Am I the only one who thinks the talk about the Wikileaks release "costing lives" is 99% bullshit?

[backscatter712]

Do you even think the governments of the world care that much if a few low-level operatives get killed?

Personally, I think if any lives are actually in potential danger, intelligence agencies have already gotten their people out of dodge long ago.

The real thing that freaks them out is the exposure of criminal activity in these diplomatic cables.

Not nuclear secrets, not spy rings, criminal activity by our governments.

That's what has them pissing their pants right now, and that's why these sorts of leaks are absolutely necessary to put a check on government abuses.

[backscatter712]

1. DU burped - posting to put this in my My DU page.

Gotta love the database glitches here.

Thank you, you may return to your regularly scheduled flamewars.

[The Doctor.]

64. Hehehe... you're not the only one.

Was talking about this to the kid a few hours ago.

Little damage, much embarrassment.

[Catherina]

2. It was proven to be a lie the last time they tried that sob story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1pTl8KdREk&feature=player_embedded

[Alexander]

3. No. I think it's 100% bullshit.

It's already been determined that the Afghanistan-related Wikileaks release did not put the lives of any operatives in danger.

[backscatter712]

4. That's what I figured.

There may have theoretically been something in there that may put lives in danger, but realistically, I doubt it, and think that the interesting stuff is the criminality that's being exposed. That has our governments wigging out, and as for me... :popcorn:

[WingDinger]

5. They ruin two things. My country right or wrong, and they know things we do not, soooooooooooooooooo

[pleah]

6. No, it is 100% bs.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. It depends. It made a difference for Valerie Plame.

Who knows what we'll uncover. One thing you need to know is that in other countries, graft is a way of life. We have to hide it here because our country is, essentially, hypocritical. But in other countries, some graft is expected. There is just a tipping point that needs to be avoided because it can lead to violence within the country. For example, if the poor are neglected too much, there can be an uprising. In that instance, it could present a problem for the USA if they are supporting someone who has abused that balance within his or her own country.

[Toucano]

8. There's a possibility, I suppose.

But it's not the revelation that would spark violence, rather the actions being revealed.

I love this one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29cables.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

Even when they recount events that are already known, the cables offer remarkable details.

For instance, it has been previously reported that the Yemeni government has sought to cover up the American role in missile strikes against the local branch of Al Qaeda. But a cable’s fly-on-the-wall account of a January meeting between the Yemeni president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, and Gen. David H. Petraeus, then the American commander in the Middle East, is nonetheless breathtaking.

“We’ll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours,” Mr. Saleh said, according to the cable sent by the American ambassador, prompting Yemen’s deputy prime minister to “joke that he had just ‘lied’ by telling Parliament” that Yemeni forces had carried out the strikes.

Mr. Saleh, who at other times resisted American counterterrorism requests, was in a lighthearted mood. The authoritarian ruler of a conservative Muslim country, Mr. Saleh complains of smuggling from nearby Djibouti, but tells General Petraeus that his concerns are drugs and weapons, not whiskey, “provided it’s good whiskey.”

[Autumn]

9. No. I'm almost right there with you.

I think it's 100% bullshit.

[The Second Stone]

10. I think it is possible that repressive governments will

kill people they learn are spies.

Presumably when Plame was exposed as a spy all of her contacts were exposed and some presumably executed.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/20/04918/1941

I don't approve of the broadness of wikileaks, but as far as I know, the guy isn't a political operative of the Republican party or even a US citizen. What Cheny, Libby, Bush and Rove did was outright treason for political gain.

[alphafemale]

11. if it was wrong when Karl Rove did it. Then it's wrong if an alleged rapist does it.

Choose your heros wisely. I'm glad I'm not related to one of these insignificant low-level people who "might" be killed so that some ego-maniac can have another 15 minutes.

[backscatter712]

16. What, you actually believe the rape charges weren't cooked up?

Also, as I noted before, the Wikileaks documents were scrubbed of things like names of informants and other genuinely sensitive stuff.

The only information left is the evidence of criminality by our world's governments.

[alphafemale]

31. I have no idea if they are or not.

I'll trust the courts I guess.

[ProudDad]

32. Rove did it to promote the Empire

and to protect their lame excuse for war...

Wikileaks is doing it to fight the Empire and promote international survival...

BIG Difference...

[Union Scribe]

85. I see the campaign to discredit him is alive and well on this site.

[Pacifist Patriot]

87. Indeed.

[Freetradesucks]

12. Yes, just like it was 1000% bullshit

that the "pencil pusher" Valerie Plame's life was put into danger.

[superduperfarleft]

13. You don't think there's a difference between

the government outing one of their own operatives as an act of political revenge and the press using it's traditional role (for once) to act as a check on an overly-secretive government? Really?

[PeaceNikki]

15. OOoooo, so it's like that, huh?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Amonester]

73. Alerted for crude insults, and unwarranted, uncivil answer to a simple question

Enjoy your stay. :hi:
:thumbsdown:

[Enthusiast]

78. Right wing talking points aren't

exactly popular here.

[YOY]

93. Thanks Pal! I almost give a shit what Rush tells his idiot pack what to spew on the matter!

n/t

[backscatter712]

14. I might also point out that Wikileaks scrubbed the documents...

to remove sensitive information like names of informants & such.

So really, the only information that's left is that of the criminal and unethical behavior of the U.S. and other governments.

[Pavulon]

55. What crime? Nothing I have read is illegal. Bet they had warrants to

spy on the UN. Bet those warrants go back a 60 years.

[jberryhill]

17. Apparently the New York Times thought so, and scrubbed the documents

You are only seeing what the NYT and Assange have chosen to allow you to see.

[Kablooie]

18. Probably true. US officials may commit suicide.

[Individualist]

19. 100%

[Scruffy1]

59. Ditto-they said that about the last one.

[TexasObserver]

20. No, it's 99.999% bullshit.

The government buries its mistakes by classifying them, and then goes after anyone who tells on them.

The leaks serve the greater good.

[moondust]

21. What if it's not bullshit?

And it results in unnecessary deaths and more difficulty for NATO troops in bringing these wars to an end?

Still okay because the public was really, really curious and Julian Asshole was willing to betray all of NATO to become rich and famous?

The point is that YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FUCKING IDEA what the consequences will be so it is probably best if children do not play with dynamite.

[backscatter712]

23. At this point, the ends justify the means.

We may be saving more lives by exposing the criminality in our governments and taking the first steps to putting a stop to it.

[moondust]

25. As I stated,

YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA what the consequences will be; whether it will make matters better or worse or how many people's lives it could cost.

You are a child potentially playing with dynamite.

[MattSh]

71. Nor do you...

This might be adding gasoline to the fire, or putting water on it.

It's quite obvious that much time the last decade has been spent putting gasoline on the fires. I'm willing to risk that these disclosures might finally bring out the water.

Your freaking mileage may vary...

[TexasObserver]

24. You realize, don't you, that you're making the "Dick Cheney" argument?

ANY proposition can be justified if one is willing to play the "what if we don't know how much harm it will do" card every time.
I suggest you try the rational approach: Will more good than harm result from the leaks?

It's not that complicated. The world is better with knowledge than with secrecy.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

41. self delete

[patrice]

35. When you have decided that something is expendable in the first place, less expending of it is not

more valuable and more expending of it is not less valuable.

"Greater good" arguments are just book-keeping, based on quantities of something that is assumed to have intrinsic value in and of itself, regardless of its count.

[TexasObserver]

45. Your arguments are not logical.

[patrice]

46. Your argument appears to be cliche. Please tell me how "more" of something can be "more"

"valuable" if there is not absolutely intrinsic value in just one of whatever it is.

[TexasObserver]

47. More jargon that means nothing.

I am not interested in engaging you in one of your subthreads about nothing.

I've posted my opinion and don't care whether you agree or not. In fact, I'd be worried if you agreed.

[patrice]

50. Pardon me if I object to reducing "morality" to bookeeping. nt

[patrice]

52. I suspect it would mean something to you if you happened to fall in the less-than "greater good" set

[patrice]

53. Would it mean nothing if you were a person making decisions about other people's "Health" "Care"?

[patrice]

49. I will go with "The world is better . . . " but the numbers game doesn't work after the first innoce

nt, i.e. non-combatant, person is killed. Once that line has been crossed, more of something that has become value-less doesn't mean the same as before it was crossed. Isn't this supposed to be the basis of any law? Law applies no less to what has transpired with one victim than it does with ten.

[Enthusiast]

80. Pluuuuus one! nt

[Hissyspit]

30. And what are the consequences of not letting the truth out?

There has been no evidence of damage but lots of truth about corruption and unnecessary deaths revealed. The repeated scare tactics are starting to look like Chicken Little, and your response is just some slander and ad hominem.

[moondust]

37. You don't know that.

All you may know is what is reported in the media and they are not likely to know how many deaths are the result of compromised intelligence.

[ProudDad]

36. And what, pray tell, makes you think

that NATO or the Empire WANT "these wars to ... end"?

The "Permanent War Economy(tm)" is all about perpetual war...

Without which the capitalist Ponzi scheme economy would collapse...

Save your tears for the "Unnecessary deaths" of millions of innocent civilian folk caught up in the Empire's drive to exploit the Earth's resources for the short-term profit of the few...

The "children playing with dynamite" are the creatures of the "National Security State(tm)" who are fucking over me, thou and anyone else who gets in their way...

The assholes being exposed by Wikileaks...

[Hissyspit]

38. And the marginalization talking point: "children"

I'm not a child. Supporters of WikiLeaks are not children, and we don't have a childish world view.

[moondust]

39. Then you are

an adult potentially playing with dynamite not knowing that it can blow up in your face.

[Hissyspit]

43. I actually know a hell of a lot.

I am perfectly aware of potential consequences.

The "people are gonna die" warnings could be true, but they sure are sounding Chicken Littlish.

[Enthusiast]

81. Thank you for pointing this out.

RW talking points are suddenly losing their clout. Imagine that.

[Enthusiast]

79. Invading Afghanistan

and Iraq resulted in far more unnecessary deaths than the release of ANY information. Especially when both wars were completely unwarranted. I know how to end the wars: remove the troops until none remain.

[EFerrari]

95. Paternalistic bs. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Compared to the lives that secret diplomacy, agreements, deals, cost it would be a pittance..if any.

[patrice]

29. That's my point. They kill people ALL of the time and especially in Iraq big time, which the Leaks

reveal was all a CHOICE, not a necessity, on the government's part.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Yep. And, they're trying to blame the whistle-blowers for their own massive crimes.

[patrice]

44. Yes. Like we have nothing to say about who lives and who dies. We ARE slaves.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

70. where are the *massive* crimes in most of the diplomatic cables?

i know some of them have revealed crimes or corruption, but the vast majority seem to have nothing to do with crimes, corruption or illegal activities.

which leaves the questionwhy their releases are defined as 'whistle blowing' when one definition of such is: A whistleblower is a person who raises a concern about alleged wrongdoing occurring in an organization or body of people. Usually this person would be from that same organization. The alleged misconduct may be classified in many ways; for example, a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health/safety violations, and corruption.

personally i consider the release of classified information that is NOT relevant to illegal activities, crimes or corruption to be a crime, but obviously views differ.

[patrice]

26. I don't know how that can be a valid criticism from the group(s) whom the Leaks reveal had a bunch

of people KILLED for domestic politics and TRANSNATIONAL financial fiefdoms, including private War Profiteers.

So, even if it is true, how's it going to wash compared to the War Dead, American and Iraqi, when the Leaks are probably going to very clearly show that it was all a Business Decision?

[ProudDad]

28. Nope, you're not the only one...

In fact, I'm rejoicing and hoping for many many more leaks like this...

It's time to get some more materiel out of the Pentagon...

:rofl: :woohoo:

[jeff47]

42. We'll have to see.

Right now, I'm expecting whoever leaked this to the US Embassy is having a very bad day.

The Chinese aren't terribly kind to spies.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

51. It has been every single other time they used that line. n/t

[robinlynne]

54. I'm with you. corrupt people/governments dont like sunshine.

[undergroundpanther]

56. Lotta bullshit

Agree with you backscatter...

[sendero]

58. No..

... the leaks just embarrass people in high places.

People who should be embarrassed because they are CORRUPT and/or INCOMPETENT.

Our economy is in shambles, we are stuck in pointless wars, the criminals walk and everyone else pays. You can lay it ALL AT THE FEET OF OUR INCOMPETENT AND CORRUPT GOVERNMENT and anything that points that FACT out to the remaining dumbasses in this country is a good thing.

[harun]

68. The biggest threat to the National Security of the United States is corruption.

And where I sit I see three branches of corrupted government.

[Enthusiast]

82. The voice of reason. Plus one nt

[flyarm]

60. You are not alone at all! In fact ..I sat in Venezuela during the Iran Hostage crisis, living in a

Major Hotel with many Americans who had been in the Iranian Embassy before the take over. These were all important Embassy people. They had all been moved out and sent to Venezuela prior to the Take over of our Embassy. They sat at the pool with me daily for 4 months drinking..while their kids were put into American Schools there. They were being hidden in Venezuela , until they could be sent elsewhere!

[mahina]

61. Nope

I feel you!

[SoCalDem]

62. They remind me of a 16 year old whose diary is being passed around the lunchroom

None of these big shots saw anything "dangerous" when Valerie Plame's identity was unearthed and with it, her connections to spies abroad......did they?

[Exultant Democracy]

63. It seems like the shady shit we were doing is what has and will keep costing lives.

I don't see how you can blame something on a whistle blower when the only rational people to blame are the criminals.

[Overseas]

65. Amazing that over 800,000 Americans have had access to classified documents.

Close to 2.5 million people have access to the SIPRNet data -- staff at many government departments and agencies. Experience has shown, however, that the largest share of users are at the Department of Defense. The classified data is available on special computers that are set up at centers where US forces operate. The log-in procedures and passwords are changed approximately once every 150 days. But even documents that are classified at the highest level of "top secret" are still accessible to around 850,000 Americans. The leak of the diplomatic cables is an accident that was bound to happen sooner or later.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,731441,00.html

[backscatter712]

66. Someone on Reddit thought of it a different way - putting our governments through a full-body scan.

Karma's a bitch after the fuckers decided to use pornoscanners on the population at the airports.

Now the feds are getting porno-scanned in a way. I've got no sympathy for them.

:popcorn:

[Canuckistanian]

67. Sort of like THIS post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9645826

Right?

[backscatter712]

69. THAT's what I read!

Thanks for linking! :hi:

I remember reading that, didn't remember where I found it.

I stand corrected on the source.

[sabrina 1]

72. No, what I have learned, among other things, over the past number

of years is that when the government cries 'National Security! National Security!' they are desperate to hide something.

We didn't believe it when Bush used it as an excuse, and I don't know many people who believe it now.

[Enthusiast]

83. They have been doing it since Nam. nt

[Cobalt-60]

74. its 100% BS - The Pure Stuff

These cockroaches will say anything keep their dirty and disloyal deals out of the sun.

[defendandprotect]

75. It's BS .... agree with you !!

[HEyHEY]

76. Depends on the info... I don't think ambassadors using nicknames for world leaders would

[Enthusiast]

77. You are not the only one. nt

[old mark]

84. I think it is much more likely to damage the carreers and reputations of Diplomats

and some people and agencies in government...That would be a real tragedy, huh?

mark

[mmonk]

86. You're correct.

It's about exposure of today's rogue unilateral America.

[Pacifist Patriot]

88. Can't agree with you.

I'm thinking it's a lot closer to 100% ;-) We're well into CYA not CIA territory now.

[AndrewP]

89. I'm kind of on the fence about this right now

I think there may be consequences that aren't good with this leak. But at the same time I really don't have a problem with a lot of the corruption being exposed to the light of day as well.

I know for cetain that I'll be reading as much of this as I can get my hands on.

[Enrique]

90. Julian Assange has blood on his hands!

and our national security apparatus is keeping us safe!

:sarcasm:

[felix_numinous]

91. The 'lives' threatened by wikileaks

are the guilty. Everyone else is hungry for some truth for a change. Now with mountains of evidence, the question is: Is there a shred of justice left in this country?

Where are the freaking honest lawyers? Where are the honest judges? Where are the honest military leaders? Where are the honest people who work in the State Department? Are we to believe the whole mess is corrupt, or are the threatened and afraid for their safety, or are they all bribed??

The hardest part of this experience is realizing that no one will stand up to these criminals, for whatever reason, and that it is up to the common folk to face arrest, harassment, violence and incarceration, since going against these people can label you a terrorist.

[Raster]

92. No. You are NOT the only one. What is costing lives is the unchecked activities of the...

American Military Industrial Complex and it's frontman, the Pentagon. What Wikileaks does do is make it harder for the MIC and the Pentagon to ram their bullshit down America's throats and have it accepted as undisputed fact.

[Gregorian]

94. If it preempts the wars they were trying to start, then it'll save lives.

It doesn't take a third grader to see that.

This entire secret governmental workings is nothing more than means by which THEY can pave the way for the corporations. That is proven fact. Noam Chomsky has shown that for decades. Plame was outed without anyone paying the price for doing so. And Iraq was supposed to be a way of shifting the profits to US companies.

God bless Julian.

[rucky]

96. Yes. Especially because I also think there are no smoking guns in it.

But I can't stop reading 'em.

[BrklynLiberal]

97. I agree with you...

[barbtries]

98. i agree with you.

99% bullshit sounds about right to me.

[bvar22]

99. The TRUTH will set us free.

"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson, 1820.

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render even them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson, 1782.

"The most effectual means of preventing to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits, that possessed thereby of the experience of other ages and countries, they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes." --Thomas Jefferson, 1779.

"The information of the people at large can alone make them the safe as they are the sole depositary of our political and religious freedom." --Thomas Jefferson, 1810.

"The diffusion of information and the arraignment of all abuses at the bar of public reason, I deem the essential principles of our government, and consequently those which ought to shape its administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801.