To atheist parents during this "holiest" of seasons:

[kag]

When I married my husband one thing that we did not have to overcome was a difference in religions. He was an avowed atheist, having grown up in a fairly non-religious household; I was a new agnostic, having been raised VERY Catholic but become disenchanted after moving away from my family.

When we decided to have kids we didn't really discuss what to say to them about gods and faith and religion, and all those things they would begin hearing about once they started elementary school. I think we just figured religion was like potty training--we knew it would be messy work, but we'd wait till they were ready.

And sure enough, once they began talking to other kids, the inevitable questions came home as regularly as art projects: Why don't we go to church? Why does Seth wear that funny hat? What's that weird thing Mary does with her hands before she eats? Johnny said I'm going to hell, am I? What's Hell? And rather than batting them away with platitudes like "We'll talk when you're older" or "Go ask Dad," we took each question and discussed it the way we had discussed everything in their lives--by telling them the truth.

Now, trying to teach a six-year-old about Limbo is tough enough when you BELIEVE in Limbo. So none of these questions were exactly easy to answer. It took some work, some discussion, some repetition, and a VAST amount of the patience of Job. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) But slowly, they began to understand that other people just believed different things than their parents, and that that didn't make them stupid or weird or wrong. Throughout the process we tried hard not to be judgmental, just to teach them what we knew to be true, and to try to explain why so many people believed differently.

When they got into middle school some of this discussion backfired a little. My son got in trouble in sixth grade for wearing a sign around his neck that read "The End is Near." One boy, whose Bible-school-teaching mother was a close friend of mine, began to cry nervously, and another kept ripping the sign off of his neck, "forcing" him to make a new one. Needless to say, much family discussion ensued.

The toughest discussion came after the mother of one of my daughter's third-grade classmates was killed in a tragic bike accident. The whole school was devastated. My daughter and I went to the memorial service, and I could see in her face the questions piling up like so much dirty laundry. Once the initial pain subsided, she got around to asking them. At first I was afraid she had stumped me, and I would have to give in and send her to see her father. But I remember the words forming in my head almost simultaneously as I spoke them, "It's very sad, and it's okay to cry for your friend who has lost someone so dear. But it is precisely BECAUSE it is SO tragic that people get comfort from their faith. It's much easier to believe that your friend's mother is sitting on a magical mountain, eating bonbons, and smiling down at us, than to admit that we just don't know."

I am the first to say that raising kids in a "non-believing" household is a challenge. And the winter holidays can be the most challenging time of all. Every Christmas Carol, every Salvation Army bucket, every manger in someone's front yard prompts new questions: What's a virgin? (Be ready for this one; it comes sooner than you think.) What is Hanukkah, and how do you spell it? Does this mean I can't sing Christmas carols? And from my science-minded son, How can a star hang over one spot on the Earth?

As they have gotten older, the discussions are less one-sided. My kids have formed opinions and beliefs of their own, and have become more tolerant of others'. My ninth-grade son is an avowed Secular Humanist, a "belief system" I had never heard of until he found it on the web. (Thank God for the Internet, so to speak.) My daughter, now twelve, will tell you confidently that she doesn't prescribe to a particular religion, but she believes in reincarnation. The two of them have even begun engaging each other, sometimes even respectfully, about their own beliefs. And they go out of their way to learn about religions of the world. I find it a healthy curiosity, and try to encourage it.

Now, I'm no super-mom. And I know full well that my children are not perfect. They watch way too much television, they claim to be allergic to all green food, and they hide whenever someone starts cleaning. But on this one subject I feel like I have advice to give to new parents who might be in a similar position. Your kids are smarter than you think. Don't be afraid to tell them what you believe and what you don't. Anything else is hypocrisy, and they'll see right through it.

[ZombieHorde]

1. Recommended. I never realized how much anti-atheist bigotry existed in this country

until I had kids.

[Taverner]

2. I feel your pain

Both me and wifey are Atheist/Agnostics and being in NorCal Suburbia, we get the questions too.

My son has a good friend who says he prays every night so Nate doesn't go to hell - we think its kind of funny actually

[BetsysGhost]

83. Jesus spoke of how to Pray

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,
Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
as in heaven, so in earth.


3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins;
for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.

http://www.bartleby.com/108/42/11.html#S65

Chapter of Luke #11

It sounds to me that Jesus is saying ask for little.
Ask that my needs are taken care of,
Ask for tolerance and forgiveness for others, and be patient of ourselves.
Finally - strength of character so we won't be overcome by the Dark side.



Ironic isn't it?

[Butch350]

118. I was just wondering...

I am not trying to be a wise-a**

But, can you prove that jesus said such things. I just can't take the word of man.

Men lie to acheive agendas - ie...the bible. It'll be religion that detroys the world.

Yes. I know I will burn in hell for such blasphome.

[BetsysGhost]

123. um, I have no need to prove

sorry.

















blasphome* spell check has this as blaspheme or blasphemy*

[Steely_Dan]

3. Wonderful post...

I have always held to the belief that children are much smarter than we think they are.

-P

[Warren DeMontague]

4. There used to be a website at "Atheistparents.org", but it looks like it's down.

Too bad.

[Pacifist Patriot]

67. This site's pretty good.

http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/

[October]

5. Beautifully written

Our family is very similar to yours in many respects.

Honesty wins -- we simply DON'T KNOW all the answers...

[obxhead]

6. Well written. Rec nt

[hayu_lol]

8. The fact that your kids...

are self-assembling what they know and observe shows that you are on the right track. They think by themselves which is a good thing.

REC.

[sharesunited]

7. You have spared them a lot of tearing down to rebuild. The foundation is securely there.

A foundation they can build upon with a lifelong sense of meaning, purpose, insight and participation.

Children are their own persons. They can turn out completely different from their parents despite their parents' futile attempt to control the path their children are required to follow.

The penetentiaries are full of individuals for whom their parents bear no blame whatsoever.

[BanzaiBonnie]

9. Thank you for sharing this

Honesty. That's the ticket.

I have my own beliefs. But I always let my children know that "we don't know" what happens or if anything happens after you die.

[BlueJazz]

10. You Lie in your post.

You ARE a Super-Mom. :)

[kag]

12. You're too kind.

And I got that message just after taking the tater-tots out of the oven. BTW, my hubby likes your sig line.

[kag]

11. Thanks for the recs.

Though I may have touched a nerve. (ya think?) The un-rec'ers are out in force.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Brilliant post..and you and your hubby are to be congratulated on raising children

with open, inquiring minds..who are able to do their own research, and decide FOR THEMSELVES what they want to believe.

[riderinthestorm]

14. K & R. Your excellent OP is exactly how we've handled it.

My two daughters are 23 and 14 years old. They are both critical thinkers and intelligent enough that they could always handle the truth. In fact, my older girl was one of those who was furious at me for "lying" about Santa when she found out the truth.

Both of them knew I would take them to any church, mosque, synagogue, or temple in their quest for knowledge but that their parents were non-believers. Since I grew up in an evangelical Christian church, they know the bible stories very well, and the religious reasons for the holidays etc. etc. Religion wasn't ever censored at our house but it was discussed factually, scientifically and rationally. Their grandmother (my mom) also made sure to do her level best to indoctrinate them when they spent time with her. We simply learned to discuss whatever she was trying to force them to believe after they got home, quietly and without drama. From personal experience, I know/knew that they would find their own beliefs as they got older. All I could do was show them MY way, and make sure they had all the tools at their disposal to find THEIR way.

We lived for 25 years in Wheaton IL, one of the most fundy enclaves in the US so being atheists was pretty damn tough, for them and us. They absolutely faced prejudice and a degree of social ostracisim for our beliefs in that town (where the first question you are asked is what church you go to). Both my girls were told by their "friends", that they were going to hell for not believing.

But they come by their core principles honestly, and without any brainwashing from us. My older girl is agnostic, I'd say my younger girl is more militantly atheist at this stage (but at 14 years old, she's a drama queen anyway! Lol).

[kag]

22. The one thing that makes it all easier...

is that our community is pretty liberal (with a few outspoken exceptions). While most are Christian, they're by and large open-minded and accepting. And there are enough families like ours that our kids were never made to feel ostracized. Sounds like your kids had a few more hurdles to overcome.

Like you, we have tried to educate our kids (or let them educate themselves) about various religions. I think taking the mystery out of it kind of empowers them to deal with intolerant people.

[CrispyQ]

15. I love this:

"And from my science-minded son, How can a star hang over one spot on the Earth?"

:)

I think you & your husband are doing a fab job!

[localroger]

16. Great story, & great job raising your kids! /nt

[DavidDvorkin]

17. Good for you. We raised our son as an atheist

He has since thanked us for not subjecting him to religion.

[KansasVoter]

18. +1 FOR A WONDERFUL POST!!

[DavidDvorkin]

19. Of course, this is only the holiest of seasons to a Christian

I was raised Jewish, and in our family, the High Holy Days were the holiest season.

[WinkyDink]

20. No, actually, it isn't; Easter is.

[DavidDvorkin]

25. I actually knew that!

But I get the impression that most Christians don't.

[knitter4democracy]

29. Depends on which kind of Christian you are.

In reality, when you get down to basic theology, Easter is. In practice, though, most Western churches place a higher priority on Christmas. There's more prep (Advent being followed more than Lent), there are more decorations, there are better and more hymns, etc.

I'm Eastern Orthodox, and yes, Easter is the high-point of the year with the best music, more prep, Lent is a bigger deal than the Christmas fast (Small Lent, as some call it), and the most important liturgies. I grew up Nazarene and Methodist, though, so I know the difference. I will admit to preferring the Western Christmas carols to ours, though, as they're much prettier. If only I could find just the right blend of the two churches, East and West. ;)

[JustAnotherGen]

64. I was hoping someone would point that out

I'm a UU - Judeo-Yesh based - so for us? It is the high holy season - but if you look at the history of it in America? Its this Humanist 'religion' of mine that caused the 'Merry Christmas'. To the atheists - I apologize. To the Christians (all sects - as U's we are not 'Christians' - Oh well. :rofl:

[AlbertCat]

89. Depends on which kind of Christian you are.

Hey.... there's only one way.



So one celebrates the Vernal Equinox more than the Winter Solstice. (calling them something else)

[knitter4democracy]

133. One way but many paths.

Everyone has a different path.

[provis99]

111. or as the pagan egg-and-rabbit worshippers point out, it is Eostre.

but that's Christianity for you.

[Dappleganger]

115. Yes, Easter is it.

[HipChick]

21. My atheist 11yr old niece...

she lost her mother at 9yrs to cancer

she can't stand to hear anything about God taking her mother

she had to be exempt from any religious education classes at her school, she didn't/wouldn't tow the line, asked far too many questions, particulary that religions seemed no better than Fairy Tales..made up

[kag]

23. Interesting.

I lost my mom (also to cancer) when I was sixteen. I think rather than being a comfort to me, it actually made me resent religion even more. Thus the switch to agnosticism as soon as I was out of the house.

[rurallib]

27. Wish I could rec a response also.

[DFW]

61. We had the "fairy tale" discussion, too

My wife and I are not religious, and though religion is taught at the high school they attended
here in Düsseldorf, it is taught as an informative subject, and not as indoctrination.

My wife's mom, on the other hand, while a liberal thinker, is also a devout Catholic. She is a
wonderful old lady, and we rarely have any disputes, but we came close to it when our daughters
were 5 and 7 (they are now 25 2nd 27). She once took them to mass with her without asking me if
I was OK with it. I blew up. She couldn't understand why. My wife even asked why I made such a
big deal out of it. I told her why.

We always read fairly tales to our girls, and explained the difference between fiction and reality
early. Like the OP said, children are far smarter than adults think (long term memory loss). If they
catch on that adults don't believe something, chances are, they won't believe it either. My wife
asked me what harm I saw in taking 5 and 7 year old kids to Mass. I said that here was a church with
adults present, reminding everyone present that 2000 years ago some guy was killed and tossed into
a cave with a ten ton boulder to seal the entrance. He then awoke from the dead, tossed aside the
ten ton boulder, gathered around his best friends, said bye-bye (again), and then had his dad do an
ancient version of "beam me up, Scotty." Think about it, I said. I do not want our girls being told
that this particular fairy tale is true. Smart as kids are, if their 60+ year old grandmother, whom
they love and respect, takes them to a place of support for people who are constantly told that this
is the truth, then they are robbed of the chance to think it out for themselves. I will not have them
being taken to a place like this until they are old enough to decide for themselves, and I will not
have them robbed of the chance to come to their own conclusions.

[NNN0LHI]

24. I had no problem raising my two daughters as atheists

When we felt they were old enough to tell them that there was no Santa Claus and Easter Bunny we finished up and explained to them that there was no God either. They understood and never had a problem with it. They both turned out fine.

Don

[JBoy]

26. kag, this is one of the best posts I've read in months.

Sounds like you've got some great kids. I look forward to hearing more from you here.

BTW, I laughed at the story of your son's sign around his neck. That's something I might have done (maybe a little later than 6th grade...).

[kag]

28. Thanks.

I always say it's hard to take credit for my kids because they made it easy for us. Though they had their moments--like the sign. That's an absolutely true story, and the Bible-school-teaching mom is still a dear friend.

[rurallib]

30. Many similarities to the path we trod

Although we were never "officially" atheist or agnostic. I tried to give my 2 daughters some religious training (mostly because of all the religious references in art & literature), but we gave up real fast because it was just such crap.
So now there is another generation among us. When I asked about the religion issue (other Grandparents are catholic) my daughter said no baptism, no religious training. We'll just tell the truth when questions come up. Her Hubby is atheist also, so not a problem.

[knitter4democracy]

31. It's not that different from those of us believers raising our kids to question.

I make mine go to church, but I also make it clear that liturgy is something I need and they can't be home alone, so they just have to be respectful. My daughter's a believer and always has been, so she tends to get more out of liturgy than my son, the skeptic, does. I'm trying to raise them to ask questions (puts all of my years of study to the test, let me tell ya) and think about faith, not just blindly follow mine.

When I almost died, I got to the point where I hated it when people said people die because God takes them. That's an awful thing to say and not true (in my belief, at least, and my interpretation of the Gospels), so I make sure never to say that kind of thing. When my dad died last spring, it really helped my daughter (who took it hard) to think of him in Heaven, but our side of Christianity (Eastern Orthodox) says that we don't know, which is why we continue to pray for mercy for those who have passed on. My son is just confused, and I'm encouraging him to think it through and come up with his own answers.

The reality is, faith is built on mystery, so there's no way I can have all the answers. Instead, I want my children going out and finding their own path. My path is mine, and theirs is theirs.

[kag]

33. That's what it's all about.

Like I said (sort of), if you try to tell your kids anything other than what you believe yourself, they'll sense it. I think as long as we're all teaching our kids to be respectful of others' beliefs, they'll all be the stronger for it.

[surrealAmerican]

32. Well said.

I'd like to add that one of the best tools a parent can use with young children to introduce the idea of "belief" without any indoctrination, is mythology. Even very young children understand that these stories can be useful without being factual. It it does help them understand why people believe in religious teachings, even when they themselves don't.

[BlueMTexpat]

60. Here is where the national treasure aka Bill Moyers and his PBS series

on Joseph Campbell can come in handy. According to Wiki(pedia, not leaks):

"A fundamental belief of Campbell's was that all spirituality is a search for the same basic, unknown force from which everything came, within which everything currently exists, and into which everything will return. This elemental force is ultimately 'unknowable' because it exists before words and knowledge. Although this basic driving force cannot be expressed in words, spiritual rituals and stories refer to the force through the use of 'metaphors' — these metaphors being the various stories, deities, and objects of spirituality we see in the world. For example, the Genesis myth in the Bible ought not be taken as a literal description of actual events, but rather its poetic, metaphorical meaning should be examined for clues concerning the fundamental truths of the world and our existence.<19>

Accordingly, Campbell believed the religions of the world to be the various, culturally influenced 'masks' of the same fundamental, transcendent truths. All religions, including Christianity and Buddhism, can bring one to an elevated awareness above and beyond a dualistic conception of reality, or idea of 'pairs of opposites,' such as being and non-being, or right and wrong. Indeed, he quotes in the preface of The Hero with a Thousand Faces: 'Truth is one, the sages speak of it by many names.' — which is a translation of the Rig Vedic saying, 'Ekam Sat Vipra Bahuda Vadanthi.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

The website for the Joseph Campbell Foundation: http://www.jcf.org/

[Codeine]

34. I know everyone has told you that yours was a wonderful post

but I figured I'd pile on and add my own praise. :yourock: SuperMom indeed!!

[backscatter712]

35. Ever read Darrel Ray's The God Virus? He has some advice for atheists raising kids.

He suggests that in order to innoculate kids against religious memetic viruses, that you introduce your kids to multiple different religions, in light doses. One week, take them to a church service (not hard-core fundie, but a moderate-to-liberal church), the next week, show them a mosque, the next week a synagogue, then a Buddhist temple, etc. Of course, in there, mention atheism, and why some people don't practice religion at all. Discuss the differences between the religions, the different practices, the different beliefs.

Give them a small taste of the virus, sort of like how a vaccine is an attenuated or killed version of a biological virus. And by going to different religions, seeing different, conflicting beliefs, eventually the kids will figure out for themselves that religious belief doesn't make sense, and they'll become far more resistant to religious indoctrination.

[grace0418]

36. I remember taking a world religions class in college. I was an art major and thought

the class would help me with my art history classes. Plus I thought it would be interesting. I was raised Catholic but never believed any of it, and completely stopped any church nonsense as soon as I left the house.

Anyway, the class was very interesting. And the one thing that stood out to me most of all is that people of the major world religions fight and die over the most minor of differences in their religions. Most of them are remarkably similar, but they all think they are THE ONE TRUE FAITH.

[AlbertCat]

73. the major world religions fight and die over the most minor of differences

Ain't that the truth!

But religion, as a subject matter and a psychological thing is very interesting.

I got interested in HOW these ideas 1st came about.... in pre-history. Did some cave man eat the wrong mushroom? Does your brain form notions and categories to help it cope with the real world, like the idea of a soul, or an ultimate leader in the sky or an afterlife? Can we simply not help but to anthropomorphize everything, including nature?

I like Carl Sagan's idea that early man saw the camp fires of neighbors dotting the hillside and then took the stars for camp fires in the sky....with sky-people who must be magically powerful to go with them. ( I also like his idea about the "afterlife" experience many people have on the operating table, or under some kind of great trauma. A distant memory of birth: going down a tunnel to the light where there's an authority figure, brought up by extreme trauma.)

I don't have kids. But I do frame my atheism for anyone who asks as being independent of religion. I simply reject anything supernatural. If it exists and can have "consequences" in this universe, then it is natural. It happens/exists merely because the laws of physics allow for it.

[Alcibiades]

52. This is very similar to what I'm doing

My boy is five going on six, and my little girl is two. She's a toddler, and he's also quite young, but very precocious. while I will not darken the door of any church unless necessary, I do teach him about religion, or religions. All of them, including the ones that have become unpopular.

He seems to understand. Kids ask the best questions, because they are less full of bullshit.

[kag]

54. Congrats.

It's quite a ride, but sounds like you've got it down pretty good.

Yeah, we used to have a precocious 5-year-old. Now we have a 14-year-old pain-in-the-ass. Just kidding. But I've often said, if you want to know anything, ask a teenager. They know EVERYTHING. And they especially know just how much their parents DON'T know.

[Alcibiades]

68. And they also don't know

how little they know themselves, which is the first requirement for wisdom.

[krabigirl]

56. That's almost what we do.

I take the kids (DH really doesn't like going so i don't force it) to a local UU fellowship every other week or so. The other Sundays, we go on hikes or whatever. When they are older (mine are 2 and almost 4), i also want to take them to local Buddhist temples and mosques, etc. The UU does give good introduction to all religions but i want them to see how others worship. I am agnostic/somewhat of a deist and my husband is humanist.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. Funny you should use that word. I was innoculated by reading norse and greek mythology as a kid.

And that is exactly how I think of it. Innoculation.

When I encountered Christianity, I thought to myself 'this is the same wishful bullshit', and moved on. No one could quantify for me why older polytheistic and monotheistic religions were relegated to 'mythology', while Christianty stood as 'fact'.

Quickly became clear to me that it was all mythology.

[Sheepshank]

37. wow..change the early belief to mormonism and I could have written this.

But not nearly as calmly and eloquently as you just did.

One of the things that really bothers me, and its something I talk to my daughters about, is "moral compass". We are constantly being bombarded with the idea that religion and in this case only mormonism can provide a person with a moral compass. So much bull. Religion has hijacked the premise that goodness only comes form being taught from a magical book or Mormon or bible. Again bull.

Living and and participating in society establishes, defines and delineates much of our moral compass. We know not to take what isn't ours....for we realize that someone else worked and paid for the possession, that should be respected, and we simply don't deserve to take it. We should work for and appreciate our own possessions. We know that most lies cause harm and damage our own credibility and trust. We give respect and politeness, if it's something we want in return. Do we want to be hurt needlessly by harsh words or gossip or lies? Of course not, so perhaps it's a good practice to try a little empathy in our dealings with those we come in contact with. We realize that life is important not only to the individual but their family...we don't kill.

My discussions (in the area of moral compass) with my children sometimes reinforces for them that their young decisions to not attend a religious service does not define their personal goodness or badness nor their ability to discern good from bad....and those trying to force that premise are simply erroneous.

[backscatter712]

38. When they're teenagers, tell them about Lot and Sodom & Gomorrah.

Make sure you mention how Lot was visited by a pair of angels, then when the mob came to Lot's door in Sodom, and said "Bring out your guests, so that we may know them!" (by "know them", they mean rape the hell out of them), Lot refused, and instead offered up his virgin daughters (the ones that later got Lot drunk, shagged him and got incestuously pregnant) for the mob to "know"...

What moral lessons should be learned from the story of Lot?

[Sheepshank]

43. use condoms?

[kag]

50. When the mob comes...

Don't answer the door?

Edited to put the apostrophe in the right place.

[backscatter712]

58. The mob was in the process of breaking down Lot's door

That's how badly they wanted a piece of angel-ass.

And that's when the angels blinded the mob (the Bible doesn't say HOW the angels struck the mob-members blind...)

[kag]

59. Angel ass...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :fistbump:

[kag]

48. Excellent point.

Hope you don't mind if I share some of what you wrote about the moral compass with my kids. From the comments I've seen here I think a lot of us DUers are in a similar religious boat.

I think the best part about raising our children this way is that if they decide later to join an organized religion, they go into it with their eyes open. And if they don't, it won't take years of therapy to undo the damage.

Also, I meant to mention this in my a OP, but it got away from me. Some of our favorite "Christmas" songs are

"The Christians and the Pagans" by Dar Williams,
"The Rebel Jesus" by Jackson Browne, and of course,
"Merry Christmas from the Family" by Robert Earl Keen

I recommend them all, but if you haven't already heard it you might want to check out that last one before sharing it with the young 'uns.

[uppityperson]

39. odd dupe, it didn't post so I clicked again and voila

k&r

[JanMichael]

45. What happened? dupiddydupidy...

[uppityperson]

49. It didn't post so I clicked again and it went nuts duppityduppitydupe

Don't call me Shirley

[uppityperson]

40. dupe

k&r

[uppityperson]

and another dupe

k&r

[uppityperson]

dupe dupe dupe

k&r

[uppityperson]

41. dupe dupe

k&r

[uppityperson]

really Santa, I am a good girl

k&r

[JanMichael]

46. I think Santa (Satan) hates you! nt

[uppityperson]

42. Santa is the spirit of giving altruistically and has many of us as helpers.

k&r

[Sheepshank]

44. Which reminds me re: God vs Santa

We really do enjoy the giving season. Always have. We totally bought into the whole surprise of someone/Santa secretly giving them just what the kids needed.

One day, we were all chatting...they were ooohh 7 yo on down. I asked them (sort of as a joke since I knew they knew very little about god, jesus etc), what they thought of as the relationship with God and Santa.

DD#1 says, "well, Santa is stronger because god just makes promises, Santa delivers". And thus we have a family haa haa moment that has hung around for a long time :)

[July]

121. Okay, Sheepshank, I am impressed with your DD#1!

I've often made the claim that Santa is more real to people (in this country, at least) than God, because of the agreed-upon "conspiracy" among adults to make him real, but the thought didn't occur to me until I was an adult. Pretty deep seven-year-old (or younger)! That must have cracked you up at the time!

[ShamelessHussy]

47. great post, thanks for sharing!

the 'end is near' bit had me lol

excellent advice, and i have raised my children in a similar manner, being truthful with them, and treating them with respect as well as love. we have some great chats, and can talk about many things, i loooooove it!

:hi:

[Orrex]

51. Watched some of The Fellowship of the Ring with my almost-7-year-old today

When the opening titles came up, he asked "What's a Lord?"


As far as letting him decide for himself in matters of belief, I can say only this: he realized that the Easter Bunny sounded like nonsense three years ago.

[HuckleB]

53. Great post.

It made me think of this blog, which addresses many of these concerns for parents who are atheist or "without belief."

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/

[ShamelessHussy]

55. thanks for the link HuckleB

bookmarked :hi:

[HuckleB]

70. You're welcome!

:toast:

[Lugnut]

57. Your children are very lucky to have you.

My parents shoved Catholicism down my throat. It worked out all right until I got older and could no longer buy into it. My children were of school age when I was evaluating where I stood with the religion into which I was born. We sent them to a Catholic school. When my seven-year-old son went for his first confession he asked me why he couldn't directly tell God what he'd done that was sinful without telling the priest too. I had no answer for him. My husband and I always told the kids that they could talk to God themselves. A light bulb lit up in my head. My child, at seven years of age, was not as naive as I was at the age of thirty.

[PassingFair]

110. Is this your mother?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

I will never forget this "mother from hell"!

:rofl:

[Solly Mack]

62. K&R

[GOPBasher]

63. I've had many similar experiences with my kids. Good job, and nice post! n/t

[WhiteTara]

65. This "holy" season is based on the

return of the SUN. This pagan holiday celebrated the lengthening of days, the so called "turning of the wheel" of life from darkness to light.

[Pacifist Patriot]

66. LOL!

Now, I'm no super-mom. And I know full well that my children are not perfect. They watch way too much television, they claim to be allergic to all green food, and they hide whenever someone starts cleaning.

Were we separated at birth?

Have you read Parenting Beyond Belief edited by Dale McGowan? Also has a website http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/

Someone has probably already posted this information, but I'm in a pinch for time so my apologies if it's a duplicate.

[Romulox]

69. OK. But please remember that Xmas is just a celebration of the Winter Solstice

Buy your kids some goddamned toys! :mad:

[kag]

119. Ahem.

Not sure what I did to warrant your :mad: but just FYI...

We do, in fact, buy our kids goddamned toys. (I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and interpret that phrase as irony.) We celebrate Christmas just like a lot of Christians and non-Christians alike. The tree, the stockings, the lights, the cookies and milk for Santa (when they were littler), the relatives, the baking, the whole ball of wax.

As they've grown, my son became enchanted with the idea of Christmas as the Winter Solstice celebration rather than a religious holiday, so we like to keep that in mind as we go about the holiday season.

[Romulox]

136. I was just being silly--playing up the incongruity between "goddamned" and atheism

Sorry if it sounded mean/aggressive. Meant it to be silly. :hi:

[gateley]

71. Although I have no kids and have long ago come up with my very own personal

belief system :7, this is thought provoking and a very interesting look into the lives of families such as yours.

Sounds to me as though you guys did it well, and it sounds as though your kids have benefitted greatly.

On my way to Google Secular Humanism. :hi:

[thesquanderer]

72. "When Children Ask About God" - an Agnostic Handbook

I thought "When Children Ask About God" (Harold Kushner) was a good book, in terms of not just "explanation" but also managing to derive some value from religious concepts, without necessarily having to get all supernatural about it. It has a Jewish foundation, but it doesn't promote "superstitious" beliefs (Jewish or otherwise).

[RadiationTherapy]

74. "Sitting on a magical mountain eating bonbons" is a bit diminutive of others' faiths.

Great piece, but that phrase is a bit cruel in its humor.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Please explain how "magical mountains"

is any more ridiculous that this
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/heaven.html
or any other religious description of heaven.

Edited to add: or this http://www.bible.ca/su-heaven-like.htm

Edited again to add: or holy shit this http://users.belgacom.net/gc674645/heaven/sexinhev.htm Angel Sex!

[Arugula Latte]

82. You can replace "magical mountains" with "fluffy clouds"

amidst winged creatures playing harps. Because that really is what millions of people believe. Millions.

Scary.

[kag]

120. I certainly did not mean to offend.

And in all honesty I probably didn't phrase it like that when I was talking with my daughter. (Don't remember my exact words.) Respecting other people's beliefs is absolutely part of what I try to instill in my kids.

Your point is well-taken. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

[L0oniX]

76. Christmas is a lie. There is no record of it being celebrated year after year in the bible.

[Swamp Rat]

103. Too bad X-Mas trees aren't smokable

:smoke:

[Daemonaquila]

77. You're making it out to be a lot harder than it is.

I was brought up in a no-faith household, and my parents had no problem with it at all. My dad read Genesis to me a few times as a bedtime story so I'd know something about Christianity - and for humor value. It was also great fodder for discussing how shockingly immoral the story's messages and "God's will" were. I couldn't help but grow up knowing about Christ and Christmas because it came at me from all sides. We just laughed about it at home. Christ was just a silly figure like Santa Claus, not even good fiction. We borrowed some traditions, like a Christmas tree, because they were fun.

Other aspects of religion (especially Christianity) I learned in the schoolyard like people worry about their kids learning about sex. Whether I was taught or just absorbed various concepts, my parents never took it seriously, never tried to explain any of it to me, and just made sure I knew enough about certain holidays, concepts, etc. that I didn't make any really bad social faux pas. When I got old enough to want better info on other people's silly myths, my father (who had gone to a religious university on the cheap and was extremely well schooled in multiple faiths) just pointed me at various resources and chatted about the things that confused me.

So nonbelievers and not-sure-you-believers, don't sweat it. Nothing about raising your children to doubt comfortably should be awkward or hard.The kids will be FINE.

[kag]

124. Well, of course it was easy for YOU.

You were on the receiving end. I didn't mean to imply that raising kids this way was any harder than raising kids period, but the fact is, raising kids is hard. Fulfilling, exciting, fun, intense, emotional...and HARD. At least if you're trying to do it well.

As I said in the post, my husband and I didn't plan how we were going to address the issue; we really just winged it, which I suspect is how most parents do it. Just like potty training.

So, tell you what. I'll try not to make teaching kids about religion in an atheist household terribly difficult, if you'll try not to make raising kids in general sound like a walk in the proverbial park.

[Arugula Latte]

79. We're in the same boat. In some ways, it's EASIER to raise kids when you're atheist/agnostic

Think about it ... How are you going to explain to kids that your particular version of a fairy tale (let's say, Jesus being the only magical dude in Earth's history who died and will come back again, etc. etc.) makes pefect sense, yet the fairy tales of other religions don't hold water? It's easier for us to tell kids that humans believe many versions of stories and mythologies to be true, but that we see that they're ALL tall tales and most people buy into them because a particular version of a tall tale is the one that was handed down to them by their parents, mostly due to flukes of geography.

[Green_Lantern]

80. I just disagree with your point about death

That story was nice but I take issue that those of us who believe in God and the afterlife think dead people sit on a magic mountain eating bonbons.

I don't think atheists can possibly know there is not an afterlife any more than a Christian can know Christ is the only path to God.

As far as the mythology of Christmas you can also just tell your kids that some people take it too literally and forget the real meaning.

The most important thing religious and nonreligious families to teach kids is to have a joyful and loving heart and respect differences in other people.

I really like that you actually have a discussion with your kids...you sound like a good parent to me.

[Shrader]

81. Beautiful post n/t

[demigoddess]

84. What about, "some people believe that but some people don't"?

I used that once when my son was about 12, he and a friend came to my house from a youth service at the local church. The friend said, did you know that the world will end in less than 5 years and we will all die?? He looked so scared that I could not stand it, I told him that "some people believe that but not everybody". He looked relieved. That was 20 some years ago. We are all still alive.

[Lorien]

85. I was raised by atheists and I don't recall asking any question beyond

"what happens when we die?" (answer "no one knows for certain"). We were taught that religious people needed religion because they didn't like uncertainty, and we accepted that. There were no religious people in my school (private and liberal) or among my parents circle-though my grandparents were Mennonites, the Mennonites aren't evangelical and they keep their beliefs to themselves. I guess that the religiously insane have increase in number and volume over the decades. It's sad to see the Nation de-evolving so rapidly.

[PSzymeczek]

114. My relatives on my father's side

of the family are Mennonites, too. Some of my great-grandparents were Amish. My father was excommunicated back during the Great Depression for "carousing."

[Stuckinthebush]

86. This is a great post - thanks.

I had a nice discussion just last night with two of my daughters about religion. My 11 year old asked why her mother and I didn't raise them as Christians. I told her that we weren't Christians so it would be hypocritical to raise them as such. I also reminded her that we have always said that they are free to believe what they want to believe as they get older. She said, "Yes I know, but since you didn't make us believe it when we were younger, it is now really hard for me to believe it." I said, "Consider that a gift."

[alturn]

87. This is how the Christ could be in the world for 33 years and be hardly be seen

For the past few years we have had a booth at a December event which allegedly celebrates the season. In it we show pictures of the Christ as he appeared in Kenya while also providing quotes and other documentation of his presence in the everyday world which commenced in 1977. Yet with all the signs, fulfillment of predictions and other evidence available, it is rare for the devout church goer even at this time of year to stop and consider or contemplate the possibility of the Christ being in the world. Instead it is often with anger that they reject the information. It is instead the few who have learned to think for themselves and who trust what their eyes see who stop. Religion is not what inspires them to stop though they may be religious. It is instead a heartfelt desire to see a better world based on every human being treated with respect and being provided with the basic necessities to survive. It it the openness to see the miraculous such as the 'star' that has been shining in the sky around the world heralding the return of the Christ. They are drawn to a message that the time has arrived for sharing of the world’s resources and wealth.

At this event booths that sell trinkets are often swamped. Yet a little booth that presents information on the physical whereabouts and priorities of the Christ is barely visited. Such are these times and neglect of the greatness that is within our midst.

[Vickers]

91. Wait...Christ has been walking around since 1977?

Who knew!

[alturn]

101. Yup - he's been here

The BBC in the late '80s even did a documentary but it was never shown. Instead 5 top managers got canned when they objected.

There is over 60 top journalists in the world who know the story directly but keep their mouth shut. We all know of the lies perpetuated on other stories by big media so on the biggest of all stories you cannot expect anything else.

As to religious organizations, none want their authority undermined by one who is integral in their heritage (see Enoch, Krishna (overshadowed disciple), Jesus (overshadowed disciple) among others) yet who is transcendent of their rules and regulations. "The Grand Inquisitor" by Dostoevsky sums up their philosophy.

So its up to you to research the clues, watch the sky for the 'star' heralding the Christ's return - or watch videos of it on you tube under searches such as 'miracle star'. The evidence is all out there. The addressing of the global public by the Christ would do more to advance what is considered the progressive cause than any other possible event so it's worth researching.

[Vickers]

135. "its (sic) up to you to research the clues" What a fucking cop-out.

Post some links (CREDIBLE links), or take your fairy tale nonsense elsewhere.

[RandomKoolzip]

95. Huh?

Seriously, I can't understand a word of what you wrote just now. Was this translated from some other language?

[alturn]

104. ok, simplified

When presented evidence which can be easily researched that the Christ is in the world, most Christians have zero interest in looking into it. Even during the Christmas season when there would seem to be a spike in interest in the story of the Christ there is no spike in interest by Christians to look into what has been made readily available on the subject. Instead they find it easier to cling to preconditioned belief systems which they have been indoctrinated into by the church. Hence the Christ can leave clues everywhere of his presence and still not be recognized.

It is said the rarest thing among humans is an open mind. On a subject such as the physical presence of the Christ there is very, very few who find the curiosity to find out if it is really true.

[bongbong]

127. I have heard the same thing!

Apollo, the son of God, has returned. He is living on the island of Santorini, going clubbing most nights, but waiting for a good time to show his face.

[madmom]

88. I raised both my kids the same way. The youngest is a non believer the oldest is in the

not sure column. My grand daughters on the other hand are now asking questions about how we got here and who was the first etc etc. The oldest grand daughter is very science curious, she's 8 going on 25. She ask me how the first person got on earth the younger one (5) said she knew "god made us". I ask her who told her that and she said mommy. So I went into the "well some people think that" explanation and they we satisfied (so far) with that. Now my question is..are there any good books on evolution that a 7 year old could read and understand?

[Jankyn]

90. Good on you.

I love the way you've made it clear that we don't have to agree to respect each other. It really opens up room for the kids to explore various ideas and then accept or reject them based on their own values. Very good parenting!

[DeSwiss]

92. K&R n/t

[Goldstein1984]

93. We incorporated religion into bedtime stories at an early age

Our children grew up thinking of all religion as mythology and fairy tales. We never drew a distinction between mainstream religions and "pagan" belief systems. ALL religion became just another bedtime story. We still have one of the books we used, "Old Tales for a New Day."

Now, at 25, 28 and 32, it's almost impossible to get our children to discuss religion in a spiritual sense. It just doesn't interest them. There were very few religious incidents when they were growing up, and I've always assumed it was because we neutralized the spiritual and emotional aspects of religion beginning at the cradle.

We ended up with three intelligent, independent children who question all authority and are raising their children the same way.

It may also have helped that I'm educated as a scientist, and that was the dominant culture in our home.

[me b zola]

94. K&R

[Ian David]

96. K&R

[ChiciB1]

97. Kicking For A Great Post. I Too Lived The Same Experience... Grew Up

in a VERY Catholic family, and was an Army brat! How I got to thinking as I do now was not easy, but if I'm not an atheist at least I'm agnostic!

My two children had the same experience as yours, but I simply told them they could chose what they believed in. My daughter believes as I do, my son believe in God, so he says but no longer goes to church.

I believe what I can SEE with my eyes and that's just a simplistic answer.

[DesertDiamond]

98. Wow! I really enjoyed reading this, so full of intelligent thought and respect for all!

You and your husband are AWESOME parents!

[ProudDad]

99. As for the "green food"

Try some of the recipes that have helped turn me from a hard core meatatarian into a mostly veggie guy...

http://www.tucsoncsa.org/recipes/

We're BIG fans of
Easiest Greens with Tortillas (replacing Tacos)
Arugula and Grapefruit Salad
Spaghetti Squash Lattkes! (an ABSOLUTE FAVE!)
Rice Pilaf with Dill (it's got a little green in it)
Curried Okra Stir Fry

And just about ANY greens sauteed in Olive Oil, Onion and Garlic with a sprinkle of Sesame seed oil and soy sauce...

Check and see if you have a Community Supported Agriculture operation in your town! There's nothing like fresh from the local farm and it serves as a great incentive to cook up what you get and reform your palette...

[Sal316]

100. Sounds like you're doing a great job!

That's the best way to raise kids...be honest with them and don't be afraid to tell them sometimes you don't know the answer.

Don't be afraid to tell them what you believe and what you don't. Anything else is hypocrisy, and they'll see right through it.

Absolutely.

[Swamp Rat]

102. The Flying Spaghetti Monster loves your son.

May sauce be upon Him. O8)

[jobycom]

105. I never had any troubles like that.

My spouse was raised without any religion. I was raised Catholic, too, and then Methodist, but have been atheist since my late teens. I was very devout when I was younger.

We never had much trouble raising our kids. We just didn't talk much about religion unless it came up, and then I was always respectful about other people's beliefs, as long as the beliefs didn't involve hatred. When they did involve hatred, I would say "That's a personal belief, that's not what all Christians (Muslims, whatever) believe." Some of our neighbors, no doubt trying to save their souls, took them to churches, but they never were overly interested. When my kids would ask about God, I would just say "I don't believe in God, but a lot of people do. You'll have to decide what you believe when you get older," or something like that. It never was an issue. My youngest told me once she believed in God, and I told her that was great, but she doesn't seem to still believe it.

When they ask about Christmas or Easter or about Islam, I tell them the traditional stories. I don't tell them they are true or false, unless they ask, and then I tell them I don't believe it, or even give them an historical lecture on how likely it was to have happened, or what might be behind the story. I do tell them the difference between Jesus and Santa Claus, so they understand that Christians believe in Jesus but not Santa.

On Heaven, I just don't say anything much. One of our dogs died recently, and my youngest told me she believed she would see her again in Heaven, and I told her "I hope so." When she's not in grief, I tell her I don't believe in an afterlife if she asks.

It's never traumatized either one. I've never tried to make them believe one thing or the other. It's just not much of an issue. They haven't had problems in school over it, and several of their friends are atheists, too. Maybe that's just Austin. I've had more problems with my older friends than they've had in their age group.

[rainlillie]

113. jobycom, I really enjoyed reading your excellent response.

My mom is a southern baptist and never tried to force her beliefs on my siblings and I. Both my hubby and I would never try to force our beliefs on our children. Following Jesus may not be the path for everyone, but that is the path for me. That doesn't mean that folks who don't seek that path or folks who are seeking a non-religious path are wrong. It just means they are practicing what works for them. My best friend is an Atheist and she has never tried to change my mind and I have never tried to change hers. My son is in college and has read the Quran as well as the Bible.

[Swampguana]

106. You did the right thing

Educate them on whats out there as unbiased as possible and respect what they choose.

[cachukis]

107. Kids are smart and early on need the truth.

[Spiderzumbie]

108. Glad to see your family is so open to other beliefs.

My family was nothing like that. If I questioned a single thing from the bible, my mother would refuse to talk to me for days.

I'm now somewhere between agnostic and a deist.

[AllyCat]

109. Thank you. We are in your boat at a much younger age and

trying to figure how to handle these things. We celebrate many of the holidays and talk about the meaning to us and to others, but we do not go to church except for the occasional trip 30 miles away to a UU church. My husband and I are both recovering Catholics and have different beliefs, but not in "a god".

I really like what you say about how things can be at sad times like a death or illness.

And the most resonant with me is your last statement that they are smart and will see through BS.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

112. Humans need light at the darkest time of the year.

Societies have always had celebrations at the Winter Solstice so they wouldn't get depressed. Simple psychological need. That's why Jesus, Mithra and Apollo all have the same birthday.

And Isaac Newton, who is arguably responsible for far more human progress than the three gods mentioned above.

I am an atheist and I celebrate a totally secular Christmas.

[Dappleganger]

116. Spirituality is a journey...

whether or not you choose to believe in something, changes over time. We all change over time, based upon the sum of our experiences and ability to perceive the world around us.

[Mhak]

117. You get a +1 from me

My mother crammed religion and church down my throat unmercifully, to the point that at the age of 14, I called the police to avoid going to church. She threatened to punish me if I didn't go, and I remembered recently learning in a high school government class that freedom of religion was a founding principal of this country. I literally called the police and said my mother was breaking constitutional law by forcing religion on me when I was unwilling.

True story. Good thing your kids won't have to go through that =D

[mascarax]

130. What did the police say?

Please finish the story! Thanks...

[TNLib]

122. Thanks for the advice

My situation is allot harder I have a very religious mother who lives in our house and spends allot of time with my child. I try to explain to my child who has just turned 8 that not everyone believes what her grand mother believes. My husband is also a christian but fortunately no one in our house attends church so I guess it could be worse.

[July]

125. Our family is much like yours.

We did try to tell our children the "Greatest Hits of Biblical Stories," since they are so prevalent in literature and in cultural references, but I'm not sure, now that our kids are adults, that they remember much beyond Adam and Eve and Noah.

Since both of us parents were raised as Catholics, we have had many moments of realizing that there are experiences we've both had that our kids know nothing about (Catholic school and all it entails, prayers in Latin, confession, and so on). On the other hand, because our kids' grandparents, aunts and uncles, and numerous other relatives are almost all Catholics, they have had to learn about respecting others' beliefs, and they have attended many a funeral Mass, unfortunately. I think it's been good, overall, that they've had that exposure, but I haven't enjoyed having my mother and a cousin mock my then 14-year-old for saying that he didn't believe in God, nor did I appreciate my mother's anger when my family made a lunch that included meat while we were staying at her house during Lent (she was not at home at the time, so we were not forcing her to eat meat).

It was disconcerting to me that some of our children's classmates were basically proselytizing at an early age -- e.g., asking our child if he believed in Jesus and telling him he would go to hell if he didn't. Our kids have occasionally had the same experience with a teacher.

We've always tried to make them understand that each person decides for himself, and that, therefore, they must respect others' choices without feeling required to participate in others' religious practices. We usually form the "Heathen Row" at the funeral Masses we attend, in that we do some of the standing and sitting but none of the kneeling or, of course, partaking of the Eucharist. It's tough when we're at a wedding where people join hands to pray, which makes us all uncomfortable. We don't want to disrupt others' prayers, but we don't really want to participate in them, either. We sit quietly with our hands in our laps till the prayer is over, but we sometimes get questioned afterwards. The hand-holding always seems to me a bit presumptuous on the part of believers, whereas a saying of grace without hand-holding allows all present to make their own choices.

I enjoyed your thoughtful post very much.

[teewrex]

126. Try explaining religion to your children when

one set of grandparents are muslim, one set belongs to a cult, the entire neighborhood are born agains and you are an atheist.

[pnwmom]

128. FYI. I don't know where your kids heard about Limbo, but it's not

part of Catholic theology anymore. Hasn't been for years.

[Old Troop]

129. I think what you have done is a miracle.

Sorry, I couldn't resist either!

[Greyskye]

131. The Golden Rule is how we raised our son.

In fact, he's had a framed copy of this above his bed for as long as I can remember:


I'm a secular humanist if you want big words, or an atheist if you want short ones. My wife is agnostic, and the 12 year old goes between calling himself a secular humanist and a Pastafarian - he's evidently been touched by His noodly appendage.

He certainly hasn't been sheltered from religion. We have multiple books on various religions in our personal library. We've taken him to a small number of variously flavored church services over the years. He went to Africa with a group of Christian teachers (and my non-Christian teacher wife) to start a Montessori school in an orphanage. (He had to explain to a number of the pastors on that trip what a secular humanist was on the multiple occasions that they tried to persuade my son to get baptized and convert LOL.) Almost all of his schoolmates are very religious.

The hardest part at this age is trying to make sure he doesn't offend anyone with his 12 year old attitude. Sigh.

We approached everything pretty much as you did, and it seems to be working out OK so far.

Great post, thanks for sharing.

[treestar]

132. Rec'd

You did a wonderful job of it. Your kids are lucky; a very open minded approach.

[bertman]

134. Great post, kag. Thank you. Too late to rec. nt