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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:13 PM
Original message
3,341.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." -- Matthew 5:9


This week we will pass a milestone in Afghanistan, perhaps significant, perhaps not, as with all milestones.

It will be on Tuesday (bad math from the AP notwithstanding) we will have had soldiers in that country precisely as long as the Soviets did:

3,341 days.

An anniversary invites reflection, and a grim one such as this is no different. By the numbers, of course, the chasm that separates the two conflicts is vast by every other measure. This speaks to the weakness of numbers. To wit:

We will likely top 1,500 U.S. military fatalities in AfPak by the end of the year. That's one soldier killed every 2.2 days since we began. Soviet fatality rates were appreciably higher, some 14,000 KIA by the end of their war -- 4.2 soldiers killed every day. We are not, of course, finished yet.

The monetary cost of the war in Afghanistan has reached almost $7 billion per month for us -- about what the Soviets spent in a year fighting mujahideen.**

The take-away the numbers offer: we're spending money faster, and dying slower, than the Soviets did.

But numbers carry only so far; anecdote picks up the slack. It is nearly impossible now, after so long, to find people in this country whose lives have not been adversely affected by this war. Some Christmases ago, I learned the excruciating details surrounding the death of an old friend. The peculiar physics of love and hate can make one's blood boil and frost from visiting the same horror; but I, like most of us, now sit safely surrounded by asphalt, two oceans, and 5,000 ICBMs. Quite safe in my righteousness.

Not so in P2K (Paktia, Paktika, Khost), Helmand, Faryab, Farah, Logar. You cannot live normally under fear of sudden death. Anyone who has lived in a war zone can attest, normalcy does not return until years after the rational reasons for that fear go away.

It is the height of conceit, and in full flight from the facts, that those of us who have lost friends and family feel in any way unique in this regard, any more. Particularly as Americans. Any desire for justice in the name of our own dead pales, shatteringly, in comparison to what is felt on the ground in this conflict.

So 3,341 days later, despite myself, I have to measure Afghanistan by that metric. The first lesson of conflict resolution is, if you have been affected by the conflict, to ignore your heart -- because in its darkest places, it wants nothing less than the death of everyone who killed yours. Recognizing (and acting upon the realization) that violence begets violence is a luxury afforded chiefly to those unaffected by violence -- and cliché thought it is, to find the real heroes of civilization it is necessary only to look for those few who successfully transcend the cycle.

I do not know who those heroes will be with respect to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I have no capacity even to imagine them. I know it will not be people like me, who cheer quietly at every UAV strike, grimly satisfied with the result, and rationalize civilian death with precisely the same mental gymnastics that allowed my friend to be brutalized and killed by once-devout men.

Precisely the same. Our differences are utterly obscured by our similarities. It is people like me who fire rifles into the air to celebrate blown-up NATO outposts. It is people like me who celebrate the death of the enemy as if it were a way forward.

It is not.

Murderous hearts on all sides must begin to make overtures. 3,341 days on, it is even clear to people like me that it will not be whether we stay or go, the acts of bombs or soldiers or sanctions that will ultimately bring peace to this scarred part of the world. It will be brought only by the appearance of conflict participants who can actually turn the other cheek -- an increasingly rare breed in a region in its Nth iteration of violence and desperation.

Blessed are the peacemakers. In memory of my innocence, I eagerly, hopefully await them, ignoring the darkest places of my heart that doubt they even exist.




**It's wrong to talk about money and the Soviet war without mentioning us; some estimates (cough) put US spending in Afghanistan at some $60 million per month near the end there. Funding the mujahideen. We all know how well that worked out. Credit where due to Reagan for winning short-term strategies that fucked everything up in the long term. You want a metaphor for the 1980s, it's this.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shout it from the rooftops.
The people who control this madness are not listening.

Recommended, very highly.

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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree with you 100%,Peggy...no one is listening. K&R'd
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Oh, they're listening
It's just that they're not listening to anyone with skin in their little game. All they're risking is other people's money and some paltry lives of people they don't care about. What they're listening to is the ka-ching of the cash register as more money goes from the Treasury into their overstuffed pockets.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Exactly right.
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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Huge K and R. Essential reading...and remembering. n/t
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Change? what change?
Edited on Sat Nov-27-10 08:24 PM by sarcasmo
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. rec
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. Catching up with Iraq.
But its given so little news coverage nobody notices except the families.
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The abyss Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. Amazing post. Thanks "Robb"

I'm still trying to figure this out...

Not too long ago (before you became a DU moderator) you supported these wars/invasions --hyped the "properness" of the US occupation.

What happen'? Jesus whack you in the noggin?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. I really didn't want to kick this thread, but your post demands an answer.
First, I never supported the Iraq war. If you've got some proof otherwise, I'd suggest bringing it out quickly.

Second, it's clear you were too focused on scoring points, and thus missed the point of my post. Staring you right in the face.

I still support this war. Hell, I want to escalate it. I want to expand deeper into Pakistan, I want more missile strikes. I want Taliban to die in unending numbers. I'm not at all certain there's even a number of deaths that would satisfy me they've "paid." I don't want reconciliation, I want scorched earth and screaming. Salt the fields for a thousand years.

The point is it can't be about what people like me want any more. And it won't end until people like me are out of the policymaking, on either side.

...Get it, "abyss"?
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The abyss Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thank you for the reply!

No - I don't understand hating the Taliban or anyone/anything to to that extreme. I certainly don't support expanding a war into Pakistan; when, from my perspective, this war was always about selling lies, fairy stories and chasing old CIA boogie-men like Osama bin Laden. Just as all wars are about lies.

However, I acknowledge the point of your post and thank you again for stating it so clearly.

I am not out "scoring" points. I certainly don't post enough to be important enough to score anything.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Robb, your feelings on both Iraq and Afghanistan are about the same as mine
I never supported Iraq and protested against it since before it began.

However, I was in favor of Afghanistan at the beginning and while I am not in favor of continuing there, I understand why Obama is doing what he is doing. I just think it is futile.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. some bloodlust you have there. nt
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Recommend..wholeheartedly.
Edited on Sat Nov-27-10 08:50 PM by BrklynLiberal
Will this Afghan War destroy us the way it destroyed the USSR???

$7 Billion a month of US Taxpayers money...???????!!!!!!!!!!
while making heartbreaking and inhumane budget cuts here at home????????
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. BrklynLiberal: "Will this Afghan War destroy us the way it destroyed the USSR??? "
The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are destroying our spirits, our trust and the economy. Our 'enemies' China (to whom the plutocracy transferred so much manufacturing) and Russia have dropped using the dollar for trade between themselves. Other countries will follow.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. So, in effect, we are already screwn..and the AfghanWar is merely the icing.
and if I recall correctly, one of the main reasons that Saddam Hussein was attacked was because of his threat to start trading oil in Euros, rather than dollars.

Why bother to use bullets and bombs, when this country can be destroyed from within by using economic means..?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. I agree with everything except the dollar drop assertion
If anything, the Euro is in more trouble than the dollar right now.
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MsPithy Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. Afghanistan,
where empires go to die! (I didn't make this up, it's like a proverb.)
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. Beautiful post.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. "we're spending money faster, and dying slower, than the Soviets did."
That's the strategy to keep opposition low. It means that the impacts of war aren't felt as much in America. There aren't as many people who have a family or friend who died in the war. It's another way that we're insulated from the impact of the war.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. And,
it's another way to keep us deluded, so that more of us 'support' the war, even if our support is complicit--as in, we are silent in the face of this disgusting travesty.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. We have more money to burn.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's way past time to support our troops by bringing them home. nt
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ten years ago, a case for this war could have been made. Two years ago, saying we need ......
.... to fight this war was a huge mistake and case of political grandstanding.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Ten years ago, the case against this war was that what has happened would happen.
That's why I asked my students to consider at the time: In response to the Taliban and 9/11, "What if we just do nothing?"
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. 10 years ago there was a case to be made to invade Saudi Arabia
not Afghanistan.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. k & r
:hi:
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. k
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. KandR
Blessed are the peacemakers


peace~
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
Beautifully said Robb.

:kick:
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de novo Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
20. We're just getting started. 2014 is still a long time from now.
And, even that brings no guarantee.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. On top of all that the majority of Afghan people don't even know
why we invaded their country.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/think-tank-afghans-dont-know-911/

What they do know is that invaders have come, fought, and lost many times before. They will likely continue to come as well.

This war will not be "won". Regardless of what politicians choose to throw at it.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. How many times must good men die?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsXpGV5tExY




"Fall Of The Peacemakers"


A King without a sword

A land without a King

The truth without a voice

One song left to sing

One song to sing


A wise man told me there's something you should know

"The way you judge a man is you look into his soul

And you'll soon see everything".


A voice from the past cried "Give Peace A Chance"

He paid our price now he's free at last

And "Imagine" we called him a dreamer.

How many times must good men die?

How many tears will the children cry?

Till we suffer no more sadness

Stop the madness,

Oh stop the madness.


If ashes are ashes and dust is dust

And our journey's end and then we turn we must

To the sands of the shore

White doves then fly

Peace to all

Tell me why the peacemakers fall

Must we bury anymore


A hush in the crowd as the horse rode by

Black lace veil hid the tears from her eyes

And we all wept in silence

How many times must good men die?

How many times will the children cry?

Till we suffer no more sadness

Oh stop the madness

Oh stop all the madness.




Molly Hatchet's tribute to "The Peace Makers"; Martin Luther King,John Lennon and John F. Kennedy



k&r

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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. I've been anti-war and pro-peace for many, many years
Every single war is a repetition of every other war. Watch WARTORN on HBO with James Gandolfini. It talks of PTSD going back to the Civil War. Every single war scars the generation that fights it, and every American generation has fought a war. 99% of them in other countries and only to further American Imperialism.

If going to war were truly a natural human activity there would be no such thing as PTSD. Soldiers would come back in great shape.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
26. Some more numbers
U.S. Military Deaths (Afghanistan) 1,286
U.S. Military Wounded (Afghanistan) 7,266
U.S. Military Deaths (Iraq) 4,427
U.S. Military Wounded (Iraq) 32,900
Excess Iraqi Deaths 655,000

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. And Afghani/Pakistani civilian deaths -- not counted (n/t)
Edited on Sun Nov-28-10 03:20 PM by ProudDad
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. Matthew who?
Reputable link?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. "Blessed are the cheesemakers."
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. "Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally...
It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products"
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
33. crap, we need to get out.
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IcyPeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. democracy?
I haven't seen the most recent polls but I remember hearing that the majority wanted to get out of these wars. Isn't that kind of the definition of democracy - that if the majority votes for or against something that should be the rule?

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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. Excellent post Robb
We must remember our soldiers
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
38. Bring them home
~PEACE~
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. Just numbers on the newest wall, that's all.
Just poor people's kids.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
40. The Beatitudes were redacted from the OFA Bible
The entire text of the Bible now reads "God created the world. Gays are not real humans. Jesus is coming really soon." That's it. The rest is silence.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. You don't mean
"Organizing for America" by OFA do you?

I've given up hope, politically, in this president..but I really don't see him as a RW Fundie.:eyes:
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
41. Kick
Too late to R, but a hearty kick. :hug:
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
46. Now, the record is ours!!!!!!! USA! USA!! USA!! What about casualties? Are we under a
Edited on Thu Dec-02-10 04:24 PM by T Wolf
one-a-day ratio yet?

That would be a real achievement.
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