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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-10 11:40 PM
Original message
Question about parliament vs congress
This is mostly directed to non US Duers.

What are the main differences between a parliament and a congress. I ask because I see things I like and things I do not like about both systems.

I like the fact that parliaments seems to suffer less gridlock, and allow for more parties.

I dislike the fact that the in parliaments, the party picks the Prime Minister as opposed to primaries. My concern is that an outsider cannot be elected (like either of the Clintons, or Obama)

Feedback desired.
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rve300 Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. The biggest thing...
I have noticed since I moved to Oz about 4 years ago. During the elections all the MP's just attack the opposing parties leader. All the Liberal candidates tell us about how bad Julia Gillard is, all the Labor candidates attack Tony Abbott. The public never learns anything about the individual MP's unless they are in the leadership. If you want Julia Gillard to be the Prime Minister then you have to vote for the Labor canidate even if you don't like him or her.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. A Parliamentary government is organised differently.
First there isn't so much separation of powers on the American model; the legislative body is ALSO the executive to a large extent (in that the prime minister in a parliamentary government is the leader of the majority party or, more frequently, the largest party in the dominant coalition), and the other members of the cabinet are going to ordinarily be sitting members of parliament (in the UK in some instances there have been cabinet ministers who had seats in the House of Lords rather than the House of Commons, but this isn't common these days).

The reason parliaments suffer less gridlock is because parties which govern in majority have more effective party discipline than anything known in American politics. In the UK, there are Parliamentary whips whose job is to ensure that Members vote with their party; in UK parliamentary parlance 'the whip' is the circular with the schedule of the week's votes sent to Members by the party whips, and there are differing categories; a single-line whip, which indicates the party's position, and when voting will take place (non-binding for attendance or voting); a two-line whip, which is an instruction to attend and vote (but breaching the party line on voting bears no sanctions); and a three-line whip, which means 'you'll be there, and you'll vote how we tell you, or come tomorrow you won't be a member of the Parliamentary party any more and good luck getting re-elected'. Three-line whips are usually only issued for votes of confidence and supply (supply being funding; if a budget bill is defeated, this is a loss of supply and is interpreted as a loss of confidence). If a government receives a vote of no confidence or a supply bill fails then Parliament is dissolved and a new election is held.

Note that the foregoing all applies to the Westminster system (I'm in the UK).
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. so, if I am reading this right
The good news : The Blue Dogs democrats would be knocked into line
The Bad news: Party polticis are conservative enough where the Blue Dogs would win and never be challenged
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The Power Of The Party
In other countries the Blue Dogs would probably be their own Party, but so would the Teabaggers and the small parties can and do end up being the power brokers in getting things done. This would especially be the case if there wasn't a majority party. For example, Israel has dozens of small, special interest parties that alone can't win power but do so when one of the larger parties doesn't have enough seats to form a government...then it's let's make a deal time.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Not necessarily
Substantial party shakeups tend to happen once every ten or twenty years under a lot of parliamentary systems, especially if a party hasn't kept up with popular sentiment (as in your bad news scenario), if someone gets creamed in an election bad enough to start a backlash, or if a party in power gets a bit too comfortable with their position after a few elections and screws up in the wrong place.

They're no more prone to stasis in the long term than American political parties have to be; both of yours have changed substantially and several times over the last couple of generations too, after all.
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DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Great response so far
Here's a Question though, would a Barack Obama or Hillary have been able to make it as a candidate in parliament? Or, do you think they would have picked more of an insider (like let's say, Al Gore or Ted Kennedy?)
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hard to make direct comparisons with America..
but worth noting that the current Labour party leader, Ed Miliband, was NOT someone who a few months earlier would have been thought to be 'in with a chance'. (He ended up narrowly defeating someone who was much more of an insider. To complicate matters even further, the insider whom he narrowly defeated also happens to be his elder brother!)

None of the three main party leaders at the moment had previously served for a very long time in parliament. Cameron since 2001; Clegg and Ed Miliband only since 2005.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'd say they would
A Canadian member of Parliament is roughly the same "rank" as a House representative in the US, as opposed to the senatorial rank Obama entered federal politics from - there's plenty of room at that level for both "insiders" and more oddball candidates.

I can't give much of a more specific answer than that - that sort of thing depends hugely on circumstances - but the foot-in-the-door threshold is pretty basic.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. There can be quite a few
A big starting one is probably that the systems start out of a different set of assumptions: the US was founded as a system which viewed government as, at best, a necessary evil, so the checks, gridlock generation scenarios, and so on are actually designed to make things move slowly if they move at all. I've lived under a Westminster parliament where the core assumption is more "government's alright if you don't screw it up." The higher level of implied trust in the system as a whole leads to more powerful governments, at least constitutionally speaking, with voting a government out on a confidence motion as the main check on that power.

Saying the party picks the PM is a bit of an oversimplification; while they do do that, in practice the person they're picking is almost always someone who's at least holding office in his riding in the first place. You can see weird things happen if a politician gets into office at that level and something odd happens within the party. A lot of the time there's a basic hooray-for-the-establishment thing going on where relatively safe, center-of-the-party-line people wind up on top, but political parties in parliamentary systems often tend to shuffle people around fairly radically at times as well, especially if someone got demolished in an election, or if the party in government has been around long enough to prove that opposition tactics aren't working.

Senior officials are almost always wearing multiple hats. In most parliamentary systems the Prime Minister and members of the cabinet are also members of Parliament, representing their particular riding in addition to the federal role. Cabinet roles are generally purely by appointment; the legislature doesn't confirm nominees. Obviously, in practice their federal 'hat' counts for more, though it varies by individual MP/cabinet minister where they put the balance. Cabinet positions can be pretty fluid at times; shuffling them around is fairly common in Canadian politics, for instance, and you occasionally see weird things like "Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport" pop up. If it's a small legislature, someone managing multiple departments can happen, usually with a major office (State, Finance, Defense) and one or two secondary ones (Canada often has several "Ministers of State" with very specific roles such as women's rights, labour, regional affairs for a specific area, etc). In coalition situations, sometimes somebody can be a "minister without portfolio" - they don't hold a particular position, but they have the rank of cabinet minister and can vote at that level on government policy. This hasn't happened in the Canadian experience for awhile, though, and I'm not sure how common it is in other countries.

The upper house - the Senate equivalent - in parliamentary systems is all over the place, running the full gamut from regularly-elected and fairly influential bodies to the British House of Lords to the Canadian Senate with its life-term appointments and minimal political power. The Senate here is often seen as a reward for federal service, for instance, and senators often spend as much of their time traveling around the country pushing a particular issue as anything else, though they still serve as a check for legislation at times. My current favorite Canadian politician by a long shot is one of our senators.

Because of his position at the head of his party and at the head of the legislature, the Prime Minister, institutionally speaking, is vastly more powerful than any American president, especially if his party holds a majority position in the government. The main check at that point is the threat of electoral backlash if a party does something too radical or irritating, which can often be pretty impressive; the Progressive-Conservative party in Canada was completely annihilated in the 1990s, to an extent that rendered the Canadian right irrelevant for a decade. At the same time, it's much easier to remove a Prime Minister; a vote of confidence can be held at just about any time on the matter (parliamentary tactics notwithstanding), "party revolts" occur now and then, and so on. Some types of legislation in different countries are seen as confidence measures - for instance, any budget or taxation law in Canada is simultaneously a vote of confidence in the prime minister. If a budget bill fails, it's election time.

The fact that it can be election time on short notice is another big difference! While there's pressure here to move to fixed election dates, there's also complaints about it for fear of turning into an electoral system like the States, where representatives and leaders spend as much time campaigning for reelection as they do governing. Some of that happens here as well - you can generally feel it in the air a month or two before an election call, with parties suddenly being uncharacteristically strident or generous or abruptly firing annoying people or the like - but snap elections can and do happen. A PM can also call other things confidence measures if he wants to either show he's confident in himself or wants to bluff the opposition.

A lot of parliamentary systems include some other minor procedures which aren't really part of the actual powers and institutions, but are pretty common and add to the whole thing. For example, a lot of them have "Question Period" or something similar, where the PM - or the PM and his cabinet, or some other combination - get publicly grilled by the opposing parties on the issues of the day. This is a weekly event in Britain, and a daily one in Canada, has a fairly convoluted set of rules and procedures by tradition, but can often lead to some pretty interesting things, especially if a cabinet member slips up on a question or something.

Parliamentary countries may (Canada) or may not (Britain) have a formal codified constitution. The latter often works out better than you'd expect, with The Way Things Ought To Be determined by a combination of case law, tradition, and concensus. I personally prefer having something graven in stone somewhere, of course, but the system's worked for them for centuries.

Judiciaries are usually pretty far separate from all that madness. In the Canadian experience, the high courts can be surprisingly apolitical despite their appointment procedure (usually by the PM with the cabinet's advice, with minimal screening by the rest of Parliament, though this is starting to change). In our case there's a set of specific requirements which mean a SCC justice can't just fly in out of nowhere; they have to have served on some of the superior courts, have to have been in the Bar above a certain amount of time, etc. There's traditionally a geographic focus too, with regional representation being more of a political football both because regionalism in Canada is always a political football and because Quebec uses a different legal system at the provincial level from the rest of the country. Justices get the boot at 75. Test cases - "We want to pass a bill to do X; would this pass muster constitutionally?" are more common here. Squabbling around Supreme Court cases is often less about the actual case going in and more about the implications of court decisions' wording; we had a spectacular instance of one of those when the supreme court ruled on issues pertaining to Quebec separation in the nineties that still starts the odd barfight.

Obviously a lot of that is Canada-specific, but the general independence of the judiciary from the rest of the sausage factory holds in a lot of places.
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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. Actually, there is nothing about congress that would limit it ...
... to two parties. It's not inherent to the system.


Then again, I doubt that having more parties would solve very many of our problems. They would simply form coalitions for various issues. The end result would not likely differ from what we see now.
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NuclearDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. America's two-party system is more of a product of American politics
And not necessarily a consequence of a nonparliamentary system.

Parliament is a lot more conducive to coalitions in the Legislature, which allows for third parties to survive. Hell, even if you look at it, the American system works similarly--the Dems and Reps are essentially large coalitions that could be split up into separate parties. We just choose to keep it as a two-party system.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think the biggest difference...
is that in most Parliamentary systems there is not the same separation of powers between the political leader of the country and his/her legislative party, as between President and Congress. 300 years ago, the system did work that way in Britain: the King was the political head of state; the Parliament was a separate organization. Now the Monarch has essentially no power; the Prime Minister (i.e. David Cameron, uggghhhhh) is the de facto political head of state; and he is also head of his party in Parliament.

Some parliamentary systems, e.g. France, do have more balance of power between a President and a Prime Minister.

Most parliamentary systems have more than two parties, though I don't think that is an inevitable difference.
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Very_Boring_Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. There are primaries under parliamentary democracies
Edited on Sun Nov-28-10 12:55 PM by Very_Boring_Name
At least in canada there are. It's called a leadership convention, and party members vote to send delegates representing candidates, just like in the U.S
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