Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Ruth Marcus Thinks We All Just Need to Grow Up and Submit to the TSA

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:07 AM
Original message
Ruth Marcus Thinks We All Just Need to Grow Up and Submit to the TSA
Here's the link to Ruth Marcus' op-ed in the Washington Post:

Don't touch my junk? Grow up, America

And below is the response I posted in the article's comments section:

I think what constitutes "immaturity" is for the country to allow policy to be driven by raw emotionalism and irrational fear rather than by a sober, data-driven analysis.

According to the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, there are approximately 28,537 flights per day in the U..S. That means in the past nine years since 9/11, there have been over 93 million flights. In the same period, there have been three attempts to carry explosives onto commercial aircraft (none of which were successful): (1) Richard Reid, the "shoe-bomber," (2) the London liquid bomb plot and (3) the more recent "underwear bomber." So, based on three incidents, or 1 in 31 million, hundreds of millions of people are being asked to endure, respectively (1) the absurd ritual of removing belts and shoes, (2) having their shampoo confiscated if its half an ounce bigger than what is now permitted and (3) being subject to a virtual strip search or intrusive pat down, in effect being treated as if they were criminal suspects. Yet people still buy into the line that these things are "necessary to keep us safe."

The right to be secure in one's person is surely at the heart of the Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. The Fourth Amendment stipulates the requirement of "probable cause," which the courts in recent decades have relaxed to the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion." In the case of airline passengers en masse, there is neither. But the TSA, by using the scanners and/or pat-downs, is effectively treating everyone as if they had reasonable suspicion sufficient to warrant a search of their persons.

Given that it is generally accepted (intellectually if not always emotionally) that there is no possible way for the government to provide a 100% guarantee of safety, what, then, is a fair margin of risk? With a rate of occurrence over a nine year period of 1 in 31 million, WITHOUT (prior to) the scanners and/or newly intrusive pat downs, I would say we are doing a fine job already, and that we don't need to go around instituting new procedures every time an incident occurs (and there will, inevitably, be more occurrences). How "safe" do we really need to be?

Finally, the question begs: if a rate of occurrence of 1 in 31 million rises to a level of risk sufficient to broadly abrogate citizens' rights under the Constitution, what, then, can the government not justify in the name of "safety" or "security?" At that point, we've pretty much defined out of existence the possibility of any search under any circumstance being deemed unreasonable.

So, no, Ms. Marcus, the issue is not one of "immaturity" on the part of those who are opposed to the new machines and/or pat downs. But there may well be a maturity issue with those blindly accept anything the government tries to impose upon us (and anything former government officials are getting rich from selling to us) in the name of "safety," when they have never actually remotely made that case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well said.
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Our rights are going going going.....
I can't believe people think this makes us safer. It doesn't. I keep reading and seeing video of experts saying it really doesn't do what they're telling us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. How is it going to keep us safer is beyond my understanding?
All the attention to what a passenger might have on his or her body, meanwhile because airlines now charge for checking a bag into cargo, passengers bring all kind of bags with them on board. Even if they run those things through x-rays, how are they going to figure out if it's a plastic explosive or something else from x-rays?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
43. Uh, if they see something questionable in a checked bag,
they open it and have a look. My bags have been opened. They leave a little note on there telling you so. That's how they figure it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Take a deep breathe....
okay, now really...listen to yourself......where have you been hearing fear, and be afraid, be angry messages? Ask yourself if you might of heard such lynch mob rhetoric in the right wing media? Get a grip.....it's okay to regroup....:grouphug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thoughtful opposition is not a "lynch mob mentality"
So far I don't see "angry messages" or a "lynch mob mentality" in these comments. I see people who are strongly, thoughtfully opposed to this policy.

I am not one of those who thinks that President Obama is some great, evil would-be emperor seeking to subjugate Americans. But these policies set a precedent for future administrations as well, some of which may not be quite so benign, which may exploit the precedent to serve a much more nefarious agenda.

There is a new theme emerging from a certain subgroup of President Obama's supporters that I find very troubling. I'm not talking about all supporters (since I consider myself to be a supporter), but rather about that particular subgroup that regards any criticism at all of the Administration to be part of some grand conspiracy to bring down President Obama. The theme that is emerging around the TSA policy is that those of us who are voicing vigorous opposition to it are part of that grand conspiracy. That is simply not the case. I, for one, proudly voted for President Obama, and I am a loyal Democrat. But a commitment to the core civil liberties enshrined in the Constitution is a CORE DEMOCRATIC VALUE; indeed, it is a core AMERICAN value. I am a loyal Democrat, but I am a citizen first and a Democrat second. It is not my job, as a citizen nor even as a Democrat, to prop up the political fortunes of any President whose Administration is pursuing policies I believe are un-Constitutional. Bad policy is bad policy. Seems to me these folks who think this is about attacking President Obama have bought -- hook, line and sinker -- into the media's game of reducing complex questions into simplistic, binary forms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. That would be unnecessary....
... Obama is bringing himself down with his faux-Republican policies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katnapped Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. +1
I've seen it too...any criticism against "Team O" is conflated to be our wanting Republicans to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. great response.
This hits it all: "The right to be secure in one's person." Safety is simply the mask that they are using to cover what is a far more encompassing attack on the right to privacy. We are moving into a state ( okay we are there) where corporations have the rights of persons, and real people have no rights at all.

And welcome to DU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Thanks for the welcome!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is part of the adult conversation that needs to happen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
6. I disagree....
The screening is essential to airline safety...scanning and pat-down style. I am 100% supportive. Just like I am supportive of getting a TB test....that too is a screening which saves lives for an example. Yea, it too is intrusive and annoying...yet harmless, cost effective and a life saver.

The right wing Fox entertainment hackles are once again running the the public opinion with propaganda rhetoric...and here on DU...they seem to do the spin quite successfully.

Wake up folks....safety is first... Where are the real thinkers of this Board these days?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. If this was about anything more than the Chertoff Flying Tax
they would be scanning cargo.

There are many ways to bring down planes that groping and scanning passengers does not fix.

This is utter bs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Agreed...
We have been begging for updated port screening of cargo...Howard Dean saw this security hole in 2003....that said, I do support the benign TSA screen. Improvements will be made....I will endure with the system while it gets tweaked. I have no sense of offense with the system. An inconvenience is not as bad as sorting through a plane wreckage looking for my DNA. Ask the 911 families.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Caretha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. You asked a question that I'll be glad to answer for you
Quoted from your post #18 "where have you been hearing fear, and be afraid, be angry messages?"

Uh that would be YOU with your hyperbole rhetoric from this post, and I quote:

"An inconvenience is not as bad as sorting through a plane wreckage looking for my DNA. Ask the 911 families."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. Hope you eat lots of Turkey today.
Science reports that L-tryptopan is present in turkey....providing a calming affect, relaxation is promoted.....

Enjoy the meal....go have seconds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
50. Your family is more likely to look through the wreckage of your car
than any plane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Safety first? Do you ever get out of the house?
We are always pointed out how driving is much more dangerous than flying, yet somehow it didn't stop most people from driving.
Furthermore, all the pat downs and x-rays naked scans in the world won't save you from a plane going down due to a mechanical failure.
You are never going to be a 100 % safe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I'm just fine with the airport TSA
screening. I am impressed with the efforts and support the actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. This is not a partisan issue
I am not spinning for FOX. In fact, I NEVER watch FOX at all on sheer principal. I am a loyal Democrat who voted for President Obama. I am loyal to what has traditionally been a core Democratic value: the vigorous defense of our civil liberties as enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Bad policy is bad policy, and it is not my job to defend any administration if they are going down a path that I believe is misguided, wrong-headed and unconstitutional. No doubt FOX and the far right are attempting to exploit this for all it is worth (as indeed they do with any issue), and that may be uncomfortable for the Obama Administration, but that does NOT mean that all the opposition is coming from or being generated from the right. There is plenty of opposition from folks on the left, such as myself, based on Democratic principles that are long-standing. The answer, I believe, is for the Administration to rethink the issue, rather than attempting to demonize thoughtful opposition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I don't understand your support. The scanning is not effective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Safety is first??? I would say rights are first. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Bottom line here folks...
I will not support right wing talking points....ever....and Anti-TSA is 100% right wing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. You would be wrong about that
There is plenty of opposition on the left, based on a long tradition on the part of Democrats to vigorously defending the Bill of Rights. In fact, a major part of my concern is what will happen if and when a far right Administration might come to power. The policies that are set now set a precedent for future administrations, whose motives may be far less honorable than those of the current one. Seeing this as a binary, right/left issue is a huge mistake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Oh yes it is indeed right wing hulabaloo jargon.
Chris Matthews even agrees with me...he showed Limbaugh, Huckabee spreading the anti-TSA message...fear, be afraid, hatred.....The good-olde boys will protect our Constitution crap....Everything they do is against Obama....most of all they smear anything that can be associated with Democrats period....This is one of the issues. It's obviously sticking too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. FarPoint, I thought Chris's segment "Let Me Finish"
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 07:59 AM by rainlillie
On yesterdays shows was outstanding. I agree about the right being against anything Obama is for and really enjoyed reading your comments on this subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FarPoint Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Thank you....
I would enjoy good conversation and discussion along the lines of improvement to the TSA screening process that is productive ...now that has merit and goals. All these other posts and threads I read regarding TSA seem to echo Fox Entertainment rhetoric in my assessment. Criticism and whining without proactive counterpoints is soooooooooooooo easy yet sooooooooooooooo damaging.

O8) Too bad I have to run off to work at the moment........I'll be back with a thread at some point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rainlillie Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Excellent post! I look forward to reading more from you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. I'm not denying that the Right is exploiting it ...
I don't deny for a second that the right wing is exploiting this for all it's worth -- as they try to do with virtually everything. And I agree that, for many of the far right who are screaming about this, were it happening under George W. Bush they wouldn't give one wit about it. I get that. I'm simply saying that it's a mistake to assume that there isn't a great deal of upset on the left about this, for reasons that have little or nothing to do with the rantings of FOX News and the like.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. So if a RW'er told you to not jump off a bridge you'd spite 'em?
It must be wonderful to not have to think for yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Caretha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
41. Anti-TSA is 100% right wing.
Hahahahaha...is this the new 'talking point' of the day? :rofl:

Let me make sure I understand you. What you are saying is if democrats, liberals and progressives point out all the absurdities and nefarious problems with the Transportation Security Administration, we/they are 100% right wing?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
katnapped Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yes, we're hoping Obama will fail
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 08:30 AM by katnapped
Isn't it obvious? :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
53. I disagree
It is not the bottom line. Yet I will state that the right-wing(you know... the same people that established the TSA) is exploiting this, however this does not make my point fall under the guise of right-wing rhetoric.

Here is how I see look at the TSA.

1. The TSA was designed, implemented, rushed into service and was designed to have very little oversight to protect the traveling public from infringements on their rights. I have been against it from the start.
2. The TSA was designed, implemented and rushed into service by a Republican majority. I have been against it from the start.
3. The former head of the DHS appointed by GWB stands to make a lot of money by implementing these body scanners. His firm consults to the ONLY government approved vendor of these machines.
4. There is little to zero redress for any American citizen when their rights are abused by the TSA. This is due to little oversight and a disgraceful amount of powers that they have had appointed to them from a Republican majority when the agency was created.
5. A Democratic Majority Congress voted against the body scanners being installed. Yet the TSA reallocated their budget and took stimulus money to buy them anyway.
6. The machines are a violation of my 4th Amendment rights.
7. The "enhanced" pat-downs are also a violation of my 4th Amendment rights.

Think about it. If you or I scanned some of the people that the TSA is scanning and generated an image of some of those people. We would be arrested for child pornography.

If you or I performed an "enhanced" pat-down before allowing people into our place of business, we would be arrested for sexual assault.

I cannot believe that by making a stand against a government that has appointed itself powers that the people themselves do not retain, you label that stance as right-wing. If it is legal for the government and illegal for the people, that is tyranny.

My safety and your safety are do not surpass the rights of the people.

Remember, our government cannot be held liable for failing to protect us. It is a fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.
See
Town of Castle Rock, Colorado vs. Jessica Gonzales
Warren v. District of Columbia
Riss v. City of New York
Keane v. City of Chicago
Morgan v. District of Columbia
Calogrides v. City of Mobile
Morris v. Musser
Davidson v. City of Westminster
Chapman v. City of Philadelphia
Weutrich v. Delia
Sapp v. City of Tallahassee
Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville
Silver v. City of Minneapolis
Bowers v. DeVito
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I know how pathetic. And we are not really offered safety.
It's more like security theater.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Safety first?
You know, the men who debated and drafted the Constitution certainly knew what it was to live in very dangerous, risky times. They also understood first-hand how easily a government could abuse the authority to conduct unreasonable searches, and thought it enough of a threat to the new republic that they created an amendment specifically designed to draw some pretty clear boundaries around that authority. They created no carve-out or exception in the interest of public safety or security. The standard they required the government to meet was "probable cause," which is a fairly high legal standard. Nowhere does the Constitution fetish-ize "safety" as a preeminent, overriding concern that trumps core civil liberties.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. Fine. Safety first. Why doesn't TSA screen their own guards or other workers as well?
Sorry, didn't mean to pull the curtain back so you can see the ENTIRE theatre.

Back in the day, I read about how a person could fly if they were on the no-fly list.

1) Have a friend buy the ticket and print it out (copy 1).
2) Photoshop a copy so your name matches your ID (copy 2).
3) THe TSA guard checks that copy 2 matches your ID. He doesn't know you're
on the no fly list -- you're in. Throw copy 2 away.
4) Your friend is not on the no fly list -- scan copy 1 at the gate and get on board.

The TSA's response to the guy who pointed this out -- reported him to the FBI as a threat.
The airlines didn't want to check ID at the gate.

A political bureaucracy -- now being supported blindly by progressives SOLELY because their
guy is in charge. Completely SHAMEFUL!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
45. That is why airports round the world are REJECTING these procedures
As inane and ineffective.

I am all for screening that works, not one that gives you the illusion and is reactive to what the other side does..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
51. Knee jerk throwing your rights away is a what a real thinker advocates?
Not even close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Has anyone else noticed this irony . . .
One of the ways the TSA is trying to make the case that the new machines/procedures are "no big deal" is to point out that only 2-3% of passengers will actually experience the new procedures. Well, if 2-3% is so insignificant, how is it that 1/31,000,000th of the commercial flights over the past nine years that have been the targets of terrorist attempts constitutes a such a looming threat?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The whole thing is ridiculous on its face. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. snap
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. kr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. Yeah, sadly, there are DUers who share her sentiment
Personally, I find it ludicrous to even be having this conversation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
27. Did you notice that Ruth starts her opinion piece with
"My family, as it happens, is taking the bus to Grandma's this Thanksgiving. But our choice of transportation has nothing to do with anxiety about leering security screeners or fear of pat-downs."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
28. I haven't flown since 2004, and these invasive, unnecessary and ineffective measures do nothing
to get me to even consider doing so again.

Good riddance, gropers (and the sick bastards in government who enable you.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. I hope Ruth Marcus gets back to us after she catches ringworm from the communal gloves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
44. About that 1 in 31 million chance -
We need more data to judge that number - Are the odds low because no one is interested in bombing our aircraft, or are they low because terrorists are deterred from making attempts by the presence of security? For comparison, I might say I'm sick of wearing my seat belt, that it's annoying and the strap hits my neck. Besides, look at the statistics; how many people go through a windshield these days?

Let's take another look at that 1 in 31 million chance. What if I were a health insurance company that announced that mammograms for women under 50 were no longer covered because there was only a 1 in 31 million chance of an undetected case of breast cancer? The uproar would be fantastic, with dozens of people coming forward to tell the story of how their mammogram saved their life. What if I were an electric utility that stated there was only a 1 in 31 million chance that the reactor would have a meltdown?

31 million individual flights over 10 years? How many TSA horror stories have emerged? 100? 1000? 10,000? Say there are 10,000 horror stories out there, that's roughly 3 a day. We're now balancing a 1 in 3000 chance of being embarrassed at Security vs. a 1 in 30,000,000 of dying. It's a case of balancing risk vs. consequences.

Less heat, more light is needed in this discussion. For example, TSA doesn't care how much shampoo you are carrying. TSA limits and inspects the liquids you carry so it has a better chance of spotting illicit materials. TSA has you take off your belt before you go through the metal detector so your buckle won't set off an alarm. My guess is that someone somewhere has figured out that if 2-3% of travelers are pulled over at random for further checking, that this is a sufficient deterrent to terrorists.

We need to keep asking questions. For example, who is making money off the scanners, and how much did that influence the decision making? However, accusations that all TSA employees are sex perverts and comparisons to Nazi death camps do not add to the discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
46. Submission? Fuck that. n/t
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 12:28 PM by leeroysphitz
ETA: Grow up? Fuck that too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
47. Odds are 1/280,000 of being struck by lightning,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. Wow! Welcome to DU!
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 12:44 PM by lunatica
kicked and rec'd to keep it at the top. Everyone needs to read this.

Also, part of being mature is to understand that there will be incidents and people may lose their lives every once in a while. The US has gotten into the knee jerk habit of thinking everything has to be 100% secure and safe. Sure it's good to try to keep mortality rates down with better safely measures for cars, building materials, etc., but nothing is 100% safe. Nothing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
49. “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed....
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
52. The trouble with Fourth Amendment arguments is no one is looking into it at all
http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=airport_screening_searches_no_longer_con&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

There's just a little information to get started.

http://llr.lls.edu/docs/41-1kornblatt.pdf


Administrative searches are an exception to the Fourth Amendment.

"Administrative searches are not carried out to gather evidence as part of a criminal investigation.67 Rather, administrative searches are performed “as part of a general regulatory scheme in furtherance of an administrative purpose.”68 The Court explained that airline passenger screening is part of a general regulatory scheme, in furtherance of the administrative purpose of preventing weapons or explosives from being carried on to airplanes, in order to prevent hijackings."

"To be valid, administrative searches must meet the standard of reasonableness as required by the Fourth Amendment.70 To be reasonable, a passenger “screening search must be as limited in its intrusiveness as is consistent with satisfaction of the administrative need that justifies it.”

"A person has the choice, as a matter of constitutional law, to submit to a search of her person and carry-on baggage, as a condition to boarding an airplane, or to leave."

"The Court found that a balance must be struck between the harm and the need to determine what is reasonable.84 “When the risk is the jeopardy to hundreds of human lives and millions of dollars of property inherent in the pirating or blowing up of a large airplane, the danger alone meets the test of reasonableness.”

People have litigated every step of increase in airport security, it seems, from reading these articles. So this will be the next case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC