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Does the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy matter anymore?

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:38 AM
Original message
Poll question: Does the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy matter anymore?


It's been 47 years. Many, if not most, DUers weren't alive then or remember those days.

I was. And many of you know that the assassination still matters to me. However, whether they remember 1961-1963 or not, I want to know what DUers think:

Does the assassination of President Kennedy still matter?

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, it was not a lone whacko. It was a coup.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree
Kennedy was on his way to do things that very powerful interests had no reason to want to come to pass. Look up his "secret society" speech, that is widely considered to have been the trigger for the assassination.
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SamW Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. I also agree
Until the exact/real truth comes out as to who actually was behind it all, yes it matters.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Check out this series coming from Orbis Press (The Maryknollers):
JFK and the Unspeakable : Why he died and why it matters. By James Douglas

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16273

http://www.peaceactionme.org/book-review-jfk-and-unspeakable-why-he-died-and-why-it-matters



As to the poll :

Imagine our world for the last 40 years with Ted Kennedy X 3
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siligut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
10.  I am looking forward to this. Tell me the truth, I can handle it.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16273

From the book:
He knows, however, that to truly convince he must break a “conspiracy of silence that would envelop our government, our media, our academic institutions, and virtually our entire society from November 22, 1963, to the present.” This “unspeakable,” this hypnotic “collective denial of the obvious,” is sustained by a mass-media whose repeated message is that the truth about such significant events is beyond our grasp, that we will have to drink the waters of uncertainty forever. As for those who don’t, they are relegated to the status of conspiracy nuts.


It will be a good day for us "conspiracy nuts".

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. That Iraq had WMD, was a conspiracy theory - this is not.
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siligut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree with your premise.
As a long time conspiracy nut, I don't like to mince words.

Collusion: A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

Conspiracy: a secret plan or agreement to carry out an illegal or harmful act, esp with political motivation; plot.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. The new government certainly hasn't made the United States more democratic.
The nation's leadership has put guns ahead of butter for 47 years, now, much to the detriment of We the People.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. How different things would be today, had JFK lived.
Yes, it makes a tremendous difference. I fear that I will not live long enough to know what really happened. That is so wrong, but, then I remember that Caroline and other Kennedy family may likewise never know the truth.

Yet, I point to my sigline and find it devastating....
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Congo -- one country -- helps us understand how much changed.
It was called the Belgian Congo, then it became an independent state, then it was Zaire, then the Democratic Republic of Congo. Whatever it's been called, the country's been very much in a state of war -- civil and with other countries -- since the assassination of its president, Patrice Lumumba just days before President Kennedy was inaugurated. In fact, while it seems CIA had a hand in the killing, they didn't tell JFK for a few weeks after the fact.

JFK Cried for Africa

President Kennedy thought that the mineral rights of the nation belonged to the citizens of that nation -- not the colonial powers. JFK ordered the state department to change course that way, but that also was reversed after Dallas by his successor.

The Subversion of Undesirable Governments

"Undesirable" is a word that makes it easy to see others as Untermenschen and, thus, easier to abuse, rip-off, or kill. Lumumba was a personal friend of Kennedy's. I don't think JFK would have OK'd the "executive action."
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
5. Yes, a coup. And a turning point. They got away with that regime change, they tried again
and got away with a leader, they did it again and got another leader and possible President - they got away with it all within the decade. The country has never been the same because simultaneously our multi-national rulers moved forward with their plans for the world. They, who think that they will own and control this earth, accelerated their agenda.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. + 1,000
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Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. I voted "not sure" because I think most walking-around-folks don't give it much thought
anymore.

But for me personally, it still matters, it is still a raw, unbelievable and horrible memory.

It was the day our country lost it's innocence. It was the day that caused me to believe our government is tarnished and most Americans don't see that it is.


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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. JFK: Why He Died and Why It Matters is a Must Read
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 10:01 AM by Mimosa
How did we get to be in a continual state of war? How did the plutocracy take our country from us?

http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Unspeakable-Why-Died-Matters/dp/1570757550

Read JFK: Why He Died and Why It Matters by James Douglass.

Also "Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty, America's Invisible Government, and the Hidden History of the Last Fifty Years" by Russ Baker.

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secrets-Americas-Invisible-Government/dp/1608190064/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290524400&sr=1-1
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. Book review
And We Are All Mortal, June 8, 2008
By Nick Anez
Amazon Verified Purchase(What's this?)
This review is from: JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters (Hardcover)
In James W. Douglass' outstanding new book, "JFK and the Unspeakable," the author explains the title in his introduction. Coined by spiritual writer Thomas Merton, The Unspeakable refers to "an evil whose depth and deceit seemed to go beyond the capacity of words to describe." Regarding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the Unspeakable succeeded due to deniability by the nation's citizens of the horrifying truth of the event and to plausible deniability by the government agencies responsible for the murder. (Vincent Bugliosi's recent fictional paperweight is a perfect example of the plausible deniability that allows the Unspeakable to thrive.)

Many excellent books have proven that the assassination of JFK was the result of a conspiracy. Douglass verifies the certainty of the conspiracy and, as the subtitle of the book states, explains "Why He Died and Why It Matters." He scrutinizes the historical facts surrounding the assassination, from the creation of the CIA to the gradual obliteration of the freedoms upon which this nation was founded.

This book is primarily the story of John F. Kennedy who changes from a Cold Warrior to an altruistic leader willing to risk his life to ensure that the world's children will not become victims of a nuclear catastrophe. Equal time is spent on JFK's presidency as on the assassination but one of the many rewards of this book is the author's capacity to show the relationship between his policies and his death. And the book is a tragedy because it gradually becomes obvious that each step he makes toward peace steadily increases the hatred of his enemies who will eventually betray him.

It is also the story of the designated patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Moved around the country like a pawn by government agencies (as was the second "Oswald"), he was being set up as the scapegoat. Enter some despicable characters, including David Atlee Philips, James Hosty and, of course, Michael and Ruth Paine. Simultaneously, the Soviet Union was being set up as the evil empire behind the assassination, along with its satellite Cuba.

Douglass credibly illustrates the origin of the Crime of the Century. During President Truman's administration, the CIA was empowered to be a paramilitary organization with unlimited powers. Truman's successor, President Eisenhower, fell out of favor with the CIA when he planned a summit meeting with Soviet Premier Khrushchev. This was cancelled after a U.S. spy plane crashed in Russia. Eisenhower had reportedly ordered such flights cancelled and had his suspicions about who had ruined his peace plan. He subsequently issued his warning about the "military industrial complex" in his farewell address. But he didn't defy "this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry." He left that task to his successor, JFK.

The Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba was planned by the CIA to regain control of the island and to re-open the casinos for organized crime. President Kennedy refused to provide air support for the Cuban brigade because he knew that he had been lied to by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and by the CIA; the invasion had been designed to fail without U.S. support but they hadn't told this to JFK who refused to fall into their trap. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK once again enraged the CIA and the Joint Chiefs by resisting their tremendous pressure on him to take military action which would have led to nuclear war.

Following that crisis, JFK became intent on ending the Cold War by establishing a peaceful relationship with the Soviet Union. However, many CIA and Pentagon personnel believed that it was better to be "dead than red" and that it was preferable to destroy civilization rather than let the Communists rule. They also knew that war generated billions of dollars into the arms industry. As a result, they would repeatedly subvert the President's policies and isolate him within his own government. Enter some more despicable characters: Richard Bissell, Charles Cabell, Henry Cabot Lodge, Lyman Lemnitzer, Curtis LeMay and perhaps the most contemptible of all, Allen Dulles. Ironically, JFK learned to trust Khrushchev more than people within his own government.

At American University on June 10, 1963, JFK spoke about his desire for world peace. He communicated his resolve to form a new relationship with Khrushchev. He spoke about the necessity of a pursuit toward disarmament. He related his intentions to establish a Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. He acknowledged his country's past faults and recognized the Russian people as wanting peace as much as the American people. "And we are all mortal," he stated. Though this extremely important speech was ignored in the United States, it was disseminated throughout the Soviet Union, per order of Khrushchev, who was prepared to respond favorably to JFK's peace initiative. The speech also certified JFK's death warrant. With so many powerful enemies opposing his policies and hating him, JFK didn't have a chance as he was being maneuvered into the crossfire in Dallas.

President Kennedy was aware of the power of his enemies and he knew the dangers facing him. But he persevered and mandated that all U.S. personnel would be withdrawn from Vietnam; he was determined to never send in combat troops even if this meant defeat. He also refused to intervene militarily in Laos. He exchanged private letters with Khrushchev, which infuriated the CIA, and secretly initiated plans to attain rapproachement with Cuba, which further incensed the Agency. Cuba's Fidel Castro, whom the CIA hated as intensely as it hated Kennedy, was equally eager to begin an American-Cuba dialogue. In fact, Castro was meeting with a JFK representative when the President was murdered. JFK died a martyr and the forces of evil that killed him also killed his vision of peace.

Lyndon Johnson, the CIA's ally, assumed the presidency. He cancelled talks with Khrushchev and refused Castro's pleas to continue the dialogue. He reversed JFK's withdrawal plan from Vietnam as well as his plan to neutralize Laos. The military industrial complex took control of the country. The policy of plausible deniability led the way to assassinations of foreign leaders, the overthrowing of foreign governments and horrors committed all over the globe. If JFK had not been murdered, we would not have had the prolongation of the Cold War, the Vietnam War, Watergate, the purported War on Terror and the steady moral deterioration of America. Interestingly, one month after JFK's assassination, President Truman wrote an article for The Washington Post cautioning about the threat of the CIA taking over America.

The author meticulously examines the evidence and draws conclusions which ring with unassailable truth: (1) The CIA coordinated and implemented he assassination of President Kennedy, an act of treason which destroyed democracy in the U.S. (2) The Warren Commission was created to propagate lies to conceal the truth from the American people. (3)There has been a continued cover-up by successive administrations and their stooges in the mass media. (4)The murder of JFK is directly related to the current domination of the American people by powerful oppressors within a shadow government that will continue to insist that only sustained war can keep the country safe from its enemies, never admitting that they themselves are the supreme evil.

This is an exceptional book that will be used by future historians to determine the truth about the assassination and how it changed America. And it will also be used to honor John F. Kennedy as a courageous president who believed in doing God's work on earth. In doing so, he came into conflict with the Unspeakable and his life was extinguished.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Did you write that, Eddie?
It's quite good.

Everybody in the warren Commission was rewarded for affirming lies. In 1978, the House Select Committee on assassinations concluded there was a conspiarcy in the JFK assassination. And they stopped right there.

However, under oath before the HSCA, CIA Director Richard Helms admitted that Clay Shaw of New Orleans (whom DA Garrison indicted and tried for abetting the murder of JFK) was indeed a CIA employee. Other accessories may have been involved with James J. Angleton's Counterintelligence group. H. Howard Hunt being among them, as he told his son.
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. No
I just thought it was a great review of a book I must read.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. Yes it matters. The Truth is always a good thing to know
Truth matters. If you live your life based on your demand to live Truth (Truth with a capital 'T') as much as you can you haven't been a waste of skin.
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:02 AM
Original message
JFK was assassinated
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 10:26 AM by Eddie Haskell
because he tried to reign in the CIA and the Pentagon. Kennedy had signed a National Security Action Memorandum, NSAM 263 dated October 11, 1963; which ordered the withdrawal from Viet Nam of 1,000 military personnel. After Kennedy's assassination, President Lyndon B. Johnson immediately reversed his predecessor's order with his own NSAM 273 on November 26, 1963.

History proves that JFK was right and LBJ and the Pentagon were wrong. 50,000 American lives were lost for no GD reason.

It still matters because those who were behind the coup remain in control of our country.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. the first time the Bush Crime Family killed a major thorn in their
collective side, and got away Scot free.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Poppy Bush at Dealy Plaza (link to photo and info)
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 12:46 PM by Mimosa
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. Why did elites hate him?
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 10:06 AM by BolivarianHero
JFK cut their taxes and took a hard line on Castro...And yet the rich liked Ike better.
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Thank you. I'm glad someone injects reality into this conversation.
I have difficulty believing Oswald was a lone gunmen, yet at the same time, I don't see where there was that much of a departure for US policy after Kennedy's death. Kennedy was not a Saint by any stretch of the imagination and fixating on him as if he was only obscures the true nature of US policy globally and only makes it more difficult to rectify it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Read "JFK:
The Man and the Myth," by Victor Lasky. It was first published shortly before Kennedy was murdered. Lasky, an employee of the CIA, went into great detail about the "socialist threat" that President Kennedy posed.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. It will probably matter only as long
as there are those of us still alive who remember it.

Then, after we're gone, it probably won't matter so much anymore.


It's the same thing, isn't it, as the bombing of Pearl Harbor. It mattered very much to those who remembered it. Not so much to people who hadn't even been born yet.

Isn't that the way it always is?

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GrpCaptMandrake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. We talked about this last night on The H.O.R.N.
The number of things that likely would've been different is staggering.

Start with that dirty old creep in the photo next to JFK: a Nixon win in 1968 is almost inconceivable if JFK lives. Take it from there. Among other things, the Bush Thugs remain a grabbing, grasping desperate clique of climbers, and little more.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. One of many events that changed history but is now part of it.
The Kennedy assassination undoubtedly changed the course of history dramatically (we'll never know for sure just how), but its relevance to modern politics is very easy to overstate - in particular, the various associated conspiracy theories do not deserve to be taken seriously.
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Overstated perhaps, but
the extent to which powerful forces can manipulate the truth was demonstrated by the Warren Commission's report. When faced with a lie, the failure to search for truth is unacceptable in a free and democratic society. It is our duty as citizens to demand the truth.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I think the Onion skewered this best.
"Warren commission admits to killing JFK"
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Heh, that wasn't the only one.
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northoftheborder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. The Grassy Knoll was not just a theory.
Thom Hartmann and another man (can't remember his name) have been researching this for decades. Their book is soon to be published. I learned this while listening to a rerun of yesterday's (Monday) Hartmann show in the middle of the night, couldn't sleep, and caught only the last 30 minutes of it.

Bits and parts of who did it, and why JFK was killed have leaked out, have been puzzled over, for years. This book will put all this together with confirmed research of the whole story. Many have known about the whole thing, including Robert Kennedy, Al Haig, Justice Warren, many others. Apparently the public knowing of the real story would have sent the country into WW3. I won't go into trying to tell it, because I didn't hear it all, and it is very complex. But we won't have to wait long to know the whole thing. And yes, Oswald was not the only shooter, and Kennedy was killed by a bullet to the front of his head. The body, the investigation, everything was kept secret, covered up, for national security reasons.
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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. And a movie is being made
to come out next year, based on their book.
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NuclearDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. A thousand times, YES
JFK was the last true American President.

November 22, 1963...the date the MIC struck the deathblow to our nation.
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northoftheborder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. Book: Legacy of Secrecy: The Long Shadow of the JFK Assassination
Authors, Waldron and Hartmann. Actually this book has been out previously, and this is an update with more information. Available from Amazon, even in Kindle. I'm behind the news - I thought it was just now being published. I'm very interested, because I have always felt the real truth was hidden, but apparently my gut feeling about who was behind it, is wrong.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. Spartacus Edu board is where to learn a lot too (link included)
Not just anybody can join Spartacus. It's open only to educators, scolars and authors. I am not a member but I have spent many hours reading at their discussion board on the assassinations.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKindex.htm
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yes, because it psychologically impacted how an entire generation views politics.
Especially in combination with the other assassinations. That impact of that is still felt today and it's affect is usually a negative one.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. It surely matters
I was alive and remember (10 years old at the time)that awful weekend well. The world changed and even then you could sense it. It was a COUP!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Yes. It marked the beginning of the end of the American Empire.



:hi: ¡Hola compay!

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. Every right winger I know online or off believes the 'Lone Nut' lie.
Even in the face of the HSCA conclusion of a definite conspiracy, rightwingers will propagate the 'Oswald acted alone' theory.I wonder why???

And today's CIA has contract employees who join JFK, RFK, MLK assassination forums to derail them. They ruined the JFK movie discussion board on IMDB, the movie site.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. no matter whodunit, it was a pivotal moment in american history
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 01:44 PM by unblock
in terms of politics, in terms of legislation, in terms of social change, even in terms of our culture.

it's actually hard to conceive just how differently we might have turned out had the assassination been foiled.

would civil rights legislation have been stronger? or would it have passed at all?

would we have gotten as deep into vietnam? as a lame duck president, jfk might have been willing to get out prior to the 1968 election in a way that lbj couldn't bring himself to do.


i am rather strongly convinced that these days, certain elements make serious, highly credible threats against key players in american politics, threats made more credible by the jfk assassination. i rather believe that clinton was kept in check to an extent, and certainly believe that legislators, who have far less protection, are manipulated by death threats. i think the successful jfk assassination emboldened certain elements.
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. You know it does.
This experience scarred the nation so visibly, we're ashamed and aghast at the notion of having to look at ourselves, knowing what mindless monsters we've since become, perhaps all tainted by this one big huge original lie so long ago. A lie we let them tell us we swallowed. A lie that his been followed by so many bigger and more bogus waves of disinformation and propaganda, all sellable on the grounds we bought the original. Back to that black root I say, cut away at it from the source and perhaps its infection will stop spreading.

Don't know if any that counts for thinking, but it is what it is.

OP Recommended.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. The assassinations of Diem, JFK, MLK, RFK, Bhutto, etc all matter especially John F. Kennedy
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 02:38 PM by bobthedrummer
and introduction of another false piece of American exceptionalism to the world of ideas-the "lone nut assassin"--which is total horseshit still believed by the "lets move on crew" that doesn't want to fight for truth, justice and what we were brainwashed into believing about the American way-that we, the people have the reins of all power in a constitutional democracy--and that "it can't happen here"-i.e. a coup)

Yep, it matters to some of US indeed.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Allen Dulles, fired CIA chief and Warren Commission straw boss, handed out a book to that effect...
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. ^ Must read Octafish's link re: Warren Commission coverup
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 06:30 PM by Mimosa
Excerpt from link:

The HSCA reached much different conclusions about the JFK assassination than the Warren Commission reached. Among other things, the HSCA concluded Kennedy was probably killed by a conspiracy, that four shots were fired, that there were two gunmen, that one of the shots came from the grassy knoll, that Jack Ruby had extensive Mafia ties, that Ruby lied about how he got into the basement of the police department to shoot Oswald, and that Ruby's story about why he killed Oswald was false.

Critics of the Warren Commission have identified numerous errors, omissions, and shortcomings in the commission's investigation, many of which were also identified by the HSCA. Here are some of them:

1. The commission failed to produce a credible explanation for the wounding of bystander James Tague in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. The Tague wounding is evidence that more than three shots were fired.

2. The commission missed, or ignored, indications in the Zapruder film (1) that a shot was fired prior to frame 166, i.e., before the limousine passed beneath the oak tree on Elm Street, and (2) that another shot was fired while the sixth-floor gunman's view of the limousine would have been obscured and even blocked, i.e., at around frames 185-190.

3. The commission misrepresented the results of its own wound ballistics tests with regard to both the single-bullet theory and the fatal head shot.

4. The commission failed to mention in its report that one of its members, Senator Richard Russell, had very strong doubts about the single-bullet theory, and that two other members of the commission shared some of Russell's doubts. We now know that Russell outright rejected the theory, and that the commission suppressed from the official record Russell's objections to it. Russell forced one last executive meeting of the commission, in order to put on the record his objections to the single-bullet theory. The meeting was held on September 18, 1964. At the meeting, Russell distributed copies of a memo in which he outlined his objections to the single-bullet scenario. Russell naturally expected that the minutes of the meeting would reflect his objections. However, someone created a fake transcript of the meeting. The existing transcript of the September 18 meeting says nothing about Russell's strong objections to the single-bullet theory. Nor does it mention that Russell forced the meeting to have his objections recorded for the official record. Nor does it mention that Russell handed out a copy of his written objections at the meeting. None of these things is even mentioned in the extant transcript of the meeting. When the fake transcript of the meeting was brought to light in 1968, Russell was very upset after reading it. The Assassination Records Review Board attempted to locate the original transcript, but was unable to do so. (Incidentally, one year after the bogus transcript was released, Russell stated in a filmed interview that he was not convinced Oswald had acted alone.)

5. The commission rejected the account of Silvia Odio on the basis of bogus evidence and unproven assertions. The Odio incident indicates that Oswald was involved with anti-Castro Cuban exiles who were talking about killing Kennedy or that someone was impersonating Oswald while he was in Mexico City. Apparently the Warren Commission didn't want to deal with either implication of the Odio incident, so it dismissed Odio's story.

6. The commission never even mentioned that in the Zapruder film Kennedy's head and upper body snap violently backward and to the left when the fatal head shot occurs. In fact, when the commission printed the frames from the film, it reversed two key frames of the head shot sequence. When this fact was made public, the changing of the order of the frames was blamed on a "printing error."

7. The commission erroneously claimed Jack Ruby did not have extensive ties to the Mafia. The HSCA later proved this claim to be utterly false. The record indicates the commission suppressed evidence of Ruby's links to organized crime. Dr. David Scheim points out the following:

Benign excuses . . . fail to cover the Commission's gross mishandling of its second target of investigation, Jack Ruby. In early news reports and in voluminous FBI files, one fact plainly emerged: Ruby was affiliated with the Mob--the same organization with the clear motive and means to murder President Kennedy. But amazingly, the Commission concluded that there was "no credible evidence that Jack Ruby was active in the criminal underworld." This bizarre reversal of reality was noted by Congressman Steward McKinney in a question to an FBI spokesman during the House Assassination hearings:

"Wasn't it pretty well known to the FBI that Jack Ruby, No. 1, was a member of organized crime; No. 2, he ran a strip joint and had been somewhat commonly referred to as a supplier of both women and booze to political and police figures in the city of Dallas?"

"Didn't you find it a little difficult to accept the Warren Commission's final output on Ruby with the knowledge that the FBI had put into the commission?"

In a similar vein, Time noted how "the Warren Commission failed abysmally to pursue leads linking Oswald's own assassin, Jack Ruby, to the Mob."

Indeed, it was only by the crudest suppression and distortion of evidence that the Warren Commission could hide Ruby's Mob connection. Again and again, materials in the National Archives files relating to organized crime were omitted from the 26 volumes of hearings and exhibits published by the Commission. Sometimes, documents were published in the hearings and exhibits excluding the particular pages dealing with underworld involvement. In one instance, the paragraphs reporting Ruby's frequent association with the Mafia boss of Dallas were blanked out of an otherwise perfect photoreproduction.

Even after such censorship, however, many more clues to Ruby's Syndicate involvement remained in the published hearings and exhibits on which the Commission's report was based. For its absolution of Ruby, therefore, the Commission was forced into such audacious sleights of hand as the previously quoted gem: "Virtually all of Ruby's Chicago friends stated he had no close connection with organized crime. The Commission neglected to report that one of the cited "Chicago friends" was in fact a top Mafia executioner and that five others had assorted criminal involvements. (The Mafia Killed President Kennedy, London: Virgin Publishing, 1988, pp. 253-254)

Incredibly, Burt Griffin, one of the two commission attorneys who had been assigned to investigate Ruby, told the HSCA, over a decade after the assassination, that he'd never heard of Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante, two of the biggest Mafia bosses in the country (G. Robert Blakey, Fatal Hour: The Assassination of President Kennedy By Organized Crime, New York: Berkley Books, 1992, p. 93). Equally incredibly, Griffin said that at the time of the commission's investigation he didn't think the Mafia had any motive to kill Kennedy (Blakey, Fatal Hour, pp. 93-94).

8. The commission accepted Ruby's doubtful story about how he gained access to the basement of the police department to shoot Oswald. The HSCA rejected Ruby's belated story, noting that the available evidence overwhelmingly indicated Ruby's story was false.

9. The commission used faulty logic and unreasonable criteria to reject the accounts of witnesses whose reports suggested or proved a conspiracy was involved. Yet, when it came to witnesses whose stories at least seemed to support the lone-gunman theory, the commission bent over backwards to accept them.

10. The commission brazenly misrepresented the results of its rifle tests. In those tests, which supposedly proved Oswald could have shot Kennedy in the manner alleged by the commission, three Master-rated marksmen missed the head and neck area of the target boards 20 out of 21 times, and some of their misses were far apart and even missed the human silhouette on the target boards, even though the target boards were stationary, even though the marksmen fired from an elevation of only 30 feet and were allowed to take as much time as they desired for the first shot, and even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire their shots. Those rifle tests showed it was highly unlikely that a mediocre marksman like Oswald could have shot President Kennedy. We now know that one of the commission staff members, Wesley Liebeler, was very critical of the commission's handling of the evidence relating to the rifle tests and Oswald's marksmanship. He warned in an internal memo that critical people would not take the commission's claims about Oswald's alleged shooting performance seriously. But the commission ignored Liebeler's memo and cited the rifle tests as evidence that Oswald could have performed the alleged shooting feat.

11. On a related note, the commission created the false impression that Oswald was proficient with a rifle and that he had ample practice with the alleged murder weapon.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Even when I was a kid back in '64 the fact was that a USMC "defector" to the USSR
that just happened to be "friendly" with folks like David Ferie et al. and married a KGB officer's "niece" and then wound up back in the USA with a job at Childs Stovall that required a security clearance-well, yep-it was all horseshit then as well as now...especially that US patented spook signature "lone nut assassin".
Btw, Happy Thanksgiving to all!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yes.
Definitely.
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rampart Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
40. it is the most significant event of my generation
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. JFK's death still matters. It was a huge turning point & where we should start connecting the dots
of the evil direction this country has taken ever since. :cry:
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. But, only as much as everything past the first fifteen words in our Constitution.
Without justice, we are a shell company that deserves to fall.

I want justice. It is still worth fighting for.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. I was a very little boy (4 years old) when it happened. So it did not
touch me personally (at least not directly).

However, I think a strong case exists that there would have been no U.S. combat forces introduced into Vietnam following a JFK re-election in 1964. Just in that one area alone, hell yes, his assassination matters.

Furthermore, if one accepts the full implications of Douglas' argument, JFK and Kruschev might have indeed accomplished actual nuclear disarmament, not merely arms control.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. Absolutely
Given the great amount of evidence that the assassination was an organized coup by powerful forces, it is especially important.

Some might say that even if that was the case, we don't know that similar forces could do the same thing today. My answer to that is that is that, despite the incontravertable evidence that there was more than one shooter, the official government line has always been that it was the work of a lone gunman. The fact that the crime has never been acknowledged for what it is by our government makes it all the more likely that something similar will happen in the future when faced with a powerful political figure who seems likely to greatly upset the status quo. Indeed, many believe that this fact alone has caused U.S. political figures to be much more "careful" about upsetting the status quo than they otherwise would be.
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felix_numinous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
49. Yes and the underlying message of that assassination,
followed by RFK and MLK was an unmistakable show of power. The coverup was a show of power, along with all the other shock and awe events that followed. To have a public event such as an assassination or bombing, and have a blatant coverup with no hope of justice forces the public to accept lies for truth. We on the left have been wounded by these public displays without justice because what followed these events was a strong move to the right--and we have not recovered since.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
50. Blood, Money & Power...How LBJ Killed J.F.K.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3120010&mesg_id=3121565

Another excellent book on the subject I highly recommend. The author is Barr McClellan, father of the former Bush press secretary, Scott McClellan. His law firm in Texas acted as LBJ's attorney from the inception of his (Johnson's) career. The book is riveting and mentions several details now being uncovered once again through other venues. It also includes verified documentation.

Sam
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Mazhatsuit Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. IMPROTANT: EVERYONE CHECK THIS!!!!
I present to you exceedingly convincing evidence of who was behind the deaths of the above mentioned men, and the reasons why. The following is an incredible six part series, made of entirely of stock footage and audio clips arranged in a systematic, chronological order. Over ten hours of it. There is no narration leading you along, putting a spin on things; only archival recordings that paint a montage of the hidden truth. I implore everyone to watch these with an open mind. But be warned, you may experience a paradigm shift and a changed world view on the nature of recent American history.
(PS: part 1 has some annoying synthesizer music; please try to look past it)

Part 1: The Assassinations of Kennedy and Oswald
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=666048701355447870#

Part 2: The "Why" of it all
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5335724479269105967#

Part 3: LBJ, Hoover and others
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2334637168204169083#

Part 4: The RFK assassination as never seen before
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=679700833693499618#

Part 5: The RFK assassination continued, MK ULTRA + Jonestown massacre
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8273110340777778333#

Part 6: The MLK Assassination
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2596003995912605454#

I need to add that part six, about the MLK assasination, cuts off. Once you watch to the end, you can continue watching the rest of part 6 on the following youtube links:

Evidence Of Revision - Part 6 - 9 of 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtCriFMIsIQ&feature=related @ 5:27 onwards

Evidence Of Revision - Part 6 - 10 of 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqMuGa499I&feature=related

Evidence Of Revision - Part 6 - 11 of 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P23DbyBTISQ&feature=related

Evidence Of Revision - Part 6 - 12 of 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCM-pqZbhQA&feature=related

Evidence Of Revision - Part 6 - 13 of 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRiwQU7IyJY&feature=related

Peace
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Thanks for posting.
Welcome to DU.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
53. a guy stops an invasion of Cuba, de-escalates a nuclear conflict with the Soviets
and arguably wanted to de-escalate Vietnam.

Today, could any president even consider doing those things?
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
55. This right-wing coup started in the 30's.
When Dubya's grandfather tried to overthrow FDR. I believe Kennedy's assassination ties into that right-wing coup that started. It became successful with the "election" (if you call it that) of Ronald Reagan, escalated under Bush I and II, and ultimately ended with Citizen's United. Nearly a century of these fuckers trying to rule us, and they have done it successfully.
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