Thus far, Wikileaks is a dud.

[ProSense]

No danger, no crimes, just embarrassing and/or private communications made public.

Leaks for entertainment and reading material? These are not the Pentagon Papers.

Would have been great if these actually revealed a crime, corrected a wrong or anything related to the Bush administration horrors. Embarrassment is a low bar for compromising foreign policy.

Transparency is a good thing, but foreign policy is not being conducted in an environment in which all parties value Democracy and transparency. If world representatives fail to show or believe they can't speak freely, that is not condusive to diplomacy. The world is not paradise, and there are people in it who don't trust each other and those who would do others harm.


Has all the information been released.?

[PeaceNikki]

1. No, they're going to be releasing it for the next few months.

It'll be a long and drawn out show.

[Subdivisions]

2. As per usual. n/t

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

4. LOL, pot meet kettle.

[Tunkamerica]

28. pedobear is your avatar?

[wellst0nev0ter]

51. Yes, He's Saying The Airport Pat-Down Artists Are Closet Pedophiles

One is free to agree or disagree with that assessment, but I don't think the avatar itself a strike against the poster.

[Tunkamerica]

67. i got the joke, i just wasn't aware 4chan had infiltrated the popular zeitgeist

[Codeine]

88. 4chan in general hasn't, but Pedobear certainly has. nt

[cutlassmama]

3. Just a bit at a time. Yawned at it too.

[Luminous Animal]

5. Only .0009 has been released.

So far, we've found out that the State Department spies on the U.N. (illegal), that their man in Honduras deemed Zelaya's overthrow was an illegal military coup and that the State Department did not follow through on their legal obligations to respond. And I found two tonight that show that the State Department is aware that Ahmed Wali Karzai is a drug trafficker. And I've only read about half of the 220 that have been released.

[rainbow4321]

14. Not to mention that every meeting between any US and ME official

always seem to lead to the Middle East official (insert any country here)all but begging for the US to take out Iran, one way or another. None of the ME folks wanna be seen as the bad guy so they turn to us.

Scary thing is, one of the US officials said in one of the meetings (paraphrased here) that POTUS feels it will be easier to sell Americans on having a THIRD war front if he has at least been seen trying to take the diplomatic route first. I'll have to look up the cable again but, yes, the US rep said the public display of diplomacy and sanctions were being used to make Americans eventually accept a third warfront.

THIRD??? THIRD???
Well, what the hell, let's just go for an even number, let's start a FOURTH front and go tap on NK's door!

[Billy Burnett]

78. Also not to mention the continued destabilization efforts in the LatAms.

For example, Hil's Dept of State communications acknowledged the Honduras coup and subsequent fake elections were illegal, but backed/funded them privately, while condemning them publicly.


Hillary Clinton expressing solidarity with illegally ousted Zelaya


Hillary Clinton expressing solidarity with illegally selected Lobo

[TexasObserver]

6. Hysterical.

The "ha-ha" hysterical, not the "boo-boo" hysterical.

You're trying to be funny, right?

[Canuckistanian]

7. Boy are you impatient

It's only been a few hours. And from what I hear, there's a ton more coming.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

12. From LBN

"No evidence that WikiLeaks releases have hurt anyone"

I'm not the impatient one, but nothing so far.

[Chulanowa]

44. And we have a right to know what our elected officials and their appointees are doing

Welcome to the United States, ProSense.

[ProSense]

53. Really?

Welcome to leaks for entertainment and embarrassment?

Assange is not an American.

[Chulanowa]

66. Yes, really

And I know he's not an American. he is providing a function beneficial to Americans, however, as well as citizens of the other nations involved.

You have a right to know what your government is doing. Period.

[karynnj]

77. We have a right to know what US policies are and understand the reasons

That is why both the Senate and the House have publicly viewable hearings on most issues. (here's the Senate site that archives them - http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/ ) You will notice that some are closed because they require a security clearance.

Here, there are two major problem independent from what may be in the information.

1) This is an enormous security failure on the part of the State Department. It is inconceivable given the sensitivity of their work that a PFC could download this huge number of cables, ranging over decades and covering various parts of the world. Where was their computer security? It is highly unlikely that he had a legitimate reason to access these - even for his own reading.

2) This will impact the willingness for leaders and others in foreign countries to speak frankly to American diplomats. That will be an enormous set back for the US.

To me, if the soldier has a political motive, I would suggest that it is more likely from the right than the left. The left favors diplomacy and these cables cripple diplomacy and provide fodder for people wanting to bomb Iran. (This morning, the morning bobblehead was already asking if Obama's policy towards Iran - using diplomacy - is a failure.) I think some here were too quick to equate him to Daniel Ellsberg, who did something very very different.

[Catherina]

9. Maybe for you. Plenty of great stuff in there about the duplicity of this administration

The fact that America's diplomatic corps is servicing the needs of the CIA is far from a dud. But sorry, can't chat. There are so many more cables to read. The one about the recent coup in Honduras is particularly interesting.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Really?

When Lanny Davis showed up supporting people around the coup, you didn't suspect that public pronouncements were being a little theatrical?

[Catherina]

15. It's a matter of vindication, seeing certain things in black and white.

The coup against Zelaya stunk to high heaven from the beginning.

Now we can use these facts without accusations of being conspiracy theorists and making stuff up.

[ProSense]

18. Who is being vindicated?

The Honduras stuff is subject to interpretation, but it's hardly anything damning.

[EFerrari]

21. Just a destroyed democracy, some tortured and dead people, nothing big.

Priceless. You outdo yourself.

[ProSense]

25. Who or

what spell it out

"Just a destroyed democracy, some tortured and dead people, nothing big."

[Luminous Animal]

26. Our Ambassador in Honduras did not feel it was open to interpretation.

In fact, his cable is titled, "OPEN AND SHUT: THE CASE OF THE HONDURAN COUP"

"The Embassy perspective is that there is no doubt that the military, Supreme Court and National Congress conspired on June 28 in what constituted an illegal and unconstitutional coup against the Executive Branch... There is equally no doubt from our perspective that Roberto Micheletti's assumption of power was illegitimate."

And like I said on the other post about this, as a result of this illegal military coup, the U.S. was legally bound to immediately withdraw aid. The State Department officially and illegally refused to characterize the coup for what it was, let military aid continue and supported, nearly alone in the Western and Latin American world, the illegal elections that ensued.

[ProSense]

30. He called off the agreement

that was back in 2009. That is not a surprise. It's more details, but not a surprise.

There are a trail of news reports from the hestitation to the declaration, sanctions and deal to Zeleya backing out of the deal.

[Luminous Animal]

42. I don't know why you are so fixated on "surprise" or "smoking gun"...

First of all, Zelaya never should have been pressured by the U.S. to take part in any deal making. Second, there is iron-clad proof for the citizens of Honduras and those of us around the globe who supported them, that the state department, led by Clinton, left them at the mercy of a brutal dictator and that the U.S. Government not only gave that dictator legitimacy by passively allowing him to hold illegal elections but funded his regime, as well.

Finally, there was no declaration. The U.S. Department of State has never officially declared that the overthrow of Zelaya was an illegal military coup.

[ProSense]

46. That is

a judgment call, but it's hardly criminal. Again, this only confirms what people believed to be the case.

[Luminous Animal]

55. The State Department confirmed that it was an illegal military coup. It is there in black and white.

Clinton refused to publicly categorize it as such. Her refusal legitimated a brutal regime. And that is the crux of the criticism. It is a vindication, though cold comfort, to see it confirmed.

[ProSense]

60. The memo is there

Clinton's reason for making the judgment call are not, but again others were challenging the State Department's position.

[Luminous Animal]

62. The official State Department cable never saw the light of day until today.

Its inclusion in the public sphere at the time (otherwise known as transparency) would have given advocates of Honduras ammunition at an earlier date to perhaps affect a change of history.

Clinton was given ample opportunities to explain her "judgment call" and she refused. What was hidden from the U.S. public was relevant information from her own department to nail her on that "judgment call."

[jberryhill]

70. No, one person IN the State Dept. stated their opinion that it was

I'm sure many others share that opinion.

But thats very different from the assertion above that the US was "behind" the coup, or that one person's opinion is that of the entire department.

[de novo]

81. They are fixated on a smoking gun because anything but (they believe)

can be spun away. Just like the bushies would dodge and deflect until there was an actual 'smoking gun'. Of course the Dems in Congress were never curious enough to follow the threads to find the smoking gun.

The OP seems to suggest unless a crime is outright admitted to in the leaks, there is nothing more to see, move along good citizen.

[ProSense]

16. Looking forward to the books?

This is a big yawn so far. Interesting? There'll be stuff in the news tomorrow completely unrelated to Wikileaks that will be interesting. Again, this is not the Pentagon Papers, at least not yet.

[Catherina]

24. Secretary of State Clinton ordering US diplomats to steal credit card numbers and DNA samples

Secretary of State Clinton ordering US diplomats to steal credit card numbers, DNA samples, passwords and personal encryption keys from UN officials, specifically "representatives of the security council", makes you yawn? That's theft and as illegal as shit by the way. The "representatives of the security council" aren't going to take very kindly to being set up for blackmail. Blackmail to do what? War with Iran?

Embarassment in front of your elite peers is karma in action.

You yawn? :rofl: Yawn on. You'll be yawning for a long time because the revelations are gonna keep on coming, for a long time.

[ProSense]

27. Really?

What's going to happen? It's embarrassing. Will it be a problem for Hillary's credibility? Probably, but if it's not a crime and business as usual, it's a big yawn. Spying isn't a nice business.

[Luminous Animal]

33. Actually. Clinton, in these cables is admitting to a crime. It is illegal to spy on U.N. members.

[ProSense]

38. Is it enforceable?

Is it something that no one suspected was taking place?

Will she be brought up on charges?

We'll see if she resigns or is charged.

[Luminous Animal]

58. It won't be enforced but our republic, our nation of laws, only applies to the governed...

not those who govern.

But, it doesn't make her actions any less illegal.

[jberryhill]

71. Under what section of the US code?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Check out these two...

http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2009/10/09KABUL3068.html

"The meeting with AWK (Ahmed Wali Karzai)highlights one of our major
challenges in Afghanistan: how to fight corruption and
connect the people to their government, when the key
government officials are themselves corrupt. Given AWK's
reputation for shady dealings, his recommendations for large,
costly infrastructure projects should be viewed with a
healthy dose of skepticism.... We will
continue to urge AWK to improve his own credibility gap as
well as that of the GIRoA."

And this in which the State Department pretty much admits that they know Karzai is a drug trafficker.
http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10KABUL693.html

"Drug Trafficker: Where is the Polygraph?
----------------------------------------

¶7. (S//Rel NATO, ISAF) Unprompted, AWK raised allegations of
his involvement in narcotics, telling the SCR that he is
willing to take a polygraph anytime, anywhere to prove his
innocence and that he has hired an attorney in New York to
clear his name.

...

AWK was eager to engage and rarely
stopped talking in the two hour meeting. While he presented
himself as a partner to the United States and is eager to be
seen as helping the coalition, he also demonstrated that he
will dissemble when it suits his needs. He appears not to
understand the level of our knowledge of his activities, and
that the coalition views many of his activities as malign,
particularly relating to his influence over the police. We
will need to monitor his activity closely, and deliver a
recurring, transparent message to him of where are redlines
are and what we expect of him in the months ahead."

[ProSense]

20. Interesting

reading. Again, nothing earth shattering. A lot of people already believe Karzai is corrupt, even people in government.

This is the problem with this dump, it's a lot of unrelated stuff that gives a little insight into a lot activities. No smoking gun. The fact that none of it relates to war crimes and the biggest blunder of the last decade is even more yawn.

[Luminous Animal]

31. I must have missed the headlines where the State Dept, admitted that Karzai is a drug trafficker

but we were going to give his trucking company military contracts anyway.

And we don't need any more evidence of war crimes being committed. The perpetrators admit it in their books and interviews and this admin's DOJ does nothing.

[ProSense]

40. Well

his brother has been linked to the drug trade. A lot of people believe Karzai is corrupt.

[Luminous Animal]

45. The brother, Ahmed Wali Karzai is the subject of the cables that I linked to.

He is the drug trafficker who is receiving U.S. military contracts.

[ProSense]

49. Right, this has been in the news

for years

[mia]

56. Official Warns about Tsunami of Drug Plantation in Afghanistan in 2011

Official Warns about Tsunami of Drug Plantation in Afghanistan in 2011

TEHRAN (FNA)- A senior Iranian anti-drug official warned the US and western countries to take rigid efforts to combat drug production and trafficking in Afghanistan, saying that the country will witness a remarkable increase in the production of illicit drugs next year due to the current surge in the price of narcotics....

Iran lies on a major drug route between Afghanistan and Europe, as well as the Persian Gulf states. Since the 1979 Islamic Revolution, the Iranian police have lost more than 3500 of their personnel in the country's combat against narcotics.

During the past Iranian year (ended on March 20,) Iran seized more than 1,000 tons of opium smuggled from Afghanistan, the largest producer of opium poppy in the world.

According to official estimates, Iran's battle against drugs cost the country around $1 billion annually. Strategies pursued by Tehran include digging canals, building barriers and installing barbed wire to seal the country's borders, specially in the East.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8908171501

[Luminous Animal]

59. And yet he still receives military contracts. The cables are yet another piece of the corrupt puzzle

The fact that State Dept. officials give him the time of day in 2010 just reinforces how amoral we are.

[PBS Poll-435]

10. K&R

This seems more like someone unloading 20 years of 'Highlights for Children' on to the public.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. No, there's more coming for a few Sundays yet.

I've seen lots of confirmation of things I already suspected, and some eye-rolling stuff (like Joe Lieberman telling UAE officials in 2007 that Plan B in Iraq was to make Plan A work). But the most startling thing I've seen is a claim by some Arab official that Hamas would accept the 1967 borders with Israel, but couldn't say so aloud.

Cables concerning China are next week, I've been assured. If it's a lot of "China is manipulating its currency" and "propping up North Korea" and "talking to Iran", it may be disappointing again.

[LAGC]

19. Wow, that's interesting about Hamas.

That could undermine Israel's position of dealing with them as a terrorist organization, when its clear that they are willing to compromise.

[nemo137]

23. Right, but there's the part about "can't say it aloud."

It does no good for the Hamas leadership to be willing to go with the 67 borders if they're not going to say it either in public or at the negotiating table. My take on what I've seen so far is that it's nothing really major - Arab regimes are uncomfortable with Iran, and friendlier to the US than they want to admit to their people. It's a huge trove of information, but there's nothing really explosive in it.

[Ramulux]

22. Are you joking?

Having American diplomats admit that Saudi Arabia is the largest sponsor of terrorism in the middle east isn't a big deal? You do realize that they are our biggest ally in the region besides Israel? Admitting that one of our biggest allies is also supporting Al Queda is a huge deal and will change the way we look at the middle east forever.

Seriously dude, everything that was released today will have serious repercussions across the world, maybe you should go over what was released again. Calling Medvedev the "Robin" to Putin's "Batman" is a huge insult, that alone would be a big deal let alone everything else.

[Catherina]

29. It's major damage control

as if spinning on DU is going to guarantee members of this administration a less than chilly reception from their elite peers now that they've been exposed.

Those guys aren't stupid. They know we were laying the groundwork to either frame "representatives of the security council" on false charges or blackmail them, possibly into war with Iran.

[ProSense]

36. Can you make an argument without personal callouts? n/t

[Catherina]

There. Removed your name. Happy now? Goodnight n/t

[ProSense]

34. No, but

"Having American diplomats admit that Saudi Arabia is the largest sponsor of terrorism in the middle east isn't a big deal?"

Follow the money (Scroll down to Kerry's letter on Saudi)

News, hardly.

[mia]

37. Arab leaders implored U.S. to attack Iran!

Iran 'must be stopped': Arab leaders implored U.S. to attack, WikiLeaks disclosures show
Diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks show Saudi Arabia and Bahrain as among nations strongly urging the U.S. to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities. The cables reveal the fear of Iran in the Arab world.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-wikileaks-iran-20101129,0,4288707.story


Didn't some Saudi Arabians also have some influence on 9/11 and the subsequent attack on Iraq?

[elana i am]

39. are YOU joking?

everything i've read about this wikileaks stuff could be considered standard operating procedure both for the US and for the other nations involved. so far nothing has been a surprise or a revelation to me.

so far it's a snooze.

[Confusious]

47. Knew that

Even without wikileaks.

[hughee99]

48. While it's bad for it to be admitted by US diplomats

neither of these things is news to anyone.

[AndrewP]

84. I agree, it IS a big deal.

[ConsAreLiars]

32. Tossing out many contradicting talking points seems to be a favorite tactic of

those who want to bury the substance of any revelations about how power works.

The info causes lives to be lost!
Treason!
Totally pointless and nothing new!
Embarrassing the powerful hurts national security!

Nice new variant to add to your resume.

[elana i am]

41. except is any of this revelatory?

not to me.

[Luminous Animal]

50. Why this fixation on relevatory? Does everything have to be a car chase or a shoot out?

There is a lot of info in these 220 documents alone. That is only .0009 of the documents yet to be released.

When the warmongers start shaking their sabers against Iran, I think there is enough info in the cables that we can righteously respond, "Let the Saudis send their own sons and daughters to fight their own fucking war."

[ProSense]

43. Information can

offer nothing new and damaging and still compromise the identity of operatives.

There is nothing contradictory in believing that the goal of such a leak should not be embarrassment. That is why the information is all over place.

An identity is separate from the information's value to the American public. Revealing someone's identity just to prove the U.S. is engaged in spying isn't of much value.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

54. Typical non response. n/t

[ConsAreLiars]

63. Yes, you captioned characterized your reply and usual practice quite well (nt)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Yeah. That's why our "transparent" government is trying to quash it.

And, the revelations are being reported worldwide.

[ProSense]

61. Governments

tend to do that when it comes to leaks.

[leveymg]

64. The Guardian explains that these cables are not the Top Secret ones that would reference that

These are just the ones that any U.S. enlisted soldier with a thumb drive and a Lady Gaga DVD/R can access at work.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/how-us-embassy-cables-leaked?intcmp=239

Intended to be read by officials in Washington up to the level of the secretary of state, the cables are generally drafted by the ambassador or subordinates. Although their contents are often startling and troubling, the cables are unlikely to gratify conspiracy theorists. They do not contain evidence of assassination plots, CIA bribery or such criminal enterprises as the Iran-Contra scandal in the Reagan years, when anti-Nicaraguan guerrillas were covertly financed.

One reason may be that America's most sensitive "top secret" and above foreign intelligence files cannot be accessed from Siprnet, the defence department network involved.

Now, THOSE would be interesting reading. Most of this just confirms what many of us have suspected, such as King Abdullah and Netanyahu want the United States to start World War IV by bombing Iran.

[lamp_shade]

65. K&R. They must be saving the best for last because so far... nothing.

[TexasObserver]

68. Thus far, your attempts to discredit the leaks is a dud.

Do you ever disagree with the official government position on anything?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

72. "Man Robs Convenience Store, Leaves With Five Dollars"

When you read that headline, do you think a crime has been committed?

Was it a crime of great impact?

[Skidmore]

73. I've been thinking the same thing for the past couple of days.

These are not the Pentagon papers. And, would someone explain to me how exactly this is supposed to end wars? It seems to me to be adding fuel to the fire. Do people honestly think that a "shame, shame" will end these wars? Vietnam was the glowing tip of an otherwise cold war...a proxy war on foreign soil. The difference now is that there was engagement on our own soil and people have not forgotten it nor do they feel less fearful. Unless these people have information to release showing that Al-Quaeda is currently funded by the US to attack us or another nation, then this is a wash. In the meantime, the world hangs by a thread, fragile and ready to explode. Let's just help it along. How exactly is this a heroic act and this man a hero.

[jefferson_dem]

74. "These are not the Pentagon papers."

Indeed. Far from it, actually. There's a reason why Reporters Without Borders strongly condemned WikiLeaks in August for it's "highly irresponsible" and "dangerous" document dump and argued that it set a poor precedent for the future of internet transparency and the internet. Julian Assange is like the Jerry Springer of whistleblowers. All seamy sound and fury.

[ProSense]

75. Giving whistleblowers a bad name

Steve Benen

<...>

Plenty of other revelations, meanwhile, are rather startling. While details will likely be coming out for weeks as more people are able to go through more materials, it's already surprising, for example, to see how many foreign governments, including the Saudis, have been supportive of a U.S. military strike on Iran.

I'm not convinced that the release of these secret materials -- some have begun calling it "Cablegate" -- will be too devastating international diplomacy, though it certainly makes the State Department's work much more difficult, especially in the short term. I don't doubt that foreign diplomats will be reluctant to engage their American allies for a while, which may very well undermine U.S. foreign policy, but we're still likely talking about bruised feelings and hurt egos, not blockbuster secrets from around the globe.

I would, however, like to know more about the motivations of the leaker (or leakers). Revealing secrets about crimes, abuses, and corruption obviously serves a larger good -- it shines a light on wrongdoing, leading (hopefully) to accountability, while creating an incentive for officials to play by the rules. Leaking diplomatic cables, however, is harder to understand -- the point seems to be to undermine American foreign policy, just for the sake of undermining American foreign policy. The role of whistleblowers has real value; dumping raw, secret diplomatic correspondence appears to be an exercise in pettiness and spite.

I've seen some suggestions that diplomats shouldn't write cables that they'd be embarrassed by later if they were made publicly. I find that unpersuasive. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in the nuances of on-the-ground international affairs, but I am comfortable with the notion of some diplomatic efforts being kept secret. Quiet negotiations between countries can lead, and have lead, to worthwhile foreign policy agreements, advancing noble causes.

If the argument from the leakers is that there should be no such thing as private diplomacy, they'll need a better excuse to justify this kind of recklessness.

[Bluerthanblue]

79. you said what I've been feeling and thinking better than

I ever could.

THANK YOU Skidmore-
wish I could K&R your reply-

This latest 'release' and the media blitz accompaning keeps bringing to mind the "starr report"-

[lunatica]

76. You read all of them in just two days?

You must be awesome!

:sarcasm:

I guess you consider spying on the UN officials is OK if we do it. In spite of the fact that it's against UN and international laws. Getting their DNA, eye scans, credit card information etc., along with the same Businesspeople in Africa is OK huh? Letting Yemen claim our drone attacks were their idea is just too ho-hum, right?

[UTUSN]

80. K&R all the way up to "0". n/t

[de novo]

82. I understand. If a smoking gun, plain language crime isn't revealed, you

think you can spin it all away.

[ClassWarrior]

83. Thanks for trying to gloss this over, Mark. I've learned more about the crimes...

...being perpetrated by reading this one thread than I've learned anywhere else!

Way to fail! :thumbsup:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

86. .

[ClassWarrior]

87. .

[Scurrilous]

85. K & R

:thumbsup:

[LostInAnomie]

89. Whatever! I needed to know about Gaddafi's big boobed nurse and that Prince Andrew...

... is an asshole!

Yeah, so far, they are pretty lame.