Another step in our march to totalitarianism: Christmas shopping under the watch of a K9 rent-a-cop

[Stinky The Clown]

One of our local malls is now being patrolled by a rent a cop with a rent-a-dog.

Don't mistake me for a dog hater. We have three, one of them a German Shepherd Dog with a bark that shakes windows. I think police dogs are tops. I love watching working dogs work. That's all beside the point.

How soon until we're asked for ID to get into the fucking mall?

This is all perfectly legal and reasonable. Nothing wrong with it. Just another bit of your dignity traded away for a show of force cloaked as being for *your* security. It is not. It is to protect the mall from *you*.

[greyl]

1. What do you have against blind rent-a-cops? nt

[uppityperson]

2. I don't usually shoot up malls, doubt it's protecting the mall from *me*

[Stinky The Clown]

4. You never know.

They may have some inside dope on you.

[niyad]

3. what is the rent-a-dog for? I mean, how do you train them to catch shoplifters?

[L0oniX]

48. The dog is there to snif your crotch for bombs.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Another step in our march to totalitarianism: Christmas shopping under the watch of a K9 rent-a-cop

One of our local malls is now being patrolled by a rent a cop with a rent-a-dog.

Don't mistake me for a dog hater. We have three, one of them a German Shepherd Dog with a bark that shakes windows. I think police dogs are tops. I love watching working dogs work. That's all beside the point.

How soon until we're asked for ID to get into the fucking mall?

This is all perfectly legal and reasonable. Nothing wrong with it. Just another bit of your dignity traded away for a show of force cloaked as being for *your* security. It is not. It is to protect the mall from *you*.

[Arctic Dave]

6. Must protect you from you.

Did anyone ask him WTF?

[RKP5637]

7. I was thinking when will body scans start for getting into a mall. n/t

[uppityperson]

8. Why the dupe?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9646759&mesg_id=9646759

[Stinky The Clown]

9. That's probably a good thing for you to ask at ATA.

"Why the dupe?"

How the hell would I know?

[uppityperson]

10. You posted the dupe at 8:25, this one @ 8:40, wondering why you repeated

the same OP 15 min apart. I am asking YOU because you are the OP. All ATA could say is "ask op, we can't read his mind".

[Stinky The Clown]

11. One is a dupe.

Is that hard to understand? Is that rare?

The OP is at a loss to explain to you why it happened.

The OP, actually, doesn't much give a shit why it happened.

The OP, actually, doesn't know why you care or why you chose to comment on it.

Why *did* you choose to comment on it?

Good gawd. Find something real to get yourself in a snit about.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

12. snit :eyes:? hahahahaha

*I* chose to comment on it because I wanted to know. duh. It seemed odd for you to post 2 of the same things 15 min apart. Some other posters do, but hadn't seen you so wanted to know.

You seem more snitted out than I do. Hugs to you

[Stinky The Clown]

16. You'll notice, as if by magic, the two threads have become one, thereby, I assume, .....

.... allowing you to rest easier this fine evening.

[uppityperson]

19. I was just wondering since you don't usually do this, if there was a reason

so sorry for asking and kicking the threads. Snit on. Or would it be snark on.

[Missy Vixen]

13. Gotta' stop those shoplifters

If I walked into a mall featuring a rent-a-cop and police dog, I would walk right out again, go home, order what I needed online, and write the mall management a letter re: why I won't be shopping there anymore.

I'm with you: It's a matter of time before any of us are asked for ID to get into a shopping mall or other retail establishment. One has to show a membership card to get into Costco, but I agreed to that when we got our first membership.

>Just another bit of your dignity traded away for a show of force cloaked as being for *your* security.<

We don't really need the Fourth Amendment, do we? It's inconvenient in a time of war.

:sarcasm:
:eyes:

[uppityperson]

17. couple articles about Bellevue Square/Northgate, area mall security.

Was thinking since you are listed as being in Duvall you might be interested. Interesting to see what they are/have done.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002636793_mallsecurity21m.html
http://www.seattlepi.com/business/389262_mallsecurity25.html

[RamboLiberal]

22. Good articles

Malls especially indoor ones are like small cities. None of us would blink if we saw police cars, officers on foot, K9's on patrol on a city street.

Malls attract the criminal as well as ordinary citizens who want nothing more than to do their Christmas shopping.

It's not like they are asking us to go through metal detectors or body scanners or pat downs to do our Christmas shopping.

In my area already there have been a couple of high profile shoplifting cases.

I have no problem with malls having private or police patrolling.

If you think it's the new totalinarism - shop online.

[uppityperson]

27. exactly. Thank you for putting it so well. Aside from that, shop local

one problem with shopping online, unless you look for local online. Keep the money and taxes in your community.

Or send it to me?

[Missy Vixen]

24. Thank you for the articles

I work at home, so if I have to make a trip to the mall, I'm there when they open during the week, get what I need, and get out. We're also doing our best to patronize smaller businesses or online. By the time we drive there and back, we've spent the S&H. Maybe I'm just paranoid, ;-) but we are making more and more of an effort to avoid large crowds of people now.

What do you think about what happened at Tacoma Mall?

[uppityperson]

26. I have an issue with Tacoma Mall, seems there are gang related things happening

in the area there every so often. It is out of the way for me so I can avoid it, feel uneasy about it anyway. I'm not sure if I lived in the area if I'd feel different, since I don't.

You can't stop everyone from doing something bad. Security helps, but can't stop everything.

[RamboLiberal]

14. I think you are way over the top with your complaining about

a K9 being a partner in patrolling your mall. They are not taking away any of your freedoms unless the dog smells or bites your junk.

Malls are private property so they can determine security level they want.

Malls are like cities - crime does occur. Guess you didn't read about shooting of 2 at a Detroit mall in the food court.

At at least one of our local surburban malls local police patrol inside in addition to private mall security. They even have a substation in the mall. And no, I do not consider it a dangerous mall or area though a shooting occured there in the past and there are crimes on occasion in the parking lot.

And maybe the K9 was in training - you know they do have to train the dogs to be safely around crowds.

Let me know when they show up with AR-15s or sub-machine guns.

On edit guess this is what you are complaining about:

A K-9 security team will be dispatched to patrol five Baltimore-area malls to beef up security at the properties, mall owner General Growth Properties announced Tuesday as the holiday shopping season gets under way.

The team of two German shepherds will monitor activity at Harborplace & The Gallery, Towson Town Center, White Marsh Mall, The Mall in Columbia and Mondawmin Mall.

While General Growth officials said no single crime or incident prompted the use of the K-9 unit, the new security plan comes after several high-profile crimes at Mondawmin this summer, including a robbery in which a gunman escaped with $100,000 worth of watches and jewelry from Elite Gold & Diamond.

Several area malls have enhanced security features in recent years by improving lighting and adding security cameras after crimes. A teacher was fatally shot in the parking lot of Towson Town Center in 2005, and Arundel Mills in Hanover has boosted security after several robberies.




http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-11-23/business/bs-bz-dog-mall-20101123_1_malachy-kavanagh-general-growth-properties-white-marsh-mall

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Wow. Thanks for that insightful lesson. I sure feel better.

[RamboLiberal]

20. If you are so pissed write the mall management

Though I think they won't give a crap.

Of course if you're mugged in the parking lot or otherwise harmed at the mall by a criminal then you'd be bitching they didn't provide adequate security.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Patrolling the parking lot is fine.

Lighting it brightly would be better.

Walking around inside with dogs gives a different image. It isn't one of Officer Friendly.

[RamboLiberal]

25. That K9 in the pic looked like Officer Friendly to me

I doubt the mall would take the liability issue of putting a K9 in that would bite an innocent shopper.

On edit.

It is a growing trend--or maybe a growling trend--in the retail industry. Officer Dan Mero and Bruno the Belian Shepherd are one of two teams patrolling five Baltimore-area malls. On Sunday, they were in Columbia.

"He was chosen because he has a temperament that's very good with all the people that we have here in the shopping center and the children, so it's a proactive measure to increase our public safety, and it's also very family-friendly," said mall spokesperson Katie Essing.

The teams receive a minimum of 300 hours training. As a part of an effort to make shoppers feel more at ease, patrons are encouraged to pet the dogs and trading cards with pictures are given to kids.

Lighting and cameras are also helping malls enhance safety features.

This is the first time General Growth Management has deployed K9s in this area, but they are already being used in Dallas, Los Angeles and San Francisco.

http://wjz.com/seenon/security.k9.2.2025952.html

Bet a lot of kids are having positive experience with these beautiful trained dogs.

[RamboLiberal]

28. If it was Bruno - he's a bomb sniffer

We don't typically see dogs at the mall, but now you may run into a k-9.

A police officer and his bomb-sniffing dog are patrolling area malls starting this holiday season. The program began in the Baltimore area on Black Friday. “Bruno” is trained to sniff out explosives, but shoppers also get a kick out of petting him.

"What we're trying to do is increase the presence of security in the mall and increase the customers feeling of safe and secure while they're here shopping," said Charles Crerand, GM, Towson Town Center.

“Bruno” will be rotating stops between Towson Town Center, the Mall in Columbia, Mondawmin Mall, Harbor Place, and White Marsh mall.



http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/state/k-9-is-roaming-area-malls-for-added-security

Is DHS not telling us something?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. What is the likelyhood of a mall rent-a-cop having a fully trained dog

or the resources to keep it that way, regardless of breed?

[Stinky The Clown]

42. Ask Rambo. Rambo has all the answers.

Anyone put off by this is an alarmist. Don't worry. This is all good.

[RamboLiberal]

44. If you read the article I posted you'll note Bruno belongs

to a public PD, not private security.

[Stinky The Clown]

47. You are so far beside the point that any further converstion is pointless

Talk about missing a point.

Who owns the dog is peripheral, incidental miscellany. That fact of *a* dog is closer to the point.

The point is about these growing shows of force in our daily lives.

Never mind .... I don't think you get it at all.

[RamboLiberal]

57. You sure can't stand that anyone disagrees with you

having your shorts in a twist about a mall adding K9 patrols to their security.

Again write the mall - be interested how they answer this stupid point of yours. Or write a LTE to your local paper instead of b*tching here.

[LanternWaste]

65. Then it's the image rather than the act that is taking away our freedoms?

"Walking around inside with dogs gives a different image..."

Then it's the image rather than the act that is taking away our freedoms?

[AngryAmish]

53. THe Mall Ninja strikes again!

<http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/>

[lib2DaBone]

15. It's all for your own good.. to keep you safe.... it's futile to resist the BORG....

.. shopping at the mall is a Privilege.. not a right.

You will submit to crotch inspections and oversight by rent-a-cops.

You must remember.. TSA is nothing more than rent-a-cops with a federal seal of approval.

[Tripod]

21. They are tap dancing all around us

I have been noticing more and more security every where I go. At what point is enough, enough. I don't really want to feel like I'm being watched while shopping for a pair of shoes. Next thing I know they will be pacing up and down at Olive Garden.

[sabrina 1]

29. Yes, and coming soon will be the very profitable Full Body Scanners.

Rec'd but it did not register. As the march towards totalitarianism continues, it is aided and abetted now by our 'team'.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Indeed. "Our team" is happy to make excuses

Don't worry. Be happy.

[Edweird]

30. Around the age of 30 I began to hate going to the mall.

That feeling gets stronger every year. They can have it.

[RamboLiberal]

31. I rarely go to the mall as well

Closest I come is the B&N bookstore outside the mall and even there I don't go as often since I read a lot online & have a Nook.

Except for one trip to pick up a few items on a weeknight I'll be completely avoiding the Xmas madness.

I buy about half my clothes online since I can get size I want easily and also buy many household items I need online since I can find exactly what I'm looking for quicker.

I'm at one of our indoor malls only a couple of times a year now. Just no attraction for me anymore.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. This will undoubtedly cause some incidents

- Some people are terrified of dogs
- Some people are allergic to dogs
- No defined standard of training (it could just be the rent-a-cops pet)

But the killer will be liability. It won't take more than a couple of incidents nationwide before the insurance underwriters make it too expensive for the mall to afford security dogs.

As for me, I will make sure I knock the pepper container off the table at the food court and then accidentally get some on me and over as wide an area as I can. Minor monkey wrenching...but its all I can think of at the moment. Should one get frisky with me, its not all that hard to kill a poorly trained dog, even without a weapon.

[uppityperson]

34. Throwing pepper on a dog is SUCH a progressive learn-ed thing oh professor

Are you seriously that scared of dogs? Do you carry a big jar of pepper whenever you leave the house, just in case a dog attacks you?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Who (outside of you) advocated throwing pepper on on a dog?

I don't attack those who do not attack me, which is what throwing it at the animal would be. Not sure how you could draw such a conclusion. I do have a bent towards monkey wrenching, which is all spreading a little pepper would be. You do understand the difference?

The vast majority of the time if there are problems with dogs it is due to their poorly trained owners. I have a hard time believing that a mall rent-a-cop has a properly trained dog, so I do see some credible risk.

I do not fear dogs since they are fairly easy to seriously injure or kill defensively. It does tend to upset their owners.

[uppityperson]

54. Then I was mistaken in how I took your post. My apologies.

I did not advocate throwing pepper on a dog. I used sarcasm. I am glad that is not what you were advocating

[TorchTheWitch]

37. all working dogs have to be certified

as well as their handlers. No mall would risk the liability of using an uncertified not adequately trained security dog for the very liability issues you describe. And no person can put themselves out as hirable for such a duty with an uncertified dog.

Although I dislike the use of such high level security in a mall, disparaging the handlers and canines doing the work is stupid and unwarranted.

I think they'd be useful outside the mall particularly after dark. Mall parking lots are plagued with all manner of criminality from drug dealing, purse snatching, vandalism, car theft, muggings, kid snatchings, etc. The number one place to steal a car in my area is the large mall parking lot and has been since the '80's when it was hugely expanded. Due to the lack of parking space most of it is garages that are badly lit as the huge lighting fixtures used out in the open parking lots can't be used within the garages. Even in a very well lit lot, when the mall lot is packed with cars it's far too easy for criminals to hide themselves between cars and do their mischief. And this is rather a wealthy yuppie suburb.

Twice I was nearly mugged in one of the garages that is closest to a large bar/restaurant in the mall. I've only been back a couple of times since and make sure that my friends are watching for me and meet me at the car when I pull in, and when leaving walk me out. One of my friends also almost got mugged when she went out to her car to get a birthday cake that was a surprise for one of the bartenders that we knew that worked there and was saved by a few guys in a group that happened to be leaving the bar and on their way to their cars... the cake was ruined though. I'd love it if they had a K-9 patrolling that particular garage.

I do see having the K-9's patrolling the interior of the mall where people are shopping as more intimidating than I see it being useful. I would think most people that saw them in the mall would think they were called in for a specific bomb threat, which seems to me would be something that would make shoppers want to run out the door. These K-9 units would be far better utilized elsewhere than private security inside a mall.

Pepper??? Ok, I'd laugh, but nevermind.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. In what jurisdictions and how is that enforced? What are the standards?

It fails the smell test (sorry could not resist) that a rent-a-cop in a shopping mall would have the resources to obtain and then maintain a professional level working dog.

Pepper has confused/waived off more than one untrained dog in my experience. Its a mild irritant that causes them to lose focus. It won't work on one with any serious training.

[RamboLiberal]

46. Bet the dog is better trained than most of the shoppers

This is getting to be one over the top thread. I can't believe you all with your shorts in a twist over a K9 patrolling the mall.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. You may lose that bet

Economics would indicate that there is little possibility the dog is trained to LEO standards

[RamboLiberal]

55. Bet mall payments to security firms may be a better revenue

stream than taxes. And their insurers would be damn nervous if the K9's are a risk. Private K9 training can be just as good as LEO.

K-9 security is a growing trend in the retail industry as mall operators have become increasingly concerned about crime. This is the first time General Growth has deployed K-9s in the Baltimore area, but the company has already installed K-9 units in Dallas, San Francisco and Los Angeles.

Many malls are turning to K-9 units because of declining respect for law enforcement and other authority figures among some young people, said Malachy Kavanagh, a spokesman for the trade group International Council of Shopping Centers. A canine provides an officer with more backup.

"Years ago you told somebody to leave and they would," Kavanagh said. "Today they may want to fight or argue. It's a badge of honor to get arrested. A dog barks and shows his teeth, and everybody quiets down."

The dogs receive hundreds of hours of training, and shoppers will be encouraged to pet and approach the canines. Trading cards with pictures of the dogs will be given out to kids, Essing said.

A survey by the trade group found that 69 percent of shoppers said they would feel more secure in a mall with a K-9 unit on patrol. Kavanagh said Americans have become accustomed to accepting "heightened levels of security" since the 9/11 terrorist attacks and other crimes.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/news/stock-alert/ggpw_twbc_k-9-unit-to-patrol-area-malls-1328861.html

Here's one companies training

The company recently launched its K-9 Security Services program to add another layer to the resources available to its clients. Chad DuBose is the director of K-9 Security Services and Training. A former U.S. Marine, DuBose has 13 years of military and law enforcement canine experience.

The company’s K-9 handlers and canines receive extensive training. Handlers are required to have law enforcement or military training with canine experience. The handlers must attend IPC’s training program, which includes instruction specific to the shopping center environment. They also go through training with their canine partner.

“This is not a situation where an officer checks out a dog for the day. The handler and the dog are certified as a team by a reputable and well-known training facility,” says Jonathan Lusher, executive vice president of special operations.

The dogs are trained before they are acquired and then they receive additional training that is more extensive than the training required for police or military canines. Canine training includes complete obedience, controlled aggression, and explosive detection.

The canine teams are certified through the Indiana Law Enforcement Training Academy and American Working Dogs for patrol and detection. Handlers and canines are also certified in explosive detection and controlled aggression tactics through the Vohne Liche training academy in Denver, Indiana.

http://www.shoppingcenterbusiness.com/articles/MAY08/story19.shtml

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. Problem is that rent-a-cops have already hit the bottom

Min cost every day. There are services that produce first rate teams, but are those the ones being hired for the local mall?

[LanternWaste]

66. I imagine that those two specific concerns are dealt with daily

"Some people are terrified of dogs
- Some people are allergic to dogs"

I imagine that those two specific concerns are dealt with daily by owners of assistance animals *seeing eye dogs, etc).

I certainly Hope nothing horrible happens because one person is blind and another allergic..

[ProgressiveProfessor]

68. Rights in conflict are always a problem

There seems to be a growing plethora of service and support animals these days. Like the rent-a-cop dogs, there is also a wide variety of training and in some cases they are controversial.

Some articles of interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/magazine/04Creatures-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2
http://scienceblogs.com/culturedish/2009/01/dojs_rationale_behind_banning.php



I'll stick to the easy issues like peanuts allergies...

[Chulanowa]

38. Wait... I'm in a bit of shock. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me...

that people still go to the mall to shop?

[pnwmom]

40. LOL. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Those teens with the red eyes at the Sbarro's Pizza kiosk are in deep, deep shit.

Dude!

[taterguy]

41. Mojo Nixon approves of this message

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAoh_yteKkc

[Jamastiene]

43. Ruh roh.

That gives a whole new meaning to "pat down." Instead, we'll all end up being sniffed in our crotches by various dogs with police badges. Come to think of it, I'd prefer that to being touch by a human who is a total stranger to me. :scared:

Still, I get your overall point. We are being "securitied" to death here. How long before we find a way to fight it. There MUST be a way to fight it, right?

[RamboLiberal]

45. Guess now you're not going to vote for Obama now

Cause under Obama your local mall is now patrolled by K9 cops.

Some of you need to take a breath.

[Stinky The Clown]

49. Calling all leftfielders. Leftfielders report in . . . .

You're out in the weeds there, bub.

So far off the point that you're not even on the same planet.

You make this about Obama. Good one. When all else fails, make it about Obama.

:eyes:

[RamboLiberal]

56. Nah just making fun of those who won't vote for Obama

Because horror of horrors the naked scanner & pat downs at the airport.

[Chulanowa]

60. "Another step in our march towards totalitarianism"?

DU seems to have become another bedraggled feather in Alex Jones' mardi gras hat

[uppityperson]

67. when in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!

[mtnester]

61. I now have a severe case of whiplash

if anything ever deserved a WTF..where did THAT come from, that is a prime example.

OH wait, talking about whiplash might become a discussion about healthcare, which then becomes a discussion about single payer, which then becomes a discussion about hatin on Obama..in the blink of an eye apparently.

Sheesh

[TransitJohn]

52. Why do you hate America and want the terrorists to win?

:sarcasm:

[JI7]

58. i really don't understand the complaint

what do you mean by the malls are protecting themselves against "you" ?

i do have a problem with the private security companies and do prefer public police deal with security in these places.

[earth mom]

59. Totally agree with you but I hate malls to begin with. Btw, it's cyber Monday today so let's

all hit the mall where it hurts! :evilgrin:

p.s I'd rather shop online or at small local shops. Better yet, give me a flea market or thrift store before anything else. O8)

[GoneOffShore]

63. Welcome to the land of the scared and home of the fearful.

Give us another year or so and we'll be as bad as the UK.

[LanternWaste]

64. There were rent-a-cops in malls in North Central TX in the early 80's...

There were rent-a-cops in malls in North Central TX in the early 80's.



"How soon until we're asked for ID to get into the fucking mall?"
Early 80's to late aughts is what, about twenty five years? So at this rate we'll be routinely showing ID to enter a commercial establishment in 2035, or thereabouts...?