We Want Better Qualified Teachers

[bobburgster]

But, don't reward them for furthering their education with a Masters Degree.

Maybe I'm just plain ignorant, but this makes no sense.



Economists want to stop teachers' degree bonuses

http://hosted2.ap.org/COGRA/APUSnews/Article_2010-11-20-US-Teacher-Master%27s-Degrees/id-f304c094fc2945bbabdc3f33ff844333

[cornermouse]

1. They used to call it brainwashing.

Now they call it PR.

[YvonneCa]

59. It's neither. It's all about money. States and districts are...

...broke. They can't afford to pay salaries and defined benefit retirement and health care as they have in the past. So they are CUTTING whatever they can get away with cutting.

If they can change the pay scale away from time served/education units...they can stop paying the highest paid teachers.

If they can make working conditions impossible with excessive duties, paperwork, harassment...and get experienced people to become fed-up and leave...they don't have to pay for them and can hire in newer, less experienced teachers with no benefits.


The 'we want better qualified teachers' and 'teachers are the problem' mantra is a distraction from what is really wrong... $$$$

[cornermouse]

64. We're talking about two different things, but

don't let that stop you from trying to say otherwise.
hint: irony.

[Hannah Bell]

2. only economists who work for right-wing think tanks.

[ProfessorGAC]

9. Thanks, Hannah

It's not true that "economists" want this. Just the radical right and radical liberterian type. At Heritage, and Cato, and Heartland, and Club for Growth, etc. Kind of a familiar philsophical thread there, huh?
GAC

[johnaries]

38. The University of Washington is a RW think tank?

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

46. "the Center on Reinventing Education" isn't "the university of washington" &

has nothing to do with the uw's economics program.

it's a little ed deform think tank funded by billionaire ed deformers.

and as ed deform is a right-wing program, the "center" is right-wing too, & its "economists" are paid shills for the right-wing program.

[FarCenter]

3. Maybe a bachelors degree in a subject and then a masters in education?

For example, a science teacher should have a BS in a subject such as physics, chemistry, biology, etc., and then a MS in education?

[no_hypocrisy]

4. + 1. I have a BA for a liberal arts curriculum and an MA in education.

The former gave me three foreign languages, history in western civilization, art history, music history, theater history, chemistry, deductive logic, photography, literature, creative writing, as well as both a thesis and a music recital. I had the ability to learn the subject matter with my bachelors and the skill to teach with my masters. Unless you plan to be six years invested in undergraduate work, it's near impossible to combine these programs.

[MadHound]

53. You obviously don't know about teacher's degree programs, here let me help you.

Teaching is one of the most hour intensive college degrees out there. Say you want to teach grades K-6 you get a degree in elementary education, which includes hours on teaching methodology, pedagogy and content. Since you are expected to teach every subject, you have to take methodology and theoretical classes in each subject.

When you teach middle school on up, you are expected to specialize in a subject. As part of your coursework you essentially get a degree in secondary education and a degree in your specialty. The only thing that is generally missing from getting a degree in your specialty is the capstone project, and since that generally requires only a couple of classes, most teaching students go ahead and get a degree in both. For instance, I teach Social Studies, including history. I got a degree in middle school education, and all the courses needed for a history degree, minus the four hours to write my senior thesis. Since I had the time in my senior year, I went ahead and took those four hours, wrote my senior thesis, and now have a degree in middle school education and a degree in history.

When I go for my masters it will probably be in history, though I'll probably do some graduate classes in education, we'll see.

[Orlandodem]

5. The War on Teachers declared by Obama/Duncan continues. Notice that Duncan came out

against paying teachers for their level of education. How stupid is that.

I will be voting Socialist or Green in 2012 in the presidential election. I can't vote for Obama as long as Duncan is there. Obama is losing the teacher vote left and right. I hope my fellow Dems can convince Obama to change course on RTTT/Duncan. That's the only chance Obama has of getting my vote back.

[AngryAmish]

6. Does post-Master work make better teachers?

If not, why pay for it? Follow the money. Education schools make money but if it does not mean our little ones get a better education then it is a waste.

Worse than that, it is an enormous time sink. It takes a lot of time to write a dissertation (or a lot of money to have someone else write one for you). Each dissertation is supposed to be an unique piece of research that has some insight on solving a problem. Instead, nobody reads these things. Complete waste of time. Time that they would be better off using to teach their kids, masturbating or getting drunk.

[rucky]

7. Professional training is important in every other profession.

Why not teaching?

[Telly Savalas]

10. The argument here is that this form of professional training is not effective.

"Why are we structuring incentives around master's degrees when they don't impact student results" is a pretty legitimate question.

The two things I'd be skeptical about though are:

1. The validity of these studies which try to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of masters degrees. There's a lot of really bad social science research out there, and I wouldn't trust the conclusions of such a study unless I'm able to review the study myself.

2. Let's assume the studies are right. Then why is the discussion centered around getting rid of the higher pay when the more pertinent topic would be what can be done to improve the professional training? Teaching is a highly skilled profession. If professional training is lacking, then fix it -- don't just cut pay for people who've had it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Name one other profession where those with more degrees are not paid more

I can't. Not only are workers paid more for more education, in the business world, many companies pay for the degree. My sister who is in human resources has two masters degrees, both paid for by her employers. Her first employer paid for her to go to school, then she was laid off and given a year's salary in severance. She found a new job and that company decided she needed a masters in a different field so they paid for that degree. She now earns twice what she did as a college graduate 20 years ago.

Please name one school district or state in the country that pays for masters degrees and offers a year's pay in severance. When my district laid off employees this summer, they canceled their health insurance going back a month before the layoff. And severance pay? - ROFLMAO.

[FarCenter]

16. In Biology, PhDs make less than MS Biology degree holders

There is a glut of PhDs in Biology. A lot of them work as slave labor post-Docs indefinitely. MS holders go into industry and make more.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. That's two different industries

I'm looking for ONE where more education does not earn more salary.

[FarCenter]

19. OK, Engineering R&D

PhDs started a little higher than MS + 4 years with the company. But if they didn't perform, we took their raises away and gave them to the MS and BS degree holders. Engineers with 10 years since the BS were paid based on performance, not their degree. I'd bet that companies hiring Comp Sci graduates today have essentially the same policy. Your degree gets you onto a particular starting rung, but it doesn't mean that you stay there in competition with other employees --- that depends on performance.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Is there even a job market for those grads?

I know several with that degree who are unemployed.

But thanks for the example.

[FarCenter]

32. Top 10 College Degrees by Highest Starting Salary - Education is not one of them...

1. Petroleum Engineering $86,220

2. Chemical Engineering $65,142

3. Mining & Mineral Engineering $64,552

4. Computer Science $61,205

5. Computer Engineering $60,879

6. Electrical/Electronics & Communications Engineering $59,074

7. Mechanical Engineering $58,392

8. Industrial/Manufacturing Engineering $57,734

9. Aerospace/Aeronautical/ Astronautical Engineering $57,231

10. Information Sciences & Systems $54,038

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. That doesn't answer my question

But thanks for the info.

[FarCenter]

41. 2,412,730 in Architecture and Engineering employed as of May 2009

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes170000.htm

In this recession, the unemployment numbers for engineers are about average.

[AngryAmish]

28. Law

Lawyer pay is not at all correlated to getting a LLM. LLM holders tend to be academics (well paid but below what their Ivy League peers make generally) and the lifetime student types who are useless in a courtroom.

[Recursion]

27. Most "hard" sciences

I make more with an MS in EE than I would with a PhD.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I have a friend with a PhD in biology

He teaches at a med school. He says he can make more money in private industry but he'd be giving up his job security and ability to research what he wants to research.

[hack89]

56. The difference is that it is not proven that advance degrees in education

result in better educated students. Business are willing to pay for advance degrees because they know those advance skills make business sense.

I think the issue is simple - only pay for advance degrees in primary subjects. Math, science, English degrees are worthwhile - the more a math teacher know the better. Do not pay for advance degrees in Education - they don't seem to be worth anything.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. You don't write a dissertation for a masters degree

You lost me there. But like a fool, I read on to the masturbation suggestion. Congratulations. You moved from no credibility to asshole in just a few sentences.

[FarCenter]

30. Some students do complete a thesis for the Masters degree

http://www.ece.umn.edu/graduate/ECEMSEEPLANAREQUIREMENTCHART.html is the University of Minnesota requirements for the MSEE with a thesis (worth 10 credits, plus 20 credits of coursework, for a total of 30 credits).

http://www.ece.umn.edu/graduate/ECEMSEEPLANCCREDITREQCHART.html is the University of Minnesota requirements for the MSEE without a thesis (30 credits of coursework).

PhD thesis are generally far too verbose to be published in any referreed journal. They are archived and are retrievable. Sometimes the author will write a paper based on some part of the thesis which is accepted by a journal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. A masters requires a thesis and a PhD requites a dissertation

And there is a world of difference (plus hundreds of pages) between the two.

[FarCenter]

40. The PhD requires a thesis worth 24 credits

http://www.ece.umn.edu/graduate/ECEPHDREQUIREMENTCHART.html

PhD Thesis Requirements
http://www.ece.umn.edu/graduate/ECEPHDTHESISREQUIREMENTS.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Not for a PhD in education

That requires a dissertation.

[FarCenter]

44. The PhD in Social Sciences Education requires a 24 credit thesis

http://www.cehd.umn.edu/ci/Programs/SocStud/PhD.html

You are making a distinction between "dissertation" and "thesis" that does not exist.

[LanternWaste]

18. I think you're confusing "I don't read dissertations"

I think you're confusing "I don't read dissertations" with "nobody reads these things..."

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Dissertations - written by PhD candidates, not for masters degrees -

are often published. That would negate the whole 'no one reads these' argument.

[soleiri]

51. Which useless course should I take in my MA program?

Augmentative Communication and Adaptive Technology in Special Education or Teaching Functional Communication?
Or does it matter? Because obviously neither one of these masters level courses will help me teach...

and most people take the comps.

[AngryAmish]

54. Excellent use of jargon

It is always a sign of intelligence when one uses jargon. Certainly helps your case.

[soleiri]

55. I'm not using jargon, those are course titles

Augmentative Communication and Adaptive Technology in Special Education, is pretty self explanatory.

Teaching Functional Communication is, I believe (I haven't taken the useless course yet), about teaching kids with behavior issues more appropriate and effective communicative behaviors or skills. If anyone already has a worthless MA in Special Education, please feel free to correct me.

Either way, I can't imagine either one of these classes benefiting anyone in my class, nope. I'm sure no one will need adaptive technology or have behavior problems which might benefit from my increased knowledge.

[Sancho]

8. Neutral blind studies across all professions is clear...

more training, knowledge, and education in any professional field improves the performance. That includes teachers. The cross-sectional and badly done "value-added" reports (not really research) that politicians are using to say that added training doesn't help is garbage. Teachers can learn more through degrees, staff-development, professional meetings, and many other ways - but the evidence has been demonstrated for a long time that more knowledgeable and experienced teachers do a better job (in general), stay in the profession longer, and are more flexible when the curriculum and type of children change. Everyone knows a teacher that they like or hate, but if you look across lots of teachers there is little question.

Would you go to a doctor who didn't have a medical degree and had not demonstrated knowledge of medicine? Would you prefer a specialist with extra training if you wanted someone to operate on you? Would you fly with a pilot who had not learned how to navigate or demonstrated they could land the plane? Wouldn't you prefer a pilot with lots of extra training and experience? If you had a special needs child, or wanted your child to do well at math, or thought that music was something good for kids to learn; then you would want teachers to know about special education, have a major in math, or have experience and a degree in music. Very few people can learn all there is know without continuing their training.

It doesn't make sense to dumb down teachers. BTW, my wife is in her 33 year of teaching, and has five degrees (two are in education; three are content degrees). She is paid about the same as a beginning graduate with an undergraduate degree from the local state college IF she was in a business or an applied field. She only teaches because she wants to and we can afford it. Whenever she steps out of teaching, she makes a lot more. The parents and district love her and her school is an "A" school with high test scores, but a low economic scale. Most teachers at her school are experienced and have graduate degrees. If you replace those teachers with less educated and less experienced teachers (cheaper); then the kids would learn less, discipline would be worse, and the school grade would go down. Pretty simple.

[old mark]

11. ...but we want to be able to treat them like shit and not pay them much...

and we want them to be RW/fundamentalist propagandists...


mark

[aikoaiko]

12. The potential problem is the raise continency

A teacher can achieve a master's degree, get a raise, and not change a thing about his or her teaching.

Furthermore, some teachers get administrative degrees which arguably have little relevance to teaching. No teacher should get a raise for an admin degree because they get a raise when promoted to the admin ranks.

One would think that a master's degree in content or methods should increase teacher performance and student learning, but that's not the contingency in place. In business, training and development works because if the additional training gets applied well, there are usually pay structures in place for improved performance. Not so much in primary and secondary education. Even when there is merit pay, the difference in pay between the best and worst teachers is often small.

It seems to me that school systems need to at least close the loop when giving raises for master's degrees by rewarding significant changes in teaching lessons or improved student learning outcomes.

[bobburgster]

20. Most teachers that get admin. degrees......

are planning to go into administration. Once you become an administrator you are not paid via negotiated teacher's salary scale anymore.

[aikoaiko]

26. Thats nice if they "plan" on going into admin, but the point of paying for and giving raises to...

...to teachers who get master's degrees is to make for better teaching and student learning. It teachers want to stop teaching and go into admin, that's fine, but I don't see the point in giving teachers raises for degrees that have no content or methods courses. Like I said, if they do get chosen to serve as an admin, they get their bump in pay then.

Here's a link that describes the situation in my state.
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/11/12/paying-teachers-by-degrees-georgia-cuts-back/

[bobburgster]

48. See where you're coming from.

Never heard of an advanced degree in educational leadership. Sounds like a an easy track for more money. I don't doubt that their are loopholes that need to be closed, but the original link I read was pretty much across the board. Which is ludicrous.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Administrators don't teach. They run schools and programs.

So they need a different kind of training than a teacher has. They also work much longer hours (ours work 12 hour days) and they work 12 months. So more salary is perfectly justified, IMO.

[aikoaiko]

25. Teachers get administrative degrees and raises, and don't necessarily go into admin.

In my state, up to 31% of TEACHERS get weak, admin master's degrees, and then raises. And I just can't make the case that those degrees are serving students in the classrooms.

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/11/12/paying-teachers-by-degrees-georgia-cuts-back/

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Actually they want cheaper teachers who are easier to control

It's the Stepford Wife plan.

[JVS]

31. Hence TfA

[YvonneCa]

60. Stepford Teacher Program...I like that name. It...

...fits perfectly. :)

[bobburgster]

24. I agree with the following comment posted by Sancho.

"..Neutral blind studies across all professions is clear...

more training, knowledge, and education in any professional field improves the performance. That includes teachers. The cross-sectional and badly done "value-added" reports (not really research) that politicians are using to say that added training doesn't help is garbage. Teachers can learn more through degrees, staff-development, professional meetings, and many other ways - but the evidence has been demonstrated for a long time that more knowledgeable and experienced teachers do a better job..."

The one point I would add, that is barely mentioned, is the personality profile of a successful teacher. That in my opinion, is the most important ingredient.

[surrealAmerican]

29. We could easily attract better qualified people to teach.

You just need to treat them like valued professionals, and pay them more.

[JVS]

34. That will never happen.

[Odin2005]

36. The PTB don't want REAL teachers, they want well-trained nannies.

God forbid kids are taught to think for themselves rather than regurgitate facts.

[kcass1954]

39. Is there a problem with teachers in your school district not being qualified?

I think that if we're honest with ourselves - truly honest - we have no choice but to admit that there isn't a huge problem with teachers being "unqualified."

Think back to when you or your kids were in school. Were the teachers really horrible? My youngest just started high school, and looking at his education from kindergarten through middle school, I can honestly say that his teachers have been qualified, and dedicated as much as they could be within the limitations of the requirement that they teach the "FCAT curriculum."

The problem is not the teachers. It's NCLB. It's tying test performance to compensation. It's school administrators not allowing our teachers to teach. It's state amendments trying to increase class size. (Yeah, I'm in Florida.) And it's giving tax money earmarked for public schools to privately-owned charter schools, whose administrators make huge salaries but who can't seem to do any better than the public schools do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. +1

[Starry Messenger]

45. +2

[YvonneCa]

61. You got it! EXACTLY. n/t

[FooshIt]

47. The masters degree does not help teaching ability.

I work part time at learning center for a major university. The people with masters degrees are no better than the people with bachelors degrees.

[bobburgster]

49. In some cases.....

that is without a doubt true. Your statement is a generalization, to say the least.

[Yupster]

50. Let's add an anecdote to his generalization

I got a master's in Curriculum and Instruction after teaching 5-6 years.

It had no no relevance at all to my teaching ability. Maybe it harmed my teaching as it gave me something to do at night when I should have been resting or grading papers.

The classes were all taught at night. My fellow students were also public school teachers. We were there to get the stipend that came with an MA. The instructors were very well aware of this. They assigned little work, taught little, and we normally left class about halfway through the assigned timeslot. It was a place to chat for a while.

My master's was a rip-off of the taxpayers that paid my stipend the last five years of my teaching career.

My wife also got a master's in Curriculum and Instruction disagrees and says she actually learned stuff. Her degree was at a different college.

[bobburgster]

57. As in everything else.....

there is good, bad, and ugly. Do they probably need some type of regulations and oversight...without a doubt. My local state college was no cake walk program. You had to work pretty damn hard for your Masters.

[JCMach1]

52. Teachers often go for Masters Degrees for re-licensing purposes

...i.e the dreaded in-service points. Many states require those points after the initial license. So, often the Masters is just an afterthought from sometimes inferior institutions.

A better study would have controlled for Masters in a Subject Area vs. Education Masters... Additionally, they could have looked at those teachers who did not complete the Masters for re-licensing purposes. They could also have controlled for type/quality of institution where the Masters were taken.

Color me skeptical of anything that comes from Arne Duncan's mouth.

[Dinger]

62. Same Here JCMach1

I can't wait to see who the NEA & AFT support in 2012. I predict at least one, if not both unions, will not endorse Obama, because of duncan. Does ANYONE want our votes? If so, remember that we're not gonna be suckered again. Take that to the bank.

[joeybee12]

58. Silly me! I thought educators themselves should be educated...

guess not, just mindless automatons.

[Dinger]

63. You're Right...

"Maybe I'm just plain ignorant,"

[hayu_lol]

65. During his 13 years of public school...

my son experienced a lot of different teachers. Only one teacher was really bad. Most were competent and those with multiple degrees taught most of the advanced classes in all subjects. They were capable of enriching the material from the texts and other educational aids.

You could probably take a bright high school grad and in a year, teach them to teach to the test.

Some of us were lucky in the teachers we drew, some obviously were not.

Arnie Duncan and some of the other appointments made by our president need to be terminated for cause and soon. There is a growing group 'out there' who will not vote for Obama because of Duncan and the damage he is doing to an entire generation of students.

As for money, past time for teacher salaries to rise to the professional level or start hiring high school grads for the jobs.