Is it likely that the scanning and groping may cause permanant trauma among some children and adults

[grahamhgreen]

Poll question: Is it likely that the scanning and groping may cause permanant trauma among some children and adults

Changed wording for clarity.

[LostInAnomie]

1. No.

Even kids understand context.

[grahamhgreen]

10. Will you agree this child did not understand the context?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x529399

[LostInAnomie]

21. Then the parents should have explained it.

Kids cry and freak out over things. It's the job of the parents to help make sure things that may be scary don't become traumatizing.

[sabrina 1]

28. Parents and teachers these days spend a lot of time teaching

children about not being touched by strangers. The little three-year-old girl filmed crying and telling the TSA to 'stop touching me' was doing what children who have learned that no stranger has a right to touch them.

Now, you are saying that parents need to modify their approach to protecting their children and tell their toddlers 'well, it's okay if some strangers touch you'. So now you are confusing the child. How does a 3 year-old decide which stranger is okay and which one is not?

One thing everyone knows about children is that you need to be consistent with them. But all of this is a distraction. The reason all of this wrong is because it is first of all, not necessary and second it is a violation of Constitutional rights. The odds of someone dying by terror are so miniscule that any intelligent person has to ask why so much money is being spent on this tiny, by comparison, threat to people's safety.

If the government cared about preserving lives, they would all that money on saving the lives of the 44,000 Americans who die each year from lack of healthcare. Or they would spend it on making flying safely less susceptible to 'pilot error'. Fly is NOT safe, it never will be. This whole hysteria is being created to make use of fear to profit from 9/11. Giving up rights for such a small threat to safety is completely illogical considering the other far more real threats people are faced with every single day.

[woo me with science]

2. It is WRONG even if it doesn't!

It is a fundamental violation of our liberty, privacy, and dignity. It is a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights.

[liberal N proud]

30. +1000

[Arctic Dave]

3. We all know what the pedophiles will wear when they a duct their victims.

Chester needs you to step in his van for national security.

[bemildred]

4. Does not really seem to rise to the level of getting a leg blown off, for example.

Which is what I think of when someone says "trauma". Not that I want to defend groping children, but one has to make appropriate discriminations or risk acting stupidly and making the situation worse.

[grahamhgreen]

6. Yes, but almost EVERY child will be subject to this. nt

[bemildred]

9. No they won't.

I don't fly, I think the TSA groping/scanning is unconstitutional bullshit, and dumb as shit to boot. However, that does not make it "trauma", and it does not make children fragile flowers.

[grahamhgreen]

15. So you are

Saying none will be traumatized?

[bemildred]

17. I am trying to defend the meaning of "trauma" as something life-threatening.

As opposed to just something scary. I am sure that there will be children who are scared or hurt in other ways, however from personal experience I can say that being a child and having your genitals touched is not intrinsically a big deal, most of how children react to things like that depends on clues they get from adults.

[TorchTheWitch]

26. trauma doesn't mean life threatening

Emotional trauma can be and often is a fuck load more traumatizing than physical trauma. How the hell can you say something like this knowing that suffering emotional trauma can be so debilitating that people kill themselves over it? Where were you scoffing at those bullied kids that were so traumatized they killed themselves? Or vicims of rape, child molestation, assault, domestic abuse... how DARE you say that these victims aren't traumatized just because their life wasn't threatened!!!!

[bemildred]

27. You seem upset. Are you trying to traumatize me? nt

[woo me with science]

35. The point is irrelevant anyway.

Is this REALLY our new baseline, that anything goes for this government as long as it doesn't cause nightmares and flashbacks?

Sheesh.

Some things are WRONG whether they are traumatic or not. Violation of our Fourth Amendment right to be secure in our persons against government intrusion is WRONG, whether the person FEELS traumatized or not.

[bemildred]

44. True.

Somewhat in the neighborhood of what I was trying to get at. It is the wrong argument against this.

[TorchTheWitch]

24. do you seriously have no understanding of emotional trauma?

For fuck's sake!

[bemildred]

25. Not really, no. Explain it to me. nt

[grahamhgreen]

32. Psychological trauma

Psychological trauma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. When that trauma leads to posttraumatic stress disorder, damage may involve physical changes inside the brain and to brain chemistry, which damage the person's ability to adequately cope with stress.

A traumatic event involves a single experience, or an enduring or repeating event or events, that completely overwhelm the individual's ability to cope or integrate the ideas and emotions involved with that experience. The sense of being overwhelmed can be delayed by weeks, years or even decades, as the person struggles to cope with the immediate circumstances. Psychological trauma can lead to serious long-term negative consequences that are often overlooked even by mental health professionals: "If clinicians fail to look through a trauma lens and to conceptualize client problems as related possibly to current or past trauma, they may fail to see that trauma victims, young and old, organize much of their lives around repetitive patterns of reliving and warding off traumatic memories, reminders, and affects."<1>

Trauma can be caused by a wide variety of events, but there are a few common aspects. There is frequently a violation of the person's familiar ideas about the world and of their human rights, putting the person in a state of extreme confusion and insecurity. This is also seen when people or institutions, depended on for survival, violate or betray or disillusion the person in some unforeseen way.<2>

Psychological trauma may accompany physical trauma or exist independently of it. Typical causes and dangers of psychological trauma are sexual abuse, bullying, domestic violence, the victim of alcoholism, the threat of either, or the witnessing of either, particularly in childhood. Catastrophic events such as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, war or other mass violence can also cause psychological trauma. Long-term exposure to situations such as extreme poverty or milder forms of abuse, such as verbal abuse, can be traumatic (though verbal abuse can also potentially be traumatic as a single event).

However, different people will react differently to similar events. One person may experience an event as traumatic while another person would not suffer trauma as a result of the same event. In other words, not all people who experience a potentially traumatic event will actually become psychologically traumatized.<3>

Some theories suggest childhood trauma can lead to violent behavior. Some ideas believe such violent behavior can be as extreme as serial murder. For example, Hickey's Trauma-Control Model which suggests "childhood trauma for serial murderers may serve as a triggering mechanism resulting in an individual’s inability to cope with the stress of certain events."<4>

[bemildred]

43. The question was "emotional trauma", not "psychological trauma".

That definition lacks precision. However, I do in fact believe that people can suffer from something you could call "psychological trauma" from things that happen to them, I just don't think that it happens automatically when someone fondles your privates. I don't think anyone should be fondling small childrens privates as a "security measure" either, but calling it "emotional trauma" just muddies the water and looks foolish. Any sort of "trauma" requires a "traumatic event", as your somewhat circular definition admits, and the fondling of your body does not rise to that level as such. Health care providers do it, parents do it, cops and immigration officers do it, other children do it and adults do it (willingly allowed to do it, encouraged no less), so hysteria is not the appropriate attitude.

[emulatorloo]

5. Any child who has been thru airport security knows about airport security

Any child who hasn't been thru airport security will be told about it before hand.

P.S. They've had these pat-downs for a really long time. Bush era

[grahamhgreen]

7. They have not had their naked scan spammed all over FaceBook! They may NEVER have had an adult

touch their private areas.

These things can be traumatic for people.

[emulatorloo]

18. got a link to a "scanner photos on facebook" story?

had not heard about that.

[grahamhgreen]

36. No, but i promise you, it's coming. Especially vulnerable will be attractive/celebrity women.

As the technology becomes more accurate and available, we may be seeing these at our local sports arena.

There is no way these photos will never get leaked. Just look at wikileaks!

[emulatorloo]

46. That photo is a FAKE -- see here: "These TSA porn photos would be alarming — if they were real"

http://trueslant.com/KashmirHill/2010/01/27/tsa-scanner-porn-hoax-fools-gizmodo-drudge-report/

These TSA porn photos would be alarming — if they were real

Earlier this month, Gizmodo and the Drudge Report posted the images below. The first is supposed to be from the TSA’s whole body imaging machines, and the second is supposed to be the image after it’s been “inverted” and “tinted” using Photoshop. Redacted version below, and original pornoriffic version here:



<SNIP>

The first clue to this being a hoax is that people don’t usually assume the Jesus pose while being checked out by TSA personnel. In fact, the woman is not a frequent flyer. She’s a nude model; this photo comes from this shoot

Body in 360° (Dominique Douieb)
Body in 360∞
Agentur: PhotoAlto
Preis: 699.00 EURO
http://www.f1online.de/f1online/index.cfm?location=search&colNo=2274&language=1

Here’s that particular shot:



So yeah…. the image that Drudge Report and Gizmodo linked was hot and made TSA images seem like they could be hot. But most images look like this:



Not hot.

There are certainly reasons to be concerned about these scanners, including how horrifically expensive they are. But these photos were misleading and not reflective of what can actually be done with TSA porn.

Neither Gizmodo nor Drudge have acknowledged that the photos they posted were fake, though Gizmodo commenters have pointed it out.

<MORE AT LINK>

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. Oy vey

:rofl:

Will the stupidities never cease?

It's actually getting amusing.

[grahamhgreen]

12. Maybe the point is to traumatize the society as a whole.

[emulatorloo]

19. I am starting to wonder, have you ever been through airport security?

The pat-downs have existed since bush era. Not every body gets a pat down. Usually after metal detector has gone off repeatedly and they can't figure what is setting it off.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. ROFL

Yes, there are people sitting in a room saying, "How can we traumatize society as a whole? I know! We'll institute pointless airport security pat-downs!"

:rofl:

Jeeeez-us.

[grahamhgreen]

33. The Shock Doctrine

The Shock Doctrine

In THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, Naomi Klein explodes the myth that the global free market triumphed democratically. Exposing the thinking, the money trail and the puppet strings behind the world-changing crises and wars of the last four decades, The Shock Doctrine is the gripping story of how America’s “free market” policies have come to dominate the world-- through the exploitation of disaster-shocked people and countries.

At the most chaotic juncture in Iraq’s civil war, a new law is unveiled that would allow Shell and BP to claim the country’s vast oil reserves…. Immediately following September 11, the Bush Administration quietly out-sources the running of the “War on Terror” to Halliburton and Blackwater…. After a tsunami wipes out the coasts of Southeast Asia, the pristine beaches are auctioned off to tourist resorts.... New Orleans’s residents, scattered from Hurricane Katrina, discover that their public housing, hospitals and schools will never be reopened…. These events are examples of “the shock doctrine”: using the public’s disorientation following massive collective shocks – wars, terrorist attacks, or natural disasters -- to achieve control by imposing economic shock therapy. Sometimes, when the first two shocks don’t succeed in wiping out resistance, a third shock is employed: the electrode in the prison cell or the Taser gun on the streets.

READ the book - http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/the-book

[ixion]

31. That's a component to it

to be sure.

[quaker bill]

11. Will virtually anything cause trauma to some?

surely the answer is yes. There are 300 million of us, some will be traumatized by anything you could name.

[grahamhgreen]

13. Then the question is how many will be damaged as we try to protect them?

[quaker bill]

42. That is always is the question

Regardless of the security measure or rule adopted, anywhere at almost any time.

But in all honesty, if a child has been sheltered to the extent that a security scan or pat down would become an irreparable trauma, I think there is a larger problem. This would not have been an event worthy of more than momentary attention for my kids, if that. They would have been on to the next thing in 30 to 60 seconds.

[uppityperson]

39. exactly. eom

[uppityperson]

40. dupe

[bemildred]

45. Well, I know this thread has traumatized me deeply. I may never get over it. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

14. maybe some people shouldn't fly

there are other modes of transportation

[grahamhgreen]

16. This is aHobsons choice. False argument until there is a equally fast mode of transport here.

[jberryhill]

20. I've seen people traumatized by flying

Agoraphobics can't even go to the airport, and claustrophobics can't sit in the cabin.

I was on a flight once in which a passenger went into full on panic attack and started screaming as soon as the plane pulled away from the gate. We had to go back, so she could be taken off. She may have been trying to confront her problem, but just couldn't handle it.

Yes, 2 million people doing ANYTHING every day is going to result in a number of instances of psychological trauma.

[grahamhgreen]

34. Should we traumatize some children some of us (not me) can feel safer?

[jberryhill]

38. Only the circumcised male ones - it's all downhill from there

But have a look at these kids:

Chicago Tribune writers Denise Joyce and Nancy Watkins, who asked readers to contribute photos for articles in 2003 and 2006, turned the seasonal screams into a book, "Scared of Santa: Scenes of Terror in Toyland," which captures 250 of these priceless holiday horrors through the years.

Watch this costumed pervert keep his leg in a boy's crotch while reaching out to grope another horrified victim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4VFTkcfDb4

[krabigirl]

22. I agree..the people so fearful that they will allow the govt to scan them nude shouldn't fly!

[ixion]

29. The whole system causes trauma

As far as I'm concerned.

[grahamhgreen]

37. Agreed, it may well be intended too

The Shock Doctrine

In THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, Naomi Klein explodes the myth that the global free market triumphed democratically. Exposing the thinking, the money trail and the puppet strings behind the world-changing crises and wars of the last four decades, The Shock Doctrine is the gripping story of how America’s “free market” policies have come to dominate the world-- through the exploitation of disaster-shocked people and countries.

At the most chaotic juncture in Iraq’s civil war, a new law is unveiled that would allow Shell and BP to claim the country’s vast oil reserves…. Immediately following September 11, the Bush Administration quietly out-sources the running of the “War on Terror” to Halliburton and Blackwater…. After a tsunami wipes out the coasts of Southeast Asia, the pristine beaches are auctioned off to tourist resorts.... New Orleans’s residents, scattered from Hurricane Katrina, discover that their public housing, hospitals and schools will never be reopened…. These events are examples of “the shock doctrine”: using the public’s disorientation following massive collective shocks – wars, terrorist attacks, or natural disasters -- to achieve control by imposing economic shock therapy. Sometimes, when the first two shocks don’t succeed in wiping out resistance, a third shock is employed: the electrode in the prison cell or the Taser gun on the streets.

[BrightKnight]

41. no - n/t