Well, well, a pattern is emerging with TSA

[nadinbrzezinski]

yes, they KNOW they have crossed a line.

No, they don't know how to deal with it.

And yes. some folks are speaking louder and louder about israelizing the airports. Yep, even in Congress...

Now if my tea readying is correct, soon there will be openings at TSA for college graduates that can start doing the ...yes lets use the term some folks don't like, profiling at airports. We will move that way, why? It is either that, or this. As is we already have some LIMTED profiling and if you think this is not the case I got nice ocean front property in nevada for sale, and cheap too.

And for 98% of passengers security will be quite transparent and not bothersome... now those who are fingered for further investigation, yes it is uncomfortable.

On the bright side, that is not security theater.

realize though that no security is 100% effective... that is the goal... but reality is that is not.

[Angry Dragon]

1. People forget that we as humans profile others everyday

conscientiously or sub-conscientiously

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Who cares, as long as you don't have the power to destroy someone's life?

[Angry Dragon]

24. I am not sure what you are asking

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. We all have prejudices. But who cares as long as we don't hold a position

where someone's life and welfare might be jeopardize by that prejudice.

[slackmaster]

49. I think my prejudice against people who talk on cell phones or text while driving has saved my life

More than once.

[The Backlash Cometh]

51. I don't think that qualifies as a prejudice, since it's not based on a

preconceived notion.

[slackmaster]

52. I have a preconceived notion that someone who is paying attention to something other than the road

...is a threat to my safety. I also have similar negative preconceived notions about very young drivers, and very old ones.

Real statistical data supports my preconceived notions. They're based on verifiable fact, not bigotry or emotion. I think preconceived notions sometimes get an undeserved bad rap.

(A preconceived notion is not necessarily innacurate. ;-) )

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. No, because texting is a distraction, regardless of race,

creed etc.

Not all preconceived notions are inaccurate, but we don't really know if there is a statistical significance in the differences between races and cultures in certain profiling cases, because in this country, not everyone is treated equally.

[HubertHeaver]

2. Good call, Nadin. nt

[NightWatcher]

profiling done by trained personnel= good tool. profile done by minimum wagers= racism

I used to do background checks on govt employees and you wanna talk about scary? many of these people who are now TSA'ers were flipping burgers at their last jobs. THEY ARE NOT SECURITY PERSONNEL. They are hacks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. TSA don't pay minimum wage, not even now

they are well paid and have good beanies.

Even now they can be trained as well. But I suspect they will bring people in to do it...

[FourScore]

34. They are NOT paid well. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Actually they are

paid well...

Go to the website and check the pay scale, please These are not rent a cops. They were, on 9.11

[FourScore]

43. Link?

Actually, I know quite a lot about this.

Although, you and I frequently agree on most subjects, nadinbrzezinski. This is one where we do not entirely agree. I guess I am tired of trying to educate anyone here at DU about what is going on. It's too big, I don't have enough time to get into it the way that I should, and people are reacting so emotionally to this topic, that it detracts from the real conversation that needs to take place.

In any case, I am disturbed by what I am seeing here at DU on this topic. It is not that I support the actions of the TSA, because I don't. But, so many people here have it so wrong, that it minimizes the discussion, and thereby, the real argument that should be happening.

Nevertheless, I look forward to us standing united on other issues, nadinbrzezinski! As is so often the case.
:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. here

and incidentally I know quite a bit about this since I know some folks who work at TSA...

The posted pay is usually NOT final pay. Also initial pay is only for those who are trainees

Most people move into higher pay fairly fast, and they have health and other benefits that are not posted in the scale

http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers/pay_scales.shtm

And yes, there is far more going on than just pay by the way.

Oh and I forgot pay BEFORE 9.11 WAS minimum wage with NO BENEFITS.

[FourScore]

46. Here is the story...

TSA starts their screeners at around $14.00/hr. Post 9-11, TSA found that they could not hire the caliber of worker needed for the job. If you will remember, security was at the top of everyone's list back then. (I'm not saying I agree with them, it's just what the majority of the public said they wanted.) Anyway, one way that TSA was able to find workers who would stay on the job, and took the job seriously, was to offer a career path. So the government leveled the job of TSA officials equivalent to the level of border guards. This had never been the case before. Suddenly working as a TSA official became a career path with benefits instead of a dead-end job.

A private contractor will not be able to make this kind of offer to their screeners. And you can bet, there will be screeners one way or another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Alas we agree

:-)

Why privatizing this is the height of stupidity.

[FourScore]

50. I knew we would find common ground somewhere!!!

:fistbump:

[KoKo]

62. Personal Examinations done by Professionals=still against our rights...X Rays

done by trained professionals over and over with every flight for Frequent Flyers=Not Good when not medically approved by person subjected to it and alternative is being being groped by professional or non-professionally trained.

What is the answer?

[pinboy3niner]

3. How are TSA's scans/gropes affecting professional terrorists?

"What we're doing could really hurt them. They could die laughing."

--Michael Boyd, aviation analyst, on MSNBC this morning

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I have been laughing, I'll admit

they won.

And they know it.

Sneeze and watch the Americans do these things... oy the entertainment!

[eleny]

4. A reporter interviewed this morning by Andrea Mitchell said something about the polling

He said that the recent polling resulting in high numbers of people being for the checking were not asked about the pat downs. They were only asked about the imaging.

[Duke Newcombe]

5. Anything to get away from the "security theater"...

I'm okay with profiling BEHAVIOR, not people.

Of course, who wants to bet that Blackwater/XE will now be providing our government with many high-dollar college psychology grads and ex-interrogators RealSoonNow™?

[HillbillyBob]

18. SShudder. I guess I ll drive.

How long before there are border checks between states?

TSA is doing the terrorists jobs by inhibiting travel.
Many of us only travel by air in urgent situations.

[laughingliberal]

35. Profiling behavior is how Israel claims they do it. nm

[notesdev]

6. But what about the plans for the virgin bomber?

Based on the pattern of previous behavior, the TSA would be pulling people out of the security line at "random" to rape them them in the name of security.

[ejpoeta]

7. my husband told me as he ended up getting scrutinized when he went into the airport ot fix a machine

that the TSA agents told him if you keep your hands out of your pockets then they probably will pay no attention to you. he put his hands in his pockets and ended up going through the machine.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

9. It is true-ly amazing after all these years and huge amounts of

money thrown at this problem, that this is all we have as a solution, is the problem that unsolvable? Or just a way for some companies to sell scanning machines? Or just a way to keep us fearful? To keep us supporting endless war? We keep getting hung up on each issue that comes along. Any thoughts?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. One follow the money

two we have been told that the Israeli method is slow, which it isn't/

It is PERSONNEL INTENSIVE and places like Mexico City use it... they handle same traffic as JFK.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

17. One billion dollars = 20,000 jobs paying 50,000 a year.

[Vincardog]

10. What about those who are singled out for further fingering?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. It will be mostly the same kind of "stupidity" that happened to me

in Mexico City. When I checked in to Continental I had a hot flash... so they checked my luggage a little more carefully.

Most of them will fall in that category.

Now if I had a visa from oh Yemen I am sure they would have included a little more like a more in depth questioning.

By the way I thanked them for doing their job.

[Alameda]

15. Yes, I'm curious about that too.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Fuck the racist profiling.

That's exactly what I feared all this touching white folk was leading to. So they could make an outcry to throw the rest of us under the bus.

To that I say, fuck you all. Listen to right-wing radio and tell me who in this country is spouting off hate talk. Why aren't you profiling white men with crew cuts? Why not? Why are they allowed more platitudes than the rest of us.

I think you all need to pay the rest of us compensation for the mental abuses you've been putting us through.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I hate to point this out

but whenever I went on a scene as an EMT in Mexico, I did it... it is called scene and threat assessment. If it is racist, you got a point. If it is threat, you don't have a point.

It is like standard around the world for police and EMS.

So you telling me that I am racist since well, I did it on every and each call?

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. How many times were you right?

What was your percentage?
What were you profiling for since in an EMT in Mexico you would have a high percentage of latinos to pick from. Obviously, if 80% of the people are latino that you see, I would expect your numbers to be high. I'm not sure that this post has any bearing to the USA the way you present it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Well let's see, I got a gun out of a belt buckle

and again you are thinking we were doing this using race which nobody was... white, black, purple, I don't give a fuck... now present a threat to me or my partner I give a fuck

We were using behavior... and it was the BEHAVIOR that cued me in to perhaps there was a threat on this gentleman. I'd say a 25 caliber gun is a threat, wouldn't you?

The term is not PC in the US since you jump immediately into race. Most who know a tad about security are talking about behavior. By the way it is relevant to the Staes too... what do you think cops are trained to do at the Academy? I am not denying that there is racism in the US... but to say that all profiling is ONLY racial is way off.

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. Nadin, you especially, since you understand how the term profiling

has a connotation that is immediately understood as racial, should be very clear that you mean "Behavior profiling." This is new to the masses, and if you don't make it clear, and show the discrepancy, you'll find quite a few right-wingers agreeing with you for all the wrong reasons. This is an opportunity to educate, and to teach the different kind of profiling that exists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Just like liberal the word has been corrupted

next to be corrupted, progressive.

[pipi_k]

59. Racist? How about sensible?

What if we look at this from another perspective...

What if young men from a certain ethnic group hadn't been doing all these terror attacks?


What if it were young white women doing it instead?

How would it make any sense at all to check black women? Old ladies in wheelchairs? MEN?? KIDS??

Inefficient. Wasteful. Stupid.


Is it really "racist" to pay particular attention to a group that has been doing the terrorist acts? If a group of white teenagers is running around town smashing peoples' mailboxes, do cops stop older couples out walking their dogs, or do they profile for a certain age group?



Sometimes profiling IS necessary in order for law enforcement professionals to be able to do their jobs. Unappetizing, but true.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. The flaw in your reasoning is that the priorities of our Criminal Justice

system are skewed. They're based on statistics that are the result of prejudicial policies.

If you're trying to profile terrorists, I'm here to say that you have as much if not more to worry about the white, skinhead cults or disgruntled ex-military like McVeigh, as you do Muslim groups. Look at it this way, would you like to be in the position of telling the US public, "Nobody told us, We didn't know, Nobody could predict it, no one saw it coming..."

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. The underwear bomber was African.

Should we look at all black people now?

And do you think all Arabs look alike? Can you tell them apart from Indians, for example? Can you tell a Sikh from a Muslim?

[athena]

20. People brought this on themselves.

I don't agree with these searches and am dreading having to go through one of the machines. But I have to say that people have brought this on themselves. When the underwear bomber tried to blow up a plane and failed, and Napolitano pointed out that the system worked, she was roundly criticized and mocked. Many people, including some posters here, were outraged that the bomber was able to board a plane with explosives on his body. I don't recall anyone conceding that Napolitano had a point. Instead of accepting the small risk and being reassured that the attempt had failed, people chose to feign outrage. Was the administration supposed to ingore their outrage?

Well, folks, it is thanks to this attitude that we now have to be strip-searched whenever we want to fly. Refusing to accept the small risk of someone getting on a plane with explosives means accepting a strip search or worse.

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who are now criticizing the administration for allowing these searches are the same ones who were criticizing it earlier for not taking the threats seriously. Some people have no sense of irony.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Given that this equipment was first used at Phoenix in

oh 2004 no... that is not what is going on.

And the SYSTEM worked, and it didn't at the same time. After all one alphabet soup knew the threat but did not communicate it to another alphabet soup, and his father turend him in at the Embassy. So no, I would not say the system fully worked. As far as TSA sure it did. Shipol is not in the US, last time I checked. Shipol also rejected these machines AFTER last year.

[hedgehog]

32. The underwear bomber boarded the plane in Paris, so he never

was checked by the TSA. In addition, according to Wiki, he'd been pulled out of line the day before and closely questioned by Paris security. In other words, we have to believe that the Parisian officials are minimum wage hamburger flippers, or possible people can talk their way through verbal/behavioral screening.

[hedgehog]

45. oops - that should have been the shoe bomber.

[fascisthunter]

55. sorry, but that's pretty weak and why our rights have been erroding

too many choose to do as you do... be good little Americans.

[Atypical Liberal]

25. The word "profiling" has been corrupted.

The problem here is that the word "profiling" has been corrupted. Our police have in the past frequently been shown to engage in racial profiling - picking people out for scrutiny based on how they look.

The Israeli security model is not based on looks. It is not racial profiling. It is behavioral profiling. There is a huge difference.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Trust me I am aware

and racial profiling has no place in this.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[sally cat]

31. People are starting to get this.

[Aviation Pro]

26. About fucking time say I......

...15 of the 19 douchebag motherfuckers came from Saudi Arabia, time for us to have a heart-to-heart with the favorite country of Wimpy McBushfuck and his idiot son Two Shoes McFuckstick.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. And if this was the 1970s

Italian, Irish and German nationals would have to be included, indeed.

[Aviation Pro]

29. And 1980s....

...I was in Europe during the height of the Red Brigade, the IRA and those other clowns.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Absolutely

and it is amazing, isn't it?

[woo me with science]

33. K&R nt

[BridgeTheGap]

36. "fingered for further investigation" and further fingering too. n.t

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Not most of the time

as I said, I gave a very specific example that happened to me in Mexico City, which has adopted many of the methods.

When I took my bag to check onto my flight I broke into a sweat. That is a behavior cue... even if it is common with menopause.

So my increased screening included a open your luggage, go through it manually, chuckle at me packing my nail clippers in checked luggage, swap for explosives and a thank you very much.

They also looked at all my visas in my travelling documents.

It took literally five minutes... and I thanked them for doing their job.

That is what behavior looks like by the way.

Would you have a problem with that? After all that is what real security looks like. Oh and they do check things going into the cargo hold ANYWAY.

[slackmaster]

42. Searching everyone equally is merely a charade to make the system appear "fair" and unbiased

It should be biased, against whatever people are most likely to try to destroy an airplane.

I agree with you, Nadin.

K&R

:kick:

[sally cat]

47. It assumes that terrorists are distributed equally throughout the population. They're not.

[hootinholler]

54. I still don't know why they don't just use dogs

:shrug:

Much cheaper than Chertof's scanners.

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Follow the money

while they can sell each of these things for 150K and the maintenance contract, well a pooch is not that expensive, really... and the ARMY can train them too.

For the record they do use some K-9 teams, but not enough.

It is also about illusion... and many in this country don't get it... that pooch can do it better than the machine...

[hootinholler]

57. Plus the public expects dogs to smell their junk n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Well there is that

and truth be told they can be fooled too. But all can be fooled... if you are motivated enough.

[proteus_lives]

60. Profiling can save lives.

And relieve us of financial and emotional jackassary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. As I told another poster I did it as a medic

and I am sure it did save my life.

It was behavior that cued me in to a possible danger.

Most people who get shot in the chest, do not try to take their belts off reaching for something. When I checked him, nah his buckle, he was trying to take out a 25 caliber gun. I don't feel like geting shot.

Of course there is the guy who had a bag of 40 cal ammo on his right pocket, which the cops missed on the pat down... did I mention he already shot three other people? Yes, I was pissed at the cops...

and my all time favorite the guy who came at me slurred speech and wild eyes... when I looked down at his body the broken bottle was there to see...

Don't ask me why oh why I went there... I mean one was well heeled, though later on we learned involved in crime... the second was just crazy (yes they did NOT charge him, he was legally nuts, and the third was poor and very drunk and strung up on drugs)

We just called it threat assessment and scene safety. Oh and yes we dealt with each threat to keep it from killing or hurting us.