Question about aircraft carriers

[patrick t. cakes]

What do 6,000 plus people do on those things?


North Korea says region is on 'brink of war'

Source: MSNBC

SEOUL — North Korea on Wednesday accused Seoul of "reckless military provocation" — a day after an artillery attack left at least four people dead on a South Korean island.

A U.S. aircraft carrier group also set off for Korean waters, a move likely to enrage Pyongyang and unsettle its ally, China.

The nuclear-powered USS George Washington, which carries 75 warplanes and has a crew of over 6,000

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4627295>

[Drale]

1. They are a floating city

they act as the command for entire region's, what battleships where in the past is what aircraft carriers are now.

[patrick t. cakes]

3. 6000 is a lot of people

i never would have guessed that that many live and work on those things

[Webster Green]

12. Yes, they are.

It's been 45 years since I was on one, but it was quite an experience. You could score really good dope in certain "hoods" aboard the carrier. I was on a destroyer in the group, so I was just visiting. We were doing flight ops in Vietnam.

I'm sure it hasn't changed much since then, except the killing technology is more efficient. :smoke:

[Cid_B]

34. Possibly a bit more efficient drug testing....

[rocktivity]

23. I used to work in a highrise overlooking New York City's Husdson River

I enjoyed watching all the ferries, barges, and pleasure craft coming and going. And by looking farther north, I could see the piers where the cruise ships would pull in. When I saw my first cruise ship go up the river, I couldn't believe how big it was. "It looks like a floating apartment building," I said. To which a co-worker replied, "It IS a floating apartment building!"

:headbang:
rocktivity

[Drale]

2. *Self Delete*

Double Post

[Confusious]

4. Well, one airplane might take a crew of about 20

Weapons officers, weapons crews, repair crews, fuel crews, launch crews, defense crews, flight crews, air control, Oh, engine crew, ship repair crews, lets not forget the marines for security, command and control of the entire battle group, and then the supply for all those people. The cooks, janitors, etc.

It adds up quick.

[Swede]

6. Not to mention the nuclear reactors need tending.

[sarge43]

13. Munitions maint, avionics specs, comm, the yeomen crowd,

chaplains and their assistants, fire fighters, the gang taking care of the dragon in the basement.

An Air Force tactical wing base has o/a 5K personnel assigned, same difference.

[bluescribbler]

17. Gotta take care of that dragon in the basement.

He's the one who keeps the ship moving.

[sarge43]

18. Yup and making sure he stays on his leash. n/t

[Angry Dragon]

24. Don't really like to stay in the basement nor leashes

:toast:

[Fridays Child]

5. Work, sleep, eat, and work out.

[patrick t. cakes]

7. are there bars, restaurants, theaters? n/t

[Swede]

9. The US navy is dry,unlike Canada and UK's.

You can still get yer grog with them.

[UTUSN]

8. Yea, I don't get the question but will answer

As previous posters have said, go-to-work/ sleep/ work-out...

I will add, do your 8-hours job, catch a nap, write a letter to your significant-others, play cards, do guitar...

[denbot]

10. 8 Hours?!?!?!? The Navy's gotten soft.

It was explained to me that working a half day was 12 hours..

[UTUSN]

16. Who are you, again?!1 n/t

[Obamanaut]

39. I was on several carriers as part of the air wing. We did shifts of 12 on/ 12 off.

I don't know what the ship's company people worked, but I heard tales of 4 on / 4 off - cannot verify this.

I do know that the folks who worked in the bowels of the ship really liked it when someone from the airwing would outfit them in the proper gear and take them on the flight deck during a launch/recovery cycle.

Part of my pre-tour speech was "Stay close enough that you can touch me. I run, you run. I duck, you duck. I go over the side - don't follow, tell someone."

I loved working on the flight deck. I loved working on aircraft my whole 28 years.

[NuclearDem]

11. There's a lot of jobs on the carrier that need done

They basically have to carry out all the functions of a military base but at sea.

The Carrier Air Wing usually is around ~2500 people; they fly the aircraft, maintain them, work on the deck flightline, or do some other support functions flight-wise.

The other 3000 or so people on board are called the Ship's Company; they operate everything non-flight related; the defensive guns, the reactor, mess hall, electronics, general maintenance, etc. Aircraft carriers are big ships; they need a lot of people to attend to them.

[Travis_0004]

14. And every job has 2 people

Since they don't work 24 hour shifts, if a job takes 30 people, you need at least 60, so one person can do it when the other person is off.

[applegrove]

15. When they pull into a port city, like Halifax, NS, they take over the city and it is boom times for

all the businesses.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. a ship at sea is in a constant state of maintenance

scraping and repainting the decks to prevent rust, aircraft maintenance, reactor maintenance, cooking, laundry, commissary, radar and navigation, etc etc. Plus the Marine detachment.

[Bigmack]

20. You squids..

could you tell us your views about the relative vulnerability of the carriers.

Yeah, I know about all the AA, and Phalanx, and screens and all like that,

but....

Those Chinese are clever people, and I know their Sunburns are pretty hot.

What do you think about the possibility of losing a carrier... and those 6000 people to an attack.

(I'm thinking about the sinking of the Repulse and the Prince of Wales in the western Pacific at the beginning of WWII. Nobody thought battleships could be sunk in the open sea by airplanes.)

[Ian David]

22. China just developed a land-to-see ballistic missile for which there is no defense.

Anti-ship ballistic missile

An anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) is a quasiballistic missile, of medium or intermediate range, designed to hit a ship at sea. Currently, there are no ship-board defense mechanisms that can counter an ASBM.<1> A single hit from an ASBM has the potential to cripple or outright destroy a supercarrier.

Unlike a typical ballistic missile, which follows a sub-orbital ballistic flightpath after the relatively brief initial powered phase of flight, an ASBM requires, it seems, some kind of terminal guidance system to home in on its target.

China has developed the world's only anti-ship ballistic missile. It has successfully developed and tested the DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile, with a range of up to 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi) or more, in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense. It is estimated to have reached initial operating capability in 2007 or 2008. It is thought that it is still in an evolutionary process as more UAV and satellites are added.<2> The DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile is expected to enter active service by 2009.<3><4>

China is reported to be working on an Over-the-horizon radar to locate the targets for the ASBM.<5>

The United States Navy has responded by switching its focus from a close blockade force of shallow water vessels to return to building deep water ballistic defense destroyers.<6>

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_ballistic_missile

Basically, at the push of a button it can stomp-out a supercarrier like it was a bug.

That is, if it works as advertised.

[Pavulon]

25. The defense is Minuteman ICBM or Trident D5. Because that looks like a ballistic missile launch

it would trigger a thermonuclear war. It looks just like the start of a nuclear exchange. China has a rich culture which the would prefer not be exterminated.

That weapon would only be used during or to start a nuclear war.

Oh and our shit does work as advertised, tested and verified.

[Pavulon]

28. The sunburn was at one time a joint us russian program, we used it for a target drone

china could attack it, and we could destroy every dam in china at the exact same time. killing millions. again why would either nation pursue this course?

[Bigmack]

30. "...why would either nation pursue this course..."

Damned if I know.... but shit happens all the time in geopolitics that make absolutely no sense to me.

Wild surmise... What happens if China wants to remove the US as an Imperial power from the western Pacific in one swoop? We'd still have to buy their shit, since we apparently can't make anything. You think Pres Obama would nuke China over one carrier? I dunno. But then, I'm dunno a lot about how the Big Power Players think.

The Japanese hoped to kick us out of the western Pacific and put all their chips into the Pearl Harbor attack. We beat them with unlimited supplies of war materials. Could we do it again? I dunno.

I just wanted to know if carriers are "invulnerable", and the ballistic missile Ian David posted above answers that question.

For what it's worth, I take great comfort in your assurance that nobody wants to do something as crazy as start a nuclear exchange. I hope you are right.

[Pavulon]

43. Yes we would go to war over "one carrier" a strategic nuclear asset

we may not use nuclear weapons but there would be a significant response. We make plenty including the weapon systems that would be used to kill millions in a conventional war with china (or any other major power) We make lots of things, just not plastic dog shit and cheap shirts.

Ian should spend more time in Jane's Defense. Like I said that weapon would require targeting the carrier (finding it) and hitting it (not that easy, MLRS cost billions to develop) and would start a nuclear war.

Launching ballistic missiles is how you start a nuclear war.

And yes, if the satellites see a heat signature and boost phase activity from a ICBM leaving china a nuclear war is a probable outcome.

[Bigmack]

47. Lemme get this straight...

You believe we would go nuclear - or near-nuclear - if one of our carriers was taken out...? And you support that?

You believe that millions of deaths and the end of the world we know is the logical next step after the loss of one ship and 6,000 people? That ship and those people being over 5000 miles from our shores.

I thought we were done with MAD and Massive Retaliation. I thought we'd relegated "Dr. Strangelove" to a quaint Cold War period piece.

How about this instead: We pull our carriers our of waters the Chinese control or say they control. Remove them as a threat.

China has a huge imbalance of trade with us... they need us. Hell, they OWN us, what with their loans that prop us up. What would we do without China's goods? We don't actually make the stuff they sell us anymore.

We can't afford to be an Empire anymore. We better figure a different way.

[daleo]

21. Imagine the taxes

Consider how many tax payers work like slaves to keep that one ship going. One hundred thousand? Five hundred thousand? A million?

[Pavulon]

26. I work happily and have no problem paying for useful programs

like medicare and defense spending.

[daleo]

29. That's what democracy is all about

Though there is a divergence of opinion about what is useful, and there is a deficit problem either way.

[Bigmack]

32. Lemme see...medicare takes care of old people...

and "defense" takes care of.... hmmm... defense contractors?

$3200 for every man woman and child in the US... for "defense"? Per year. That we borrow.

700 overseas bases?

B-2 bombers at $2.2 Billion a copy, and we have 21 of them? 60 hours of maintenance for every hour in the air? And no mission.

How about the Joint Strike Fighter? Is there a credible mission?

The "boomer" subs sail by my place practically daily. Do they have a mission these days.

And let's not forget how that multi-trillion dollar "defense" and "intelligence" arm was unable to defend us from 19 guys with box cutters.

We can afford to take care of our old people, but we can't continue with the defense spending we're doing.

[Pavulon]

45. Their mission is to make lil kims asshole clinch when he considers using a nuclear weapon

their mission is to provide a independent capability to destroy a nation completely. The b2 is capable of a blind first strike (drop dozens of B61 gravity bombs at 500kt over targets) but that is not part of our policy.

The boomers allow us to kill every single human in china in response to a nuclear first strike that destroyed air based options. They are the other 2 arms of a trinity of systems.

That role is deterrence. The day those systems go to day we all die, or get to live in a world very different than today.

[JDPriestly]

35. Pavulon, do you think that all defense spending is useful?

I doubt it. Some of it is useful and necessary, but a lot of it is not. That is my opinion.

[Pavulon]

41. Not all of it.

some of it funds programs with little real practical use. Much of it employs americans in high paying union jobs and provides a needed security role.

[guitar man]

27. Everything you can imagine

There's everything from a barbershop to a medical clinic to you name it. My dad's non combat jib on the ship he was on was in the ship's print shop. It's virtually a floating city with a whole lot of jobs to be done to keep it going.

[krispos42]

31. The planes are maintenence-intensive. Lots of manpower

And redundancy, too. The air wing crew has to be able to repair planes, recover them, launch them, arm them, etc., around the clock. A carrier has about 48 jet fighters, maybe 5 electronics-warfare planes, four or five AWACS radar planes, and probably a couple of dozen helicopters for anti-submarines and search-and-rescue work.

The carrier does task force intelligence as well as targeting for the force; this includes both the combat aircraft and the firepower of the surface and submarine escorts. That's a lot of people involved in things like electronics/signals intelligence, photo-recon, satellite imaging, figuring out enemy order-of-battle, etc. They also have to coordinate with the other branches of the military and figure out battle plans on a tactical and strategic level.

The carrier also coordinates the task force's offensive and defensive efforts.


Plus all the usual stuff: cooking, cleaning, maintenence, etc.

[OxQQme]

33. Not to mention the support fleet

Carriers don't wander around in the water without several other classes of ships with their attendant crews.

Cousin was on the USS Forrestal carrier back in the early sixties and told me that it could outrun the whole
support fleet as it was the most valuable to a mission.

[madokie]

40. My brother was on the Ranger

a carrier has to have a 55 knot wind across the flight deck to launch and land fighters so what do they do when the wind isn't blowing, yup they go 55 plus knots which is way more than the other tenders can go. I don't remember the formula but there is a formula that can be used to figure out the top speed of a displacement hull, it takes in the width and the length of the part thats in the water to determine that speed. Thats why a carrier is long and narrow at the water line.


Link to formula: http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__hull_speed.htm

another link: http://www.solarnavigator.net/hull_speed.htm

[Obamanaut]

44. Actually, with the catapult system, a carrier can launch dead in the

water.

The Ranger was/is Forrestal class, and would not make 55 knots, top speed was listed as 30+.

1.5 times the square root of the waterline will give a ball park figure of top speed for displacement hull (IIRC)

edited to add - this link has some Ranger photos http://www.navysite.de/cvn/cv61.htm

[bluescribbler]

46. They can launch, but they can't land at that speed

I was a tin can sailor. Spent many weeks as escort for bird farms at Yankee Station, in the Tonkin Gulf. USS America, Bon Homme Richard, Coral Sea, and others.

[Obamanaut]

48. I flew over y'all in an EC121 for radar support. Based in Guam, we

flew support out of DaNang and ChuLai.

Following that tour, I spent a lot of time in tailhooks, making deployments on the USS Kennedy, America, Independence, Eisenhower, and the Midway (two years forward deployed in Yokosuka, Japan)

Usta watch the refueling ops for the tin cans, standing in the catwalk. We'd be smooth sailing, tin cans bouncing all over the place. Often wondered if you strapped yourselves in to sleep.

You're right about the launch vs land.

[bluescribbler]

49. Every rack had two straps

You could hook the ends to the edge of the rack.

Had to refuel in the middle of a typhoon once. Had no choice. Fuel was down to 11%. The seas were 20 feet. Now THAT was hairy!

[patrick t. cakes]

36. thanks all, for the info. n/t

[unhappycamper]

37. If you liked the $4.5 billion dollar USS George Washington, you'll love the $40 billion dollar

USS Gerald R Ford.

The price to play is going up.

[MrScorpio]

38. Remember that everyone works in shifts, it's required redundancy

So, you'll have different people providing 24 hour operation during the day.

I figure three shifts of crew members would cover. So at any given time, 2000 are on duty and the other 4000 are either supplementing those on duty or taking care of whatever they have to do while off shift.

I've never been on a carrier, I was in the USAF, but I figure that if these groups go out to sea for months at a time and there's no possibility of your standard land based garrisoning of troops, that's how it would be done.

[B Calm]

42. Some do the laundry, some do the cooking, some raise the flag up

and down, some mop the decks, some do the painting, some help land the aircraft, some of them run the ship store, some do the hair cutting, some of them do the damage control during battle, some of them fire guns during battle, egads we go on forever!