]

216. Wow, be careful what you put out into the universe. Wishing such ill on someone is never good.

[SammyWinstonJack]

259. He is solely responsible for being a piece of shit, no one forced that upon him.

So he should be happy about that.

[AlabamaLibrul]

284. He got his cushy, megabucks job back pretty quickly. More like suspended without pay. n/t

[emilyg]

33. +100

[hlthe2b]

53. +++++++

[cleanhippie]

167. Are you some kind of fecal matter expert or what?

[katandmoon]

193. Michael Vick = big stinking piece of violent dog killing shit.

[cleanhippie]

204. Yeah, I got that the first time. So what are you, a fecal matter expert?

[TexasObserver]

220. Apparently, that is a huge factor in this thread.

When it comes to animals, some humans are not very rational.

There is a subset of humans who actually like animals more than they like humans, and their attitudes and actions are consistent with that. That is why there is no forgiveness, no acceptance that a sentence has been meted out and served.

Others are more oriented toward humans. They think that compassion begins and ends with human compassion. What he did was terrible, but he was prosecuted and convicted, and served his time. He's not got any "do overs" left. If he screws up again, he'll be sent away again.

The virulence with which "animal lovers" express their anger is disturbing. People who elevate animals above humans have misplaced priorities.

[smiley]

227. and people who elevate themselves above animals...

are just arrogant

[TexasObserver]

231. People who elevate themselves above animals are sane.

Unless one never kills any living thing (snakes, rats, mosquitoes, ants), attitudes about animals are largely limited to concern about the animals one favors.

Do you care as much about a possum as you do a cat?

Do you care as much about a spider as you do a dog?

Many "animal lovers" have a short list of animals they love and a long list of animals that don't matter.

Humans are animals, and they deserve at least as much respect as pets.

[smiley]

234. Humans are animals

Simple as that.

I hunt and fish - but I also have an honest love and respect for all animals. Just because we got these big brains doesn't make us any better. What it does mean is we have more of a responsibility to take care of all of our fellow animals (humans and all).

[TexasObserver]

241. Yes, that's what I posted. "Humans are animals."

As animals, we claim dominion over the things we need to claim dominion over in order to live.

Just as a wasp will sting you for coming too near its home, humans will kill wasps for being too near their home. I will always take the human's side of that conflict.

I agree that one can love animals and still kill them for food or protection of one's family or community.

I don't disagree with you that we are stewards who must not waste animal lives, or be mean to them. I find some common uses of animals offensive. Dog fighting is one of the worst, but dressing dogs up like children is also offensive. Caging tropical animals and making them one's pets is highly offensive. How can anyone who keeps caged birds justify it? How can anyone who keeps a horse in a stall without open access to a paddock justify it? There are many animal owners whose conduct is abusive to animals, but most get a pass.

[smiley]

243. I agree with you on everything you said.

But my "virulent" anger at Vick stems from being a dog owner. A dog who I treat very much the same way I would treat a child. (except I don't dress him up in human clothes):-)

I suspect someone who was a horse lover would have much the same contempt for the person that mistreats a horse.

[TexasObserver]

244. I'm appalled at the mistreatment of animals.

Dog fighting is one of the most heinous practices, but canned hunts are equally offensive. And shooting them from helicopters for fun?! Inhumane and unspeakable.

My big issue is the use of tropical animals as pets, whether they're snakes, lizards, monkeys or birds. Also, hate all forms of trophy hunting. If the meat is not harvested and used by someone, hunting is morally wrong. Ethical hunting requires use of the animal, and proper respect for it, even though killed.

I appreciate animals most in their natural environment, and believe that's where they belong.

[cleanhippie]

247. No, that makes them human.

[COLGATE4]

239. K&R X 1000!

[Mad_Dem_X]

170. A-MEN!

The Eagles lost me as a fan when they signed this SOB. They're doing very well now, but as I said to my husband, "You make a deal with the Devil, eventually he's gonna come to collect."

[AndrewP]

304. +1

[nc4bo]

2. I agree. eom.

[madmax]

13. No argument here.

POS, Scumbag. Right down there with pedophiles. Would we cut them any slack because 'they paid their debt to society'. HELL NO. They register as sex offenders for life, as it should be.

Vick is a vile, heartless bastard and he'll get no redemption from thousands if not millions of people.

Fuck him, in his next life he should get ripped apart by a pack of wolves but, it should last for 1000 days.

[liquid diamond]

186. That's quit a stretch comparing dog fighting to pedophilia.

They were just dogs.

[smiley]

230. just dogs?...

:mad:

[madmax]

260. May I join you...

:mad:

[CreekDog]

251. i wouldn't want him around children either

people who harm animals...

[Lucian]

4. You're just trying to justify liking him...

and you want to feel less guilty about cheering him on.

He's a big piece of shit who hasn't gotten punished yet, as far as I'm concerned.

[wndycty]

7. LOL I really don't need to justify shit to you. I have an uncle who went to prison. . .

. . .my best friend had both his mother and brother go to prison.

Pulling for them when they get out is all we can do.

[Lucian]

12. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[cleanhippie]

173. Well then, I guess we should be glad we don't rely on your concern

to judge people for their crimes.

I would hope that if you ever found yourself in legal trouble, you would expect everyone to treat you just like this, forever to be scorned and never to be forgiven. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

[Lucian]

187. What he did to those animals was unforgivable.

As far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't give the same leniency to child molesters, rapists, or murderers.

The only way he can repent for his crimes, as far as I'm concerned, is to be caged with rabid dogs and have them attack him while people bet to see how long he can last before begging for mercy.

[cleanhippie]

208. No, what he did was not forgettable.

I should never be forgotten what he did. He should be forgiven.

[Lucian]

212. He's a piece of crap who deserves no forgiveness.

If one of us were to do what he did, we'd be punished more severely than he had.

This whole talk of forgiveness for Michael Vick is just to ease everyone's guilt for rooting for him in the NFL. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

[cleanhippie]

218. Well, thats your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

[CatWoman]

6. thank you

i'm so fucking sick of the "i can't forgive vick" threads.

american justice has been served.

time to leave the man alone.

to share something about me: I grew up in Virginia, not far from where Vick is from. I hate but understand that culture. but that doesn't mean I condone it.

However, the man was tried, sentenced, and served his time.

He deserves to make a living just like the rest of us.


End of story.

[madmax]

28. 'However, the man was tried, sentenced, and served his time. '

Same with pedophiles but they don't get to on to earn a living, or even live in some places. Should we 'forgive' them too? No. I can't forgive some for hurting, using, or abusing an innocent or one who is completely unable to defend themselves at all. Children and animals.

I'm not trying to be snarky but, Cat - you seem to love cats. If he were using cats as bait, would you feel the same way. Just asking - not snarky.

[superduperfarleft]

147. "He deserves to make a living just like the rest of us."

LOL. It's not like he's working in a factory somewhere. He gets paid millions of dollars a year to throw a ball around. Unlike "the rest of us," his bankruptcy is going to be a little blip on his radar as opposed to a financially crippling event. If "the rest of us" had criminal records, we'd be begging to get a job washing dishes.

Doesn't sound much like he's making a living "like the rest of us."

[TexasObserver]

8. I agree. He did his time. He's back in society. He's not killing dogs.

[jonnyblitz]

9. would you be this concerned about him if he were white? nt

[TexasObserver]

11. Would you?

[jonnyblitz]

hell fucking no. I am gay and I would despise a gay person

who butchered dogs.

[TexasObserver]

109. So, it's appropriate for you to ask the OP that, but not ok for you to be asked?

You implied that the OP's reason for speaking up for Vick is racial, then act outraged when the same question is asked of you.

[Bluebear]

112. He answered your question without outrage, actually. nt

[TexasObserver]

114. He was outraged about being asked.

He implicitly accused the OP of being racist for supporting Vick's right to the benefits of paying his debt to society. He then got mad when I asked him if race played a role with his position.

It's not ok for him to accuse the OP of racism, and it's not ok for him to be outraged when asked the same question he asked the OP.

[Bluebear]

115. 'I am gay and I would despise a gay person who butchered dogs.'

Doesn't sound outraged at being asked to me, but YMMV. Carry on! :)

[TexasObserver]

116. "Hell, fucking no" sounds outraged at being asked.

The issue is race, not orientation. He introduced race, and that's what I asked him about.

I don't consider anyone's orientation a factor in this topic, and it isn't.

My point is simple. If he wants to imply the OP is acting based upon race, maybe he should take a look at his own point of view. There's a reason America divided by race lines in OJ's case. That reason is blacks are held to a higher standard by whites when it comes to crimes, and that's why they go to prison at a much higher rate.

[cleanhippie]

174. +1

[CatWoman]

14. the better question is - would he have gone to jail if he was white?

[wndycty]

18. A la Ben Roethlisberger who has been accused of sexual assault many times. . .

. . .but has yet to be charged.

[Orrex]

35. FWIW, I live in the Pittsburgh area

And I know many more people who hate Roethlisberger than like him.

They support him insofar as he's the QB of the home team. But as a person, he's fairly widely disliked.

[wndycty]

42. But as whole your don't see the passionate disdain for Roethlisberger that you do Vick. . .

. . .btw thanks for the report from Pittsburgh. . .its good to hear the local opinion.

[Missy Vixen]

45. Oh, really?

Ask the majority of females who watch the NFL how they feel about Roethlisberger.

It's unfortunate he and Vick didn't share the same cell.

[Orrex]

51. The fact that he hasn't been charged is a real problem

I'm not saying that he's guilty, but the fact that the cases were dropped under seemingly dubious circumstances leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

Vick, in contrast, was tried and convicted; his crimes are documented and a matter of public record. Most of Roethlisburger's bullshit remains off the public radar. For now.

[wndycty]

And unlike Roethlisburger he paid his price to society. . .

. . .right?

[Orrex]

71. Yes, but see my earlier point about public opinion

Vick, like anyone who's repaid his legal debt to society, thereafter needs to regain the public's trust (if he wants that trust, of course).


The average dog-owner, for instance, probably wouldn't let Vick take care of those dogs for the weekend. Forgiveness takes time.

[MellowDem]

245. That's a bad comparison...

because he wasn't charged. If he was, then it would be a more accurate comparison. As it is, Ben is not liked or respected at all due to those dropped charges.. The only problem is that, under the system we have, you would have to say that you hate Ben for a crime he was never charged with, or in essence, saying he's guilty before proven innocent. Of course it is fine to have that opinion, but since there is an element of uncertainty, it's not at all the same as the very well documeted crimes of Vick, what with pictures and detailed descriptions to set the emotions of people aflame.

[jonnyblitz]

20. if he were rich and connected probably not.

you know. I am done with this. this is SICK. really fucking SICK.

[ProudDad]

84. Rich and white -- probably not...

Poor and white -- probably would have done more time...

[KittyWampus]

148. Not a good argument when it comes to professional athletes. They get away with so much-

black or white or brown. As long as they're playing and important to the franchise.

Rape, murder, drugs. It all gets swept under the rug with money.

Personally, I'm ambivalent about Vick and professional sports players in general.

There a few shining examples and a lot of abusive assholes who exemplify the term "arrested development".

[wndycty]

15. WTF? Damn, go ahead spell it out what are you accusing me of?

Go right a head.

[marmar]

134. Where did that come from?

nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

159. Maybe from the OP?

"Given the number of African American men who are incarcerated, and being an African American male myself, I want to see Vick being successful. "

Just a guess. :shrug:

[marmar]

179. Umm, that doesn't mean he wouldn't want it for someone else, n'est-ce pas?

[wndycty]

224. Have you taken the time to read the responses in which I responded. . .and explained why I said it?

Or do you just want to take this conversation/thread in a direction that I didn't intend it to?

Its your choice.

[Dappleganger]

10. Enough of this poor Michael Vick busllshit.

[Orrex]

16. Having fulfilled his debt to society doesn't grant him immunity to public opinion

The fact is that he chose to throw a once-in-a-lifetime brass ring down the toilet for the opportunity to torture and kill a bunch of dogs.

Many people who have not been able to secure hundred-million-dollar endorsement deals are understandably reluctant to offer him the glad hand now that he's been handed a second chance at that brass ring.


In addition, Vick's enormous wealth enabled him to defend himself in court in a way that very few people are able to do. There is no reasonable basis by which we can liken him to the impoverished African American kid who gets jail time for stealing an iPod.

[wndycty]

21. You are entitled to that opinion, but you should also UNDERSTAND why some of us. . .

. . .would support him.

We definitely understand why you hate him.

[Orrex]

31. I understand why some would support him

Honestly, the fact that he's African American doesn't have that much bearing on it for me.

I'm much more angered because he was a rich guy who thought that he could do anything with no consequences. He will likely get another chance to be a rich guy--let's see if he has truly learned about consequences.

[wndycty]

38. I raised the issue of race for a simple reason. . .

. . .we tend to care more about ex offenders than society at large for a number of reasons:

1) Many of us have ex offenders in our families

2) Ex offenders return to the community and if they are not given an opportunity at a second chance the entire community suffers.

3) It is my hope that Vick will serve as a role model to others who are incarcerated who want a second chance at life. 99.9% of them won't become millionaires but a lot of them could make something of their lives.

I raised the issue of race to help others understand why African Americans tend to be more supportive of ex offenders.

[Orrex]

48. I can see that, but...

I'm honestly surprised that it works out that way.

Vick was a well-connected, super-wealthy man who was tried and convicted for vile and monstrously brutal crimes and who ultimately got a pretty light sentence for it all. He lost most of his wealth, sure, but we'll see if that wealth stays lost.

I have trouble seeing how that relates in any way to a low-income man who lands in jail because his public defender can't cut the mustard in a judicial system that's statistically stacked against African Americans. Vick isn't a disadvantaged youth who got screwed by the system; he's a celebrity who got off with a comparative slap on the wrist.

The disparity between Vick's and the average man's circumstances would seem to weigh very heavily upon how he is regarded post-release, and I'm surprised to learn otherwise. I don't dispute it, but I'm still surprised by it.

[wndycty]

52. Because as African Americans we know that race trumps wealth. . .

. . .you show me a wealthy Black man accused of crime, I will show you someone still vulnerable to racism.

Black folks without money don't resent anyone with money, the same way white folks without money do.

[Orrex]

66. Whoa. Now that's interesting.

Of course, Vick wasn't merely accused of a crime; he's been convicted and sentenced.

Still, I suppose I see your point. One thing, though:

Black folks without money don't resent anyone with money, the same way white folks without money do.

It must be stipulated that moneyless white folks don't resent wealthy people simply because they're wealthy. They resent wealthy people who act like an entitled and untouchable elite.

I absolutely don't dispute that racism is a major part of it (hell, I hear bullshit like that nearly every day of the week), but it's not the only part.

[wndycty]

75. Point taken

:kick:

[smiley]

233. OJ

[Llewlladdwr]

238. Okay, now THIS is racist.

"Black folks without money don't resent anyone with money, the same way white folks without money do."

Are you seriously making the case that there are NO poor black people who resent the rich but that ALL poor whites do?

Wow....

[nonconformist]

107. This really isn't a race thing, as much as you try to make it one.

It's a "nature of the crime" thing.

There are a handful of "taboo" things that a person can do that will change others perception of that person forever. The biggest one being a person that hurts the most vulnerable in society.

Let me ask you this, and be honest: Imagine a man, a strong fit man. Race not important... picture him white. Or picture him as some complex mix of white, black, Asian and Hispanic. Race doesn't matter. Now picture that man punching another man dead in the face, hard. Now picture him punching a woman dead in the face, hard. Now picture him punching an elderly person dead in the face, hard. Now picture him punching a toddler dead in the face, hard.

Now, all of those actions are bad. They're all illegal. But don't you have a stronger reaction to hearing about someone hurting someone who can't possibly defend themselves? Who can't even possibly "deserve" it? That's part of what makes us human. We have an intrinsic desire to protect those who are the most vulnerable. The more vulnerable the victim, the stronger our empathy... and deeper the disgust is for the perpetrator.

That's why this ex-con bullshit doesn't fly. There are different types of crimes, different levels of crimes. There are victimless crimes. There are crimes of passion. There are first time, only time slip-up crimes. There are premeditated crimes. There are systematic go-till-you're-caught crimes. There are crimes that reveal what kind of a person you are. Undoubtedly, the most difficult crimes to forgive are premeditated, systematic abuses against vulnerable victims. Bonus points when your motive is "it was fun". One of the reasons is because a crime like that is very revealing about the kind of person you are. It's not just what you did, it's also a question of how a person could do such a thing.

Trust me, if Vick had been arrested for weed or any other victimless crime, the forgiveness would be there. It's not his color, it's the nature of his crimes.

[wndycty]

125. I think if you re-read the OP you will notice I raised race not for the reasons you think. . .

. . .I raised race to explain why African Americans might be more prone to pull for Vick's redemption.

I know there is a natural response to assume that I raised race to justify his crime, but I raised race to explain my desire to see him redeem himself.

[grumgrum]

128. Well Said..+1000

[Withywindle]

291. That's pretty much my feeling exactly.

Some crimes, for a lot of people, are just a moral event horizon. Once you've crossed that line, you can't uncross it.

If he'd been busted with coke, no one would give a shit. If he'd accidentally killed someone in a DUI, forgiveness would be feasible eventually. If he'd stolen something back when he was poor, same thing.

Repeated, methodical torture and premeditated agonizing killings of animals over a period of years just for fun? That's really in a whole other league.

There are crimes that reveal what kind of a person you are. Undoubtedly, the most difficult crimes to forgive are premeditated, systematic abuses against vulnerable victims. Bonus points when your motive is "it was fun".

Exactly. There are crimes--and then there are things that make one's fucking skin crawl. Hell, some of the things that make my skin crawl aren't even technically illegal! But my feelings remain, and I'm just never going to be able to cheer for the kind of person who's capable of that kind of thing...for FUN.

[alcibiades_mystery]

121. +1000

The inability of some people to see this as an ex-offender issue, or for the ex-offender issue to really register with them really says it all.

I've worked with ex-offender programs and restorative justice programs on the South Side of Chicago, and what you say is certainly true. I don't think there's a racial divide so much as a familiarity with ex-offender issues divide that happens to cash out along racial lines.

[blondeatlast]

164. Were the members of your family able to afford the best defense lawyers money can buy? Vick was--

and that makes all the difference in the world in terms of conviction and sentencing. I work in the legal field and I see it all the time.

It's much less about race than it is about the legal services you can afford. That's far and wide the biggest legal injustice we have today.

[wndycty]

192. My uncle did time, Vick did time. . .the ability to afford lawyers is irrelevant to this discussion

. . .its about getting a second chance when you get out. Sadly, my uncle is losing that battle due to substance abuse. However I'm glad that my best friend's (college roommate) brother and mother are doing very well.

[JuniperLea]

199. Did your uncle torture and mutilate?

The ability to afford lawyers is EVERYTHING in this discussion. Not only could Vick afford lawyers, he could afford the best PR money can buy.

No amount of asslicking by fans is going to make me think any more of this motherfucker. No amount of PR will either. Seems to me if his supporters truly supported him with real conviction, they wouldn't feel the need to rehash his repulsive acts. They certainly wouldn't feel the need to try and make others "feel good" about his alleged repayment to society.

[wndycty]

225. Since its MY UNCLE we are talking about I would like you to UNDERSTAND why I introduced him. . .

. . .and it had nothing to do with lawyers and EVERYTHING TO DO with the compassion I, and others, show for ex offenders.

You can play that rich athlete/lawyer card all you want, but its irrelevant to this discussion. My uncle's troubles have nothing to do with his lawyer and have everything to do with the challenges facing ex offenders.

I would thank you to keep that in mind whenever you want to bring up the lawyer argument.

[JuniperLea]

242. Since it's torture and brutal murder we're talking about here...

I would think your uncle would have to be guilty of something similar, otherwise, forgiveness or not, his situation doesn't mean a tinker's damn to this discussion.

Do you really think this has nothing to do with wealth and upscale lawyers and PR firms? Really?

[wndycty]

249. Do you have any idea why I introduced my uncle into the discussion. Do you?

I would like to hear why you think I brought him up.

[JuniperLea]

255. Because he had to battle acceptance and forgiveness with friends and family...

And I'm saying that only makes sense if he had done something as brutal and heinous as Vick did.

Were those dots so goddamn hard to connect? Really?

[madmax]

56. What troubles me is why did he do this?

Wasn't for the money, right?

He must have enjoyed it. That's the sick part and I can't get passed that or what those poor dogs suffered.

Did he enjoy watching these dogs suffer, the terror, the fear they suffered, hearing their yelps and screams. I can't imagine what kind of human being could do that, be a part of it and watch it.

I browsed the book on Amazon and could not get past the reviews without feeling sick. I don't believe I could read the book even though some of the dogs have be brought back from the gates of hell.

[blondeatlast]

166. That's what troubles me. nt

[JuniperLea]

261. I agree with you completely...

There's no other explanation than he enjoyed this brutal and vicious behavior. I won't read the book either.

A very good friend of mine runs a pit bull rescue... she cries a lot.

[SammyWinstonJack]

263. Gotta wonder about that. That would seem too be the case and so.. Sick Sick Sick.

[JuniperLea]

274. Which makes me wonder about those who support him now...

Sorta the same, methinks.

[Catherina]

17. The day Michael Vicks donates a single penny towards the rehabilitation

of the animals he barbarically abused who were lucky enough to live, then we can start discussing big words like contrition.

Until then, fuck him, because it's compassionate, caring, little people who are once again cleaning up a rich man's mess.

[wndycty]

23. You do realize he is working with the anti-cruelty society. . .don't you?

:kick:

[Catherina]

26. He's doing image rehab with them, nothing more than that.

Show me the money. Show me the care. Until then, it's all bullshit.

[wndycty]

32. How much money do you want to see. . .

. . .and since you have drawn a line as to what it will take for you to care I will do the research to see where he stands.

If he has met that criteria will you accept it or will you move the goal posts?

[Catherina]

44. You don't get it because you don't want to.

If Vicks hadf any remorse, he would have gone to the STRUGGLING centers treating his dogs and helped them out financially, telling them to spare no expense to rehabilitate those dogs and place them in loving homes after all the torment he put them through. There are so many things a remorseful person would do such as set up a foundation to help abused dogs. Other than a couple of meetings arranged by the Humane Society with some inner city youth, we haven't seen any remorse. Not a word. Not a gesture. Nothing.

Michael Vick and the NFL wasted no time sweeping his dog-torturing past under the rug to make the most of his comeback. Fuck Michael Vicks and the orchestrated campaign to get people to move on.

[wndycty]

46. Since you are expert on what Vick should be doing, go ahead and tell me what he has done. . .

Go right ahead.

[Catherina]

54. I already told you, not that I should have to since you're carrying on about the need to move on

Anyone capable of that level of cruelty lacks the kind of empathy needed to feel "real" remorse. But knock yourself out with the NFL's campaign.

This discussion is as pointless as they come. Sorry but I'm not playing.

[wndycty]

49. From http://www.humanesociety.org

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/michael_vick_events.html
Michael Vick's Speaking Events

Warning young people away from dogfighting
The Humane Society of the United States


Hopes are high that Michael Vick's anti-dogfighting message will resonate with disadvantaged young men who might otherwise be drawn into dogfighting. The HSUS

March 26, 2010 was a day that many young men from Chicago's west side are not likely to forget.

On that day they gathered at John Marshall High School to hear NFL star and convicted dogfighter Michael Vick talk about his troubled past with dogfighting.

His single message to the crowd: Don't be like me. Don't follow the rest of the crowd. Exercise good judgement. Be a compassionate person.

After his speech, Vick stayed for a 45-minute discussion session with a group of a dozen or so young men whose own past (and present) are similarly steeped in the horrors of dogfighting.

Vick's message has been consistent throughout his nationwide speaking engagements to youth in urban areas as part of his pledge to help The HSUS' End Dogfighting campaign, which seeks to end urban (or "street") dogfighting.

Vick's efforts with the End Dogfighting campaign continue. To date, he has also spoken to boys and young men in:

* Atlanta (Aug. 8, 2009)
* Chicago (Aug 12, 2009)
* Philadelphia (Sept. 8, 2009)
* Washington, D.C. (Sept. 29, 2009)
* Philadelphia (Oct. 13, 2009)
* Newport News (Nov. 30, 2009)
* Newark (Dec.1, 2009)
* Philadelphia (Jan 26, 2010)
* Miami (Feb. 8, 2010)
* Durham (Feb. 26, 2010)
* Chicago (Mar. 26, 2010)
* Baltimore (May 6, 2010)

[madmax]

59. Well then, give the man a cigar. nt

[Catherina]

63. I already told you that. He made a few appearances to rehab his image

Not a word of remorse for what he did to the dogs, not a word of compassion or a dime for his victims, not an apology to the people whose dogs his thugs stole so they could be used as terrified bait.

A few appearances as meaningless as Richard Nixon's crocodile tears. Big fucking whoop.

Pointless discussion that's only making me angry now. I love animals too much to play this stupid game with you. Bye.

[wndycty]

69. So how do you feel about the Human Society working with him?

:kick:

[flvegan]

88. Considering what I heard from his handlers at HSUS

and the shit I gave HSUS CEO Wayne Pacelle (friend of mine) about working with him, I feel that HSUS got played in a big way.

Vick has no remorse short of getting caught.

I'm amazed that DU has so many folks that are just okay with hooking car batteries to dogs' ears before they get tossed in a swimming pool.

[Coventina]

93. Stop being so judgmental!

:sarcasm:

It's stuff like this that makes me leave DU for months at a time.

Looks like it's about time for another hiatus.

On another note: remember that rescue I asked you for help with? Well, he's come along very well and turning in to a really great dog. Still a bit of a handful, but very eager to please.

Now, if only I could get my other dog to tolerate him....(she's a grumpy old lady and was NOT HAPPY about getting an energetic younger brother twice her size).

on edit: sleepy typo - I should be in bed!

[flvegan]

95. I'm so happy to hear that.

Grumpy old lady dogs will come around in time. I'm really, really happy that he's turning into a great dog.

[superduperfarleft]

131. Best Friends has a different take.

And they're the ones that were directly tasked with cleaning up his mess.

http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/2010/11/18/michael-vick-the-value-proposition

From what we at Best Friends know of the way Michael Vick has related to the animals he abused, the answer is clearly that he has “simply rediscovered the pocket.” Best Friends took 22 of Vick’s 48 seized dogs and the only contact we’ve received from Vick or his representatives was by way of some overtures from his agent, one of his attorneys and a PR firm specializing in reputation rehabilitation. They were interested in some public glad handing that would put Vick in a favorable light with the NFL, which at the time was still considering whether or not to reinstate him. We declined.

Best Friends has never heard from Michael Vick or any of his representatives inquiring after the health or well being of any of the 22 dogs that we received from his fighting ring.

Sorry, Vick's not remorseful, and unlike most ex-cons, is making millions throwing a ball around. Very few ex-cons get that opportunity. So not only is he incredibly fortunate, he doesn't even seem to realize how fortunate he is.

So fuck him.

[cleanhippie]

175. So because Vick didn't do what YOU wanted him to do...

he gets no forgiveness. I see.

I hope that if you ever find yourself in legal trouble that you would want people to treat you exactly like you are treating them. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

[msanthrope]

182. I think direct compensation to your actual victims is a great way to treat both sides, isn't it?

I've seen it work wonders.

[cleanhippie]

209. Perhaps, yes.

But that is not the issue.

He paid the price hat was demanded of him. Thats it. Change the system if you want, but we operate in the system we have. He paid his price, what more is there to do?

[msanthrope]

214. Direct compensation to his actual victims.

Yes, Vick has done what he was ordered to do.

But he has not done what is right. No 'system' prevents him from acting morally and ethically.

He has served his time. He has a job, and his civil rights restored as is his due.

But if he wants MORE than his legal rights, then he must do MORE than his legal obligation.

[cleanhippie]

217. Well, thats your opinion.

But until the system is changed, his price has been paid, period.

[liquid diamond]

190. Dogs are not equal to people. Oh, Vick is doing quit well thank you.

[muffin1]

222. You're right. Dogs, as well as most animals,

are BETTER than most people. They don't lie, cheat, or steal. They only want food, water, love, and to GIVE love. They are helpless and completely dependant on people.

That sick fucker tied up, beat, electrocuted, and drowned innocent animals for pleasure (!) and money. A FUCKING MILLIONAIRE did this shit for MONEY. It's not like he was some poverty-stricken, urban youth who was desperate for money, or under the influence of drugs. I might be able to comprehend a situation like that.

If he is truly sorry, he would be spending every fucking free minute working with animals in shelters and giving every penny he doesn't need to live to help those shelters.

It's a free country, so knock yourself out with your love of Vick. I won't be joining you. FUCK MICHAEL VICK.

[emilyg]

37. Good PR - nothing more.

[ProudDad]

83. They don't care...they just LOVE being judgemental...

Facts are pesky things that get in the way of spleen-venting...

[superduperfarleft]

135. How is that a "fact?"

Did you see what Best Friends had to say, you know, the group that actually had to come in and clean up his mess, as opposed to the usual pointless blathering that the HSUS engages in?

http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/2010/11/18/michael-vick-the-value-proposition

" From what we at Best Friends know of the way Michael Vick has related to the animals he abused, the answer is clearly that he has “simply rediscovered the pocket.” Best Friends took 22 of Vick’s 48 seized dogs and the only contact we’ve received from Vick or his representatives was by way of some overtures from his agent, one of his attorneys and a PR firm specializing in reputation rehabilitation. They were interested in some public glad handing that would put Vick in a favorable light with the NFL, which at the time was still considering whether or not to reinstate him. We declined.

Best Friends has never heard from Michael Vick or any of his representatives inquiring after the health or well being of any of the 22 dogs that we received from his fighting ring."

[WorseBeforeBetter]

19. How the hell is he contributing to society?

By throwing a football down a field?

THIS is what that fucker did:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvybEiwDXoCZGqum9Aa-Ps1yUixU6IdpRdMHguZhi_HMx14Vrc

If there is a Hell, Michael Vick will be rotting in it.

[wndycty]

25. Hey he is working with the anti-cruelty, talking to young offenders. . .

. . .try to turn his mistake into an opportunity to help others.

The number of people he reaches and helps stay out of trouble is a pretty damn good contribution.

[nc4bo]

30. For some, none of that matters.

And to them I say, whatever floats your boat won't necessarily float mine.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

36. It's PR/image rehab to keep the fat paychecks coming.

I wonder if he was having a shitty season whether so many football fans would be willing to embrace him.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. If he were having a shitty season no one would care about him one way or the other. n/t

[wndycty]

57. I'd be pulling for him and hopeful that he was working hard to get his life back on track

:kick:

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Me too. Me too. n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

68. I dunno. I'd think Eagles fans would turn on him.

Folks are turning a blind eye now that he's winning games.

[Dorian Gray]

154. Absolutely not

Success in sports will get the player forgiven for anything.

Tiger, if he wins a major, will be celebrated.

Rothlisberger, if he wins the division championship, will be celebrated.

You could molest a kid, score 20 touchdowns, and be celebrated.

That's the nature of the sporting world.

(And celebrity, in general.)

[madmax]

64. Why did he get into it the first place?

Did he need the money? Someone needed a kidney transplant and he had no insurance?

[apocalypsehow]

98. I'm not invested in this controversy one way or the other, but your ax-grinding on it sure gets

tiresome. All those intellectual contortions you do on behalf of your cause - Michael Vick.

Vick was a criminal prick - not a victim of racism. I'm not interested in your interpretation of the "narratives" around the matter: the simple fact is, he tortured animals, often to death, got caught doing so, and was duly tried & convicted. Case closed.

[wndycty]

146. You do realize why I introduced race in the OP and it has nothing to do with racism. . .

. . .or him being convicted because of race. It spoke to redemption.

I'm sorry that you are not sophisticated to see that.

[apocalypsehow]

223. A set of changed premises *and* a personal attack all in one reply: you get a gold star for acing

Logical Fallacies 101. Bonus round: very poor grammar.

People who engage in such tactics basically concede the debate to their opposite numbers, and your roundabout concession is so noted. Discussion concluded.

[wndycty]

235. And how did I change the premise? Do tell

:kick:

[apocalypsehow]

99. And, oh yeah: UnRec. n/t.

[LynneSin]

143. Vick approached the Humane Society asking if he could do outreach on their behalf

Vick knows better than any of us the culture of dog fighting in Urban areas. What he does is NOT court order - it was him that reached out to the humane society and asked to do program targetted at inner city schools where that culture still persists today.

I don't expect anyone who is anti-Vick to change their minds, but the man is trying to do his best to redeem himself even though he knows he can never bring back those dogs he has killed. But perhaps by reaching out to kids today and talk about why this is wrong he can save dogs in the future.

Just because Vick was arrested and served his time doesn't mean dog fighting will go away.

[Coventina]

22. Anyone who laughs at the suffering of another creature is a sociopath

Sociopaths, at this point anyway, can't be cured.

All we can hope for is that he learned his lesson, and won't harm any more creatures for the rest of his life.

He doesn't contribute to society in a positive manner.

[ruggerson]

27. Do you have a dog?

[Gemini Cat]

34. Well said.

It's time to get off his back, he has paid for the crimes.

[wndycty]

39. And if he still has a lot of work to do. . .

. . .I'm not even asking others to forgive him, but to understand why some of us are pulling for him to succeed.

[Crazy Dave]

40. Why does it keep some people up all night....

Because they can't sleep knowing there's still people out there that hate Michael Vick?

[wndycty]

43. Huh?

:kick:

[emilyg]

41. Anyone who abuses children, elderly or

animals can rot in hell.

[Catherina]

47. +1 n/t

[ProudDad]

87. You contribute to an Empire that does all of these and more...

:shrug:

[SammyWinstonJack]

266. +1000!

[Missy Vixen]

55. I'm so glad you brought this up

>He has shown contrition, he has suffered enough and is trying to earn a second chance at life.<

How exactly has Michael Vick shown "contrition"? According to flvegan, who's in a position to know, Vick hasn't contributed one red cent to the rehabilitation and rehoming of the dogs he tortured so terribly. The only time he's expressed any emotion at all is when he's discussing his insistence he be able to resume a career that should have been stripped from him as well.

Speaking of suffering, you might want to take a look at the LA Times article earlier this week about one of the dogs in the Bad Newz Kennel. That poor dog will suffer for the rest of his life. That's okay, though. He's just a dog. :eyes:

Imagine the suffering of those who also will never see the money they lost as a result of Vick's mismanagement as well.

>Nothing is being handed to him, he is working hard for this.<

Bullshit. Goodell and Reid are practically holding his hand every day.

>Vick is a football player and as long as he can play and there is a demand for his services he should be allowed to play. Lets not forget the NFL has him under a microscope.<

Vick lost his ability to succeed in a very public career when he made up his mind to engage in activities that turn the stomach of anyone who owns a dog. Nobody forced him. Maybe he should call the WAAAAAAMbulance, hm? There are people all over the country who lose their ability to chase a lucrative career by involving themselves in (and being convicted of) illegal activities. Why is he special?

BTW, most of those here who can't wait to defend him wouldn't give a shit about him if he worked at a convenience store or dug ditches for a living. He succeeds on a football field, so he's automatically "blameless", isn't he?

Here's a question. Actually, here's two.

Would you let him dog sit?

Knowing the strong link between animal abuse and the abuse of human beings, would you allow him to spend extended time alone with your children?

[madmax]

61. Wish I could rec your post 10 times. nt

[wndycty]

62. Your questions

Would I let him dog sit? He is not allowed to be anywhere near dogs. So it would be illegal.

Would I let him be alone with my children? I didn't know he was a pedophile now. WOW!

[Missy Vixen]

76. Thanks for the non-answer

Again: There is a strong (and proven) link between abuse of animals and abuse of people.

Knowing this is a medically sound fact, would you allow Michael Vick to be alone with your children for any length of time?

[wndycty]

85. I don't have children

I'd say yes, but I assume since I'm childless you will dismiss my opinion.

[Goblinmonger]

254. I wouldn't let him be alone with my kids because I don't know him.

Assuming I had some level of social friendship with him, I'd be fine letting him be along with my kids. I don't think the "medically proven" link between animal and people abuse is quite what this situation is. But that's just from my watching of "Criminal Minds." I'm sure you can provide the studies you are talking about.

[Catherina]

65. Thank you. Thank you. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

58. He was a Jeffrey Dahmer who never moved on to humans.

"he has suffered enough"

Says you, if Vick thought he could get away with it he would pick up where he left off because he GOT OFF ON TORTURE.

Sociopaths only regret getting caught, they are incapable of anything even remotely resembling remorse.

[madmax]

74. Anyone who could endure watching that sick

shit is NOT normal.

My house was robbed - I didn't care about the 'things' they stole. That particular day I had taken my Yorkie with me and I was grateful because I don't know how I'd be able to handle thinking that he was being harmed or worse.

If you've never owned a dog or a valued pet you can't understand why the rage about Vick.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Exactly. Some crimes are infinitely worse than others.

And it doesn't get much worse than torturing and killing children and animals for fun and recreation.

I'm glad your buddy is safe, the thought of someone kidnapping your pet to use as bait is too much to bear.

[Dorian Gray]

155. This is true

harming the helpless is truly a vile endeavor.

I'd like to think that Vick (or anyone else who went to jail) could actually be rehabilitated, but I don't know his mind at all. I only know what he has done in the past, and it's truly disturbing. It doesn't bode well for his humanity. And he (and everyone else) should understand why many in society are mistrustful of him.

Having said all that, if he's truly redeemed, he shouldn't concern himself with our opinions of him. He should go about his life, do the best he can to educate people on the evils of dog fighting, and give back what he can to society and the animal world. He did a lot of harm. It's up to him to turn that around.

Even if he does give back positively, people are going to have negative opinions about him. Of course they will. What he did was monstrous.

((The first sentence was in response to BMUS. The rest is just my thoughts on the whole subject.....)

[beam me up scottie]

277. Curse you, Dorian Gray!

Spreading common sense and reason wherever you go... how can you stand yourself?

:)

[Dorian Gray]

308. I often can't

I'm too sanctimoniously reasonable! LOL!

[cherokeeprogressive]

81. Micheal Vick ate dog meat? Any evidence of that? Links maybe?

You are not qualified to call Micheal Vick a sociopath unless you possess the proper education and sit down with him in a clinical setting. Why in the world would you claim otherwise? You know next to nothing about the man. You don't know what he GOT OFF on then or what he gets off on now. Why do you and those who think like you claim to know what he's done or not in order to make up for his wrongdoings? Do you follow his everyday behavior? Do you know what he feels at night when he lays his head on his pillow to go to sleep? I would think not.

"if Vick thought he could get away with it..." What in the fucking world makes you believe you know what he thinks?

Every time I see statements like yours, I'm reminded of the Terri Schiavo debacle wherein Senator Frist questioned whether or not she was in a "vegatative state" based on nothing more than having seen videotape of her. What a fucking uproar that caused on DU. No matter though, within months we hailed * critics for saying they could see on videotape that * was everything from drunk to psychopathic. We're a strange bunch sometimes.

Comparing Michael Vick to Dahmer is a stretch at best. Dahmer ATE human flesh. As far as I know, Vick never ate dogs.

[beam me up scottie]

90. Dahmer's victims were dead when he ate them, what he did to them when they were alive was much worse

Dahmer also tortured and killed animals for fun, your inability to recognize the similarities is your problem, not mine.

And your criticism of my opinion is a hoot since it appears that the only thing you know about Micheal Vick is that he didn't eat his dogs.

His case is very well documented, get back to me when you've read the excerpts from the book, transcripts from his trials and current testimony.






edit: phrasing

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. So, burning inforgivable hatred for another human being is justified by some exerpts from a book

and transcripts from his trials. "Current testimony" doesn't even exist in that context as his trial can long since be considered "water under the bridge". He was tried and convicted for what he did.

I'd bet I know as much about Michael Vick as you do. I read all the same news pieces.

When I was a kid, I used to shoot lizards with my bb gun. No one seemed to mind. One day I shot a sparrow and it died. I thought my Mom was going to beat the shit out of me. Are you saying that if I hadn't been caught shooting a sparrow, I'd have graduated to bigger and bigger mammals until I found that cannabalism was my niche? What would have made ME any different than Michael Vick? If my Mom had caught me shooting a rat rather than a bird, I'd lay money she'd have congratulated me on my marksmanship. What would that have said to you about HER? Would you have said she was willingly and knowingly supporting a future serial killer/cannibal who killed pests for fun because she didn't stop him?

Redemption seems to be a word or concept you can't grasp unless it falls into your expectations of how a wrongdoer goes about seeking it.

I laugh to myself when I wonder what DU would do if confronted with videotaped evidence that the World's Greatest Soccer Player or Formula One Driver made a habit out of biting the heads off of live goldfish at parties. Prosecute? Is the life of a dog more valuable than that of a golfish?

Vick fucked up. Baaaad. Some would excuse his behavior or make excuses for it by using a single phrase that makes nearly all bad behavior somehow acceptable... "it's a cultural thing". I won't do that. I hate that because right behind it you'll find racial stereotypes and those who would blame the very behavior that breeds the stereotype on racism in general and then the whole issue of tortured dogs gets lost in a cacophony of non-related arguments. I'm not going to make any excuses for him whatsoever. He fucked up. Had he even looked at my Golden Retriever or Chihuaha and contemplated treating them the way he did and allowed others to do, I'd have killed him and his hole entourage, slowly, one at a time, and in ways that would inspire horror movie-makers for generations to come. And I'd have gladly done the time for it.

I don't think Vick knew any better. I don't think anyone ever instilled in him the notion that life extended further than his own immediate needs, and I can almost understand the motivation in that. Then, he went from having next to nothing to having more than most will EVER have. I believe that for a majority of people in that situation, if given enough money, things OTHER than money and its trappings take a back seat to getting and bragging about more money, to the extent that the life of a dog is inconsequential. I don't think that notion can be limited to sports "heroes".

I think it's possible that between now and then, Mr. Vick has been shown the error of his thinking and of his ways. It is entirely possible, no matter whether he has contacted the shelter who took the majority of his dogs or not. Who is to say how he feels about what he participated in and allowed to be done in his name? Is it possible that he hasn't contacted those taking care of his dogs for the same guilty reason you or I might not immediately reveal a lie we told to a loved one? Simply avoiding it out of guilt?

The only thing Micheal Vick knows how to do is play football. He just happens to do it well. If he sucked at it we'd never have heard of him. He'd be just another sad story that flowed under the bridge of our consciousness. He can play though. He makes mad money doing it. Money we can't imagine. Maybe even money we'd like to have. He doesn't make money doing it though because people want to see him necessarily.

I don't know what he feels from moment to moment about what he's done. Neither do you. I don't criticize your opinion, I just disagree with the narrow and unforgiving stance it takes.

I guess that for some, redemption in others is a hard thing to allow depending on the transgression and I think that's not necessarily a good thing.

[beam me up scottie]

108. I've always respected you, cp, we are usually on the same side of issues.

"Burning unforgivable hatred"? Seriously?

I may be blind when it comes to the abuse of children and animals - especially this level of abuse - but I am consistent, I damn everyone who hurts them. I don't care about Michael Vick, I care about his victims and that makes it impossible for me to be objective.

I agree that Vick was ill-equipped to deal with his fame and fortune, I think he is stupid and easily influenced/manipulated by others and it's quite possible that "he didn't know any better". His father used to take care of Michael's injured dogs, though, so he had at least one compassionate role model.

I just do not believe that someone who derived so much pleasure by inflicting pain on innocent creatures can be cured.

Ever.

He did what he did for fun, and he did it for years, he is a vile and despicable human being, but that does not mean I wish him harm, I don't. I don't want him to be put to death nor do I want him treated the way he treated his dogs. So what do you do to someone who's only sorry he got caught? Make it too costly for him to repeat his crimes? Hopefully we've already accomplished that.

Other than assuring that he never touches another animal, I have no idea what else he could do to atone for his sins. I guess I wish he would realize that the dogs he killed would have done -and did do- almost anything to please him. Because that's what dogs do. And I wish he would then have to face the animals who will never recover from the horrors he inflicted upon them. Because some of them would forgive him. They would wag their tails and lick his hand after everything he did to them. And in my personal fantasy, his guilt would haunt him for the rest of his days.

But I don't think consciences can be bought, not with prison sentences, not with money and certainly not by excelling as a professional athlete.

Micheal Vick neither needs nor wants *my* forgiveness. We'll see if he really cares about the victims of dog fighting.

Is it too hateful to hope he squanders his future fortune the same way he pissed away the last?

[cherokeeprogressive]

181. Everything you say is true.

I was over the top with the burning unforgivable hatred remark and apologize.

In the end, I have to agree with everything you said in your post. I guess the big difference between our different outlook on this is my belief that redemption is possible in this case.

Not too hateful at all to hope he squanders his fortune. I just won't be convinced that he doesn't deserve the chance to make it. He was charged, convicted, and punished. Now let him be tossed to the court of public opinion. I'm good with that.

Peace and Happy Thanksgiving My Friend...

[beam me up scottie]

280. And thank you, my friend, for making me think through it.

I'll be the first one to admit I lose it when it comes to animal cruelty, I unfairly jumped on you and I apologize. You could have just blown me off with a subject line and a smilie, but you took the time to explain why you feel the way you do.

You have my respect, your faith in humanity far exceeds mine. Cases like this make it extremely difficult for me to not wish harm on another human being.




Peace and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all of yours. :hug:

[Obamanaut]

60. To refresh my memory, his guilty plea was to a gambling charge of

running/funding a dog fighting operation, wasn't it?

What was the punishment for maiming, torturing, killing the animals? Was there such a charge and/or sentence?

How can one atone for the dog faces, limbs, bodies that where sewn back together, or the dogs that had to be put down because the damage was too severe? How about the ones that were killed because they did poorly in fights, or the smaller dogs that were used as bait?

[justiceischeap]

130. He pleaded guilty to the following charges:

Federal:
Conspiracy to Travel in Interstate Commerce in Aid of Unlawful Activities and to Sponsor a Dog in an Animal Fighting Venture (received 24 months because he made a plea deal to inform federal authorities about other dog fighting rings he had knowledge of)

State:
Pleaded guilty to a single charge of dog fighting receiving a 3 year sentence that was suspended for good behavior (+ a $2500 fine)

So, he pleaded guilty and was punished for maiming, torturing and killing animals and not gambling. He also had to allocute his role in maiming, torturing and killing animals per the plea agreement because federal authorities felt he was being less than honest in his statements prior to the plea agreement.

Here's a link to his guilty plea (Federal):
http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0824/vickplea.pdf

Here's a link to the statement of facts (Federal):
http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0824/vicksummary.pdf

[Obamanaut]

139. Thanks. But we see "...business enterprise involving gambling...", and

involvement in one dog fight in five years.

Please.

[jonathan_seer]

70. He should have never been in prison. Instead 25% of his NFL income should have gone to shelters

If that had happened, literally thousands of animals would be alive today that have been put down due to lack of funds.

Instead so called "animal lovers" wanted their pound of flesh so badly, rather than impose punishment that helped animals most, they opted for punishment that hurt Vic in a way they could see - as if making him pay 25% of his NFL income towards animal shelters wouldn't have hurt many times more and taught him the same lesson about how society views what he did.

Is/was this possible - sure. Judges can impose creative sentences if they wish, unless directly forbidden by local laws.

I speak as a dog lover, having several with me currently.

For justice to be just to all parties it must include common sense.

Being compelled to fork over part of his income in memory of the dogs he abused and killed would have been common sense, because so many animals would have been helped as a result.

Punishing him with a hefty fine and prison time did NOT save a single animal anywhere - and there was no sense in that.

[wndycty]

73. Very interesting take

I appreciate the points you made.

[grumgrum]

127. Very Clever Idea!! I gotta remember this.

This is a very creative solution that i wish someone had thought of.
I am a cat lover but reading the horrors of Vick's past i think this would be a perfect compromise that all animal lovers would come to realize the benefits and most certainly vick would have taken it as a good deal...he'd probably go as high as 50% of his income for the res of his life to avoid jail time which would be good news to everyone....and the NFL lovers could still have Vick...damn it...i wish i knew baout this back then.

[msanthrope]

183. Right--we should have ignored the federal code and given Vick a sentence with no basis in law.

Since, afterall, Vick was a federal prosecution, and not in front of Judge Judy, the federal code was followed.

[liquid diamond]

194. Great idea. I appreciate you thinking out of the box instead of reacting

to your emotions like so many posters are here.

[hlthe2b]

72. Posted by CreekDog earlier: statement from caretakers of Vick's dogs

Michael Vick & the Value Proposition
November 18, 2010 - By Francis Battista - Best Friends Animal Society

LA Times sports reporter Bill Plaschke wrote a compelling piece for yesterday’s paper on the resurgence of Michael Vick as an NFL quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles. Plaschke interviewed the caregiver of Mel, a pit bull and former resident of Best Friends Animal Society—and one of Vick’s former canine victims. Powerful stuff. Plaschke’s article boils down to is this question:

“Essentially, an ex-convict is dominating America’s most popular sport while victims of his previous crime continue to live with the brutality of that crime, and has that ever happened before?

Do you cheer the player and boo the man? Can you cheer the comeback while loathing the actions that necessitated the comeback? And how can you do any of this while not knowing if Vick has truly discovered morality or simply rediscovered the pocket?”

From what we at Best Friends know of the way Michael Vick has related to the animals he abused, the answer is clearly that he has “simply rediscovered the pocket.” Best Friends took 22 of Vick’s 48 seized dogs and the only contact we’ve received from Vick or his representatives was by way of some overtures from his agent, one of his attorneys and a PR firm specializing in reputation rehabilitation. They were interested in some public glad handing that would put Vick in a favorable light with the NFL, which at the time was still considering whether or not to reinstate him. We declined.

Best Friends has never heard from Michael Vick or any of his representatives inquiring after the health or well being of any of the 22 dogs that we received from his fighting ring.

According to the law, Michael Vick has paid his debt to society. Many would argue though that being free to get on with his life is one thing. Being welcomed into the highly privileged ranks of the NFL is quite another and warrants a much higher threshold of qualification. Plaschke again:

“…a large percentage of the population will still think Michael Vick is a sociopath. Many people will never get over Vick’s own admissions of unthinkable cruelty to his pit bulls — the strangling, the drowning, the electrocutions, the removal of all the teeth of female dogs who would fight back during mating.”

Obviously not a sufficiently large enough percentage of the population feels that way to deter the NFL from allowing someone on the field who many do believe is a sociopath ex-convict as long as he can fill the seats. They wouldn’t do it if they didn’t know they could get away with it.

Despite the fact that America is routinely described as a nation of animal lovers, concern for the lives and well being of those animals doesn’t yet compete with the desire to be entertained. That’s a problem.

It’s a problem because the same imbalance of public opinion that tolerates Michael Vick as a celebrated athlete also tolerates puppy mills, pet stores and shelter killings…each a cause of suffering many magnitudes the scale of Michael Vicks crimes and in some cases the same order of depravity.

Ending the societal abuse of homeless pets that results in the death of 4 – 5 million animals annually in our shelter system will require more than the heroic efforts of rescuers, it will require recruiting a larger percentage of this nation of animal lovers to a value proposition that places the lives and well being of our animal companions above personal entertainment, the allure of designer breeds and pets as fashion statements. The Michael Vick story is, for me at least, a marker along the way pointing us to the tasks ahead on the road to No More Homeless Pets.

Francis Battista

Co-Founder, Best Friends Animal Society


http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.php/2010/11/18/micha...


It would appear that Vick remains a slimeball despite the excuses his fans have made for him....

[Catherina]

77. Thank you for posting this n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

78. Rediscovered the pocket, clearly.

I live in a state where the pork industry, the NRA, and the N.C. Sporting Dog Association fought legislation that would have regulated puppy mills. "Animals don't have rights, people have rights!" How fucked up is that?

[ruggerson]

80. game, set, match n/t

[superduperfarleft]

136. I wish all of Vick's defenders would shut up long enough to read this.

This pretty much destroys whatever point some random sports writer or the worthless HSUS think they're making.

[wndycty]

141. He was convicted and sentenced, he served his sentence, after he does that. . .

. . .I see know reason for him not to have an opportunity to prove himself in his chosen career.

Giving up his career, as well as the fame and money that comes with it, was not his sentence.

[superduperfarleft]

144. I was more speaking to the "remorse" aspect.

Look, here's my perspective - most ex-cons would kill to be in Vick's shoes. The guy committed a vicious crime, served his time, and was welcomed with open arms into a job paying millions of dollars a year. The worst thing he has to worry about is people saying mean things about him. Most ex-cons would be happy to even get a job washing dishes after serving time for much less brutal crimes.

And despite collusion with the HSUS (which is about as useless an organization as one can get), he's made no actual effort to help the actual dogs who he is responsible for maiming. He can't even take a few bucks out of his giant paycheck to help pay Best Friends back for cleaning up his mess.

Sorry, I have little sympathy.

[blondeatlast]

169. Who is denying him that? Not me, not anyone in this thread. He's PLAYING football for millions.

What opportunities is he missing out on? Endorsements--yes, in that regard, he's toxic. that's no one's fault but his own.

[Swamp Rat]

289. k&r

[KoKo]

294. +1

[ProudDad]

82. Thank you. This fucked up country is blood thirsty enough... (n/t)

[thelordofhell]

86. Charles Dutton killed a man, served TWO prison sentences

And is now a great actor. Do you hate him?

[Bluenorthwest]

158. Dutton was convicted at 17 of manslaughter not murder

He says it was self defense, and I believe him. His other conviction was for possesing a weapon. So, among other differences is that Vick was an adult in the midst of his huge career when he did his crimes, Dutton was not of age, had no career, and gained education and training over several years of incarceation, got out and lived a new way. Dutton did not return to his old career, he made a new life for a new man.
All of it very different. The biggest difference is that Duttton will sit and talk in detail about his past, and how he changed the hard way. Vick just said 'give me back what I had already'.
The comparison is not very accurate at all.

[thelordofhell]

89. Tim Allen was a convicted drug dealer, served his time

And became a successful comedian and actor. Do you hate him?

[nonconformist]

299. See post #107.

I don't see why it's so hard to understand. It's not that a crime was committed, it's the NATURE OF THE CRIME.

[the redcoat]

91. It's a matter of being able to simultaneously hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts...

I don't think it's wrong to say "Let him have freedom and play football" while simultaneously saying "He's a monster and I won't support him."

It's a matter of understanding that the law needs to have a balance between emotion and objectivity. There's nothing wrong with hating Vick, since he's a piece of shit (and I personally would have given him more jail time), but that has to come with the understanding that everyone has the right to pay the debt they're sentenced and then return to society. I'll never say he suffered "enough," but I have no problem acknowledging he's served his punishment. You can hate him, but it has to stay personal, nothing should be done that actually affects him, short of just not buying tickets.

[Safetykitten]

92. You know, it would be just better if people admit they like him because he plays football

and just be fucking honest.

[beam me up scottie]

94. Yep, just like his fans who proudly sported "Ron Mexico" merchandise.

I don't care about sports so I guess I will never understand that kind of worship.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

265. Ahhh, frailty, thy name is sports-fan.

"be just better if people admit they like him because he plays football..."

And after all is said and done, that's what it really boils down to. Between the righteous justifications, buried far under the melodramatic pleas for his multimillion dollar contract, underneath the ineffectual defenses, I'd imagine that the vast majority of his most vociferous defenders just happen to be fans of his also.

Ahhh, frailty, thy name is sports-fan.

[nonconformist]

96. If he (or you) don't like the consequences of his actions, then to paraphrase you:

Tough. Seriously, tough.

The consequences for torturing dogs for over five years is that some people aren't going to like you. Ever. They won't respect you. Ever. Still infinitely better off than those dogs were, I suspect.

Pull for him all you want. But considering the worst thing Vick is facing right now is people not liking him, boo fucking hoo. He didn't even lose his career over this. I'm so tired of people acting like Vick is chained up somewhere being systematically beaten with chains by an angry mob. That's probably what some of his dogs went through, but no. He's gainfully employed, making millions, and yet people have the audacity to dislike him based on his actions. How dare they!

You claim that because he's rich and famous that it angers people. The only part of that that angers me is that he had no monetary motive for his crimes. He did it because he enjoyed it. Regardless, I'd argue that the only reason some people defend him is because he's rich and famous. If I, being decidedly not famous nor rich, was found to have been torturing and mutilating kittens just for fun for the past 5+ years, I bet you wouldn't have a very high opinion of me. I'd be the pariah of the community. And I'd be lucky to find work at McDonald's when it was all over.

Instead of hand-wringing over what people think about him, maybe he should be spending his time and money working with animal charities. Actions speak far louder than words.

[flvegan]

97. Goodness gracious. THIS!

[beam me up scottie]

101. Indeed. He certainly spent enough time torturing them.

It must have been a real priority, too, considering the fact that he could have been off enjoying his multiple mansions, yachts, racehorses, etc.

[superduperfarleft]

137. +1 million. n/t

[blondeatlast]

172. A--EFFING-MEN! Truth. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

270. "He did it because he enjoyed it." Why won't his apologists acknowledge this?

Gotta wonder that. :shrug:

[lukasahero]

286. Thank you.

Just thank you.

[Lucian]

300. + a billion!

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[upi402]

103. 19 terrorists made legions of ex-cons turned good into scum again

They can't get a decent job or rent housing. We are crazed with unforgiving retribution and judgementalism.

[alcibiades_mystery]

122. 40 years of "tough on crime" philosophy meant to criminalize populations

and feed the coffers of the prison industrial complex.

But DUers think their own "personal feelings" (which are, of course, really political constructions coming from outside) are innocent of this long-standing and brutal campaign. They just care about the dogs, see? It's one of the reasons I laugh whenever DUers congratulate themselves about being politically "smarter" than the general population.

On the issue of crime and punishment, I could pick out any 10 people living in underserved neighborhoods on the South Side of Chicago at random, and nearly all of them will have a clearer understanding of the links between conservatism and the prison/revenge culture they've created than would 100 randomly sampled "politically savvy" DUers.

[CakeGrrl]

104. OP, as a dog owner, I agree with you.

It IS a complex issue.

And what was done was reprehensible.

But he served time.

What do people want to do? Implement the death penalty for dogfighting offenses? Is that what is being said between the lines of these posts?

If so, I should hope that some of those lusting for Vick's blood, since nothing less will do for them, are not in other threads calling for compassion or "we're better than that" for murders on or going to death row. That would be, well, inconsistent and hypocritical.

[political_Dem]

118. Thank you for saying this. Exactly.

[wndycty]

145. Thanks CakeGrrl

:kick:

[malaise]

110. I agree n/t

[rucky]

117. I was going to write something similar. K&R

I don't want to live in a society where redemption is not possible. It troubles me just as much as the dogfighting.

[political_Dem]

119. K and R.

I am sick of the lynch mob mentality. I also think that societal forgiveness of a public figure in America is selective. If "the public" was truly fair about their disgust, people would work to stop the "celebrity culture" around serial killers and other notorious murderers.

Case in point:

1) The commercialism of the Lizzie Borden House. Since it is notorious within American history, people want to stay there. It is a Bed and Breakfast.

2) Tourism of murder sites. If people weren't so fascinated with serial killers they wouldn't make trips out to notorious murder spots such as the Clutter family farm.

3)Buying of murder memoribilia. There is a market for buying drawings and other momentoes of serial killers.

If there is a market for people who are fascinated by men and women who have done the unthinkable to other human
beings and American society accepts this, why are they disgusted with Michael Vick's fans who buy his jerseys?

[DonCoquixote]

120. Consider this

Yes, he served his time, however, there is something you overlook. He did not have a CAREER in the same way that a Teacher, Plumber, Doctor or Lawyer does.

HE HAD A DREAM JOB,

One that thousands of young men, Black, White, Samoan and all other shades and races, literally shorten their lifespans to achieve.

There is nothing stopping Vick from writing a bestselling book, or doing the lecture circuit, or even sportscasting, job choices most people STILL would give their eyeteeth for, money beyond what you or I will ever earn. He could even do reality TV, which, will humiliating, would still give him a paycheck to ensure he is beyond middle class, above the average teacher, doctor, lawyer or Plumber.

There is nothing that says he, or for that matter ANYBODY ELSE, is entitled to any sort of career in the NFL.

[alcibiades_mystery]

123. He can still do his job

He stops being "entitled" to it the same time others do: when his numbers fall below the cut-off for a new contract. It's as simple as that.

He is NOT entitled to his job. Nor are others "entitled" to strip him of it.

The employer makes decisions based on his ability. That's how it should be. For some crimes, a conviction requires that one cannot work in that industry again. We've decided that by statute. In other cases, a particular employer or class of employer has stated policies against hiring particular kinds of offenders. That's fine, too.

Neither apply here. It's a matter of judging the employee's ability to succeed and his value for the organization. In this case, Mr. Vick has a clearly demonstrated ability to succeed, and obviously continues to be viewed as valuable by his organization. Furthermore, neither statute nor policy would seemingly prohibit his employer from taking advantage of his exceedingly rare skill set.

Why shouldn't he be thus employed, then?

[DonCoquixote]

276. entitled

Yes, the employer is entitled not to hire him. Sports is not about mere numbers, it is also PR, and if someone does something that affect PR, I have a right to avoid that person. If I employ Vick, I risk people hating my team, which of course means even if he has the numbers, we could still be left behind anyway.

[alcibiades_mystery]

287. Certainly, and they've made that calculation

The fact that he trots out in uniform indicates that they feel his performance continues to have value, and that's all we need to know.

[DonCoquixote]

292. and I

Am entitled to say I do not want to help make a millionaire out of someone that did such crimes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

293. No one says you're not

Knock yourself out, boss.

[xchrom]

126. poor poor vick -- i don't forgive him.

like it makes one scintilla difference.

he's moved on with a good job, a really good income, limelight with the nfl, etc

he doesn't need my forgiveness.

[liquid diamond]

195. Thank you for your honesty. He doesn't give a fuck about the

hateful people in this thread. Hahaha.

[displacedvermoter]

268. You Strike me as Pretty Hateful Yourself

Honestly.

[SammyWinstonJack]

271. Well Vick would certainly recognize hateful, now wouldn't he?

Hahaha. :eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

129. I haven't made my final decision on him yet

Where I certainly believe in redemption it will take a number of years before I can believe in real redemptive change on his part. ON the other hand this may all be a public relations act to reclaim the wonderful opportunity he has to be successful in the NFL.

Too early for me. Now if ten years down the road he proves to have genuinely matured and developed some compassion, we can then have this conversation.

[dsc]

138. so would cut a similarly situated teacher such slack

or how about a similarly situated doctor. The fact is if I get convicted of a felony, no matter what felony it is, I will lose my career. Somehow I don't think we will hear peons to my responsiblity and repentence here or anywhere else were that to happen.

[alcibiades_mystery]

149. Actually, many of us work on ex-offender issues in our localities

For some jobs, you're quite right that either policies or statute prevent an ex-offender from continuing in that career, depending on the nature of the offense in some cases. Where neither statute nor long-standing policy (nor, of course, common sense) prevent ex-offenders from returning to their jobs or professions, however, we should encourage them to do so, as it lowers recidivism rates and improves communities. In this case, Vick happens to have an extremely rare skill set that is still deemed valuable to employers in his industry. I don't see why he shouldn't return to his job after he has completed the democratically determined punishment for his offense.

And I think you mean paeans.

[wndycty]

160. Thanks for you insight

:kick:

[Amerigo Vespucci]

142. He "deserves" jack shit.

He "deserves" the right to go out into the world and fight any and all uphill battles he may face.

He "deserves" to see the look in the eyes of people who see him and know what he is and what he's done.

He "deserves" whatever any man or woman...every person reading this...deserves, and that is the guarantee that life offers no guarantees, it can be harsh, it can be unfair, it can be brutal, but will often provide a smoother road for people who do not torture, maim and kill innocent, helpless animals.

He "deserves" to go fuck himself and take his medicine.

[madokie]

150. I agree

I'm a white dude who loves to watch him play football. The guy has talent and has paid the price of his crime so let him be. In fact help him to become more successful if need be, not less.

[601Liberal]

151. I agree

I'm not a Vick fan per se, but he did serve his time. Whether or not he served enough is a debate for another day, but it is what it is. He served his time and now that he's out, he has the right to become a productive citizen and contribute to society, as does anyone else who's been in prison.

I think a lot of people are upset about him because of his profession and the money he makes. I don't think people would have a problem with his sentence if he were a ditch digger or garbage collector.

[wndycty]

152. Great point

:kick:

[SammyWinstonJack]

272. Oh what a pant load! Could NOT care less what his profession is or how much money he made/makes.

It's about WHAT HE DID and apparently he ENJOYED IT, since it went on for years.


He is sick bastard, plain and simple, whether he played professional ball or collected garbage or dug ditches.

Maybe those defending him are, BECAUSE of his profession?


See how that works?

[Bluenorthwest]

156. Please explain in detail what he did to the dogs, how long that

went on, and exactly how you think I am supposed to express forgiveness for a guy I do not know nor care about. Football could vanish and I'd not notice. Vickey can vanish or not vanish, he's nothing to me but a guy who I learned about because of his abuse of innocent animals for his own pleasure.
Is he good at playing with balls? Is that how he got the money to kill dogs? From his fans? Tell me what he did, again? How many dogs? How many dead? You should be very comfortable with all of those facts, if you have forgiven him. You should easily be able to tell me how many animals were euthanized to give Mike a woody. You should be able to describe the acts you demand be forgiven. If you can not, you have not really dealt with what happened at all.
Post photos of the dogs, and ask for forgiveness, to prove you are so free of judgment. Denial is not part of redemption, truth is the whole of it.
What exactly do you seek forgiveness for, and who would that forgivness express itself?

[SammyWinstonJack]

273. +1000! I wouldn't count on a reply, except to say that he has paid his dues.

:evilgrin:

[joeybee12]

157. Vick is garbage and this post is garbage...happy to unrec...nt

[CBGLuthier]

161. Neither this post nor Michael Vick are worth any anger

I don't view him as a reformed criminal. I view him as a confirmed monster. Fuck him.

[liquid diamond]

196. I'm sure your post will bring him to tears...not. n/t

[Renew Deal]

162. Although what he did was wrong, there are a number of people out there that will always hate him for

being rich and successful (at anything). They hated him before this happened and this will give them something legitimate to hate him for.

[Dreamer Tatum]

163. I really hope people don't think Vick is the worst-offending ex-con walking the streets

I get the sense that some do. There are rapists and murderers walking the streets, but my guess is that if anyone here shined a light on them, nary a peep would be heard.

Ergo, people's real problem with Vick is that he's gone back to his life and is prospering as an ex-con.

I say good for him.

(and spare me your slow-mo commercials: I have three dogs that I love)

[KoKo]

295. He is indeed "PROSPERING" as an EX CON...You got that one correct!

Good for you...some sense of how things work...there.

[City Lights]

168. Unrec.

:puke: on Vick and those who defend him.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

176. I feel sorry for you, my friend. I caught the wrath of DU last night when I raised

the question about whether or not Vick could ever be forgiven.

You are treading into dangerous territory with this OP. I learned the hard way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9605469

[blondeatlast]

177. Who, exactly, is physically or legally denying Vick anything now? He IS a public figure--

which can be both a blessing and a curse. He knows he's a public fugure, he's got the best PR on the planet--but public opinion is public opinion.

All he's being denied is endorsements. Endorsements depend on public opinion. He can do so much more to remedy public opinion, he chooses not to.

Sorry, when my brothers and sisters are stopped by cops in Arizona simply because they are brown or choose to speak a language that isn't English, I find it hard to worry about the likes of any animal torturer.

[Ganja Ninja]

178. Here's another side of the argument.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=215x165570

Dog owner can't forgive Michael Vick

By Bill Plaschke

November 16, 2010|8:27 p.m.

While Michael Vick was screaming toward the sky, a black pit bull named Mel was standing quietly by a door.

On this night, like many other nights, Mel was waiting for his owners to take him outside, but he couldn't alert them with a bark. He doesn't bark. He won't bark. The bark has been beaten out of him.

While Michael Vick was running for glory, Mel was cowering toward a wall.

Every time the 4-year-old dog meets a stranger, he goes into convulsions. He staggers back into a wall for protection. He lowers his face and tries to hide. New faces are not new friends, but old terrors.

While Michael Vick was officially outracing his past Monday night, one of the dogs he abused cannot.

More: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-20101117,0...

[bighart]

Ok so I just feel compelled to point out that

Vick plays football and, while I love the game, I don't really consider it a contribution to society.

[ileus]

180. It's nice to see him back on top of his game.

[SweetieD]

184. I agree with you OP. It sickens me that people really are calling for the life of a man

over the life of a dog. I know cultural values are different regarding the worth put on pets and animals, but I don't think any human being should receive a death penalty for killing dogs.

[Scout]

188. it's not just "the life of a dog" ... it is the repeated TORTURE

and the brutality of the killings, and his enjoyment of them. he had no need to fight dogs to earn money, he did it because he LIKED it.

you act as though he accidentally hit someone's dog with his car.

most animals ARE worth more than some people. death penalty is too kind for Vick.

[liquid diamond]

198. Exhibit A.

[Scout]

201. right back atcha ... n/t

[liquid diamond]

197. Believe it or not, there are posters here that consider dogs to be

equal to people! Some of them have said they would risk their life to save a fucking PET. Unreal.

[hlthe2b]

279. Based on that statement, I'd bet they'd go for the dog before you

:eyes:

[liquid diamond]

185. Nothing short of Vick's execution will satisfy the dog lovers here.

I'm glad he isn't going through the rest of his life with his head down. He has gained success and has restored his image. I believe that is what is driving his critics crazy.

[Scout]

202. "restored his image"

:rofl:

only for simpletons and sports fanatics

[liquid diamond]

264. He isn't as hated now as he was back in 2007. That really

bothers you. Tee hee.

[Chan790]

213. Actually...

I'd have settled for a sentence long enough to preclude any subsequent NFL career.

[cleanhippie]

219. Yup, thats it exactly.

People just cannot get over the fact that, right or wrong, he paid the price demanded of him, and he has come out of it better than he started.

Sounds like a success of the Criminal Justice system if you ask me. We could only hope that MORE convicts turn out like this...

[liquid diamond]

262. Last night the former coach of the Colts Tony Dungy

pointed out that Vick would not have had this transformation if it weren't for prison. Interesting point.

[cleanhippie]

267. People just cannot realize that the system WORKED....for a change.

For all the complaining about the criminal justice system we, as progressives, do, I am flabberghasted that people here do not see this as a WIN for the system. Vick is a success story.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

250. Well.

Whoever it is is on ignore already for me. Thanks for validating my decision :)

[JuniperLea]

258. Well!

Thanks for validating mine as well!

I see upthread where ignore and ignore are having a battle of wits... I bet no one wins!

:rofl:

[bamacrat]

189. While what he did was horrible and should always follow him...

at least he is turning himself around. I mean yes he is only an athlete and what he does does not impact real life at all but it seems many people would rather him have gotten out of prison and went back to his old ways. There have been Did he go to jail because he was black? No. he went to prison because he did something horrible. The man lost hundreds of millions of dollars in endorsements and salary, spent two years in jail and had his name drug through the mud. He is now building his name and life back, good for him for not returning to the ways of his past. People can hate him and are fully justified but they have to admit he is doing it right this time. I also am pulling for him, not as a fan or anything like that but as a person. He is after all a person, and all people deserve a chance to redeem themselves. OJ, Maurice Clarett, etc. have all done things that have landed them in jail and they have not made their life after prosecution better, Vick has and for that I commend him.

[KansDem]

200. Well, there's "doing time" and then there's "doing time"

I think we can understand and forgive someone who was caught doing something unlawful like stealing (out of necessity or vanity) and who does do their time, and comes out of prison to be productive.

But, I would think someone who gleaned pleasure from watching two dogs rip into each other and fighting to the death has some basic mental and personality problems. Like child molestation and rape: is there really a "prison sentence" long enough?

Sure, Vick can "do his time," but I wouldn't want him as a neighbor...

[SamW]

205. Vick

Vick is a great athlete... time will tell on his behavior after prison

[LanternWaste]

203. You appear to confuse a legal sentencing with social mores

You appear to confuse a legal sentencing with social mores. The consequences of the two may often converge, but more often than not, they won't.

You also appear to confuse anger at "a millionaire and a celebrity" with anger at an animal abuser (well, either that or you simply conflate the two to ad a touch of the melodramatic to your defense). Again, the two are wholly separate issues.

Regardless, my own personal boycott of the NFL which began immediatley after his reinstatement has little to do with recidivism, his success, or his prestige... it's simply because a man who tortures animals (or shall we call it "enhanced interrogation" so as not to offend his delicate sensibilities?) is a little more than piece of shit wearing a human skin.

:shrug:

[smiley]

226. Yeah - he did his time.

and sure it's america so he has every right to continue his career. But it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to consider him a big pile of steaming dog shit for what he did. Mainly because I feel he would still be taking part in those actions had he not got caught. I have that right and you can't tell me or anybody else otherwise.

[wndycty]

228. I think we can agree about that. . .as long as you acknowledge is right to a career.. .

. . .think of him what you will.

[smiley]

236. thank you

[LanternWaste]

256. self delte

[ecstatic]

229. The funny thing is I see more support for pedophiles getting second

chances than Vick. Go figure. :crazy:

[Dreamer Tatum]

297. The rank ordering is becoming crystal clear

The worst thing you can possibly be on DU, of course, is a racist. Then, evidently, comes dog killer. Then, human killer, unless there are mitigating circumstances, like, 'he had it coming,' or, 'he was a racist.' or, 'he was a republican.' Pedophiles are actually far down on the bad list, and in fact they are often outright defended here.

[northernlights]

232. what efforts to redeem himself? and exactly how does throwing a ball contribute to society?

He wasn't above having his "people" contacting the organization, Best Friends -- that committed funds, resources, expertise, veterinary care and limitless love to the surviving victims of his torture chamber -- to put in a good word for him.

Yet he has never once, to this day, asked how the survivors were doing or offered any additional financial assistance to their ongoing, lifelong rehabilition and healing.

He's a crocket full of excrement. As is the claim that he has "paid his debt" and "redeemed himself" and "contributes to society." :puke::puke::puke:

[Hepburn]

248. All I have to say is:

FUCK YOU, VICK!!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[MellowDem]

252. I think your racial reasoning...

is flawed. As a black man, you are happy for Vick because he is black and has come back. But the truth is, whatever Vick's soul is really like, most people would be more than willing to give up dogfighting if given the opportunity to make millions again, regardless of morals. It is not a sign of success of a black man being able to overcome the unfairness of American life and the situation he was handed. It is a sign that most people will give up dogfighting to continue making millions. If Vick made shit before, like most minorities in jail, chances are he would be much more tempted to return to a criminal life once he got out with very few opportunities paying next to crap.

I just don't find Vick's recuperation all that impressive. I bet Big Ben will stay away from sexual assaults for a while now as well, but I doubt it's from a change of heart. And even if it was, it's hard when the allure of millions of dollars is such an obvious motivation for these players.

Call me a cynic, but Vick's recuperation doesn't bode well for black males at all. His story reinforces the things that keep those at the bottom of society down there. Vick has a set of skills that is sought after so much that he will be offered millions even after this crime. For the vast majority of incarcerated black males, or any incarcerated person out there, that just isn't true for them once they get out, and doesn't address reality at all.

I fully agree with you that Vick shouldn't be hated if he has truly changed his ways. But you'll find a lot of cynics here who think that it was about the money, and I can't really blame them. So they'll continue to think Vick, in his heart of hearts, is still a monster. I personally am a more forgiving person who tries to take people at their word, and I really do hope that Vick has had a change of heart. But I can't agree with your rather naive assessment of how this is a good sign for black males who are incarcerated to use as inspiration, or even a positive sign. To me, it is exactly the opposite, and proof that money means more than ever, which can only be bad news for those with the least money.

Any incarcerated person who looks to Vick as an inspiration must be truly delusionary. Vick is much more privileged than they ever will be and they will never have the opportunities Vick did. That is just the reality of money in our society.

Don't be fooled into thinking that the people who helped Vick out had good intentions. The whole point of getting Vick back into football again was to make more money for them as well. Once you realize this, even though it's a pretty cynical view of the world, you see the reality. The NFL and other such organizations are often paraded as these great American manifestations of rags to riches by the media, especially for minorities. But the truth is that this is just a facade that covers up the reality, and the reality is that nothing as changed. Vick's success mean's nothing in terms of greater racial or economic equality. The way our society is, there never will be racial equality as long as there is economic inequality, and the economic system that brings us that inequality is more convincing than ever to Americans, hence this last election. And the NFL pretends it's all good, and so does the media, with these bullshit stories.

[Coventina]

275. Awesome, thoughtful post. Too bad it's so far downthread that few

will have the willingness to wade through to read it.

But I wanted you to know that I did and I agree with almost every word you said.

I am convinced, based on the evidence and what he pled guilty to, that he is a sociopath, a mental aberration that has no cure at this time. I just hope that he's learned the consequences to himself for bad behavior, and won't do such things again. But he is not to be trusted.

But the point you make about how Vick's example is ultimately a BAD example was something I felt as well, but had not come up with the erudite words you did.

[emilyg]

278. +100

[Skidmore]

253. You are way too progressive DU these days.

Forgiveness and rehabilitation is not part of the lexicon these days.

[Raine]

269. Asshole Vick can FUCK OFF

I hope if there is a hell that there is a special place there reserved just for him. :grr:

[usregimechange]

281. I agree, a society that does not believe people can change is itself criminal

[bbinacan]

282. Agreed. n/t

[S_E_Fudd]

283. Sorry merely being a good football player doesn't mean he should yet be trusted...

The only reason he got his job back is because he is a talented football player...and in the National Felon League there is no crime so awful you won't get your job back if you have any kind of talent whatsoever...

Anyone else had done what Vick did...and lets not forget what he did...day , after day, after day he tortured helpless animals, electrocuted them, drowned them and forced them to fight each other to death...anyone else would have lost their job permanently. But because he is rich and can play football he is treated differently...

This is a failure of the NFL and of a country where pro sports (particularly football) is more important to more people than almost anything else...

And while I hope he has truly reformed himself, it will take more than playing well in a couple of football games to convince me that that has happened...

[lukasahero]

285. "being an African American male myself, I want to see Vick being successful"

I wish you would rather see him being a good person. There are a lot of "successful" people who aren't worth the dirt under your shoe.

You can pull for him all you want. I do animal rescue so I'll pull for the dogs, thanks anyway.

[roody]

288. My doggie says, "Don't trust him."

[Swamp Rat]

290. Fuck that dog murderer! .... and FUCK THE NFL!!

[KoKo]

296. AGREE! AND THANKS FOR SHOWING HIM AS WHAT HE IS!

Pictures worth thousand of words trying to defend that cruel scum! No matter how many PR people his Millons will pay for...there is a place card with his name on it in hell!

[Lucian]

301. He actually enjoyed what he did...

making dogs fight for money.

He has sociopath written all over him, but god, we should "forgive him" because he spent a little time behind bars. Fuck that.

[pecwae]

306. Yep!

:applause:

[NuclearDem]

302. I know I'm going to get a lot of people here angry at me for this

But I agree with the OP.

Look, you're not going to find someone more disgusted with animal abuse and dog fighting more than me, a regular donor to the ASPCA, PETA, and a volunteer with the Nebraska Humane Society who has eight pets between my home in Indiana and my home in Nebraska. I could never be impartial on a jury for someone facing an animal cruelty charge. But I'm willing to forgive Michael Vick.

What he did was downright despicable. I was just as furious as any of you when I heard about the dog fighting ring. But you know what? Being angry at someone is ZERO excuse for some of the comments some of you guys have made.

As someone who believes in the American justice system, I believe people should be convicted of their crimes by a jury of their peers and given a sentence appropriate to their crimes. That happened to Michael Vick--he did his time in prison and lost a lot of money for what he did. And given how devastating it was to his career and his financial situation, it WAS an appropriate sentence. And given how he's ALWAYS going to be remembered as someone who did something that cruel to animals, he's going to live with it for the rest of his life.

But whether you're pissed at his sentence, if you think it was too lenient...that's ZERO excuse for suggesting he should be fed to rabid dogs or tortured to death. Comments like that lower you to about the level of people who chop off hands for theft. That's right--for saying shit like that, it makes you NO better than the average Taliban fighter.

What the hell happened to a belief in the Eighth Amendment? Or the fact that America stands above everyone else because we DON'T do that kind of shit to criminals, no matter their crimes?

Forgiveness makes you a better person. Or if you just want to demonize everyone convicted of animal cruelty or a sex crime and let out your inner Taliban, you can do that too. But if someone is repentant for what they did, is going through therapy, and turning their life around, then you NEED to let it go.

NEVER forget what he did. But don't give in to your dark side.

[wndycty]

303. "NEVER forget what he did. But don't give in to your dark side"--VERY WELL SAID!

:kick:

[Coventina]

305. Vick is NOT going through therapy. Not that it matters because his illness

has no cure. He's a sociopath, a creature without the ability to feel empathy.

But I just wanted you to be aware that he has not received "professional help" for his problem. He's refused it.

I, personally, have not called for his death or any physical harm to come to him. I'm anti DP and torture, period.

But as for thinking that he is someone who is to be trusted, admired, or valorized in any way? No way, no how, never.

He's sick and always will be. He is never to be trusted with any being in his power. He might have learned the lesson of the negative consequences to himself for mistreating others, but he is incapable of understanding WHY.

[NuclearDem]

307. I was mostly speaking in general

I didn't know Vick wasn't seeking therapy. In that case, I think he SHOULD be hounded until he's finally does take action to that effect.

[TheKentuckian]

309. I can't rule out beating Vick to death if I had caught his ass but I firmly believe that once you

serve out and/or come off probation that you have settled your debt to society and should resume as full citizen again.

From a big picture and moral standpoint, I believe it to be counter productive to not give a criminal the ability to restore and redeem themselves.

It isn't about the individual. It is about a society, if the sentence is too light then that is a discussion but millions essentially done for life when you have them on streets is dangerously stupid and breeds crime, real crime.

[live love laugh]

310. Megadittoes! nt