Our country has been stolen from us. Our lives have been stolen from us.

[Cyrano]

How secure are you feeling these days? Is your job secure? Are your possesions secure? Are your investments secure? Are you waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the future? Has life become burdensome?

You’re not alone, unless you’re incredibly rich.

At present, whether you want to admit it or not, most of us are owned. We are owned by Oil Companies, Big Pharma, Banks, Wall Street, the medical insurance industry, and many others. We are property to be milked, bled dry, and discarded.

And if you think you’re part of some entity called the “middle class,” you’re living in a delusion. The middle class has just about ceased to exist and you’re only a few paychecks away from disaster.

Don’t blame yourself for getting here. We’re all responsible because we all let ourselves get conned, raped and bludgeoned by those who run/own everything, and those who act as their shills -- people we call politicians.

We never saw it coming because it crept up so slowly and quietly. And my guess is that most people are still clueless as to what has happened to them.

What happened was that we had a brief “Camelot” moment that lasted from about 1945 to 1980 during which time the ancient evils couldn’t get a foot hold. Then, those ancient evils reawakened with a vengeance. You know what they are: Bigotry, hatred and an insatiable, all consuming greed. Those in power told you that these evils were virtues and far too many bought into the lie.

Shortly after that, hate radio came into our lives, followed by hate television. And it’s been a downhill propaganda sled ride ever since.

It’s my belief that our time is limited. Before long, the criminal psychotics who run almost everything will decide that America is dispensable. After all, the large markets of the 21st century will be China and India. Americans won’t have enough left to make it worth the while of those who own just about everything.

Is there a way for the peasants to rise up and reclaim America? We thought we were doing that in 2008, but it didn’t seem to work out too well for us. So what’s our alternative? Do we sit around waiting for our own funerals?

I know this post is depressing, but it’s my view of our current reality. And if you agree with all or part of it, where do we go from here? What can we realistically do to stop our slide into oblivion?

[BanTheGOP]

1. Ban the GOP...Duh!!!

It is the republican PARTY, or its predecessor organizations, that has been the key factor in EVERY PROBLEM this country has faced since its inception. Destroy capitalism, militarism, and elitism, and this world would have been a lot better off. But it is the republican Party that has always been the world's most destructive influence, and until it is utterly destroyed along with its minions, we are doomed. Pure and simple.

[ixion]

2. I'm sorry, but the Dems were there, too

When the so-called 'war' on (some) drugs was declared, the Dems were right there.

When the so-called 'war' on terror was declared, the Dems were only too happy to play along.

And so on, and so on, and so on.

[Catherina]

14. Think about what you just wrote. The Dems support capitalism, militarism, and elitism

as faithfully as the Republicans do.

The problem is capitalism, of which the other two are a part.

We are doomed unless capitalism, which exploits anyone and anything for profit, is replaced with a more humane system.

Just keep asking yourself "where does the profit come from" and things will start to gel.

We the people deserve a better type of representation than either party is willing to give us.

[BanTheGOP]

23. Note I said "republicanist"...not "republican"

The term "republicanist" is the term I use to portray any capitalist, non-progressive tyranny against the vast majority of peaceful humanity. The republican Party, of course, is the financial and "political" manisfestation of the republicanist Agenda, but the fact is that the movement itself is what is despotic, and this unfortunately includes many who wear the (D) with their name.

The only viable solution, of course, is to ban the GOP itself by using RICO statutes from denuding it from its ill gotten funding. We have enough political diversity among the Democratic, Green, Peace and Freedom, and various socialist parties to ensure a rich, progressive discourse of political interaction once we get rid of the scourge of human waste known as Republicans.

[ladjf]

30. Yes. The "..ist" broadens the meaning to suggest a system of

thought, i.e. a philosophy. nt

[kelly1mm]

45. You may ban the Republican Party but the members would simply

either form a new party of co opt another. Or are you sugesting that conservatives have no voice in your hypothetical? I am not too sure how that would work and be constitutional and/or fair. Can you elaborate?

[BanTheGOP]

46. Elaboration is frankly unnecessary, but here goes...

The fact that one has to elaborate on justifying what most decent people would call "criminal activity" is baffling, but if you say so.

1. Making money at the expense of an enslaved working class is Elaboration Point 1.
2. Destroying the planet's ecosystem to maintain corporate profits funneled to republicanist heathens is Elaboration Point 2.
3. Ensuring that there is a permanent rift between African Americans and prosperity is Elaboration Point 3.
4. Denying basic medical services to the vast majority of decent people to funneling all medical procedures to the republicanist elite is Elaboration Point 4.

I can go on and on and go all the way to Elaboration Point X. But I respect the intelligence of people here and don't have to belabor the point.

[kelly1mm]

48. Thanks for that. My question was what would you do with the conservative

voters. Say the GOP is outlawed. The conservatives either form a new party or co opt the "New Democratic" party and win a good block of seats and enact the old GOP agenda.

Basically I am asking if you believe in democracy?

[Glassunion]

77. Simple...

I would distract them with a 24/7 channel of reruns of Sara Palin's Alaska and give them all free etch-a-sketches with one broken knob during election season.

[BanTheGOP]

97. Since the Party relies on flawed legal premises in the first place

...the "conservatives" would not be able to create their own party. Let's face it: we do NOT allow murderers, thieves, or child molesters to have THEIR own political party to advance THEIR criminal agenda. Same thing for the republicanist agenda. Tax "policies" which destroy humanity just as much, if not more, than murder or thievery (but not as much as child molestation), then such policies cannot be advanced in a political manner. Hence, "conservatives" would either conform to lawful progressive/democratic voting protocols, or not vote at all.

Again, this is NOT denying their right to vote. However, defining what constitutes LEGALITY is a fundamental bedrock of a progressive, domestic society.

[kelly1mm]

130. But what if the majority of voters do not want a progressive democracy?

What it soulds like you are proposing is a situation like in the old Soviet Union wherein they had elections for offices but only approved candidates were on the ballot. It seems to me that if we progressives cannot win the political arguments perhaps we need to try harder on the battlefield of ideas, not simply outlaw ideas we disagree with.

[Cal33]

159. You are correct. Someone did come up with a very appropriate

new idea: Today it isn't so much left vs. right and Dem. vs. Repub. Today
it's "Corporations vs. you and me." The "right-wingers" don't know it yet,
but when the time comes the corporatists will do them out of every red cent,
too, even when they are working for the corporatists now. Gratitude and
loyalty are not among their virtues.

I think it will take time for this idea to catch on.

[lark]

177. Sounds good, but I'm afriad this is totally unworkable

When the corporations control the media and thru their ownership of of the voting machines control the results of all votes, how can we get out the message? It's not published or heard on air and so disappears.

I wish I knew a way out of this morass, but frankly can't see one other than cutting and running to a different, less corporate controlled, country. That's just a personal resolution, see no resolution for my beloved & being destroyed every day country. I'm hoping someone else, someone smarter or more creative can see a way to produce real change for the better. Haven't seen it yet, but still hoping.

[NorthCarolina]

169. The DLC would welcome the ex-GOP candidates with open arms.

They form a hive-mind anyway, so it would be a natural fit.

[Catherina]

55. Touche. You did. But do you think the Democrats serve moneyed interests any less?

If the GOP were gone tomorrow, do you think the Democratic Party would kowtow less to money interests? They both serve the same master. One serves very openly and the other pretends to be an opposition party while not actually opposing anything.

I think 90% of representatives in each party needs to go.

[sendero]

85. Exactly....

....and how anyone could fail to see this after 2 years of Obama is beyond me. It couldn't BE more obvious.

Yeah, some Dems TALK a good game, but their actions don't resemble their talk. Enough already.

[awoke_in_2003]

88. one party going by two names. nt

[Quantess]

124. Yes. It is becoming painfully apparent.

Even Bush irritated a lot of purist, old-school Republicans by not being a true conservative in many ways. Bush certainly was a corporatist, though.

Obama really hasn't done much to undo the corporate ass-kissing, in fact, Obama plays right along.

[blindpig]

59. Hardly matters as long as Capitalism is in place.

The Democratic Party is as complicit as those others. Economics are the prime motive of society and as economic power is concentrated in the hands of the few we cannot but expect that they dominate politics for their advantage. The differences that we are noticing, rapacity on steroids, is a matter of historical development, not 'bad actors'.

The only solution is to dispose of Capitalism.

[bjobotts]

71. 375 thousand people making more than a million/yr in US and 44% are in congress.

Wanna work for .60cents/hr with no benefits or regulations on corporations? That will bring the jobs back and make us competitive with China and India.

It's called "Collapse". Loss of top soil so food only grows in chemicals with dirt thrown on them, Forest disappearing, Ozone layer being depleted, Drinking water becoming scarce from pollution, Oceans polluted and poisoned from oil and chemicals killing all sea life, air becoming unbreatheable and climate change leading to global warming...all of which the wealthy believe will not affect them.

And now the solution killing GOP and a few corporate dems are lobbyist's pets leading us into another republican great depression with the 24hr/d, 7/d/wk corporate propaganda TV leading the misinformation campaign and propaganda and you feel powerless and afraid not knowing how to change it. Collapse is here...from nature.

[defendandprotect]

99. Exactly ... do we expect this millionaire/multi-millionaire Congress to change anything-?

[blindpig]

153. They would have us wallow in despair, but....

"If the workers of the world want to win, all they have to do is recognize their own solidarity. They have nothing to do but fold their arms and the world will stop. The workers are more powerful with their hands in their pockets than all the property of the capitalists."

from an IWW pamphlet, June 1905

We can, must do this.

As for the precarious condition of our environment, this is more of a result of capitalist methods, predicated upon the profit motive, than anything else. If we can stop that we are on the road to recovery. This adds urgency to our necessary course.

[maryf]

168. The urgency to protect our natural resources

is something to add to the General Strike's agenda, the hydro-fracking and Gulf accidents are strong cases in point. PA farmers voice distress here:

http://www.the-leader.com/news/x1682974400/Pa-farmer-Natural-gas-drilling-a-nightmare

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9622213

editted to fix links...

[Joe Fields]

94. I would make a distinction. It isn't capitalism.

It is "unbridled" capitalism that has become our downfall. Capitalism run amok. Capitalism with no checks and balances. Capitalism without regulation of any sort.

THAT is what has destroyed our country.

[defendandprotect]

100. Capitalism is doing what it is intended to do .... move wealth of nations and natural resources...

from the many to the few -- and it has repeatedly done that quite successfully.

That IS capitalism . . . in its natural state.

The New Deal brought us REGULATED CAPITALISM which is another animal entirely --

and one which the elites want no part of. Took them 60 years to overturn the

New Deal -- though they grew steadily richer along the way. They're not going back --

and we shouldn't either!!

Let's move on to democratic socialism -- or any other system which has a humane base --

and then we'll label it!

[Joe Fields]

102. it looks to me like you are disagreeing to agree.

this country thrived on regulated capitalism, which is what I was talking about. It has been dismantled effectively by de-regulating almost every aspect of capitalism.

Definition of Capitalism

"Capitalism" is conventionally defined along economic terms such as the following:

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
Source: Dictionary.com

This is an example of a definition by non-essentials. An essential definition of capitalism is a political definition:

Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights.
Source: Capitalism.org

In order to have an economic system in which "production and distribution are privately or corporately owned", you must have individual rights and specifically property rights. The only way to have an economic system fitting the first definition is to have a political system fitting the second definition. The first is an implication of the second. Because the second, political, definition is fundamental and the cause of the first, it is the more useful definition and is preferable.

[defendandprotect]

118. If we have time, I'm sure we'll work it out --- but disagree with you ....

We had regulated capitalism -- that's not what elites want and they overturned

it with many citizens harmed over decades.

And, in order to do it they had to buy out our government and our elected officials.

The natural state of capitalism is NOT regulated capitalism --

Capitalism is an invention of the Vatican made necessary when Feudalism was no longer

sufficient to run their Papal States. Capitalism has only been with us a few hundred

years.

Citizens are free to have any kind of an economic system they wish -- the basis of it

should be humanity -- not a dollar bill. Nature -- not a dollar bill.

Capitalism is about exploitation of nature and humans.

The damage done to nature is suicidal -- we may not recover from it -- it is extremely

serious -- and nature will play the final cards.

[tiny elvis]

160. firstly, capitalism.org's self serving definition

is not distinct from self serving definitions of other poli philosophies
secondly, the individual rights and property rights claimed by capitalists do not apply to anyone outside the system's limits as described by the freemen of the system
thus our freemen have benefited from slavery within our property rights and rape and pillage outside our system's protection
finally, it is the observable nature of capitalism to work toward supremacy over any limiting or competing organs within a system which uses or allows it, breaking down ideals and principled frameworks to rediscover the primitive axiom that might makes right
the profound efficiency of modern capitalism powered by industrialism cannot be checked by wistful yearnings for justice and peace
it is only helped in gaining supremacy by defining it as essential to our system

[blindpig]

157. I would profoundly disagree.

What we have is very much Capitalism, consider this form of economic organization throughout it's history. The post WWII 'regulated capitalism', was a historical anomaly, the result of the US being the only industrial power left standing and the necessity of Capitalism to 'keep up appearances' in the face of a rival system. Small surprise that the hammer really started coming down when that rival left the stage. The American 'middle class' was defended by Soviet tanks, but now we must defend ourselves.

[defendandprotect]

98. 1000% ....

Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion -- and its economic system =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[Creative]

70. Capitalism is the problem...? No, people gaming the system is the problem.

Capitalism is the only economic system that recognizes the rights of the individual. Other economic systems place a higher value on the rights of the collective.

Thus, capitalism is the only economic system that is compatible with freedom.

[kestrel91316]

93. The collective (aka the species) SHOULD have more rights than any individual.

[Raksha]

143. Good point - and if the SPECIES has more rights, those rights extend to far more individuals

than under capitalism, where so-called "individual rights," or "liberty" as they are so fond of calling it, can only be exercised by relatively few individuals, namely the ultra-rich.

[MNBrewer]

156. such as what?

forced procreation? for the good of the species....

[kestrel91316]

174. I say "rights" - you say "forced procreation". Your response is truly

mind-boggling and incomprehensible in its snark or obtuseness.

So you oppose the right of ALL humans to clean air, clean water, edible food, shelter from the elements, the pursuit of happiness, etc, simply because they are human? O-kay.

[Creative]

187. No, you do not gain more rights by being the member of a collective.

[defendandprotect]

101. Capitalism is the very opposite of democracy and freedom --

Watch capitalism enslaving people all over the world --

Yes -- we were taught in our schools that democracy and capitalism are synonymous --

that's not true.

A commonwealth is a collective -- WE the people are a collective --

the greatest good for the greatest number of people --


Americans have to wake up to the suicidal nature of capitalism -- its deadly exploitation

of nature and humans. The greatest threat that we face is Global Warming, created by

capitalism's war on nature.

Captalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system -- power for the feew at the top and

control over the rest.

[Joe Fields]

106. says you....

Again, I will say that it is the massive deregulation of a capitalistic society that becomes its downfall. Not the system of capitalism in a democratic society.

If you are talking about pure greed, then yes, capitalism is a terrible thing. But capitalism can work, and has worked for our society...When well regulated.

[defendandprotect]

120. The natural state of capitalism is NOT its regulated state ....

The very purpose of capitalism is exploitation for profit --

exploitation of nature and humans.

Yes -- FDR did regulate capitalism and it worked -- but elites have returned capitalism

to its natural state.

We need to move on to economic democracy -- democratic socialism --

And we need to stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill.


Again -- we made capitalism work by regulating it -- that's over. It's not something

elites will stand for -- they've used 50 years and more of political violence to overturn

those regulations!!

Unregulated capitalism -- its natural state -- is merely organized crime.

[Joe Fields]

135. Wasn't trying to be mean spirited. We are just at odds with definitions.

Capitalism today is nothing like it was when I was growing up, which was nothing like that was 20 years before.

We have come full circle, even with the resurgence of sweat shops. What we are witnessing today is crime, in the guise of business. Companies and multi-national corporations literally are getting away with murder. The BP debacle is one of the latest examples.

I would like to go back to strict regulation, but I do not believe we can. Which makes me wonder where that leaves us, besides truly screwed.

It looks like things will not truly change until Americans get their collective heads out of their asses.

[defendandprotect]

158. Agree with you it is definition ---

America has really never had economic democracy -- even on the best days of

REGULATED capitalism.

We have only had this economic system with us for a few hundred years --

it comes from fascist roots -- Feudalism.

As everyone understands corporatism it is fascism.

The right wing will always take you badwards -- into Medieval times if they can --

they'll return to child labor when they can.


We have come full circle, even with the resurgence of sweat shops. What we are witnessing today is crime, in the guise of business. Companies and multi-national corporations literally are getting away with murder. The BP debacle is one of the latest examples.

Agree -- the overturning of NEW DEAL regulations made this latest crime wave possible.

But if you go back and read some of FDR's comments, you will see that he was fighting

capitalism's corruption and crime at that time. The "Robber Barons" as he frequently

called them. However, I agree with those who say that FDR regulated capitalism in order

to save it. And we have just saved capitalism from itself again in the bail outs --

there was no "failure" -- it was simply corruption and crime. Every time we do that, we

set ourselves up for another round of capitalism's corruption and crime.

It's time that we recognize what the rest of the world has long recognized -- capitalism

is intended to create a few wealthy -- and many poor.

Keep in mind also that this overturning of NEW DEAL regulations and the rise of the right

comes not in friendly debate in Congress -- it's based on a half century now of in plein air

political violence. That's the only way it could be done -- and it's the way it was done.

There were also threats to FDR's life -- a very active attempted coup by the wealthy.

Capitalism is a tool of elitism.



I would like to go back to strict regulation, but I do not believe we can. Which makes me wonder where that leaves us, besides truly screwed.

Think we're in total agreement on what you're saying here -- but I'll let my post stand as it

is, nonetheless.

We are free to set any economic system we wish -- theoretically. Native Americans used sea shells.

But what we should be looking for is economic democracy -- not a system based on wealth for the few.

It looks like things will not truly change until Americans get their collective heads out of their asses.

America is a liberal nation but it's getting difficult for Americans to see and understand that

because we have had so many decades now of right wing propaganda poisoning polotical discussion.

However, in order to hold power the right wing has to suppress any bit of truth -- and you can

see that attempt in what has happened to our "free press" -- they basically have to control all

media -- publications, perioidicals, radio, TV -- and eventually I assume, the internet.

Every bit of truth is like a pebble hitting a mirror -- it shatters their myths.

Keep your eye on violence -- it is the calling card of the right wing and the only way they

can rise. I think really that's what the Koch Bros. T-baggers are all about -- introducing a

new and higher level of disruptive and near-violent political bloc into our already damaged

political system.


:)

[Creative]

188. The most advanced civilizations in the world are those that embrace capitalism.

This is an undeniable fact of reality.

[maryf]

162. The rights of the collective

everyone's needs are taken care of...

the universal declaration of human rights is not compatible with capitalism, too much profit loss.

Especially consider Article 25:

1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Considering the above, do you still think folks are free?? If their survival needs aren't even being met, how can they enjoy other rights? they are struggling just to survive...

When people are considered commodities and consumers and their labor is considered profit loss, very few people are free from wage slavery...

[Creative]

186. Freedom, in the US, is recognized by the Constitution, not "the universal declaration

of human rights." A collective has no rights other than the rights of each of its individual members. You do not obtain the right to enslave others by becoming a member of a group. In other words, if the things you listed were rights, the farmer, the grocer, the doctor, and the care-givers would become your slaves, if you are unable to provide for yourself.

If your survival needs are not being met, you have the right to pursue (pursuit of happiness) that which is in your own self-interest. But your self-interest cannot be achieved by the enslavement or murder of others. Rather, it must be achieved by the application of your aptitude and abilities and voluntary interaction with others. "Voluntary" is the key principle, for any association that involves coercion or force is absent of freedom.

Never forget that history's worst dictators (Hitler, Stalin, et al.) were collectivists.

[txlibdem]

140. We are doomed under Capitalism

So true. There is no other way to view it.

What we need is to transition to a cashless society where the government provides the necessities of life, liberty and happiness. The news media is forbidden from being for-profit, forbidden to be owned by anyone but the employees of that media outlet. Anti-trust laws need to be followed and all natural resources need to be nationalized immediately.

Each citizen of the state of Alaska gets a check from the government each year for a portion of the oil profits. The citizens of Kuwait get all their money from the government due to a share of oil profits. Americans should be living free and clear because of the natural resources this great land has to offer, but instead the politicians have given away those resources to companies (who then become the most profitable in history... Exxon).

Let us nationalize everything then create a socialist economy with a Democracy as the political system. Mirror opposite of China suits me fine.

Education should be of the highest quality and should be free to all. But it should be based on merit, the smartest and most talented should be given the best education. In America today people like Dubya get a Yale degree. I'm sure he deserved it based on his educational achievements and not daddy's money. Education should be standardized throughout the nation and the standards should be the toughest in the world -- so our graduates are the best qualified in the world.

How many Einsteins, Marconis, or other potential world changers have been denied the education and the opportunity to use their talents to better the human condition. How many Davinci's and Picasso's have died after a life spent toiling to make ends meet because their talent was not recognized or they needed to put food on the table instead of nurturing their genius. Who loses in those situations? WE ALL DO.

Capitalism rewards the greatest and craftiest crooks, thieves and liars. Capitalism wastes the greatest minds, the greatest talents of our people while propping up the undeserving in lives of luxury. It is a cancer and we need to start the Chemo -- NOW!

[sarcasmo]

43. Both parties are bought and paid for by Corporations. This is Corporate controlled America.

I voted for change and President Obama still has Bernake in charge. Gitmo is still in use. DADT still has not been over turned.

[defendandprotect]

103. Obama showed us his corporate hand immediately after the election ....

and those who understand what went down -- impossible to ignore or deny --

need to unite to act together as a liberal/progressive voting bloc.

Don't understand why others continue to try to say otherwise --

The evidence has been completely to the contrary and continues to build ... sadly!

I'm becoming even more concerned that in all this time we haven't seen any

liberal Democrat make any kind of a move to challenge Obama.

The message of that worries me -- i.e., that those who have backed Obama are the

very powerful people we are trying to defeat.

[earth mom]

51. Sorry to tell ya but the DINOS in office are worse than the rethugs.

At least the rethugs are upfront about their evil and greedy ways.

The DINOS are not only evil and greedy but they are liars too! :grr:

[bjobotts]

74. Yeah but that is only a handful compared to the entire repub party

[bjobotts]

75. The "Money Party" is composed of all repubs and a handul of dems.It's ideology prevention

[Billy Burnett]

3. Got Prozac™? Paxil™? If so, then you need to add Abilify™.

It suppresses any bad feelings one might have about living the need for begging, borrowing, lying, stealing, scratching and clawing needed to survive in America.

[TK421]

15. "Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill"?

[moblsv]

65. Because you've been down that road

and you know exactly where it leads. There's nothing there for you now.

[TK421]

81. Sad thing is, I like that road....they had some great noodles n/t

[jonthebru]

31. But What happens when you need to...

beg, borrow, steal, scratch and claw to survive?

[OneGrassRoot]

4. Read Yes! Magazine and similar publications....

supporting grassroots, sustainable communities. There are many efforts going on to gather people into supportive communities; the Yes! Magazine website is one good starting place.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/

http://www.transitionus.org/about-us

I'm reading David Korten's "Agenda for a New Economy" now and highly recommend. He addresses the same questions you raise in your OP.

We can affect change, and empower our daily lives, through actions at a local level, depending upon one another more and more, supporting local businesses and organizations.

As for governmental systemic change, I believe it has to start with a constitutional amendment to overturn the Citizens United ruling; focusing on campaign finance reform; and loosening the stranglehold corporate media has on everything, dumbing down and anesthetizing the masses.

:)


edit or typo

[Raksha]

144. Wow, thank you for the Yes! magazine recommendation, OneGrassRoot.

The first article I found is one that relates directly to a discussion I'm involved in on another forum. It's the David Korten interview. I've read just a few paragraphs and I think I'd like to read his book.

[OneGrassRoot]

164. Yay!

You're most welcome. :)

I'd love to get a book club together (as if anyone has time for that any more...lol) to discuss Agency for a New Economy and taking ACTION on some things, instead of wringing our hands in despair, ya know?

:hi:

[villager]

5. Though the oligarchs have overplayed their hand on the environmental front...

...and as resources run out, their empires will crumble...

The question is: What will replace them on the way down?

[swilton]

57. You wanna make a bet?

What do you think those gated communities are all about - isolation from the masses.

[villager]

78. Sure -- and privatized security, etc. But their arrogance is that they literally think they live on

...a "different planet" than the rest of us.

And they don't.

[defendandprotect]

105. For years now, the Mall at Short Hills here in NJ, features collections of IRON GATES.....

in the lobby as you enter -- they are 8 or 9 feet tall -- !!

Sometimes I feel like putting a little post it note on them -- because no

one seems to question them!! What should my note say?


:)

[defendandprotect]

108. Agree with you ... but think it will be Global Warming which will play the final cards ....

and think it's coming at us faster than most understand --

We already have 2 hot days for every 1 cold day --

Some say by 2050 there will be 21 hot days for every 1 cold day -

Where does that leave us by 2025? 10 hots days for every 1 cold day?

Scientists really can't say how fast this will go -- they are constantly

shocked at the speed. No one can even guess how this will all compound.


Peak Oil will have a tremendous effect -- all of which we are unprepared for.

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system for the one or the few

at the top of the pyramid -- the "Dr. Strangelove's" among us.

They will want to survive at any cost -- by any means.

But unless our species begins to act very soon towards a valid response to

Global Warming with a complete culture change -- I think our species if over.

The planet will also be in question -- all thanks to capitalism!

[The Doctor.]

6. I have the formula. The keys to mass prosperity.

But I can't share it openly.

I can only hope to pull investors together without inadvertently waking the beast.

But nobody will make the time to meet with me and see that what I have is real.

I cannot begin to describe the frustration and anguish of holding a solution, but being able to do nothing with it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. interesting post -- would love to hear more.

PM me with details please...

[Billy Burnett]

9. Grape Kool Aid?

[Klukie]

11. Hahaha

[BonnieJW]

10. Why in the world

can't you share it openly? You have THE solution and you won't pass it on?

[SammyWinstonJack]

Weird, eh?

:shrug:

[The Doctor.]

17. Good question. The short answer?

I enjoy breathing, and would like to finish raising my kids.

Oh, and if I'm dead, then not a single part of the plan will be realized.

So long as it just seems I'm blowing smoke, I probably won't attract attention. Therein lies the problem; I have to simultaneously avoid attention while attracting it.
I have made contact with a network of people, but my point of contact cannot seem to wrap his head around just what I have to help me get in front of the right people. He doesn't know everything because I can't share it until I'm in front of the right people.

Give me a handful of investors with a social conscience, a white board, a red marker, and I'll change the fundamentals of the game.

But, of course... that's just blowing smoke.

[OneGrassRoot]

20. And truly finding the right people is a challenge...

Those simply "having resources" aren't necessarily those you need. They must TRULY have a social conscience.

I support visionaries wholeheartedly and believe solutions exist -- way outside the current box of awareness.

Go you. :thumbsup:

[The Doctor.]

27. You have no idea.

Subtlety is ineffective, and all up-front is unwelcome.

I have come to the conclusion that even the people with the very best intentions are utterly useless. That means I have to come up with 5M-15M on my own.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

49. ...

Stay there.

[defendandprotect]

109. Try Michael Moore - - Ralph Nader - - Soros --

Just saying .... I'm sure it ain't easy!!

:)

[info being]

146. No, they don't give a shit at all

They are only taking care of their own thing. Try approaching them with a good idea (as I have) and see how far you get. Wishful thinking, sorry.

[The Doctor.]

184. I've emailed Michael Moore... no response.

I imagine he gets a great deal of email.

[yodermon]

60. does it involve the TARDIS?

or perhaps a Sonic Screwdriver.


I kid, i kid

[The Doctor.]

185. Hehehe... it's in the shop.

;)

[bbigrob]

69. The Formula

How would one connect for more info?

[The Doctor.]

183. One would identify ones' self in a varifiable fashion,

Then demonstrate, if one hasn't already, that one puts the prosperity of the working classes ahead of corporate or even personal profits.

Then one can connect for more info.

Investors would stand to make six to seven figures a month.

[info being]

145. I've been there

I had the answer in 2002 but nobody gave a shit then either. Nobody is going to help you with this. You need to translate everything into the "consumer mindset" and then maybe they will.

[The Doctor.]

182. Actually, that's part of the solution.

I have created a product model that would put an entire industry out of business overnight.

When I have described the basic product to people, nearly 100 now, every single person, without exception has agreed that the choice is a no-brainer.

[Klukie]

7. I wish I had the answers....

It is depressing as hell to me...especially when I look around and most people are completely oblivious and the few that do realize, don't give a shit. Information is the only way that we can even begin to address our situation, but we have no real way to distribute it effectively. I really don't believe that people are unable to grasp our problems but they are unable to recognize any good solutions due to the vast amounts of misinformation out there. Again..I wish I had the answers :(

[Doctor_J]

26. After observing for 25 years or so, I am quite sure of the answer

Pulling it off would be very difficult however.

[NNN0LHI]

12. What can we realistically do to stop our slide into oblivion? I will tell you

Get our fucking industrial base back into this country. That way there will be jobs for our kids when they graduate from high school besides just the military. High paying union jobs. Because those are the kind of jobs that will finance our future. Otherwise we are going to be fucked real good. All of us. Except the wealthy that is. They will always be just fine.

And how do I know this? Because I am old enough to have seen it this way. I lived it.

Don

[Catherina]

16. +1 We are nothing without a manufacturing base. n/t

[defendandprotect]

110. We have to overturn the trade agreements. ... renew tariffs ....

reinstate New Deal regulations on capitalism -- Glass-Steagall --

the turning point is corporations replacing soverign governments --

quite a trick - but it's being done!

[Mimosa]

139. I agree with NNNOLHI and Catherina

I've sometimes wondered if offshoring manufacturing jobs was intended to make young able bodied people join the military after the draft system was ended.

[OHdem10]

13. The Democrats seem to agree with the Goebbels of the RW

"This is a Center-Right Country".

Convince the Masses and they are ripe for takeover.
This is a Center-Right Country. This is a Center-Right Country.

Repeat a lie often enough and the masses will believe it.

There is a world of difference between Center-Right
and Right of Center.

We are professing that the country lies in the center
of the Republican Party. This is most important.
It means whatever the Republicans espouse and propose
we will support.

How else do you think the Republicans won in last election.

[Catherina]

18. Rec'd with great sadness n/t

[Fumesucker]

19. They Thought They Were Free..

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

An excerpt from
They Thought They Were Free
The Germans, 1933-45
Milton Mayer


But Then It Was Too Late
"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

[nicky187]

40. The same thing is going on here.

I see it every day at my University.

[defendandprotect]

111. My impression is they have been corporatizing colleges/universities for decades .....

It is a liberal nation, but when this rw stuff goes on long enough it

certainly confuses the hell out of the public!!

Corporatizing and militarizing our colleges/universities is my impression ---

[awoke_in_2003]

89. that is absolutely chilling...

and close to home.

[awoke_in_2003]

90. that was absolutely chilling...

and very close to home

[TBF]

21. How do we stop the slide? By stopping the capitalism. Ain't gonna be easy -

it's going to require millions of us in the streets. Solidarity and fighting back are the only options we have if we want to save this planet.

[defendandprotect]

112. Re-regulating capitalism was the first thing Obama should have been doing .....

Overall agree with you!!

Elites are united -- the public isn't -- even Seniors aren't united except thru

AARP -- an insurance company!!

:eyes:

After that -- overturning the trade agreements --

What we've gotten is almost the exact REVERSE of what FDR did!!

[LeftinOH]

22. I mostly agree - but I'm not blaming "the government." n/t

[kctim]

24. Where do we go from here? Nowhere.

Not unless the people who fear the big "evil" corporations and the people who fear big government decide to work with each other instead of against each other.

[defendandprotect]

115. People are waking up because so far the elites haven't been able to

block everything -- liberal radio helped in '06 -

KO, Maddow, Schultz are helping now and have been for 3-4 years --

The internet --

These are tools we have right now --

Elites are united in every way possible -- Citizens have to begin to do the same --

Senors aren't even united except thru AARP which is an insurance company!!

Americans haven't been political in a very, very long time -- not like Europeans --

but it's a simple message now of criminals taking over our government, bankrupting

taxpayers and our Treasury. Kinda easy to understand.

And 50 million Americans still without health care -- how many homeless -- ?

This is the right wing's "third world America" -- !!

Americans have to begin to understand how severely our infrastructure is damaged

from lack of maintenance --

and how our system of public education is being privatized/corporatized --

MIC the nightmare that Ike hinted at --

[kctim]

170. Our internal war

is over ideology, not class.

Which is why we have been getting almost the exact same argument you make here from the right for so long. They just blame the government instead of corps.

[defendandprotect]

178. Giving a little harder thought to both your posts .....

and not sure that we're in disagreement --

but not sure either that we aren't --

I'm saying that TPB/elites -- probably Royals who morphed into capitalists --

are suicidal, especially in their exploitation of nature and humans.

Global Warming, of course, is the proof of that.

Is a suicidal war on nature "ideology" -- ? I don't really think so.

Would we describe it as "class warfare" --? Again, I don't really think so.

It's a war by the few on nature - and it has been given license for that war by

organized patriarchal religion -- i.e., "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature."

THAT is ideed "ideology" and "class warfare" in their rawest forms -- but it is nonetheless

SUICIDAL. It's a difficult conclusion for most to arrive at because most of us wouldn't be

so idiotic or so greedy as to enact suicidal programs, especially in a drive to have control over

others. Yes - that "control" results in profits which convert to power -- but the main drive

that gets these people out of bed every morning is the desire to have control over others.


We pretty much have no "people's" government any longer -- the coup on JFK not only took our

president it took our government. The elites are now substituting corporatism in place of

sovereign governments all over the world. Ironic since it is government which creates corporations.


Overall, I have to disagree with you on the enemy -- it is corporatism which is fascism.

Granted the T-baggers, put in place and financed and run by the Koch Bros. don't seem to agree

with that -- why would they? They are part of this corporatist system -- and imo a step further

into dangerous tyranny because they are a few steps further into disruptive and near-violent

behavior. Only the right wing will profit from violence in America. Violence is the only way

the right wing can rise -- that and stolen elections and lies.


Edited to add a :) --

and to say your comments are interesting!

[kctim]

179. Interesting points

and it is even more interesting that you stopped right before your ideas merged with the other sides.

They to believe in the 'elites,' but they actually take it one step further than you just did. If the main drive of these elites is 'control,' then they must use the ONLY entity that can wield such power over the people: government.

You make a valid point that the elites are now substituting corporatism in place of government, but you stop short of recognizing how they also use government to control the day to day lives of the people and that is where ideology comes into play. To them, giving control of their lives to government, that you agree is run by elites, is the worst thing we could possibly do because they put more value on keeping their individual rights and freedoms than they do on what is warming, who got shot or who needs a doctor. This is why there is all the talk of socialism and why they believe the only way the left wing can rise is from convincing us to give up our individual rights and freedoms and making all individuals dependent on government for their survival.

Personally, I believe some points from both sides have some merit, but they are too busy fighting amongst each other instead of for each other.

[defendandprotect]

181. Possibly ....

you are working towards a Libertarian argument against all government?


Interesting points
and it is even more interesting that you stopped right before your ideas merged with the other sides.

I got tired . . . and thought you'd be worn out, as well!


They to believe in the 'elites,' but they actually take it one step further than you just did. If the main drive of these elites is 'control,' then they must use the ONLY entity that can wield such power over the people: government.

Ok -- let's take this apart a bit --

Are you saying there are no "elites" -- no olligarchy -- TPB?

And you're starting to sound a little rw Libertarian here as opposed to lw Libertarian --

do you consider a people's government the enemy?

First, one has to understand the obsessions of patriarchy -- and that organized patriarchal

religion is the creation of patriarchy. Because you can't declare yourself "superior," you

need a "god" to do it for you.

But the obsessions are completely about control -- in fact control over the majority gender --

females. Look at what Mary Shelley shows you in "Frankestein" about the male desire to create

life which many trace to patriarchy's war on nature which has been so unkind as to make the

male much less necessary in creating life than the female.

I've never gotten around to putting very much about capitalism into print here -- but it was

invented by the Vatican when Feudalism became insufficient to run their Papal States.

It is not intended to benefit the many - it is intended to move wealth and natural resources

into the hands of the few.

But coming back to control -- as we can see today and as we saw in the Reagan years --

bankrupting the Treasury and creating Recession and now new bailouts for capitalists --

again puts the right wing in charge of "austerity" programs which fall not on the MIC or

fat cats but on our safety nets --

Bankrupting the Treasuring -- forcing citizens or nations into compliance with arbitrary

corporate rules from banks -- even international banks and banking structures -- IMF, etal --

has long been recognized as a way to destroy democracy!

Further, simply controlling government -- i.e., buying out our government by buying out our

elected officials -- is quite powerful. Consider what Monsanto has done to the FDA!

But, privatizing our military -- and having "off the shelf" military and "black bag" jobs

at your beck and call is another powerful way to disrupt democracy. And, not only our own

effort to create a democracy -- but to disrupt nations all over the planet. Afghanistan,

Iran, Iraq which we've been bombing now for 30 years -- Korea, Pakistan.

As Chomsky once outlined for us -- government is like a typewriter -- it depends upon who

is doing the writing and what comes out of it!

If you see any need for control over corruption and criminality which might go beyond your

own arming of yourself to settle your affairs, then obviously you need government.

Keep in mind that FDR also used government and its power to make very positive changes for

the nation and the public. Keep in mind there is a distinct difference between a "people's"

government and a government usurped and co-opted and bought out by corporations.

A little difficult to cover all of the points in one blow -- but the right wing Kock/T-baggers

are mightily confused about what socialism is -- and that's purposeful because they've been

directed to think of socialism as "Nazism" -- or "Russian Communism " -- both of which were

dictatorships -- totalitarian governments. Infact, J. Edgar Hoover ALWYS referred to USSR in

that way -- "totalitarian communusm."

Again -- the Koch/T-baggers are financed by the oil industry and run out of a PR firm.

They are directed to attack, not to listen to discussion nor debate.

The original NAZI party in Germany was, of course, a truly socialist movement -- and socialism

is still respected all over the world. The NAZI party supported women's right, reproductive

freedom/abortion -- were involved in health issues and preventive care -- and Germany at that

time was noted for advancement and freedom of intellect. AFTER Hitler took over the NAZI party

everything was reversed. Same with "totalitarian communism" sometimes also called socialism.

These were right wing dictaroships having nothing to do with socialism.


Don't know if we're making any headway in the discussion -- but respond again when you feel

like it --


:)

[Wednesdays]

25. I was gonna say, "Form our own country"

You know, buy a very large island or chain of islands somewhere, and go there. That is if this place is indeed beyond salvation.

Problem is, the powers-that-be we'd be fleeing would inevitably find a way to infiltrate or buy our utopia...and failing that, they would just nuke it.

[Greyhound]

28. I think we agree and it seems to me that we need some creative destruction.

Things are falling apart, that is self evident. The question is do we simply do nothing and let chaos and corporate machinations determine what rises to fill the vacuum, or do we acknowledge what is happening and take steps to make the fundamental changes that can solve the problems we face?

One major part of this lies in your last line, "What can we realistically do...?" and that depends on people taking their power back, because we both know that there is no longer any way to fix the systems from within those systems. We are not even allowed into the room, let alone a seat at the table. Unfortunately that is another problem, as we now have a third generation coming of age that really have no idea how things work or what American ideals are.

We need leaders and there are precious few out there and they are kept far away from any real power.

[ladjf]

34. I like what you are saying. However, I can't seem to get a grasp

of how such "creative destruction" could be consciously put into play.

[Greyhound]

172. It is not likely at all, but it is possible.

Think of the rise of Fidel Castro. In spite of the American spin, he didn't come down from the hills and take Cuba by himself, he spoke of reality to those subjugated under the "American friendly" regime and convinced them that all the power was theirs and that they must take it back.

They did and that's along the lines of what needs to happen here. The Cuban Revolution was so close, and really, it was the U.S. that forced him to seek protection with the Soviets by becoming a client state. Had we (U.S. government) not, once again, sided completely with the oppressors, Cubans wanted and were headed toward an egalitarian and independent Cuba. We saw a similar scenario played out with Hồ Chí Minh in Vietnam and we know what happened there, too.

In the American version, this leader must articulate the flaws in the systems in ways that people can begin to understand. Almost everyone knows they're getting fucked, they just don't understand exactly how it is being done. If they ever do, and after the resulting "Liberty tree watering" I think they would be willing to give something else a try.

But the leaders are the keys.

[mstinamotorcity]

166. You know how I feel

The only power we have left.

TOMBStone

[woo me with science]

29. You know, a year ago I would have accused you of hyperbole.

Today I am afraid for my country.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. But not our melodrama!

We'll always have our melodrama!!!!

You may take our lives, but you'll never take our melodrama!!!!

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

67. Looks like our Snarky Invincible Ignorance is still a growth Industry as well.

:eyes:

[ladjf]

33. Fine post, that speaks for many of us.

I'm afraid the evilness has progressed to a point of control that the good people in America will never be able to reverse it. The more likely scenario is as you described "Americans won't have enough left to make it worth the while...". I take that to mean that we will have collapsed from the sheer force of the illogical political actions that have occurred over the years.

As to what will happen after that, I can't even imagine.

[Igel]

38. Just change a few words and it could speak for a lot more.

Amazing. Both sides are screaming that their country was stolen and they want it back.

I guess those who should lose--because they don't deserve the power of enfranchisement and ownership--are to be serfs, disenfranchised and part of what's "taken back."

Now that *would* be taking our country back, to when a group of people who believed themselves to be superior in thought and wisdom ran things and dictated to the populace how things would be and what they should think.

Feudalism, fascism, socialist governments, theocracy all have something very, very important in common. That something is to be resisted at every turn and by all means possible. I don't think we're quite there yet, tho'.

[laughingliberal]

35. I've been saying for a while it's the final push to steal the last few pennies from our pockets.

SS, Medicare, Medicaid funds about to be stolen. Any who are still hanging on to something, will be taken care of by mandated purchase of private insurance.

Once they have it all, any pretense of working for the people or the common good will be dropped and it'll be, 'So long, suckers. Thanks for playing!'

[BrklynLiberal]

36. KnR

[Flatulo]

37. I think what we're seeing is the end of a golden age. Global

capitalism has premanently transformed the world so that work and the production of goods will always flow to the lowest labor market. Today, that is China. Tomorrow it may be somewhere else.

Did you kow that there is already an outsourcing crisis in coastal China? As prosperity and industialization caught up in the coastal cities, jobs are leaving for the inland and even lower labor rates. The people on the coast are outraged.

There doesn't seem to be any way to reverse, or even slow down this trend. Our standard of living will continue to decline until we're essentially a third-world contry.

Corporations are global, and they hold no fealty to any nation. The are beholden only to maximize profits and shareholder returns, and there is no consideration whatsover for the American citizenry.

Because of outsourcing, I lost a $135K job as a senior design engineer at Seagate after 30 years of service. I now work twice as hard for 1/2 the money at a sweatshop. And I'm very lucky to have that, bcause I'm 54 years old, and no one hires people my age. I go to work in excruciating pain every day becaue my insurance will not pay for anything other than cheap narcotics to mask the problems. Thankfully I made great money for many years and lived well within my means, so I'm in no danger of becoming homeless. I have a crappy little house that is paid off in full, and I buy absoutely nothing that I can't live without.

The party is over. There's no going back.

[Crazy Dave]

41. Skilled labor in my town used to be $20 an hour plus ten years ago

Now it's $12 an hour max.

I know an engineering firm in my town that has both licensed architects and civil engineers working as a CAD techs and inspectors for only $15 an hour.

[Flatulo]

61. It doesn't matter how skilled you are...

If your job can be done on a computer with internet access, it will be done in China or India eventually.

That's why I'm struggling to comprehend why our leaders cannot seem to see the writing on the wall - no matter how much money they try to print or inject into the economy, there is simply nothing left to do here. We don't make enough stuff to keep everyone busy.

[Crazy Dave]

119. They're also bringing the skilled labor from overseas here too

H-1B

[moondust]

42. "giant ghetto" - Matt Taibbi.

Get Wall Street out of Washington. Global capitalism doesn't give a damn about nation-states in the pursuit of profits.

Term limits on members of Congress might get rid of conniving professional politicians (you know who) who game the system for personal enrichment. But the trade-offs could be even worse.

:shrug:

[herbm]

44. Sounds like a teabagger talking at dinner with friends. We've made it till now not owning our

country or our lives. Even materially the times aren't bad even compared to average times in India. Or worse, Bangladesh. Would you like to live on an Albanian standard of living.

Why are we all not acting on principle versus moaning about a life that all in all materially is better than few places right now on Earth.

Its time to quit nitpicking the President, change a Congress back to what is truly mainstream. It requires writing a couple of letters, calling, acting christian (as opposed to acting 'Christian'), stop moaning about not using the hunting lease this year because you can't afford to fill the HUMVEE (or charge the Volt: this letter is to everybody) start letting your Reps that if they don't reflect your concerns that at your most negative you will vote against him and if we get a couple of the rents too damn high guys or the one that ran down south, the rest will get the message.

[alarimer]

47. The really ugly truth is that we never had this country to begin with.

All that nonsense about "Land of the Free" is just that: Nonsense.

This has always been a country of, by and for the rich; it was planned that way from the very beginning. The entire Bill of Rights was just a sop to keep Americans from revolting in a violent way. Every single rebellion was put down with the help of cops, soldiers (usually militia or National Guard) etc. The cops and private security (like Pinkertons or Blackwater) will always do the bidding of our masters, rich people and our corporate overlords.

Every now and then we get a politician that talks a good game to get our votes but they always turn out to corporate lackeys once they get in office because the corporate overlords make it clear what their job really is.

And the overlords are really good at dividing us. They divided poor people, black against white, during the Civil War. They divided various immigrant groups against others and against native-born. During every single national emergency, we are told we must shut up or be disloyal. The Espionage Act was primarily not used against actual spies but against anyone who spoke out against WWI. It is still on the books and still used, upheld by no less than Oliver Wendell Holmes.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point. This is not our country and never has been.

[defendandprotect]

116. Exactly ... taken in theft, built by slaves, kept by assassination ....

endless political violence - stolen elections -- lies ----



:nuke:

[TZ]

50. I'm not incredibly rich.

However, I'm very solidly middle class. I have a GREAT job where I have great benefits. Its pretty secure..In fact I've had head hunters calling me asking me if I'm interested in jobs elsewhere.
I have a great mortgage on a nice condo- with a rate lower than most people pay in rent. My car is paid off and runs well.
Oh and I'm not alone...my whole family is solidly middle class and most are doing well with few financial worries.
Don't let the mass media fool you. There is STILL a very healthy middle class, of people like me who are doing okay. But that doesn't make news..Its much more fun to report DEATH DESTRUCTION STARVATION.
Believe it or not. Things are getting better. I know, I'm watching it happen where I live..In my solidly liberal suburb.

[Plucketeer]

52. What country is that???

Where we're at, the middle class has all but melted away. Our income is shrinking, faster and faster - while our "Reformed" health care is costing us more and more every day.



EDIT: GOP vision of the NEW Middle Class

[Catherina]

56. Get back to us in a year you lucky one. n/t

[TheWatcher]

68. Thank You So Much For The Update from your Unaffected Bubble World.

We've wasted enough of your time though, and I know you're eager to get back to it, so please don't let us hyperbole drunk Proles keep you.

[oldhippie]

167. Shhhhhhhh. ........

Don't piss in the punchbowl and spoil their outrage party. They don't want to hear it, as evidenced by the responses to your post.

And I am with you. I am 62, retired with a secure source of income for life, have no debt and plan to enjoy life for the forseeable future. I am certainly not rich. So there are at least two of us middle class folk still around.

[mstinamotorcity]

53. Ban together and starve the Beast!!!!!

America is going to need to take a hard look at itself. Those of us who still believe in themselves.What is the one thing they have not taken away from you?? Your power of choice. You still have the ability to spend your money where you want.You still have the ability to give them nothing beyond the price of gas and utilities. And anything you owe cut the debt.Get rid of credit cards. They are full of fees for borrowing their money for short term. Next take money from Wall Street. They are still bundling,swapping and derivatives are all based on false shit. They have not addressed too big to fail. They are playing with Money that doesn't belong to them and collecting huge bonuses to do so. Most people will say what about my investment,I want a return on my investment.I will have penalties for early withdrawal. You are right. But what if you have nothing to get. At least this way you control how much they can have.And take the rest for your savings in a credit union or community bank.Take your money out of Big Banks and find community banks or credit unions.Financial Reform addressed consumer protections with predatory lenders and credit card abuses.All the other shady stuff is still going on. Grow a small garden get in a gardening club and exchange vegetables and fruit. Learn how to freeze and can vegetables. Stop giving them permission to tell you how to think and spend your money. Network with friends. The more of us that take our money back the more the 2% feel it. And if we did it in a large enough number, we would be the job creators who are investing in ourselves.

TOMBStone

[handmade34]

80. excellent!!!

intentional communities
coops and buying clubs
only buy local
organize (start small and expand)
help each other
educate each other
refuse to let them control us
eat healthy
reuse, recycle, do without
start a business
etc.....

[Butch350]

54. Tell me something I don't already know!

The is only ONE way for this condition to change.

Every single person on this planet has to Change Their Way of Thinking. Philosophies(sp) and habits will have to change.

The way we percieve wealth and possesions and the need to accumulate them need to change.

GREEDINESS has placed society in its current state.

And I don't see that changing any time soon.

Sincerly,
my 0.02 worth

[proteus_lives]

58. We can do nothing. All is lost, we're all doomed.

DOOM!

Side-note: I love how cheery this place is on the holidays.

[onethatcares]

62. are you having cranberrie sauce or

something else as a side dish?

[proteus_lives]

136. Not much for cranberries.

I'm more for the stuffing or casserole.

[maryf]

63. "Do we sit around waiting for our own funerals?"

nope, kill capitalism before it kills us.

[valerief]

64. If only the propaganda didn't get young people to fight in wars for the elite.

Of course, when the propaganda stops working, $$$ take over. (Blackwater, Xe)

[Rex]

66. That is a pretty good recount of it.

:toast:

[Mimosa]

72. Eloquent.

Cyrano, your posting name suits you. :)

[ProudDad]

73. We're working locally along these lines...

www.transitionus.org

One must at least pretend there's a chance at survival otherwise why continue?

[Poboy]

76. I love this OP/post. -nt

[fasttense]

79. As the TeaBaggers say "We want our country back" so we will have to

take it back. The only solution to millions of homeless, Peoples homes being stolen from them by the Banksters, Stopping Austerity measures, and feeding the hungry is to have all of the homeless, working poor, and what is left of the middle class to camp out on the mall in Washington DC until the people in congress realize that there is more of us than there is of them. The people should not fear their Government, but the Government should fear the people.

I see a revolution brewing in this country and when it erupts it will not be a pretty sight.

[handmade34]

82. we are backed into a corner, most of us

"...We’re all responsible because we all let ourselves get conned, raped and bludgeoned by..."

yup

[defendandprotect]

117. "It's not polite to discuss politics or religion in public" --- That had best no longer be true!!

It's going to be tough to talk to one another over the noise of the rw propaganda --

and that rw propaganda has been planting landmines which make discussions even with

family members very difficult!

[handmade34]

125. one of the most difficult is

family members that buy into all the scams and marketing... I have a few of those and I usually avoid them because as I get older, learning the truth is one of the most important things I find myself doing.

I tell everyone that will listen that businesses, through marketing and other means, are very successfully telling us what to eat, wear, drive, and unfortunately think... The truth is often difficult to uncover

[defendandprotect]

126. Agree .....

The "right wing noise machine" goes on and on drowning out everything else ---

Agree our battle is with corporatism/fascism --

And corporations are replacing sovereign governments --

Of course, there is only one way that the right wing can rise and that is by

political violence -- asssassinations -- stolen elections -- lies.

And we've had more than 50 years of that -



:)

[katandmoon]

83. K&R. And Obama is at best simply presiding over it, instead of doing anything meaningful to stop it,

when he's not actually actively aiding and abetting it.

[BobbyBoring]

84. Like the Doctor

I too have the answer. I can't post it openly so what do I do? I only need a few very motivated souls who have no fear. Where do you find them in this nation of dumbed down, apathetic sheep?

[prodigals0n]

86. "Our country has been stolen from us. Our lives have been stolen from us."

"Our country has been stolen from us. Our lives have been stolen from us."

Yep.

"We never saw it coming because it crept up so slowly and quietly."

"...one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head."
-- "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" by Milton Mayer

"What can we realistically do to stop our slide into oblivion?"

I'm sorry to say, I believe it's too late to stop it.

Game over.
Bad Guys....1
Good Guys...0

The vast majority of us are just along for the ride from here on.

Have a nice ride.

[UrbScotty]

87. This very same thing is repeated over and over and over and over and over and over here.

You know what? Martin Luther King never (at least publicly) shared this attitude.

Neither did Mother Teresa.

Neither did Franklin Roosevelt.

They rolled up their sleeves and DID THINGS.

They didn't just sit around and complain, or recommend other threads that do little more than com;plaining about how we're going to hell in a handbasket.

They DID THINGS.

[liberation]

92. Funny, every single of those historical figures you mention also said many things...

... and are famous and relevant historical figures not just for what they DID but more importantly for what they SAID.

But I guess then your little passive aggressive fallacy wouldn't work as well.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

91. It's not a pretty picture emerging.

The hopes of turnaround have been severely thwarted by the appointments of people like Summers, Geithner, Vilsack, Gates...

The list goes on, and I find it reprehensible, especially when viewed as a promise of change.

[madokie]

95. Its the press that we have to get right

radio, television and print are for the most part owned by a small handful of corporations. We have to get the press under control or there is not chance for us to get our country back. simple as that.

[defendandprotect]

96. Elites have been working on knocking out Constitution and "democracy" since first begun....

they knew they had time --

Certainly coup on JFK woke us all up -- but by then the killing machine was in place

and was already shifting the power.

Don't think Americans yet understand the suicidal nature of capitalism --

it's war on nature and humanity. Hard to believe when we were taught that capitalism

and democracy are synonymous.

Capitalism is intended to move the wealth and natural resources of nations from the many

to the few -- and its quite successful at doing that.

We now have corporations replacing sovereign governments.

There is only one way the right wing can rise and that is through political violence --

stolen elections -- lies.





Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion - and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity

[ThoughtCriminal]

104. The arc of the moral universe is long..

When our days become dreary with low-hovering clouds of despair, and when our nights become darker than a thousand midnights, let us remember that there is a creative force in this universe, working to pull down the gigantic mountains of evil, a power that is able to make a way out of no way and transform dark yesterdays into bright tomorrows. Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

[janet118]

107. Run liberal celebrities who are anti-corporate and male

We have become a nation of celebrity worshipers. Sarah Palin is onto something. What she fails to realize is that women celebrities, including liberals like Oprah, Susan Sarandon, Ellen Degeneres, Cher or Sheryl Crow, haven't got a chance in hell in this culture. It's sad to say but men like Bruce Springsteen or John Mellencamp or George Clooney or Tom Hanks or Ron Howard would have a greater chance of winning elections than any regular politicians, Republican or Democratic.

For those who are laughing. Remember Reagan, B-movie star and host of "Death Valley Days." He was considered a joke but became president and an enduring icon for conservatives. Barack Obama is a kind of celebrity as was John Kennedy. Television has changed us - not for better, but for real.

[defendandprotect]

121. Believe me, I'm not laughing .... it's a great Plan B ....

but this time around I think we need pledges --

And, I'm thinking that at this very moment elites are out there sprucing up some

celebrity or threatening one of them we trust to run them as their puppet!!

But Michael Moore, Sen. Bernie Sanders -- we can name a few people we absolutely trust.

:evilgrin:

And I don't want to kid too much because I really think that liberals/progressives have

to come together as a voting bloc and stick together --

Don't think the Soros/David Brock idea of a citizens fund to support liberals/progressives

is bad either -- except I won't give another dime to Obama. Or any other DLC/New Dem.

I've also been suggesting we hire someone like Erin Brockovich -- and get some real advice

on how to break this criminal hold over our government -- we need lawyers and lobbyists.

Who knows -- but we need to at least begin to talk about these things!

And thank you for your post!! :)


And here's what Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall said as he was retiring --

and journalists were badgering him about whether or not Poppy Bush would treat his seat

as a "black" seat .....

"It's not the color of a snake which is important. What's important is whether

or not the snake bites!"


I'm sure in '08 they were set to to with either Hillary or Obama -- TPB are giving us

the candidates they want us to elect.

[meow mix]

165. alec baldwin?

who else would be good..

[janet118]

175. Was Viggo Mortensen born in America?

Yes!!

Viggo is the eldest son of Grace and Viggo P. Mortensen. His father, who farmed in Denmark, met his mother, a New Yorker, in Norway. They wed and moved to New York where Viggo Jr. was born, before moving to South America where Viggo Sr. managed chicken farms and ranches in Venezuela and Argentina.

edited to add more info

[progressoid]

113. So....we should use the teabagger line, "I want my country back"??

:shrug:

[janet118]

133. Actually that was Howard Dean's line first . . .

"You Have the Power: How to Take Back Our Country and Restore Democracy in America" by Howard Dean

It's amazing how the right uses the left's own tactics - only with money and media backing - and makes them their own. I am constantly surprised by how the media can hypnotize most of America at will.

[ShamelessHussy]

114. "Before long..." - I think that, 'America is dispensable', was decided in the 90s

there is a new world order today, and it is in ASIA... we have hit the 'BRIC' wall, re: future growth here.

they have maxed out all our credit cards here, and will now, MOVE ON.

[defendandprotect]

122. It's what the GOP has been working for over 60 years ..."Third world America" ...

We need to overturn the trade agreements and bring the jobs back --

and reregulate capitalism --

and we need to be backing liberals and progressives who will do those things!!

[bluestate10]

123. It really makes life easier to skate through when you fell owned, doesn't it?

The reality is that all of us control our own destiny. Overburdened with children and bills? A choice was made to have children and own things that could not be paid for upon receipt. Feel that the oil companies own you? There are alternative energy sources to oil, coal and natural gas based energy for our cars and homes. A determined individual can shut oil, natural gas and coal companies out of their lives, except for pollutants caused by others using fossil fuels.

I can promise you, that unless you stop seeing yourself as a pawn and realize that you can make small and large choices and that many of those choices require sacrifice on your part, you will be complaining about being a victim ten years from this day. A world class sprinter is not born sprinting. You may say that the sprinter is born with a genetic predisposition for running fast, but so are many other people that will never be lazy joggers. Gaining control of the world around you takes hard work and many setbacks, but this poster thinks going through that travail beats complaining.

BTW. Did you vote in the midterms? Do you vote in your state, district, town or city elections, do you go to city council or school board meetings? You can give me the shield about why vote or participate, all of THEM are corporalists anyway. But one truism is that a corporalist democrat beats a corporalist republican any day. Please wake up one day and realize that taking several bites out of an apple is better than insisting on having the whole apple and not getting a bite at all.

[handmade34]

128. yes, but... I don't believe we control our destiny, entirely

we all make choices, but we also are part of the entire cast in the play. Greater results come from acting collectively and that is exactly what seems to be the hinderance - organizing people. I can live off the grid, use cloth shopping bags, pay cash, only shop locally, and a million other acts of self-reliance and conservation... but the change we need comes from collective action. One of the most important things we can do is positively influence our neighbors and associates.

Biology has strong urges and we are social beings; we need a srong government "of the people" to get us back on track

[HughBeaumont]

127. ESPECIALLY during periods of costly bad luck and slow work weeks . . .

Our washer and dryer both failed on us at the same time. That'll be 1600 bucks, same-as-cash.

Before that, the wife's starter, solenoid and all her fuses blew, thanks to some toothless wonder at Budget putting the wrong battery in her car. $600.

Before that, the wife's clutch blew. $1300.

Before that, the exhaust fell out of my 13-year-old car. Oh, and the right wheel bearing schlepped. $700. Doubt the car itself is even worth that much.

Before that, I had to shell out close to $270 for a new pair of glasses. Some "visual insurance" we got.

Yeah, and the new windows we got last spring have payments come due.

This all happened in a period of two months. We just got finished paying off a once-$14000 credit card debt, we just paid her car off last year, and we're right back to where we started in a matter of months.

Oh, and Christmas is coming up. Oh, and the wife will need new glasses also. And yeah, that 1997 Cavalier is entering it's 14th and likely second-to-last year in life. Oh, and this is on top of every other bill we have to pay on a regular basis. Utilities, insurance, mortgage, etc. Everything I mentioned, BTW, is a necessity. Both of us live 20-30 minutes away from our jobs, no public transportation on her side of the fence. I drive to either the bus or the train. I have to be able to see. Before the new windows, our house would have the thermostat turned up to 70 and it felt like it was 53 in there no matter how many times the windows were weatherproofed.

Every time business is even the least bit slow at my job, I really start to lose sleep, and this is why. I'm always constantly, CONSTANTLY thinking "what the hell's going to happen to us if one or (Jesus Christ) BOTH of us lose our jobs? We're going to be financially fucked beyond repair." I need to get a plan going as to how the hell I'm going to pay all this crap off and cross every finger in hopes of warding off yet another 3-4 digit-costing disaster.

Reagan's Dream is all of our nightmares now.

k & R.

[Tsiyu]

129. I'm not going down without a fight

I'll go down shaming every one of the ignorant, craven fools in charge.

The haves - and their apologists - don't deserve even a crumb of respect.


Speak it. or as Rev Tutu says: Tell your story.

Some will ignore you, some will ridicule you, but the ones who matter will listen and fight alongside you.

[handmade34]

163. I'll be fighting along with you

if not physically, in spirit

[Tsiyu]

173. Thanks handmade34

:hug:

[AnArmyVeteran]

131. Great post and sadly very true.

[Yavin4]

132. This "new" Economic Dis-Enfranchisment of the Middle Class Started in the 80s Against African...

Americans in the inner cities. Industrial jobs relocated from urban areas in NY, Philly, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, etc., and they left behind workers without the means to support their families which led to a breakdown of the family structure within the inner cities. Ultimately, social pathology was to blame, not the economic dis-enfranchisement.

White middle and working class Americans happily voted for Reagan in 1984 in a landslide. Thus giving tacit approval to the practice of economic dis-enfranchisement.

Today, it's the White middle class' turn. Housing values have been stolen. Professional careers have been outsourced abroad and/or in-sourced from abroad. Social Security and Medicare are under full assault by the austerity brigade, and we're looking at 10% unemployment as full employment.

I dunno. Maybe if White middle class Americans stood up against the economic dis-enfranchisement of African Americans back in the 80s. Maybe we would not be going through this now.

[Bette Noir]

134. Well, what I'm doing is moving to a small town to start a small business.

I think I'll be better off, away from the corrupt local government of the big city where I live now. Being self-employed will, I hope, give me more security than the current job market would.

[AllyCat]

137. Wish I knew. My "safe" union, nursing job is actually under attack.

The PTB have decided that we are expendable. They owe no allegiance to the Americans. Corporate greed and unbridled capitalism have no souls and care naught for the needs of people, political borders, or common decency.

Those of us still doing well enough to make ends meet and save a little bit, are facing the same as everyone else very soon.

[handmade34]

161. "They owe no allegiance to the Americans..."

as money takes precedence over people the problems pile up...

[reggie the dog]

138. financially i am fucked

my wife walked out on me and then i got laid off, my weed gardern got taken by the worst floods in 200 years so no cash in hand for the end of the year either.....

[DemocraticPilgrim]

141. I don't feel that pessimistic, we just need to get the truth out with great passion.

[avaistheone1]

142. Kick# 180 Stop the TSA

:kick:

[TorchTheWitch]

147. some of us have been awake for decades

There's a deep reason why something like half the eligible voters in this country don't vote. It's not often that it's because they don't care, it's because they rightly see all politicians regardless of party as lying pieces of shit out for themselves and screw us peons. They aren't blinded by party or "into" politics... they see that their lives and those of their neighbors are getting worse because of laws that don't favor them while the wealthy and well-connected get away with murder and rightly blame our absurd political apparatus. They see "lobbyists" as legal bribing, which it is, and rightly blame our political apparatus.

One thing I've learned here in all the years I've been here is that it seems like the more one is "into" politics the more blind to reality they are. Being "into" politics takes an emotional investment that virtually guarantees having so much difficulty seeing the forest for the trees. Maybe it takes being old enough to remember what life was like when Dems acted like Dems, but Dems threw in the towel to make more campaign money, and that was 30 years ago. We haven't had a real Dem since Carter, and being in my mid-40's I was a kid in junior high when Carter was president. I remember when news was actually news and journalists actually were the watchdogs of government and politicians whether they were national or local and regardless of party just as the writers of the Constitution intended. Though I was just a kid, I remember it.

I've never been emotionally invested in any politician and never understood the rabid "Team D" vs. "Team R" sporting event which as far as I can tell is the biggest crippler of intelligent political practice and exactly why politicians and the media spend nearly all of their time engaged in it. It's the single biggest distraction that keeps people from being aware of what's being done to them, and if they're too distracted to be aware, then they're WAY to distracted to do anything intelligent about it.

[kaffy4x4]

148. The Answer is

Fair Trade. Free Trade isn't working, hasn't worked for the working class of America since adopted.

The situation today is a spiral effect. The country has lost 10% (perhaps higher) of it's demand for goods and services. Unemployed people and people on fixed incomes (retired, disabled and soon to retire) population are on a very thin income, so they don't go out and spend a lot of money on "extras" if any at all. As demand becomes less, the companies cut back to stay afloat. They lay off workers, cut back on raw goods orders and supplies, which in turn effects those vendor companies to cut back, lay off and on and on it goes.

The big boys (the ones who have off shored) and Wall St have a hissy fit when Fair Trade is talked about because that would cut into their mega profits if they were forced to pay to import to America. In fact, having a small operation in China might not look so good anymore and jobs would be created in the US. China wouldn't like it, India wouldn't like it but what country are we really concerned about and what segment of our economy needs the most help to restore it?

[olegramps]

149. The unions are what created the Middle Class

FDR's most important act was to rescind laws outlawing unions and making child labor a crime. When 36% of the work force was unionized, the working class enjoyed their highest standard of living. The workers had a powerful voice in the setting policy in Washington. It is not just a coincidence that when membership fell to 6% that the workers became vulnerable to exploitation. I don't lay the blame on the corporations. They are doing exactly what corporations are designed to do. Maximize profits and reward those in control for doing so.

It is the workers themselves who are to blame for their desperate situation. They bought the managements propaganda that unions were their enemy and they would be well taken care of. Younger workers entering the work force refused to join the unions and even supported so called "right to work laws" so they could avoid paying union dues. Of course they gladly accepted the benefits that the unions had won including a fair wage, health benefits, retirement and vacations. When management had succeeded in busting the unions they preceded to take "good care of the workers." They outsourced their jobs, cut their pensions and canceled their health insurance in order to maximize profits. What was especially ironic was this administration's intent to tax union employees health care benefits.

If the workers are tired of being screwed there is a very simple solution, UNIONIZE. They will have the power to elect representatives that will pass universal health care, tax the filthy rich, and confiscate the fortunes that have been stolen from the workers with stiff inheritance taxes. They will see their children getting productive jobs rather than joining the military to be used as canon fodder to enrich the military industrial corporations.

Yes,there is a solution. UNIONIZE!

[Clear Blue Sky]

150. Truly a bipartisan mess.

[sandyj999]

151. You Are In My Head. Sad it is ending this way. n/t

[Locrian]

152. it actually goes back to 400-500 years ago....

Douglass Rushkoff's book "Life Inc" has an interesting take.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/238643/july-15-2009/douglas-rushkoff
http://boingboing.net/2009/05/04/life-inc.html

As corporations gain ever more control over our economy, government, and culture, it is only natural for us to blame them for the helplessness we now feel over the direction of our personal and collective destinies. But it is both too easy and utterly futile to point the finger of blame at corporations or the robber barons at their helms--not even those handcuffed CEOs gracing the cover of the business section. Not even mortgage brokers, credit- card executives, or the Fed. This state of affairs isn't being entirely orchestrated from the top of a glass building by an élite group of bankers and businessmen, however much everyone would like to think so--themselves included. And while the growth of corporations and a preponderance of corporate activity have allowed them to permeate most every aspect of our awareness and activity, these entities are not solely responsible for the predicament in which we have found ourselves.

Rather, it is corporatism itself: a logic we have internalized into our very being, a lens through which we view the world around us, and an ethos with which we justify our behaviors. Making matters worse, we accept its dominance over us as preexisting--as a given circumstance of the human condition. It just is.

But it isn't.

Corporatism didn't evolve naturally. The landscape on which we are living--the operating system on which we are now running our social software--was invented by people, sold to us as a better way of life, supported by myths, and ultimately allowed to develop into a self- sustaining reality. It is a map that has replaced the territory.

[creon]

154. decline

The US is in decline. 1945 to about 1975/1980 was the high point of US power and influence. The end of the Cold War meant that 'our enemy was taken from us'.

Now, what I think that we will see are years of economic stagnation; in politics, we will see years of fatuity.

The corporations are interested in profit. People who run and invest in them, care about profit. The rest really does not matter as long as it does not hinder the pursuit of profit.

[Locrian]

155. well said

>>1945 to about 1975/1980 was the high point of US power and influence.
While I agree, it's a sad thing that it took WWII to put the US on "top".

>>The corporations are interested in profit. People who run and invest in them, care about profit. The rest really does not matter as long as it does not hinder the pursuit of profit.
[phone]

>>Now, what I think that we will see are years of economic stagnation; in politics, we will see years of fatuity.
I think your title was the key. Decline. As in Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire....

[manny70]

171. We do not have a democracy

While your post is bleak, I find it mostly accurate. I believe in the democratic process but it seems that sometimes the Democratic party is just as bad as the GOP. They take the same donations from the same corporate interests.

We do not have democracy in this country. Case in point, health care, the public was in favor of a single payer system. But the healthcare industry spent more than $80M on lobbying to kill the idea. And that is how American politics works, even if the people support an idea, corporate interests simply money into the system and kill the idea.

We need campaign finance reform.

[Cyrano]

176. Welcome to DU, manny. And your ability to see reality is also welcome.

[handmade34]

180. one of the answers...

"campaign finance reform" yup. Welcome to DU :hi:

[Poboy]

189. .