Arne Duncan is now putting his hand in my wallet by calling for an end to master's degree stipends!

[Orlandodem]

Let's just send the message that the amount of education someone has doesn't matter!

I swear to God I will not vote for Obama again. This shit is amazing. I have a family. I have a home. I will not sit by and let my money be taken away from me. Obama and Duncan can burn in hell for all I care. I'm sick of being scapegoated!!!

Democrats on DU better get used to the idea that teachers will not vote for Obama again. That will KILL his reelection chances.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/20/AR2010112002249.html

[vi5]

1. Well, they don't have those in businesses do they?

I mean aren't we supposed to be running our schools like businesses?


I'm being sarcastic. The business world in most cases gives bonuses and higher pay for more education and training. So I guess we're supposed to run our schools like businesses and hold teachers to private industry standards only when it suits us.

The whole thing is ridiculous and seeing people spin and make excuses for this is ridiculous. It's even more upsetting seeing that fucking clown Chris Christie governing my state and doing crap like this and everyone in the education system hating him. But then to see it mimicked and have these things adopted by a Democratic president and the people he appoints. Very upsetting.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orlandodem]

5. Because of the War on Teachers, I will consider voting for the person calls for an end to the

Department of Education.

[LWolf]

47. + 1,000,000

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orlandodem]

4. St. Petersburg Times publishes teacher-by-teacher pass rate on AP exams.

Publicly humiliating teachers for pass rates on a stinking test. Isn't that what Duncan supports? Didn't he support the LA Times publishing test results?

These people HATE us. They can't stand us. They want us gone. Teachers everywhere should be frightened. Anyone considering teaching should have their head examined.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/gradebook/content/teacher-teacher-advanced-placement-results-hillsborough#comments

[MoonRiver]

16. delete

[NotThisTime]

30. Maybe they shouldn't publish this stuff, however a 20% pass rate does not reflect

well on an AP teacher. Either these kids shouldn't be in AP courses or the teacher shouldn't be teaching it for any number of reasons or a school shouldn't offer it. This is not a hit on all teachers. It's a hit on Administrations and teachers who can't effectively teach the AP requirements. Someone on the back end of the process should be evaluating these low scores and why they are occurring.

[jancantor]

40. Are teachers who teach AP courses required to take those same tests themselves

I would assume that knowledge of subject matters, and what better way to test it than... the test students have to take to test on subject matter.

[jaxx]

6. It's your vote,

threatening use of it to "KILL his reelection chances" is your problem.

Back to the issue, it seems odd that a masters guarantees a 'bonus'. That's a big perk, especially when the article says:

Their colleague, research professor Dan Goldhaber, explained that that research dating back to a study he did in 1997 has shown that students of teachers with master's degrees show no better progress in student achievement than their peers taught by teachers without advanced degrees.

[DirkGently]

7. Guess it boils down to whether you value education or not, eh?

Do we want our kids taught by people with the minimum level of training, or with something more than that.

The idea that you can determine the value of a teacher having an advanced degree by tying it to student test scores is laughable, nevermind a 13-yr-old study cherry-picked by a politician.

The question of whether Obama should be held fully accountable for the recent attacks on teachers is one thing. Defending the attacks themselves is another. It's putrid corporatist pseudo-logic, and we can do better here.

[jaxx]

10. No, it boils down to whether you think someone is worth a big bonus

because they have a masters. People with masters are working at McDonalds.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. What a ridiculous argument

And I see it more and more here on DU. Because one group is hurting, everyone else should. It's also pretty lame.

[jaxx]

13. Hardly.

What it says is that people with masters who don't have the built in safety nets are out there job hunting like so many others. Jobs are gotten and kept on merit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Why the hell would we not value educating educators?

That makes zero sense.

Of course it's cheaper to pay untrained folks to teach kids to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. The untrained also are less likely to speak up when stupid policies that are damaging to kids are enacted. That makes sense.

You can pretend this is about merit if you want. Those of us who actually work in education know better.

[jaxx]

19. Education is valuable for everyone.

It's what they do with it that counts.

[jancantor]

41. In my (civil service) job we get a stipend for BA's and MA's

Of course we get an extra TWO PERCENT for a MA (or MS)...

Not very much

[Hannah Bell]

37. no, it means exactly what she says it does.

[DirkGently]

18. Students aren't hamburgers. If we don't believe education has intrinsic value, what is education

for? If additional education doesn't matter for *educators* why not just staff public universities with people holding G.E.D.'s?

And these are not "big bonuses." Wall Street pays big bonuses. If they're lucky, teachers get enough compensation to encourage them to get an advanced degree. In many states, the teacher is paying the cost of the degree themselves, which they likely couldn't afford without the promise of a raise, given that we pay teachers about the same as burger flippers to start with.

These attacks on teachers are not in good faith. They are not an attempt to improve education. They are dishonest and fallacious rhetoric attempting to gut public education and turn schools into profit centers for private corporations, which ought to work out about as well as private prisons and private military contractors.

[Missy Vixen]

31. In Washington State, one can't get a job teaching without the "fifth year".

In other words, Arne Duncan and his little friends believe it's okay to financially penalize teachers for the requirement of having a Masters.

This will knock aspiring teachers out of the running in overwhelming numbers. Why should prospective teachers fork out tens of thousands for an education (and continuing education) with no offsetting salary?

[bonnieS]

11. I remember,

Because I am not all that young, when it was said that women did not need to be educated because they were only going to be housewives. The argument later became: women should be educated so they can be interesting for their husbands to talk to. At some point, the argument finally became that women should be educated because they were human beings who should have full humanity.

The idea that a teacher should not be educated because he or she only has to know that 1+1=2 is not only anti-intellectual, it negates the whole purpose of learning anything. Children should be inspired by their teachers. They should admire them. They should admire that they are learned and have spent a lot of time in school so that they can be full human beings with greater knowledge, and greater creativity, and greater thinking capacity, and not just automatons, who blindly go through radiation machines without even thinking about whether there is a risk of cancer or not.

If children believe that teachers are just there to get them through a test, and that education as a goal in and of itself is stupid, then we as a country are lost.

[DirkGently]

20. Beautifully said. Denigrating advanced degrees for teachers IS anti-intellectuallism.

[jancantor]

44. Part of the argument is that when the MA is in Education

that it is not of the same worth as a Masters in, for example, Engineering, Physics, Language, etc. Considering the graduate school standardized exam scores for those who end up in different Masters programs, that is at least something to consider. When I was back east, a whole bunch of State Trooper friends of mine got (largely) worthless Masters degrees from a quite cheesy (but apparently accredited) college so they could get an extra 10% iirc.

I'm not taking a side here, but I do consider that all Masters degrees are not created equal

[TBF]

21. Define "student achievement". Are you talking about your precious test scores again? nt

[CreekDog]

36. why are his people scapegoating us like this?

Obama can't try to stop bonuses to bankers, but his Education Chief can make an issue of small stipends for continuing education for teachers --teachers that almost always make in the 5-figure range.

He can't make airlines secure ALL their cargo, but his political appointee at TSA can force millions of Americans to have x-rays to their bodies --some people will in fact be forced to have 4-20 x-rays of their bodies (per one way trip) and will not be able to opt-out.

I don't want to suggest that Obama is our enemy.

But his people are treating us like WE ARE.

[lonestarnot]

8. Will America see an uproar over it? Or will people meekly accept it?

[TBF]

23. Wait til they get their scanners set up at the doors of the schools (you think I'm joking ...) nt

[DirkGently]

9. It's a ridiculous, insulting proposal. The whole idea that we're going to evaluate teachers

and education itself, in terms of student test scores is ludicrous. There is a universe of factors that go into student achievement, and the suggestion that's being pushed that the problem with our educational system is that teachers are overpaid is a cynical, truly evil bit of propaganda being pushed by, apparently, private companies looking for an excuse to turn public schools into profit centers.

Whether Obama should bear the brunt of the teachers' righteous wrath is perhaps open to question. But I'm embarrassed for the forum that you were attacked for daring to complain about this. No liberal or progressive should support these transparent attempts to demonize teachers, of all people for the mess our underfunded, under-appreciated public education system has become.

Thanks for posting.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. My sister who is in human resources has a masters that her company paid for

and she got a big raise when she finished her degree.

She works for a company that values education and well trained employees so much they pick up the cost of highly training the employees.

Amazing concept, isn't it? I can remember when school districts and state education depts used to do the same for teachers. Being in the business of education, it only made sense to pay the employees more for being highly educated.

But now we are being convinced that TFA recruits with no training in education can do a better job of teaching our children than a teacher with a masters degree. Plus they are cheaper.

Sigh.

[MoonRiver]

17. Totally agree

I'm retiring this year and am counting the days, literally. This business has become a rat race. Teachers and related services (me) are forced to work harder and longer each year. As a reward we are assaulted by our districts, states and national government. TAKE THIS JOB AND SHOVE IT!

[TBF]

22. I'm not voting for him either. I'm boycotting the next election. It's just theatre anyway. nt

[JackintheGreen]

24. Serious question on pay restructuring

I used to be a teacher, and my mother and three of my grandparents were teachers, so I am not pulling this question out of whole cloth.

My understanding of the Master's degree for a teacher is that most teachers get them in order to earn the bonus. My mother did. My maternal grandmother did. Some people earn them in order to pursue administration jobs, but most get them for the bonus. This seems fair to me. Teacher's are paid ass and most would do anything to feel like they are actually valued for their job.

But what if - and I don't believe Dincan is proposing this - what if pay was restructured in such a way that teacher's were actually paid a decent and fair wage? What if you could earn what you earn now simply by the merits of you're being a teacher? I have yet to see evidence that convinces me that two more years of school would make anybody a better 3rd grade teacher.

This might suck for you. You're pay wouldn't change, but it would no longer be tied to an MA bonus and a bunch of teachers around you would without MAs would get matching salaries. But maybe then teachers could focus on things that do make you a better teacher without struggling through 2+ years of night school to earn a little bit more in their paycheck. And the next generation of teachers will never notice the change.

I suspect I didn't express this well. I expect to get taken to task for this. But I wanted to put it out there.

[diddlysquat]

25. Another point

Teachers DO earn the MA so they can get a higher salary BUT they have to pay for the Masters credits themselves. School districts put pressure on teachers to earn a Masters but generally offer no financial assistance to do so other than a small increase in pay. Nowadays, after earning the Masters, the teacher is then "pressured" to get National Board Certification. All this brings prestige to the school district. Those who have earned national Board Certification have told me that it does not actually make them a better teacher but does make them more aware of what they are doing. Many districts/states give an extra stipend for passing national boards.

[Yupster]

27. What's a decent and fair wage?

Here's a state by state website showing state average teacher salaries.

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary.html

California 63,000
New York 56,000
Texas 41,000

Check your own state here.

PS - My wife and I were both teachers. We both got our Master's to get the stipend too. My degree work was completely worthless. My wife said she learned stuff.

Anyway, thought it was interesting for people to be able to compare their state.

[msanthrope]

33. The Baltimore Teacher's Union just voted to pay restructure along these lines.....

Of course, these are collaborationists who fomented an unfair election....since the actions of this teacher's union don't fit into the accepted meme here.
:sarcasm:


In doing the vote, the BTU made themselves the highest-paid teachers in the state, and gave high-achieving teachers the possibility of moving up the pay scale quicker. It also gives them credit for professional development that they have to do anyway.

It passed by a near 2 to 1 margin.


http://www.wbaltv.com/r/25830024/detail.html

http://wjz.com/local/new.contract.teachers.2.2013646.html

[Hannah Bell]

42. FALSE. It doesn't make them the highest paid in the state, as I showed you twice before.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9593317&mesg_id=9600021

So why don't you stop repeating that FALSEHOOD?

Also, since the union leadership FORCED the teachers to VOTE A SECOND TIME because they didn't like the results of the first vote.

[LWolf]

48. Depending on licensing requirements of each state,

in some states not getting the masters keeps teachers from getting licenses further up the rung, which open more doors for what kinds of jobs they are qualified for. There are "temporary," "initial," "continuing," and other kinds of licenses to qualify for.

[ecstatic]

26. Looks like another sleeper has been activated...

Anyhow, the article says, "Economists want to stop teachers' degree bonuses." Arne Duncan is not the central focus of the article and he has NOT called for an end to the bonuses. For a teacher, you seem to have poor reading comprehension skills. Maybe the economists have a point? :shrug:

[DirkGently]

28. Duncan's certainly making the same argument. The poster's reading comprehension is just fine.

Duncan told the American Enterprise Institute on Wednesday that master's degree bonuses are an example of spending money on something that doesn't work.

[Autumn]

49. Kind of like the wars, but mustn't cut that spending.

This administration is full of idiots.

[DirkGently]

50. Can't take from the Haves, you know, when the Have Nots are living so large.

[madfloridian]

34. Arne and Bill Gates are making it a goal to end pay for advanced degrees.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/7017

It's shameful, and the OP is correct.

[Hannah Bell]

45. Nice smear. Let's see: The Washington Post, which gets 70% of its profits

from its for-profit education arm, Kaplan (recently in the news because of its fraudulent business practices,) titles its hit-piece "Economists want to stop teachers degree bonuses".

In the little propaganda piece, the Post mentions an "economist" who works for the right-wing Hoover Institute, three "scholars" from the UW's Gates-funded ed deform institution "Center for Reinventing Education," only 1 of whom is an economist, & an economist from U of Missouri, most of whose "research" is about how to pay teachers less.

You take the poster to task for saying that teachers aren't going to vote for Obama & his teacher-scapegoating education policy.

You say because Arne Duncan isn't the "focus" of this propaganda piece, the poster demonstrates poor reading comprehension skills that show the (three) "economists" have a "point" (implied point: teachers are too stupid to merit education bonuses).

On the contrary, the poster's comprehension is just fine: the poster comprehends that this is another one of many hit-piece on teachers from the WaPo in furtherance of the ed deform policy being carried out by Arne Duncan for the Obama administration, and that Duncan was quoted in the article:

"Duncan told the American Enterprise Institute on Wednesday that master's degree bonuses are an example of spending money on something that doesn't work."

So take your smear & stuff it.

[Bigmack]

29. I taught upper-middle class kids...

in AP classes in High School.

Master's degree... shit... I needed everything I could get. Half the time I felt like the Russians on the sled trying to outrun the wolf pack.

Take a class of 25 kids with an average IQ of 125 and a burning desire to go to a great university and parents who are pushing them 24/7, and you have a recipe for a teacher that needs all the education he can get.

How about the other end of the spectrum? Kids who need extra work to come up to grade level need teachers with all the education they can get, too.

Duncan is a leader in killing public education. He needs to go.

[madfloridian]

32. He's following Gates' policies, letting him set the agenda.

Their words and goals are exactly the same. He is turning over our education system to Bill Gates and other billionaires.

And Obama is letting him do it.

[Barack_America]

35. Gotta love Gates, the billionaire, complaining about teachers earning an extra $11K.

Nevermind that he could single-handedly fund these bonuses himself. And as for his company, they've made quite a mint selling their products to public school systems, haven't they? Perhaps we should focus on trimming the waste on crappy Microsoft products?

[Dappleganger]

38. Race to the bottom!!

Who will get there first??

[The Midway Rebel]

39. In my state, there is no such thing a s lifelong teaching certificate.

Continuing teacher education is REQUIRED by law. In my case at least, the MA is not about the stipend, it is about following the law.

[madfloridian]

46. Every state requires re-certification. In FL it is every 5 years.

So that is just a faux talking point.

[TBF]

43. How would he know the value of a Master's Degree - it's not like he has one. nt