US Lies About N. Korea Situation?

[kpete]

US Lies About N. Korea Situation
By Rob Kall

The truth is, the US is holding war games with S. Korea, very close to North Korea (update: The war games are being held in an area that has long been under dispute, that N. Korea claims to be it's territory. Putting war ships there, in territory N. Korea claims to possess, is tantamount to declaring war.).
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101128/ap_on_re_as/as_koreas_clash
http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/11/24/us-carrier-heads-for-war-games-in-korean-waters/

That is why North Korea is responding... RESPONDING to having been PROVOKED by the US and S. Korea.

What are the reasons for such provocative action by the US?

The US military industrial complex sees the writing on the wall, that they're being targeted for 10-25% budget cuts and that Iraq and Afghanistan have lost their cachet as just wars with the American people. The rest of the world knows what a crock the claims that there are good reasons to be there are.

more:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/US-Lies-About-N-Korea-Sit-by-Rob-Kall-101128-682.html

..................

[spanone]

1. we are the united states of the pentagon

[Supersedeas]

37. Defense Contractors could care less how it gets starts, just so long as it gets going

[TheWraith]

2. Right, because the crazy people would never do anything irrational.

I'm sure that those fishing villages they bombed were an imminent threat to North Korea.

[Poll_Blind]

3. I think there are two sides to this one, definitely. The level of tension has always been...

...high and the insanely minor things that can turn into deaths are as absurd as they are frighteningly close to the surface.

If you do not know about it yet, you should read up on the Axe Murder Incident and Operation Paul Bunyan which followed it. Both North Korea and South Korea present a dangerous environment.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Hate to burst bubble but...

We have have these exercises every year, and every year N Korea throws a fit. This has more to do with succession and China has little control.

[Demstud]

12. Right

It's not a big secret and I don't recall any lie. It's fairly common and should not have provoked such a violent response. unrec.

[Kablooie]

22. Where's Wikileaks when you really need them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. So Assange told the north to go through it's annual meltdown?

Believe it or not some things do not happen on our calendar.

[ShamelessHussy]

5. that is the real question, why are we PROVOKING them now?

it is interesting that the leaks thing has seemed to completely knock it out the headlines... even the Chinese talk initiative :shakes-head:

[Catherina]

9. You know something's rotten when China says to resume the talks urgently

but the US and SK refuse.

[ShamelessHussy]

10. yeah, all kinds of red flags going off on this one

we are playing some hard ball right now, thats for sure, and it looks like we just told the world we will out every last one of them if they choose wrong in this grand game they are playing.

hi Catherina, :hi:

[Catherina]

11. Precisely

Hi ShamelessHussy :hi: Thank you for your diligent posts.

[malaise]

21. Ding ding

Olbermann sorted this out for me last week. He said sources said South Korea fired first. That little bit of information disappeared quickly.

[Igel]

25. It both vanished and didn't vanish.

Nobody says S. Korea didn't fire first. It did. Pretty silly to have artillery practice as part of military exercises without actually firing anything.

However, they were firing into the sea, not at what the S. or the UN considers to be N. Korea. N. Korea claims part of that sea but probably has relatively little population living on the waves. Their fishing boats seldom venture into that area, usually being turned back by the S. Koreans.

Olbermann did the usual "sorting out" by giving two facts that are marginally related but which allow the listeners to draw a false conclusion:

"N. Korea fired on S. Korea."
"There was an exchange of fire. S. Korea fired first."
Therefore, because the second statement only makes sense if it's relevant to the first, we assume--incorrectly--that it is relevant, causal even, and that S. Korea first fired on N. Korea. Therefore we assume that N. Korea was justified in killing civilians because it was responding to an attack.

In Olbermann's defense, he often says things that lead to the wrong conclusions in quoting others and raising questions. I prefer to believe that he really doesn't understand the usual rules of pragmatic inferencing and conversational implicature used by native speakers of English because he focuses too narrowly on the truth or accuracy of individual, isolated propositions and phrases and not how they cohere in a discourse. In other words, juxtaposed facts have no meaning beyond the disparate facts. (This is common in legal discourse and some political discourse but is an utterly false idea--it's state of the art c. 1830, which is where a lot of US legal thought is stuck.)

This kind of game commonly leads to charges of lying when we don't like the false conclusions that listeners are led into. * did this on occasion. There is no lie: The speaker doesn't state anything that he knows to be false, in fact the facts are usually true; the listener doesn't believe his conclusion to be false, although the conclusion he draws is false. "True implies false" is a false inference, however, and the inferencing is ours.

[Ozymanithrax]

6. And using artillery on civilians and murdering them is a diplomatic candygram. n/t

[Catherina]

7. Rec'd. Said the same thing earlier. Not a popular opinion... yet

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9642490

North Korea warned SK not to stop the military drills in that area. SK responded with a barrage of artillery fire, assuredly with our full support.


Maybe we'll change our tune in a few years like the WMDs, when it'll be fashionable to pretend to have known all along. :shrug:

[melm00se]

19. the initial

claim that South Korea fired 1st initially came from North Korea so they might have a slight conflict of interest.

The US and ROK run military exercises all the time in what still is an active war zone (the Korean War never really ended) and they are planned months in advance they aren't just turned on Tuesday in response to a Monday event.

[Catherina]

45. No. It came from South Korea. Quit falling for US propaganda

Sk fired artillery shells into NK's zone. This is the first time, since the 1950-53 Korean War, that North Korea felt so provoked that they shelled South Korean soil. Previous S. Korean governments fully accepted NK's claim to the same territory shelled by the South for no *apparent* reason on November 23rd. NK warned them to stop and they continued. South Koreans like playing war games. And guess who taught them. Three guesses and the first two don't count.

South Korea is so wrong that they don't even dare bring this to the Security Council where facts will be more scrutinized than in the Western media.

“Not only did South Korea fire the first shots at North Korea last week, today they "fired artillery shells by mistake...­..oopsies.­..."

http://eng­lish.yonha­pnews.co.k­r/national­/2010/11/2­8/63/03010­00000AEN20­1011280051­00315F.HTM­L

Then they tell the S.K's on the island to grab shelter 'cause the North might do something.­...could this be funnier?”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/JoePenn/us-south-korea-war-games-_n_788727_68930352.html

Here is yesterday's article about this latest, deliberately ignored provocation, from South Korean news, for the record, before everything gets deliberately muddied again.

S. Korean artillery mistakenly fired on DMZ PAJU, South Korea, Nov. 28

(Yonhap) -- An artillery shot accidentally fired by a South Korean army unit fell on the South Korean side of the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) on Sunday afternoon, military officials said.

No casualties were reported from the accidental discharge that occurred at around 3 p.m., the officials said. An artillery unit stationed in the border town of Paju, Gyeonggi Province, mistakenly fired a shell that landed near Daeseong-dong, a civilian village on the southern side the DMZ dividing the two Koreas, they said.

Nicknamed "Freedom Village," the Daeseong-dong village is inhabited by some 200 residents.

Military authorities were investigating the incident, officials said.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/28/63/0301000000AEN20101128005100315F.HTML

So many tool, advisors, training and weapons from the US and so many *accidents*. "Whoopsie" isn't fooling anyone.

[Lint Head]

8. Of course Haliburton and Xe/Blackwater are chomping at the bit for contracts.

Killing human beings is big damn business, power and money.

[tuckessee]

13. North Korea is bat-shit crazy therefore......

....anything we say is true and anything we do is justified.

That's the official line so don't deviate from it.:patriot:

[Ex Lurker]

14. Just because our motives haven't always been pure, don't assume the other side is always innocent

it's a tendency a lot of DU'ers have. North Korea is very capable of triggering an all out war quite without any help from us.

[Puregonzo1188]

15. It's obvious we baited them. However, they took the bait. Killing civilians is not acceptable,

however, we really need to stop provoking them with this stupid fucking war games that we so callously engage in without concern for the very real consequences they may have.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. You are aware they are annual events, noticed in accordance with international protocols?

[HEyHEY]

18. Stop letting facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory

[soryang]

29. Annual events, twice a year, that would make them...?

The exercises took place in March and now again in late November? What is your source for the term "annual event?"

[HEyHEY]

32. Really? that's the best you can do, arguing over his use of the word "annual"?

Are they, or are they not a regular occurance?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Actually last I looked at it, different things are practiced in the spring vice the fall

So yes there are annual fall exercises

[soryang]

42. And your source? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Various service papers at the time

It was a couple of years back, some of us were curious what was being practiced etc. It was covered, but not in extensive detail. Its also safe to assume that basic stuff like artillery practice is common to both seasons.

The key point is that these are regular events and properly noticed. Another thing that I have not seen brought up is that the NK army has the tools to know where the shells are headed once fired. To claim that they some how thought they were being attacked is beyond credulity.

[soryang]

46. No source then

I'm not surprised.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Like I said, it was a while back

Any of the major exercises get written up in the Army Times etc. Its a bit more work than Google if its important to you.

[soryang]

48. Unfounded

It is your contention, not mine.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. What seems to be your concern?

- That they do not occur annually?
- That their content is different between events?

That is pretty basic stuff for military exercises. The service oriented news outlets tend to cover at a high level participants and activities. Have a hard time seeing any of that as controversial.

[11 Bravo]

57. Sorry, this is DU, where any schmuck too stupid or lazy to use Google merely has to say "source?"...

and everything you have said is instantly debunked. Cute, no?

[HEyHEY]

17. Ya know, do these people forget about the missile tests and all this shit?

Suddenly every fucking thing in the world is the fault of the USA? Of course no other country, even those run by sadistic madmen, could EVER be in the wrong.

Not only that, if you had a hostile enemy on your border, you too would keep your military NEAR said border, even for exercises.

[Posteritatis]

20. Remember, only five percent of the human race is allowed to have agency of any sort. (nt)

[Phoonzang]

27. It's pointless. Don't bother to try and use reason to convince

people that maybe, just maybe this isn't the fault of the US and that some other country could possibly do something provocative and hostile.

The US must have bombed a North Korean orphanage or something...that's why the N. Koreans shelled a fishing village. I bet if I started a thread stating that, it would be all over DU in an hour.

[diveguy]

23. if i am not mistaken

didn't the little island get shelled a week before the washington battle group showed up?

[Lucinda]

54. I think your'e correct

[Common Sense Party]

56. And 46 SK sailors were killed a few months back.

If that wasn't a declaration of war, I don't know what is.

[WinkyDink]

24. What WAS that missile off the CA coast, anyway? Korean, Chinese, American? And the beat goes on.

[Igel]

26. Ah. A "Do you still beat your wife?" question.

Get the listener to believe your the presupposition by the way you ask the question. Most people aren't aware enough to find the problem and will try to answer the question.

In other words, when is an assertion not an assertion? When it's an embedded presupposition. You need to assume that the presupposition is true to understand the question, even if the presupposition is utterly false. But you need to go back and deny the presupposition if it's false--a step that often doesn't happen. Voila: The listener has assumed something to be true that isn't, and later may well use that presupposition as an assumption.

Native speakers know this happens and use it as a rhetorical device. But rhetoric is not logic. The goal of rhetoric is controlling the audience through emotion and "sleight of mind" in order to empowering the speaker; its goal is not establishing truth or empowering the audience. I rather think the latter is important.

[Renew Deal]

35. Thank you!

I'm glad someone still remembers.

[MilesColtrane]

28. The only dispute about that territory comes from the DPRK.

The North Koreans agreed to terms they are now dismissing out of hand. (see the Armistice Agreement below)

(b) Within ten (10) days after this armistice agreement becomes effective, withdraw all of their military forces, supplies, and equipment from the rear and the coastal islands and waters of Korea of the other side. If such military forces are not withdrawn within the stated time limit, and there is no mutually agreed and valid reason for the delay, the other side shall have the right to take any action which it deems necessary for the maintenance of security and order. The term "coastal islands", as used above, refers to those islands, which, though occupied by one side at the time when this armistice agreement becomes effective, were controlled by the other side on 24 June 1950; provided, however, that all the islands lying to the north and west of the provincial boundary line between HWANGHAE-DO and KYONGGI-DO shall be under the military control of the Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army and the Commander of the Chinese People's volunteers, except the island groups of PAENGYONG-DO (37 58' N, 124 40' E), TAECHONG-DO (37 50' N, 124 42' E), SOCHONG-DO (37 46' N, 124 46' E), YONPYONG-DO (37 38' N, 125 40' E), and U-DO (37 36'N, 125 58' E), which shall remain under the military control of the Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command. All the island on the west coast of Korea lying south of the above-mentioned boundary line shall remain under the military control of the Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command. (See Map 3).

What you call provocation is merely an attempt to keep them from repeatedly breaking the cease fire THEY SIGNED.

[soryang]

31. Er, the islands aren't in dispute it is the maritime border

...which wasn't determined by the Armistice.

[HEyHEY]

33. He said "territory" not "islands"

[MilesColtrane]

40. The Northern Limit Line was added to the Armistice by the United Nations.

North Korea recognized the NLL for twenty years and is now a member state of the UN. As such, it is obligated to abide by the cease fire treaty as written.

[soryang]

43. Wrong the UNC in Korea is not the "United Nations"

It is a US dominated organization and always has been. North Korea and China never recognized the NLL.

[MilesColtrane]

52. The UNC was created by the UN and is acting on its behalf.

The NLL wasn't challenged for twenty years. That is de facto recognition.

In the end it doesn't matter what North Korea says it recognizes, only that they abide by the cease fire.

Hell, North Korea doesn't recognize the right of the Republic of Korea to exist and claims to be the sole legitimate government of the entire peninsula.

[MilesColtrane]

41. Which is why firing on Yeonpyeong is a violation.

The UN, ROK, and US are being conservative in their response to this clear breach of cease fire.

[Dreamer Tatum]

30. Now I have truly seen it all. nt

[Renew Deal]

34. OpEd news is not news

Did the author bother to read the articles he linked to?

"South Korea also said it would continue another previously scheduled military drill set for a different part of the Yellow Sea, about 70 miles south of the disputed waters near Yeonpyeong. The Joint Chiefs of Staff said the military drill by the South Korean army, navy, air force and marines would continue until Nov. 30 as previously scheduled."

The "war games" are not being held in an area under dispute. They are 70 south of there.

The idea that NK is being "provoked" is bullshit trumped up by people more interested in ideology than the truth.

[HEyHEY]

36. It's trumped up by people

Who care more about slamming the USA more than actually knowing what's going on. In their bloodlust they absolve a bunch of complete psychopaths.

[Catherina]

49. WMDs in Iraq. Babies thrown from incubators! Will you ever care to learn? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. So OpEd news carried that too?

[HEyHEY]

58. Every situation is different

Iraq was horrible, all that stuff was illegal as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't mean that Kim Jong Ill isn't a dangerous lunatic.

[bigtree]

53. North Korea 'provoked' the U.S. by attacking our ally, South Korea

. . . not the other way around.
The 'war games' may well be provocative, but they are clearly a DEFENSIVE response to NK's aggression. I don't think Rob would support ANY flailing around of our nation's military, anywhere. But this conflating of NK's provocation and our defensive response isn't really a credible or constructive platform from which to argue all of that.

This almost belongs in the conspiracy forum.

[Common Sense Party]

55. Nice 180-degree BS spin.

Yes, North Korea is completely innocent, rational and sane. They have done NOTHING to provoke the world community.

And the Easter Bunny is real.