Workers and class

[nadinbrzezinski]

and I know that workers need to develop a sense of class... and act as one, or they will be walked over repeatedly. In the US organizing is seen as something alien, almost something furiegners do.

So we are getting to the point, well past the point, where workers stand up. and REFIGHT the battles of the past, or next stop will be survival wages, if we are lucky, and dawn to dusk work days. Yes dear we are going back to the early 19th century.

So get your head off that RW memes you are repeating and read a few books. Start with "There is Power in the Union," recent book

http://www.amazon.com/There-Power-Union-Story-America/dp/0385526296

You could also read on the Past of the Labor Struggle and realize why May Day IS a very American holiday... google Haymarket affair... and realize we either fight. or I hope you do not mind having kids working at your shop. I mean they are really cheap, and can fit in places adults can't... assuming you do both the design and the installation. Just remember, to work those kids until they are exhausted, and school... snort... they don't need no stinking school. And that is where the RW wants to take this country to... and where you, not having a clue about class solidarity, are helping them. I don't blame you... just the propaganda machine. and the destruction of the working class runs apace. next objective the civil service corp... I mean cronies would be so much better.

(This was in a thread, but... this is what is really going on, and time is running out)

[FreakinDJ]

1. Workers need a "Voting Block" like AARP

No real affiliation to either party just the issues and voting record of the candidates

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. That comes later

first you need to develop that sense of class... of we are in this together.

In the US it is MOSTLY GONE.

[Atticus]

3. K and R. Decent wages, safe workplaces, overtime pay, the 40 hour week---none of these was GIVEN.

They were TAKEN---by working men and women who risked their lives and faced down hired goons, dogs, and all of the government opposition money could buy to force these and other concessions from the same moneyed elite who are now trying to revoke the social contract that produced the most successful middle class the world has ever known.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. When we are now hearing rumors of 10 hour days

for pilots, it is a bad thing. Of course some folks go, com'on I got it just as bad.

No, could be much worst. And that is where we are headin'

[DonCoquixote]

5. Can you define "working class?"

Some only define it as poor, some include small businesspeople. Sorry to say, a lot of Marxists never were that clear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Actually it is quite simple

do you work for a salary, no matter wether it is blue collar or white collar?

My other break would be, since many fund managers work for a salary, technically is also income.

I'd say 100K is the real upper range of working class.

As to Marxists, well truth be told Smith was not clear about what is a capitalist either... and both are ideal systems that do not work as advertised. The best really is a mixed economy. But we are not getting that right now. And what we are getting right now is not capitalism either. But monopoly economy, which Smith was highly critical off by the by.

Oh and Karl was very clear as to what he meant as a proletariat... to him it was the factory worker...

[DonCoquixote]

7. Which is why

it gets confusing, as he called for a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Does that make technicians and teachers second class citizens?

This may seem pedantic, but if you want to convert people, you need to define your terms. Not blaming you for it, indeed, the modern left will probably do a far better job of defining things than marx ever could.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Have I said I am a Marxist? I have no idea where you got that

but as a DESCRIPTION of 19th century economy, and how it worked, like it or not Marx was good.

And no, he did not make techs or teachers second class citizens. In fact they WERE part of the proletariat too. The class that made the workers aware of their status and their rights.

In fact, University Professors were part of that class of the middle class that led the fight, the middle class, the educated youth. Of course that wasn't Marx, snort... really people need to read some history. And not just furiegner history... at one time the heroes of the labor movement were well HEROES in the US... I bet you have no idea what Haymarket was all about...

Now does the term worker solidarity scare you? Is this what this is about?

Hate to point this out, but this is not a capitalist system either... now go on you little consumer. you have gifts to buy and debts to get into.

[DonCoquixote]

9. Excuse me

I asked an honest question about what other have said, along with a statement that I did not blame YOU for it, but that OTHERS did not do a good job. But yet, you seemed to snap on me, despite my attempts at a disclamier. Can anyone ask questions without getting their head bitten off on this board, or cute snark?

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Excuse me but you implied something

And in that snark there is an explanation.

BOTH Capitalism and Marxism ARE ideal systems that can and have never came to fruition.

And I told you how it works in the real world.

Americans and that is a high dose of propaganda, cannot read words such as Worker and solidarity without going to Marx... well they should go to Eugene Debs... and other AMERICAN heroes of Labor.

[DonCoquixote]

11. But you needed the snark, right?

If that is how you treat people trying to ask a question, then you might not get too many points across.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. In this place, snark is the way it is

read the OP though. there is a good book to read there.

[tavalon]

13. This is some really valid discussion

and I know that I'm scared. I think you are too. But jumping down each others throats isn't going to get the revolution going. TPTB have a million ways to keep us fighting with one another. If someone hits you with snark, I would ask that you return with continued conversation and ignore the snark. This isn't a zero sum game and the snarker isn't any closer to being right than the grumpy snarkee.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Problem is that some people repeat propaganda

And don't want to hear otherwise. As to the cusp, I am sure there are plans in place, but history will go very differently than they plan...it always does.

[DonCoquixote]

18. Snark was never meant

I made a point in my reply not to blame her for the fact that terms thrown about are not well defined. Yes, I said marxist do not define it well, but only because many of them disagree and will give five answers to the same question. I am still sore about getting jumped just because I asked to define a term like "working class." I still stand by the point that snark will just make people not listen to you.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

19. an attempt at a simpler definition

Do you have the power to hire and fire? Or really any significant say about how your workplace is run? If not, you're a worker.

It's about ones position in labor, not how many tv channels or useless commodities you can afford. If there's going to be real class consciousness, it's going to revolve around simple and hard facts about the way society is organized.

[DonCoquixote]

20. Thanks

For keeping things simple and not going on tangents.

[blindpig]

21. Nope

Management is working class too, however well compensated, however compromised, if they are salaried. Those big boys(and big girls) who receive stocks as part of their compensation are in a hybrid situation.

If one subsists upon the labor of others, ownership without labor, on the proceeds of stocks and bonds, then one is of the owner or ruling class, the rest of us are workers.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

22. re

Management isn't ruling class, obviously. But for purposed of organizing labor and building class consciousness, they are not workers.

I wouldn't know about stocks and stuff - me and my friends are still in the service industry for the most part, where a manager enforces the ruling class.. The people who have continually played games with me, my wife's, my friends work hours? Threatened to take away insurance of friends with medical conditions? Not talk even start on dignity? They've made their decision to work on the side of management. I'm all for a nuanced position and accepting that individual managers might have sympathies with workers. I'm not for ever letting them be in my union or in my consciousness.

If things are working different different places, I don't know. I can only base my experience on my experience, food service, menial clerical work, hospitality.

But let me ask you this then: If management isn't producing anything of value, are they not just subsisting on the labor of those who are creating value? Even if they have a job, they are only getting paid with money made from the people actually creating value.

[blindpig]

23. They are working

Although we may not care to recognize it management is work, it is just greatly overcompensated. But the nature of this work in Capitalists society, enforcing the class war of the owners, makes them scabs in regard of labor relations.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

24. yeah, i can agree to that

They are working and they depend on capitalists to live their lives. I would say that the onus is on them though to see themselves as workers, and to recognize which side of the class struggle they are on. For purpose of organizing and regaining class consciousness they are in a murky position. In a future time where the working class is organized, it could very well be that most management types would recognize which side they are truly on. But I don't think that the working class needs them to be successful in organizing. If management comes to see themselves as working class, it will be because it is beneficial for them to realize that that is their role in society. At present, many prefer to see themselves as having more in common with capitalist than workers, because it is more beneficial for them to suck up to bosses. I look forward to a day where they might define themselves as workers, but there is a lot to be done before organizing management within labor happens, since most people who are very clearly workers rarely are even aware of what that means.

[asdjrocky]

15. And while you're reading that...

Look into the Ludlow Massacre and the Colorado Coal Wars, it's the same as it ever was when it comes for fighting for our rights.

[blindpig]

16. The Old Man ain't dead, he's just been sleeping.

American workers have lost their traction because of the Red Scare and purge of the unions in the 50's and the historical anomaly of the period 1950-1975. That's over and capitalism is returned to it's typical self. Necessity will force class consciousness upon workers when their backs are against the wall, which it seems the ruling class is intent upon. Not to worry, Marx is back in style again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Technically this is NOT capitalism either

It is consumerism and monopoly practice...

But we will need more than just classic Marx...give me some Eugene Debbs though.